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Author Topic: What does Enchantress and Royal Carriage do?  (Read 430 times)

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AJD

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Re: What does Enchantress and Royal Carriage do?
« Reply #25 on: September 30, 2018, 08:56:59 pm »
+1

(And, indeed, one could even make a case that "after you finish gaining" would mean after all when-gain instructions have been carried out, i.e., not the same as "when you gain".)

Uhm. Since "when you gain" is the same as "after you gain", I guess you're saying that the word "finish" makes a difference? So when you have gained a card, it's after you gained it, but you're still not finished gaining it? You're at a point when it's after you did something but you're still not finished doing it. I think you'll agree that it doesn't make much sense.

Specifically, I mean that this is an issue of aspect. English has different grammatical ways of indicating how the meaning of verb interacts with the flow of time. Using the simple present, as in "when you play a card", typically portrays the verb as having a punctual aspect. So in "when you play a card", 'playing' is something that is construed as taking place at a specific point in time (here, the point at which the card enters the play area), not something extended over a period of time.

Putting a verb in the gerund form with finish, however, implies that it has an imperfective aspect—i.e., that it refers to something that takes place over an extended period of time, with a beginning, duration, and end. In that case, the period of time over which the action of 'playing a card' takes place begins when you start moving it toward the play area, and ends after you finish executing the relevant abilities, at which time you're done playing the card and can play another card, or whatever.

So yes, I do think that the word finish makes a difference, because it forces an imperfective aspectual interpretation on the verb it governs, whereas the simple present encourages a punctual interpretation of it.
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Jeebus

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Re: What does Enchantress and Royal Carriage do?
« Reply #26 on: September 30, 2018, 10:45:26 pm »
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What you're saying is fine for English in general. The problem is that in this context "when" already means "after", so as far as I can see it's not relevant.

Donald X.

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Re: What does Enchantress and Royal Carriage do?
« Reply #27 on: September 30, 2018, 10:59:22 pm »
+1

Thanks for replying. So I think you're saying that RC doesn't care whether you followed the instructions or not, is that right? What mattered is that you actually played the card, not what happened when you were resolving it, correct?
Royal Carriage and Coin of the Realm don't care about Enchantress, yes. They only care that the process of playing an Action card reached its conclusion.
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AJD

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Re: What does Enchantress and Royal Carriage do?
« Reply #28 on: September 30, 2018, 11:06:15 pm »
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What you're saying is fine for English in general. The problem is that in this context "when" already means "after", so as far as I can see it's not relevant.

I don't follow.
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Jeebus

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Re: What does Enchantress and Royal Carriage do?
« Reply #29 on: September 30, 2018, 11:13:25 pm »
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What you're saying is fine for English in general. The problem is that in this context "when" already means "after", so as far as I can see it's not relevant.

I don't follow.

Ok. In Dominion and most similar games, "when" means "after". "When you gain" means after you're done gaining, and gaining entails moving the card. "When you buy" happens after buying, which entails non-physical act of updating Buys, Coins and potions, and taking Debt tokens. Playing entails announcing a card, putting it in play and resolving its play ability. You're not done until you've reached the end of that list. Saying that "when/after you play" happens after the second thing on that list is completely arbitrary.

Chris is me

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Re: What does Enchantress and Royal Carriage do?
« Reply #30 on: October 01, 2018, 07:07:31 am »
+1

What you're saying is fine for English in general. The problem is that in this context "when" already means "after", so as far as I can see it's not relevant.

I don't follow.

Ok. In Dominion and most similar games, "when" means "after". "When you gain" means after you're done gaining, and gaining entails moving the card. "When you buy" happens after buying, which entails non-physical act of updating Buys, Coins and potions, and taking Debt tokens. Playing entails announcing a card, putting it in play and resolving its play ability. You're not done until you've reached the end of that list. Saying that "when/after you play" happens after the second thing on that list is completely arbitrary.

It doesn't necessarily entail resolving its play ability. You're essentially asserting that when Enchantress is out, you don't actually play the first Action card you play in a turn. That's nonsense.

This is a super weird hill to die on. Nobody is hung up on this except you. I truly don't get why you think Action cards only count as having been played if you did exactly what was said on the card.
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Jeebus

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Re: What does Enchantress and Royal Carriage do?
« Reply #31 on: October 01, 2018, 09:34:31 am »
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It doesn't necessarily entail resolving its play ability. You're essentially asserting that when Enchantress is out, you don't actually play the first Action card you play in a turn. That's nonsense.

This is a super weird hill to die on. Nobody is hung up on this except you. I truly don't get why you think Action cards only count as having been played if you did exactly what was said on the card.

Where does all this hostility come from? Especially from people who are so confused about what they're railing against?

As it turns out, I have never asserted that. I have asserted the exact opposite from my very first post in this thread, and with more detailed examinations later: that you played the card whether you resolved its play ability or not. The part of the discussion you're replying to was purely about timing of "when you play" versus "after you finished playing".

I advise you to read more carefully.
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