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Author Topic: What do Sewers and Tomb do when you trash multiple cards?  (Read 603 times)

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infangthief

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What do Sewers and Tomb do when you trash multiple cards?
« on: September 28, 2018, 03:54:17 am »
0

I understand that trashing cards is not done one at a time, but all at once.

Eg you play Steward, you choose to trash 2 cards, then you trash them both together, then resolve any abilities that have been triggered.

So, in that Steward example, how many times has 'when you trash a card' been triggered? Once or twice? Does Tomb give you 1VP or 2VP? Does Sewers allow you to trash one or two more cards?

I mean, intuitively, I'm sure the answer ought to be 'twice'. But I feel that may be inconsistent with the rule that you don't trash cards one at a time.
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Donald X.

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Re: What do Sewers and Tomb do when you trash multiple cards?
« Reply #1 on: September 28, 2018, 04:42:17 am »
+1

Sewers triggers twice if you trash two cards to a Steward.
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infangthief

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Re: What do Sewers and Tomb do when you trash multiple cards?
« Reply #2 on: September 28, 2018, 08:11:17 am »
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Thank you sane Donald.
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greybirdofprey

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Re: What do Sewers and Tomb do when you trash multiple cards?
« Reply #3 on: September 28, 2018, 09:04:05 am »
+1

I don't think it matters but would it be Steward trash - Steward trash - Sewers trash - Sewers trash or Steward trash - Sewers trash - Steward trash - Sewers trash? Or can you do both?
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infangthief

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Re: What do Sewers and Tomb do when you trash multiple cards?
« Reply #4 on: September 28, 2018, 09:05:36 am »
+1

I don't think it matters but would it be Steward trash - Steward trash - Sewers trash - Sewers trash or Steward trash - Sewers trash - Steward trash - Sewers trash? Or can you do both?
Man, we're good at thinking up questions on this forum ;)
It's got to be trash 2 cards for Steward, then trash (up to) 2 cards for Sewers. The cards that say 'when you trash this' don't trigger until both cards have been trashed, so it would be strange if 'when you trash a card' had a different timing.

[EDIT: And yes it does matter. If the two cards trashed by Steward are both Cultists, then doing the Sewers trashing last gives you more choice of which cards you trash in the Sewers.]
« Last Edit: October 01, 2018, 04:36:36 am by infangthief »
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Jeebus

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Re: What do Sewers and Tomb do when you trash multiple cards?
« Reply #5 on: September 28, 2018, 10:53:08 am »
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Right, it's in the rulebooks that when you trash several cards, "when-trash" stuff is resolved afterwards.

infangthief

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Re: What do Sewers and Tomb do when you trash multiple cards?
« Reply #6 on: September 28, 2018, 11:57:42 am »
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So 'when-trash' stuff is resolved after all the cards have been trashed, and yet it seems that the number of 'when you trash a card' triggers is somehow equal to the number of cards that were trashed.

Does that make sense?
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Doom_Shark

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Re: What do Sewers and Tomb do when you trash multiple cards?
« Reply #7 on: September 28, 2018, 11:59:19 am »
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So 'when-trash' stuff is resolved after all the cards have been trashed, and yet it seems that the number of 'when you trash a card' triggers is somehow equal to the number of cards that were trashed.

Does that make sense?

Yes. You are exactly right
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Dwhit

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Re: What do Sewers and Tomb do when you trash multiple cards?
« Reply #8 on: September 28, 2018, 12:29:27 pm »
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If I trash my last two cards in hand with a trading post can sewers then trash the silver I gain to hand?
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k1511asd

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Re: What do Sewers and Tomb do when you trash multiple cards?
« Reply #9 on: September 28, 2018, 12:44:23 pm »
+1

If I trash my last two cards in hand with a trading post can sewers then trash the silver I gain to hand?
No, sewers trigger first, then gaining silver.
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infangthief

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Re: What do Sewers and Tomb do when you trash multiple cards?
« Reply #10 on: October 01, 2018, 01:34:02 am »
0

So 'when-trash' stuff is resolved after all the cards have been trashed, and yet it seems that the number of 'when you trash a card' triggers is somehow equal to the number of cards that were trashed.

Does that make sense?

Yes. You are exactly right

My real question is: how does that make sense?
I can think of two possible explanations:

1.
- "Trash 2 cards" means: Stop handling triggers. Trash a card. Trash a card. Resume handling triggers.
- "When you trash a card" is unambiguous.

2.
- "Trash 2 cards" means: Trash 2 cards (all at once).
- "When you trash a card" means: When you trash any number of cards, do this per card trashed.

What do you think? Is it one of those explanations? Or is there a better explanation?
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Jeebus

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Re: What do Sewers and Tomb do when you trash multiple cards?
« Reply #11 on: October 01, 2018, 02:03:19 am »
+2

My real question is: how does that make sense?
I can think of two possible explanations:

1.
- "Trash 2 cards" means: Stop handling triggers. Trash a card. Trash a card. Resume handling triggers.
- "When you trash a card" is unambiguous.

2.
- "Trash 2 cards" means: Trash 2 cards (all at once).
- "When you trash a card" means: When you trash any number of cards, do this per card trashed.

What do you think? Is it one of those explanations? Or is there a better explanation?

I think you're pretty close on 2. The rulebook says that you trash all cards at once, then resolve any triggered things. It's in Dark Ages at least, I can't check it now, but you can look it up.

infangthief

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Re: What do Sewers and Tomb do when you trash multiple cards?
« Reply #12 on: October 01, 2018, 04:32:52 am »
0

Great. I'm happy with that, thank you Jeebus.

So to explore the idea a bit further, suppose I have a cube on Sewers and I play Steward, choose trashing, and trash Cultist and Hunting Grounds (both at once). Then there are three triggered effects:

A. Cultist: +3 Cards.
B. Hunting Grounds: Gain a Duchy or 3 Estates.
C. Sewers: Do this twice: You may trash a card from your hand.

Now I can choose which order I resolve these in. A B C, C A B, or whatever. I'm happy if that's the conclusion we reach.

But I'm aware that we are far from consensus on the Sewers effect here. Here are some different options:

1. Steward triggers single effect; C. Sewers: Do this twice: You may trash a card from your hand.
2. Steward triggers single effect; C. Sewers: You may trash up to 2 cards from your hand.
3. Steward triggers two separate effects; C. Sewers1: You may trash a card from your hand; D. Sewers2: You may trash a card from your hand.

Option 1 would be my preferred one, seems to be compatible with other things.
Option 2 could also work.
Option 3 is maybe the most intuitive one, and is the one implied by Donald in his initial reply, but I cannot (yet) see how this can be compatible with the idea of Steward trashing both cards 'at once'.

It matters because option 3 would allow you to resolve the triggered effects in the order C A B D, whereas option 1 would not allow that.
« Last Edit: October 01, 2018, 04:40:07 am by infangthief »
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Donald X.

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Re: What do Sewers and Tomb do when you trash multiple cards?
« Reply #13 on: October 01, 2018, 04:45:19 am »
0

3. Steward triggers two separate effects; C. Sewers1: You may trash a card from your hand; D. Sewers2: You may trash a card from your hand.

Option 3 is maybe the most intuitive one, and is the one implied by Donald in his initial reply, but I cannot (yet) see how this can be compatible with the idea of Steward trashing both cards 'at once'.
I don't know what to tell you; they're compatible.

Quoting the wiki quoting the Dark Ages rulebook: "When two or more cards are trashed at the same time, as with Count, first trash them all, then pick an order to resolve things that happen due to trashing them."
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crj

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Re: What do Sewers and Tomb do when you trash multiple cards?
« Reply #14 on: October 01, 2018, 09:03:38 am »
0

Hmm.

I think about this slightly differently, which leads me to a slightly different question. When you trash multiple cards at once, I see two possibilities:
  • You deal with the trashed cards in an order you choose. For each of them, you deal with its on-trash triggers in an order you choose.
  • You deal with all of the on-trash triggers for all of the cards in an order you choose.
This can matter. As a specimen question, you have Sewers and you use Steward to trash two Rats. Are you allowed to draw both cards before you trash anything via Sewers?
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Jeebus

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Re: What do Sewers and Tomb do when you trash multiple cards?
« Reply #15 on: October 01, 2018, 11:38:32 am »
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Option 3 is maybe the most intuitive one, and is the one implied by Donald in his initial reply, but I cannot (yet) see how this can be compatible with the idea of Steward trashing both cards 'at once'.

The rule is that you trash all cards at once. Nothing can interrupt in the middle.
We assume that "when you trash a card" doesn't mean "when you trash exactly one card", because otherwise it would say that (compare with other cards).
So it has to trigger even when you trash more than one card.

Then the question is (and this questioned has been asked - probably by me - and answered before): Does it now trigger just once, or for each trashed card? The answer is "for each", which is also implied in the phrasing - "when you trash a card": For each card you trash, do this.

So maybe it helps to think about it this way: "When you trash a card..." is short for "When you trash any cards, for each trashed card..."

Jeebus

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Re: What do Sewers and Tomb do when you trash multiple cards?
« Reply #16 on: October 01, 2018, 11:42:30 am »
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This can matter. As a specimen question, you have Sewers and you use Steward to trash two Rats. Are you allowed to draw both cards before you trash anything via Sewers?

Don't be confused. The answer is there if you look for it. Infangthief detailed it very well and Donald replied.

infangthief

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Re: What do Sewers and Tomb do when you trash multiple cards?
« Reply #17 on: October 02, 2018, 09:28:49 am »
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So maybe it helps to think about it this way: "When you trash a card..." is short for "When you trash any cards, for each trashed card..."
Thinking about it that way gives you a single trigger of Sewers during which multiple cards can be trashed (option 1), which is different from triggering Sewers multiple times (option 3).

Anyway, I'm happy to take the designer's word for it that Sewers triggers multiple times. My understanding of triggering subtleties might need a bit of tuning, but I can cope with that.

You know what? I enjoyed playing with Sewers during the preview weekend, I think it is one of my favourite card-shaped things; it's a simple concept that has far-reaching effects.
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Jeebus

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Re: What do Sewers and Tomb do when you trash multiple cards?
« Reply #18 on: October 02, 2018, 07:32:52 pm »
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So maybe it helps to think about it this way: "When you trash a card..." is short for "When you trash any cards, for each trashed card..."
Thinking about it that way gives you a single trigger of Sewers during which multiple cards can be trashed (option 1), which is different from triggering Sewers multiple times (option 3).

You're right, that would not work.

It seems that you were closer with your explanation 1: you effectively stop handling triggers while you trash. We can perhaps view this as another way of phrasing the rule that "you trash all cards at once" (or as I said, "nothing can interrupt in the middle").

Dark Ages says: When two or more cards are trashed at the same time, first trash them all, then pick an order to resolve things that happen due to trashing them.

So we can rephrase it this way: When two or more cards are trashed at the same time, first trash them all without resolving any triggered abilities, then resolve all triggered abilities afterwards.

And discarding cards works the same way, while gaining is different: you gain each card separately.

crj

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Re: What do Sewers and Tomb do when you trash multiple cards?
« Reply #19 on: October 02, 2018, 08:28:03 pm »
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while gaining is different: you gain each card separately.
I've never seen that stated anywhere, actually.

(Specimen question: when you play Treasure Trove with Watchtower in hand, can you choose to top-deck both the Copper and Gold in either order?)
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Jeebus

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Re: What do Sewers and Tomb do when you trash multiple cards?
« Reply #20 on: October 02, 2018, 08:55:32 pm »
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while gaining is different: you gain each card separately.
I've never seen that stated anywhere, actually.

(Specimen question: when you play Treasure Trove with Watchtower in hand, can you choose to top-deck both the Copper and Gold in either order?)

Yet I have seen it stated many times. Here's one.

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Re: What do Sewers and Tomb do when you trash multiple cards?
« Reply #21 on: October 02, 2018, 09:54:35 pm »
+1

while gaining is different: you gain each card separately.
I've never seen that stated anywhere, actually.

(Specimen question: when you play Treasure Trove with Watchtower in hand, can you choose to top-deck both the Copper and Gold in either order?)

Answer to the Treasure Trove question: no you can't; you gain the Gold first (and can top-deck it) and then the Copper (and can top-deck it).
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crj

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Re: What do Sewers and Tomb do when you trash multiple cards?
« Reply #22 on: October 02, 2018, 10:05:30 pm »
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Yet I have seen it stated many times. Here's one.
That only addresses the specimen, not the actual issue.

Now what about Cache, or Treasure Map, or Trusty Steed, or whatever, where the cards aren't listed in a particular order?

It would be unfortunate if things like Watchtower lost track of the earlier gains because they got covered by later ones!
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Donald X.

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Re: What do Sewers and Tomb do when you trash multiple cards?
« Reply #23 on: October 03, 2018, 12:17:13 am »
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Yet I have seen it stated many times. Here's one.
That only addresses the specimen, not the actual issue.

Now what about Cache, or Treasure Map, or Trusty Steed, or whatever, where the cards aren't listed in a particular order?

It would be unfortunate if things like Watchtower lost track of the earlier gains because they got covered by later ones!
My first guess is that you are joking, which doesn't require an answer, hooray.
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crj

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Re: What do Sewers and Tomb do when you trash multiple cards?
« Reply #24 on: October 03, 2018, 10:08:26 am »
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I'm not joking.

I mean, clearly the sensible behaviour would be that Watchtower worked in the intuitive way when you gain Cache, letting you, for example, topdeck the Cache and trash the two Coppers. But I'm not quite sure that's a consistent interpretation, unless there is indeed an explicit ruling that when you gain cards you handle the on-gain effects of each one (in an order of your choosing) before gaining the next, even when told to "gain 2 Coppers" as a single instruction.

However, you've previously given the example that if you gain Border Village, then choose to gain a Duchy before reacting with Watchtower, Watchtower then loses track of the Border Village and can no longer do anything about that gain. So by my understanding if you did gain both Coppers before applying on-gain triggers for either, Watchtower would, lose track of the underneath one?
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Re: What do Sewers and Tomb do when you trash multiple cards?
« Reply #26 on: October 03, 2018, 04:29:21 pm »
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OK. It makes pragmatic sense, but I can't help feeling it represents a distressing lack of consistency.
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