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Author Topic: Renaissance Previews #5: Fair, Silos, Citadel, Star Chart, Sewers, Innovation  (Read 19366 times)

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Oyvind

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Re: Renaissance Previews #5: Fair, Silos, Citadel, Star Chart, Sewers, Innovation
« Reply #75 on: September 28, 2018, 11:05:08 am »
0

I had personally wondered why it wasn't "At the start of your turn, reveal any number of Coppers, discard them, and draw that many cards.", which seems to fit the Dominion standard, but that does add 3 characters.

Discarding is from your hand by default, but revealing is not. So it would have had to be, "Reveal any number of Coppers from your hand, discard them, then draw that many cards."

Besides, what he just said! :)
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TheOthin

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Re: Renaissance Previews #5: Fair, Silos, Citadel, Star Chart, Sewers, Innovation
« Reply #76 on: September 28, 2018, 11:11:09 am »
+1

After thinking about it for a bit, I'm wondering about the decision-making process regarding these. Since you can only buy these once, it seems like it will be a no-brainer to get them every game (Except Sewer with no trashing and other obvious exceptions). The effects are either never harmful or optional, and you don't have to pick a good "target" like inheritance. I suppose there's decisions in when to get them, but I think even there the answer is usually "as soon as possible." In the end, are they a little too simple?
I don't think so. Of course something like Silos is a no-brainer in a game without Copper trashing but what if there is moderate trashing or sifting? Then it is not that simple.
I agree that the Projects are simple, too simple for my irrelevant preferences, but this doesn't imply that they don't lead to tricky decisions.

I agree; I think only Star Chart and Fair are likely to be must-buy. Citadel could easily be skippable in a Province game, considering the cost. Sewers and Silos are skippable with good trashing cards.

Innovation seems tricky to make use of if the only way to gain actions in a game is by buying them. Actions that give money or buys could work, but that would only apply on the turn you buy them, so paying 6 for that effect isn't necessarily a must-buy.

Overall, I suspect these add good variety, without making every game with Projects necessarily focus on the Projects.

Fair is important in some games, but sometimes there are better ways to get all the buys you need.
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Uiteindelijk

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Re: Renaissance Previews #5: Fair, Silos, Citadel, Star Chart, Sewers, Innovation
« Reply #77 on: September 28, 2018, 11:24:29 am »
+1

I had personally wondered why it wasn't "At the start of your turn, reveal any number of Coppers, discard them, and draw that many cards.", which seems to fit the Dominion standard, but that does add 3 characters.

Discarding is from your hand by default, but revealing is not. So it would have had to be, "Reveal any number of Coppers from your hand, discard them, then draw that many cards."

Besides, what he just said! :)

Yes, both are very good points that I hadn't considered.
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trivialknot

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Re: Renaissance Previews #5: Fair, Silos, Citadel, Star Chart, Sewers, Innovation
« Reply #78 on: September 28, 2018, 12:44:21 pm »
+2

Now I'm wondering what's the most abusive card to play during your buy phase.
Leprechaun, Poor House, Tactician, and kinda Horse Traders.
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DDL

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Re: Renaissance Previews #5: Fair, Silos, Citadel, Star Chart, Sewers, Innovation
« Reply #79 on: September 28, 2018, 12:53:51 pm »
+3

Silos + Page/Peasant

Get the final card on Turn 6.
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cmb

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Re: Renaissance Previews #5: Fair, Silos, Citadel, Star Chart, Sewers, Innovation
« Reply #80 on: September 28, 2018, 01:00:39 pm »
+1

I get that's what it's supposed to be, but wording doesn't make sense.

How does it not make sense? You discard the Coppers, revealed. And then you draw that many cards.

You discard the coppers, revealed? But no coppers were revealed. There's nothing that says to reveal your hand. It doesn't say to reveal the coppers like it's supposed to. The syntax is messed up. How does that make sense?

It doesn't say "discard the revealed coppers", it says "discard the coppers, [in such a way that they become] revealed".

It made sense to me, but a better wording might be "At the beginning of your turn, you may reveal and discard any number of coppers. Draw as many cards as coppers you revealed and discarded."
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Watno

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Re: Renaissance Previews #5: Fair, Silos, Citadel, Star Chart, Sewers, Innovation
« Reply #81 on: September 28, 2018, 01:19:36 pm »
+1

Did I miss the discussion about why Innovation makes you set aside the card before playing it?
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Re: Renaissance Previews #5: Fair, Silos, Citadel, Star Chart, Sewers, Innovation
« Reply #82 on: September 28, 2018, 01:25:09 pm »
0

Did I miss the discussion about why Innovation makes you set aside the card before playing it?

I was thinking that that keeps you from gaining something to the top of your deck, which some cards say, and then playing it from there. I'm fuzzy on those types of rules, though.
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King Leon

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Re: Renaissance Previews #5: Fair, Silos, Citadel, Star Chart, Sewers, Innovation
« Reply #83 on: September 28, 2018, 01:26:32 pm »
+2

My first idea was, that projects were something upgradable with multiple levels. But this is also fine, because it is kept simple, but still innovative.
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trivialknot

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Re: Renaissance Previews #5: Fair, Silos, Citadel, Star Chart, Sewers, Innovation
« Reply #84 on: September 28, 2018, 01:28:50 pm »
+2

Did I miss the discussion about why Innovation makes you set aside the card before playing it?
I think it's to prevent tracking issues.  For example, if I gain Death Cart, I can choose whether to gain ruins first, or activate Innovation first.  If I gain ruins first, then the death cart is covered, which means it's lost track of.  But losing track of death cart doesn't prevent you from playing it, it just prevents you from moving it from one spot to another.  So Innovation needs that clause to prevent a lot of issues where you play a card without moving it into the play area.  Summon has a similar clause.
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King Leon

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Re: Renaissance Previews #5: Fair, Silos, Citadel, Star Chart, Sewers, Innovation
« Reply #85 on: September 28, 2018, 01:35:29 pm »
+1

Regarding Innovation: Will Villa and Ironworks lose track if you use Innovation's effect?

Regarding Possession: Which projects are available for the possessed player? What happens if a possessed player buys a project. Does Sewer also apply to the “pseudo-trashed” cards of the possessed player?

I had personally wondered why it wasn't "At the start of your turn, reveal any number of Coppers, discard them, and draw that many cards.", which seems to fit the Dominion standard, but that does add 3 characters.

Discarding is from your hand by default, but revealing is not. So it would have had to be, "Reveal any number of Coppers from your hand, discard them, then draw that many cards."

It is very clear that you can't discard Copper from Miser, Island and Native Village, isn't it?
« Last Edit: September 28, 2018, 01:44:55 pm by King Leon »
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matste

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Re: Renaissance Previews #5: Fair, Silos, Citadel, Star Chart, Sewers, Innovation
« Reply #86 on: September 28, 2018, 02:07:00 pm »
+2

Now I'm wondering what's the most abusive card to play during your buy phase.
Leprechaun, Poor House, Tactician, and kinda Horse Traders.
Itís not only about the buy phase. When gaining an Imp, you can play any action during the night.

The only action you can gain during the cleanup phase is Madman, but the effect is lame, probably. Any card you draw, you should discard anyway. Iím not entirely sure about that interpretation. Thereís a possibility that in the cleanup you discard the hand and the play ďat onceĒ. If thatís true, then you might end up with a non-empty hand before drawing your next hand.
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ossiangrr

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Re: Renaissance Previews #5: Fair, Silos, Citadel, Star Chart, Sewers, Innovation
« Reply #87 on: September 28, 2018, 02:08:22 pm »
0

If I have Innovation and I buy/play an Action card with +Buy, can I use that +Buy during the current Buy Phase?

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LastFootnote

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Re: Renaissance Previews #5: Fair, Silos, Citadel, Star Chart, Sewers, Innovation
« Reply #88 on: September 28, 2018, 02:10:27 pm »
+2

If I have Innovation and I buy/play an Action card with +Buy, can I use that +Buy during the current Buy Phase?

Yes.
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ossiangrr

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Re: Renaissance Previews #5: Fair, Silos, Citadel, Star Chart, Sewers, Innovation
« Reply #89 on: September 28, 2018, 02:17:12 pm »
0

Now I'm wondering what's the most abusive card to play during your buy phase.
Leprechaun, Poor House, Tactician, and kinda Horse Traders.
Itís not only about the buy phase. When gaining an Imp, you can play any action during the night.[/q]

Not abusive per se, but with Innovation you can have perfect timing playing Island and having a good card to send away with it.
 
Another not-particularly-abusive thought: When gaining an action card from the Black Market, which you might otherwise not see for awhile, you can immediately play it.
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Ingix

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Re: Renaissance Previews #5: Fair, Silos, Citadel, Star Chart, Sewers, Innovation
« Reply #90 on: September 28, 2018, 02:27:12 pm »
+1

Regarding Innovation: Will Villa and Ironworks lose track if you use Innovation's effect?

Villa: Yes, if you choose Innovation to go first. Which means that you still return to your Action phase and get +1 Action, the Villa will however not be in your hand but already played by Innovation (for additional +2 Actions, +1 Buy, +$1).

Ironworks: Ironworks doesn't try to move the card after it is gained, so loose track doesn't really apply. All it does is determining the card's type(s), which should not normally be a problem, but I assume there might be edge cases where it is. So if it is a Band of Misfits that Innovation plays as a Mill, Ironworks will see it as Victory-Action; same if it copies an Island.

Regarding Possession: Which projects are available for the possessed player? What happens if a possessed player buys a project.

Nothing special about this here. It is the Possessee's turn, so their already bought projects work (like Silos) and any projects they can afford and have't bought yet the Possessor can make them buy. Since they are not cards, nothing out of the ordinary happens, the bought projects belong to the Possessee and can be used by them on later turns.

Does Sewer also apply to the ďpseudo-trashedĒ cards of the possessed player?

Yes, the cards are trashed, so Sewer (if bought by the Possessee) is applicable.

It is very clear that you can't discard Copper from Miser, Island and Native Village, isn't it?

To me it is.
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Minotaur

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Re: Renaissance Previews #5: Fair, Silos, Citadel, Star Chart, Sewers, Innovation
« Reply #91 on: September 28, 2018, 02:48:29 pm »
+1

First obvious observation: Sewers go well with Rats! Nice flavor choice there.

Not quite as nicely as one would like.  You have to draw a second Rats in order to break even on the Rats count.  But the on-trash effect would be great.  I would bet money that the combination made it to the recommended games list.  (If not: Hey DXV, is there still time to update the suggested games?)
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Minotaur

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Re: Renaissance Previews #5: Fair, Silos, Citadel, Star Chart, Sewers, Innovation
« Reply #92 on: September 28, 2018, 03:10:39 pm »
+1

The local Acting Troupe appreciates a little Innovation now and then...
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scolapasta

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Re: Renaissance Previews #5: Fair, Silos, Citadel, Star Chart, Sewers, Innovation
« Reply #93 on: September 28, 2018, 03:33:26 pm »
+1

Do you have to use an unused cube or can you move a cube from one project to another? There may be some project you no longer want? or in the case where you decide to use 3 projects.

(description says "unused" so answer seems no; just seeking confirmation)
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King Leon

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Re: Renaissance Previews #5: Fair, Silos, Citadel, Star Chart, Sewers, Innovation
« Reply #94 on: September 28, 2018, 03:36:16 pm »
+1

Now I'm wondering what's the most abusive card to play during your buy phase.
Leprechaun, Poor House, Tactician, and kinda Horse Traders.
It’s not only about the buy phase. When gaining an Imp, you can play any action during the night.[/q]

Not abusive per se, but with Innovation you can have perfect timing playing Island and having a good card to send away with it.
 
Another not-particularly-abusive thought: When gaining an action card from the Black Market, which you might otherwise not see for awhile, you can immediately play it.

You could also buy and play a Treasure Map, if you have another one your hand. Boom, what a nice deal!

And, yes, I want to talk about Bag of Gold. Normally the most useless Prize becomes amazing as hell.

Last, but not least, University turns into the best gainer in the game.
« Last Edit: September 28, 2018, 03:49:00 pm by King Leon »
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Jeebus

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Re: Renaissance Previews #5: Fair, Silos, Citadel, Star Chart, Sewers, Innovation
« Reply #95 on: September 28, 2018, 03:40:20 pm »
0

So with Star Chart you don't get to look at your deck after shuffling, right? You set aside the card you want first, then shuffle the rest?

Clearly not, but it's too bad that this card breaks the "when means after" convention. I think "before you shuffle" would be both more correct and clearer.

Dwhit

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Re: Renaissance Previews #5: Fair, Silos, Citadel, Star Chart, Sewers, Innovation
« Reply #96 on: September 28, 2018, 03:54:24 pm »
0

Innovation, when your first gain is in your buy phase can you use the coin supplied by the purchased and played card? What about coffers? I'm pretty sure it's a no for coffers. If you buy a crown and innovation plays it does it have to be played as an action?
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pacovf

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Re: Renaissance Previews #5: Fair, Silos, Citadel, Star Chart, Sewers, Innovation
« Reply #97 on: September 28, 2018, 03:58:44 pm »
0

Innovation + Distant Lands sounds good.

If you use Rats to trash with Sewers, you will be left with two Rats in your deck, at best. Unless you finish the Rats pile. On the other hand, any card that trashes two cards from your hand is promoted to Chapel with Sewers.

Silos combos with Counting House and Settlers. Itís good to see those two get some love.

Citadel is going to be crazy with cards that play other cards, or with ways to start your turn with extra actions. If you use it to double a village, it isnít that hot.

And I have a feeling Star Chart could cost 5$ and it would still be bought in most games.
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werothegreat

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Re: Renaissance Previews #5: Fair, Silos, Citadel, Star Chart, Sewers, Innovation
« Reply #98 on: September 28, 2018, 04:11:54 pm »
+5

Innovation, when your first gain is in your buy phase can you use the coin supplied by the purchased and played card? What about coffers? I'm pretty sure it's a no for coffers. If you buy a crown and innovation plays it does it have to be played as an action?

Coins, yes. Coffers, no.

Crown is not "played as an Action". It is both an Action and a Treasure. If gained during your Buy phase, Innovation can play it, and since it is your Buy phase, you will be able to play a Treasure twice.
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Re: Renaissance Previews #5: Fair, Silos, Citadel, Star Chart, Sewers, Innovation
« Reply #99 on: September 28, 2018, 05:19:03 pm »
0

I've just had a randomly selected game with Innovation and Pillage.  Seemed very effective!
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