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Author Topic: What does Enchantress and Royal Carriage do?  (Read 600 times)

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Jeebus

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What does Enchantress and Royal Carriage do?
« on: September 28, 2018, 02:38:57 pm »
0

We know that Enchantress doesn't change the actual play ability on the Enchanted card.

We know that Royal Carriage/Ghost/Citadel can replay the Enchanted card for its play ability.

But how can Royal Carriage do that?

I thought that Enchantress makes you get +1 Card and +1 Action instead of resolving the play ability of the Enchanted card. I also thought that Royal Carriage triggers after you resolve the play ability of an Action card. But the Enchanted action card's play ability was never resolved.

I guess my understanding of either Enchantress or Royal Carriage is wrong.

Enchantress: Could it be that the play ability is changed after all, not on the card, but for this play of the card? So that somehow, when you do "+1 Card and +1 Action", that counts as having resolved the card's play ability? I struggle to see how that can be correct.

Royal Carriage: Maybe the timing is not "after you resolve the play ability", but "after you finish playing", just like the card says. The Enchanted card was played, after all. So you play an Action card, then any Reactions etc. trigger, then you resolve the play ability (or not, if it's Enchanted), then you're finished playing it. Now Royal Carriage triggers. This seems more likely. The rulebook actually says that it's "after resolving a played Action card", but of course this just covers the normal cases.

crj

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Re: What does Enchantress and Royal Carriage do?
« Reply #1 on: September 28, 2018, 07:32:44 pm »
+4

Even without any clarifying notes, there's no problem here if you read exactly what the two cards say.

Enchantress: "the first time each other player plays an Action card on their turn, they get +1 Card and +1 Action instead of following its instructions." So they do play the Action card, but the effect of playing it is +1 Card, +1 Action. This doesn't change what the card says. When they finish doing +1 Card, +1 Action, they've finished playing the card.

Royal Carriage: "Directly after you finish playing an Action card..." you did finish playing the action card, so you can trigger Royal Carriage. When you replay the action, it still says what it usually says, so you get the normal effect of playing it.
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Jeebus

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Re: What does Enchantress and Royal Carriage do?
« Reply #2 on: September 29, 2018, 12:46:26 am »
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Even without any clarifying notes, there's no problem here if you read exactly what the two cards say.

Enchantress: "the first time each other player plays an Action card on their turn, they get +1 Card and +1 Action instead of following its instructions." So they do play the Action card, but the effect of playing it is +1 Card, +1 Action. This doesn't change what the card says. When they finish doing +1 Card, +1 Action, they've finished playing the card.

Royal Carriage: "Directly after you finish playing an Action card..." you did finish playing the action card, so you can trigger Royal Carriage. When you replay the action, it still says what it usually says, so you get the normal effect of playing it.

I think you're just saying exactly what I concluded, but a bit more inaccurately.

If we follow literally what the card says, Enchantress would trigger on when-play, like Reactions and Urchin - unless you follow this complicated explanation of setting up a later ability on when-play. But that's beside the point anyway. The point is that you never resolve the Enchanted card, and you're not addressing that. But I assume we're in agreement on how Enchantress works: You play the Enchanted card, but you don't resolve it.

Actually, we can't follow Royal Carriage literally either (although I implied that we could in my last post). We know that "when you play" is "after you play". Reactions now say "first", which is code for "after you play but before you resolve". Royal Carriage's "directly after you finish playing" literally would mean the same as "after you play", which is before you resolve. Of course we know from the rulebook that it means after you resolve*. And so we're back to my question. But as I said, if we take the rulebook explanation as inaccurate and interpret "directly after you finish playing" as "after you finished playing and possibly resolving", then it works.

*And don't forget that the first edition said "directly after resolving an Action", which only had the problem of not specifying that it only applied to the play ability. With that version it would be harder to support the interpretation that we are both suggesting. And the new version was intended to make the card clearer, not functionally different.
« Last Edit: September 29, 2018, 02:01:50 pm by Jeebus »
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Ingix

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Re: What does Enchantress and Royal Carriage do?
« Reply #3 on: September 30, 2018, 11:51:12 am »
+1

It's always hard to answer such questions when there is only one card that does a special thing (Enchantress).

The way I see it, "after playing" is after the effect has resolved, which usually means after following the cards on-play instructions, but maybe something else happened when Enchantress is involved. I don't know why you think that a card under Enchantress was not resolved, the resolution consisted however not of following the cards on-play instructios, that was replaced by samething else.

The real formal problem, as you noted, is the cards that try to do something after (for a better term) an Attack is 'announced', but before it resolves.
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Donald X.

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Re: What does Enchantress and Royal Carriage do?
« Reply #4 on: September 30, 2018, 12:29:08 pm »
+1

Even without any clarifying notes, there's no problem here if you read exactly what the two cards say.

Enchantress: "the first time each other player plays an Action card on their turn, they get +1 Card and +1 Action instead of following its instructions." So they do play the Action card, but the effect of playing it is +1 Card, +1 Action. This doesn't change what the card says. When they finish doing +1 Card, +1 Action, they've finished playing the card.

Royal Carriage: "Directly after you finish playing an Action card..." you did finish playing the action card, so you can trigger Royal Carriage. When you replay the action, it still says what it usually says, so you get the normal effect of playing it.
This is how I see it.
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GendoIkari

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Re: What does Enchantress and Royal Carriage do?
« Reply #5 on: September 30, 2018, 01:08:11 pm »
+2

Royal Carriage: Maybe the timing is not "after you resolve the play ability", but "after you finish playing", just like the card says.

This is a super weird sentence. It boils down to "maybe the card does what it actually says it does, and not some other thing that's different than what it says it does." Why is this different than saying "Maybe Throne Room doesn't actually double the effect of playing a card, but rather causes you to play the card twice, just like the card says."
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Jeebus

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Re: What does Enchantress and Royal Carriage do?
« Reply #6 on: September 30, 2018, 03:26:25 pm »
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Royal Carriage: Maybe the timing is not "after you resolve the play ability", but "after you finish playing", just like the card says.

This is a super weird sentence. It boils down to "maybe the card does what it actually says it does, and not some other thing that's different than what it says it does." Why is this different than saying "Maybe Throne Room doesn't actually double the effect of playing a card, but rather causes you to play the card twice, just like the card says."

Because I was not being very accurate and assuming that I would be understood from the context. (Clearly not.) I was going by the idea that RC triggers on resolving a card, like the 1E card says and the rulebook still says, but then saying that maybe it instead triggers on playing a card - but not the when-play trigger on 1E Reactions (which is the same as but phrased differently than 2E Reactions), which is before you resolve, but rather after you resolve, whether you resolve or not. I'm writing another post to make this clearer.

Jeebus

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Re: What does Enchantress and Royal Carriage do?
« Reply #7 on: September 30, 2018, 03:34:05 pm »
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I wrote a much longer threatise on this, but I'll spare you and stick to a shortened version:

1E Royal Carriage: directly after resolving an Action
2E Royal Carriage: directly after you finish playing an Action

Ingix asks why the Enchanted card was not resolved. According to Donald (in another thread), Enchantress triggers right as you're about to resolve the card, and then it makes you do something else instead of resolving it. The other thing (+1 Card and +1 Action) is not the Enchanted card's play ability; compare with Ironworks/Trader. Also, Donald seems to be supporting that interpretation here. So let's go with that for now.

So then we need to interpret RC as triggering on playing a card whether you resolve it or not, but still triggering after you would have resolved it. This is somewhat clearer in RC 2E, but since it's pretty safe to assume that RC was not intended to be functionally changed in the 2E, we still need to interpret "directly after resolving" as not triggering on resolving (which is pretty far away from "reading exactly what the cards say" by the way, although everybody loves easy answers). If it triggered on resolving, it would not work; compare with Trader/Watchtower.

In any case, the answer seems to be what I already said: RC really triggers when/after you play a card, where play means announce, put in play and resolve, but not necessarily any of those if they are cancelled. (Of course we already knew that it counts as "playing" even when you can't put the card in play.)

crj

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Re: What does Enchantress and Royal Carriage do?
« Reply #8 on: September 30, 2018, 03:54:54 pm »
+3

Enchantress triggers right as you're about to resolve the card, and then it makes you do something else instead of resolving it.
No, you still resolve it. Enchantress changes how you resolve it: you "get +1 Card and +1 Action instead of following its instructions"
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GendoIkari

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Re: What does Enchantress and Royal Carriage do?
« Reply #9 on: September 30, 2018, 03:56:57 pm »
0

Enchantress triggers right as you're about to resolve the card, and then it makes you do something else instead of resolving it.
No, you still resolve it. Enchantress changes how you resolve it: you "get +1 Card and +1 Action instead of following its instructions"

Definitely this. Enchantress doesn't say anything about not resolving the card.
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Jeebus

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Re: What does Enchantress and Royal Carriage do?
« Reply #10 on: September 30, 2018, 04:10:03 pm »
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Enchantress triggers right as you're about to resolve the card, and then it makes you do something else instead of resolving it.
No, you still resolve it. Enchantress changes how you resolve it: you "get +1 Card and +1 Action instead of following its instructions"

Well, that's not what you wrote before. You specified that the reason RC works, is that it triggers on playing, not resolving. And that's what Donald supported.

There's really no way of communicating about this stuff without being extremely precise. I'm realizing that your first post pretty much added nothing, since, just like you wrote in it, you just repeated what the cards say without giving any clarifications of what you meant with those phrases. For instance, the phrase playing a card, in this context, can be interpreted in several ways.

As to why I think you don't resolve the Enchanted card: As I said, compare with Ironworks/Trader. How do you explain a difference between these two interactions?
« Last Edit: September 30, 2018, 04:12:43 pm by Jeebus »
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Jeebus

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Re: What does Enchantress and Royal Carriage do?
« Reply #11 on: September 30, 2018, 04:16:09 pm »
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Enchantress doesn't say anything about not resolving the card.

According to how I see it, "following its instructions" = "resolving it". That's the very definition of resolving.
What do you think is the difference?

crj

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Re: What does Enchantress and Royal Carriage do?
« Reply #12 on: September 30, 2018, 04:22:15 pm »
0

Well, that's not what you wrote before. You specified that the reason RC works, is that it triggers on playing, not resolving. And that's what Donald supported.
It does not trigger on playing, and I did not write that it triggers on playing:
Royal Carriage: "Directly after you finish playing an Action card..." you did finish playing the action card, so you can trigger Royal Carriage.

I confined myself to 2E terminology. But the reasoning is identical if I use 1E terminology:
Quote from: Alternate 1E universe
Royal Carriage: "Directly after resolving an Action..." you did resolve the Action, so you can trigger Royal Carriage.
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Jeebus

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Re: What does Enchantress and Royal Carriage do?
« Reply #13 on: September 30, 2018, 05:09:54 pm »
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Well, that's not what you wrote before. You specified that the reason RC works, is that it triggers on playing, not resolving. And that's what Donald supported.
It does not trigger on playing, and I did not write that it triggers on playing:
Royal Carriage: "Directly after you finish playing an Action card..." you did finish playing the action card, so you can trigger Royal Carriage.

"Directly after you finish playing" is identical to "when you play". (Compare "directly after you finish gaining" and "when you gain".) This is more complicated, but I was trying not to make a huge post with all the subtleties. This is what I get. Let's leave that aside.

The point is that you wrote that RC triggers as a result of playing, not as a result of resolving. You wrote, "So they do play the Action card". Importantly, you did not write, "So they do resolve the Action card".

crj

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Re: What does Enchantress and Royal Carriage do?
« Reply #14 on: September 30, 2018, 05:20:57 pm »
+2

"Directly after you finish playing" is identical to "when you play".
Of course it's not!

If you're even confused about that, no wonder nothing else is making any sense to you.
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Jeebus

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Re: What does Enchantress and Royal Carriage do?
« Reply #15 on: September 30, 2018, 05:31:23 pm »
0

"Directly after you finish playing" is identical to "when you play".
Of course it's not!

If you're even confused about that, no wonder nothing else is making any sense to you.

As literally read (as you like to do) it is identical. (If you don't agree, address my comparison to gaining.) But as I said, let's leave it aside. It was just to explain what I meant with "trigger on playing". I rephrased it anyway.

The next paragraph I wrote, the one you haven't replied to, was addressing your point.

GendoIkari

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Re: What does Enchantress and Royal Carriage do?
« Reply #16 on: September 30, 2018, 05:41:02 pm »
0

"Directly after you finish playing" is identical to "when you play".
Of course it's not!

If you're even confused about that, no wonder nothing else is making any sense to you.

I'm pretty sure he's right about that part... Dominion "when" triggers have always been "after the thing is done". The exception being when the word "first" is used, like in reactions. In those cases, it changes meaning to some sort interruption in the normal timing that causes something to happen as a new step in the "playing" process.
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GendoIkari

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Re: What does Enchantress and Royal Carriage do?
« Reply #17 on: September 30, 2018, 05:43:21 pm »
0

Enchantress doesn't say anything about not resolving the card.

According to how I see it, "following its instructions" = "resolving it". That's the very definition of resolving.
What do you think is the difference?

As I see it, the usual way that you resolve a card is to follow its instructions. Enchantress gives you a new way to resolve it.

I see this the same as how similar things work in Magic. The usual way to deal with a player taking damage is for them to lose life. But when a source has Infect, then instead of losing life, they take poison counters.

The usual way to deal with the instruction to resolve something is to follow its instructions. But if Enchantress was played, then instead of following its instructions, you follow these new instructions instead. The steps you take to resolve it have changed.
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crj

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Re: What does Enchantress and Royal Carriage do?
« Reply #18 on: September 30, 2018, 06:31:42 pm »
0

"Directly after you finish playing" is identical to "when you play".
Of course it's not!
[...]

I'm pretty sure he's right about that part
If Gendolkari were right about that, pretty much all the special Treasures would have their effect after you'd finished playing them.
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GendoIkari

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Re: What does Enchantress and Royal Carriage do?
« Reply #19 on: September 30, 2018, 07:19:54 pm »
+1

"Directly after you finish playing" is identical to "when you play".
Of course it's not!
[...]

I'm pretty sure he's right about that part
If Gendolkari were right about that, pretty much all the special Treasures would have their effect after you'd finished playing them.

All the times that treasures say "when you play this" are not "when-play" triggers. Kind of like how old Nomad Camp said "when you gain", but it was just imprecise language, not a when-gain trigger.
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AJD

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Re: What does Enchantress and Royal Carriage do?
« Reply #20 on: September 30, 2018, 07:26:09 pm »
0

"Directly after you finish playing" is identical to "when you play".
Of course it's not!

If you're even confused about that, no wonder nothing else is making any sense to you.

(And, indeed, one could even make a case that "after you finish gaining" would mean after all when-gain instructions have been carried out, i.e., not the same as "when you gain".)
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Jeebus

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Re: What does Enchantress and Royal Carriage do?
« Reply #21 on: September 30, 2018, 07:32:45 pm »
0

All the times that treasures say "when you play this" are not "when-play" triggers. Kind of like how old Nomad Camp said "when you gain", but it was just imprecise language, not a when-gain trigger.

And of course this is another thing I dealt with in the much longer treatise I wrote about this, that I decided not to post. And I still won't, because nobody would read it, just like I think almost nobody actually read carefully my three longer posts; they just skimmed them. That's why we get semi-nonsensical answers.

Enchantress doesn't say anything about not resolving the card.

According to how I see it, "following its instructions" = "resolving it". That's the very definition of resolving.
What do you think is the difference?

As I see it, the usual way that you resolve a card is to follow its instructions. Enchantress gives you a new way to resolve it.

I see this the same as how similar things work in Magic. The usual way to deal with a player taking damage is for them to lose life. But when a source has Infect, then instead of losing life, they take poison counters.

The usual way to deal with the instruction to resolve something is to follow its instructions. But if Enchantress was played, then instead of following its instructions, you follow these new instructions instead. The steps you take to resolve it have changed.

Well, thanks for actually adding something to the discussion. I see how it's possible to view it that way, but I think it creates another layer of abstraction that seems a bit unnecessary: Resolving a card is not the same as following its instructions, but involves that as its only constituent part. It seems a lot simpler and cleaner to say that they are the same thing.

But as I said, it could be that you're right, that my original notion of Enchantress is what's wrong. It seemed like Donald was supporting the idea that it was Royal Carriage, but it's hard to tell.
« Last Edit: September 30, 2018, 07:39:57 pm by Jeebus »
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Jeebus

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Re: What does Enchantress and Royal Carriage do?
« Reply #22 on: September 30, 2018, 07:39:03 pm »
0

(And, indeed, one could even make a case that "after you finish gaining" would mean after all when-gain instructions have been carried out, i.e., not the same as "when you gain".)

Uhm. Since "when you gain" is the same as "after you gain", I guess you're saying that the word "finish" makes a difference? So when you have gained a card, it's after you gained it, but you're still not finished gaining it? You're at a point when it's after you did something but you're still not finished doing it. I think you'll agree that it doesn't make much sense.

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Re: What does Enchantress and Royal Carriage do?
« Reply #23 on: September 30, 2018, 08:23:09 pm »
+2

And I still won't, because nobody would read it, just like I think almost nobody actually read carefully my three longer posts; they just skimmed them. That's why we get semi-nonsensical answers.
Hey I caught this part at least.

I don't know what I said in the past. I will say new things.

I am going to say this without using the terminology, because I don't want definitions of terminology to stand in the way of communicating functionality. It may be that all you care about is those definitions, but, I am explaining this interaction, not defining terms.

Normally when you play an Action card it does some stuff. It may also have stuff it does at other times, like Moat's reaction or Highway's while-in-play; we aren't concerned with those now but I haven't forgotten that they might be there. Anyway. You play an Action card, it does some stuff.

Enchantress says, don't do that stuff, for this one card played this one time, instead +1 Card +1 Action. The card is otherwise unaffected. The playing of the card is otherwise unaffected.

Royal Carriage says, after you're done dealing with having played an Action card, not meaning you're done with stuff like calling Royal Carriage ha ha, you get a chance to call this and well you know, what Royal Carriage does. I mean Royal Carriage isn't necessary here, it's exactly the same for Coin of the Realm.

Maybe someone is thinking, but Enchantress changed what the card did so the card never did it so Royal Carriage can't be called. No. That's not what happens. Royal Carriage doesn't say "At the point at which you'd be done following those instructions if only you'd followed those instructions" or "after you follow the instructions or do some other crazy thing like Enchantress," but that's okay, that game is unplayable.

"In-between Action plays" is a hard-to-phrase concept. I was not happy with the phrasing on Royal Carriage, changed it for the new printings, and still it seems like it could be better. I am not putting in the work here today but note that Citadel has a similar timing and yet a much different phrasing.
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Jeebus

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Re: What does Enchantress and Royal Carriage do?
« Reply #24 on: September 30, 2018, 08:43:29 pm »
0

Royal Carriage says, after you're done dealing with having played an Action card, not meaning you're done with stuff like calling Royal Carriage ha ha, you get a chance to call this and well you know, what Royal Carriage does. I mean Royal Carriage isn't necessary here, it's exactly the same for Coin of the Realm.

Maybe someone is thinking, but Enchantress changed what the card did so the card never did it so Royal Carriage can't be called. No. That's not what happens. Royal Carriage doesn't say "At the point at which you'd be done following those instructions if only you'd followed those instructions" or "after you follow the instructions or do some other crazy thing like Enchantress," but that's okay, that game is unplayable.

Thanks for replying. So I think you're saying that RC doesn't care whether you followed the instructions or not, is that right? What mattered is that you actually played the card, not what happened when you were resolving it, correct?

So you can call RC after you're done dealing with having played the card. That's when you're normally done following the instructions. (Playing = announcing, putting in play, resolving.)

"In-between Action plays" is a hard-to-phrase concept. I was not happy with the phrasing on Royal Carriage, changed it for the new printings, and still it seems like it could be better. I am not putting in the work here today but note that Citadel has a similar timing and yet a much different phrasing.

Yeah, concluding that Citadel has the same timing was exactly what made me revisit this.

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Re: What does Enchantress and Royal Carriage do?
« Reply #25 on: September 30, 2018, 08:56:59 pm »
+1

(And, indeed, one could even make a case that "after you finish gaining" would mean after all when-gain instructions have been carried out, i.e., not the same as "when you gain".)

Uhm. Since "when you gain" is the same as "after you gain", I guess you're saying that the word "finish" makes a difference? So when you have gained a card, it's after you gained it, but you're still not finished gaining it? You're at a point when it's after you did something but you're still not finished doing it. I think you'll agree that it doesn't make much sense.

Specifically, I mean that this is an issue of aspect. English has different grammatical ways of indicating how the meaning of verb interacts with the flow of time. Using the simple present, as in "when you play a card", typically portrays the verb as having a punctual aspect. So in "when you play a card", 'playing' is something that is construed as taking place at a specific point in time (here, the point at which the card enters the play area), not something extended over a period of time.

Putting a verb in the gerund form with finish, however, implies that it has an imperfective aspect—i.e., that it refers to something that takes place over an extended period of time, with a beginning, duration, and end. In that case, the period of time over which the action of 'playing a card' takes place begins when you start moving it toward the play area, and ends after you finish executing the relevant abilities, at which time you're done playing the card and can play another card, or whatever.

So yes, I do think that the word finish makes a difference, because it forces an imperfective aspectual interpretation on the verb it governs, whereas the simple present encourages a punctual interpretation of it.
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Jeebus

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Re: What does Enchantress and Royal Carriage do?
« Reply #26 on: September 30, 2018, 10:45:26 pm »
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What you're saying is fine for English in general. The problem is that in this context "when" already means "after", so as far as I can see it's not relevant.

Donald X.

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Re: What does Enchantress and Royal Carriage do?
« Reply #27 on: September 30, 2018, 10:59:22 pm »
+1

Thanks for replying. So I think you're saying that RC doesn't care whether you followed the instructions or not, is that right? What mattered is that you actually played the card, not what happened when you were resolving it, correct?
Royal Carriage and Coin of the Realm don't care about Enchantress, yes. They only care that the process of playing an Action card reached its conclusion.
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AJD

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Re: What does Enchantress and Royal Carriage do?
« Reply #28 on: September 30, 2018, 11:06:15 pm »
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What you're saying is fine for English in general. The problem is that in this context "when" already means "after", so as far as I can see it's not relevant.

I don't follow.
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Jeebus

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Re: What does Enchantress and Royal Carriage do?
« Reply #29 on: September 30, 2018, 11:13:25 pm »
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What you're saying is fine for English in general. The problem is that in this context "when" already means "after", so as far as I can see it's not relevant.

I don't follow.

Ok. In Dominion and most similar games, "when" means "after". "When you gain" means after you're done gaining, and gaining entails moving the card. "When you buy" happens after buying, which entails non-physical act of updating Buys, Coins and potions, and taking Debt tokens. Playing entails announcing a card, putting it in play and resolving its play ability. You're not done until you've reached the end of that list. Saying that "when/after you play" happens after the second thing on that list is completely arbitrary.

Chris is me

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Re: What does Enchantress and Royal Carriage do?
« Reply #30 on: October 01, 2018, 07:07:31 am »
+1

What you're saying is fine for English in general. The problem is that in this context "when" already means "after", so as far as I can see it's not relevant.

I don't follow.

Ok. In Dominion and most similar games, "when" means "after". "When you gain" means after you're done gaining, and gaining entails moving the card. "When you buy" happens after buying, which entails non-physical act of updating Buys, Coins and potions, and taking Debt tokens. Playing entails announcing a card, putting it in play and resolving its play ability. You're not done until you've reached the end of that list. Saying that "when/after you play" happens after the second thing on that list is completely arbitrary.

It doesn't necessarily entail resolving its play ability. You're essentially asserting that when Enchantress is out, you don't actually play the first Action card you play in a turn. That's nonsense.

This is a super weird hill to die on. Nobody is hung up on this except you. I truly don't get why you think Action cards only count as having been played if you did exactly what was said on the card.
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Jeebus

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Re: What does Enchantress and Royal Carriage do?
« Reply #31 on: October 01, 2018, 09:34:31 am »
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It doesn't necessarily entail resolving its play ability. You're essentially asserting that when Enchantress is out, you don't actually play the first Action card you play in a turn. That's nonsense.

This is a super weird hill to die on. Nobody is hung up on this except you. I truly don't get why you think Action cards only count as having been played if you did exactly what was said on the card.

Where does all this hostility come from? Especially from people who are so confused about what they're railing against?

As it turns out, I have never asserted that. I have asserted the exact opposite from my very first post in this thread, and with more detailed examinations later: that you played the card whether you resolved its play ability or not. The part of the discussion you're replying to was purely about timing of "when you play" versus "after you finished playing".

I advise you to read more carefully.
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