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Author Topic: Renaissance Previews #5: Fair, Silos, Citadel, Star Chart, Sewers, Innovation  (Read 10610 times)

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Orange

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Re: Renaissance Previews #5: Fair, Silos, Citadel, Star Chart, Sewers, Innovation
« Reply #50 on: September 28, 2018, 06:39:28 am »
0

Wow!  My second game, with a little help from Star Chart and Fair, but mostly due to Recruiter, Seer, Experiment, and Bridge:

Turn 9:  gain 4 Bridges, 2 Forums, and a Seer
Turn 10:  gain 8 Forums, 6 Experiments, 2 Bridges, a Recruiter, and a Province
Turn 11:  gain 7 Provinces and 4 Duchies
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Orange

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Re: Renaissance Previews #5: Fair, Silos, Citadel, Star Chart, Sewers, Innovation
« Reply #51 on: September 28, 2018, 06:46:48 am »
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I'm still confused by Citadel + duration.  Help?
« Last Edit: September 28, 2018, 06:48:53 am by Orange »
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Holunder9

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Re: Renaissance Previews #5: Fair, Silos, Citadel, Star Chart, Sewers, Innovation
« Reply #52 on: September 28, 2018, 06:49:15 am »
+1

So Citadel + duration means the duration triggers twice both turns?
Only if it was the first Action played on the previous turn and the first Action selected to be played on the current turn.
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infangthief

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Re: Renaissance Previews #5: Fair, Silos, Citadel, Star Chart, Sewers, Innovation
« Reply #53 on: September 28, 2018, 07:04:01 am »
+6

So Citadel + duration means the duration triggers twice both turns?
Only if it was the first Action played on the previous turn and the first Action selected to be played on the current turn.
No. You only play the duration card on the previous turn. You do not play it on the current turn.
So, with Citadel, if the duration card was the first action card played on the previous turn then the 'next turn' effect happens twice on the current turn. And in addition you can still play another action card twice on your current turn.
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Ingix

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Re: Renaissance Previews #5: Fair, Silos, Citadel, Star Chart, Sewers, Innovation
« Reply #54 on: September 28, 2018, 07:07:27 am »
+6

If the first thing you play on a turn when you have Citadel is a Duration, it is played twice. Just as with a Throne Room. If it is a Fishing Village, you get +$1, +2 Actions twice now.
Next turn, you get +$1,+1 Action twice (just as with Throne Room).

Getting those bonuses next turn is not 'playing a card', so Citadel doesn't affect them. When you actually play the first Action card next turn, it is doubled by Citadel.
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Holunder9

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Re: Renaissance Previews #5: Fair, Silos, Citadel, Star Chart, Sewers, Innovation
« Reply #55 on: September 28, 2018, 07:13:38 am »
+1

So Citadel + duration means the duration triggers twice both turns?
Only if it was the first Action played on the previous turn and the first Action selected to be played on the current turn.
No. You only play the duration card on the previous turn. You do not play it on the current turn.
So, with Citadel, if the duration card was the first action card played on the previous turn then the 'next turn' effect happens twice on the current turn. And in addition you can still play another action card twice on your current turn.
My mistake. I got confused by a Prince-Citadel game but cards set aside by Prince are of course played whereas Durations aren't after the first turn.

Durations interact quite well with Innovation. Especially "nothing this turn" stuff like Haunted Woods or Swamp Hag.
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Orange

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Re: Renaissance Previews #5: Fair, Silos, Citadel, Star Chart, Sewers, Innovation
« Reply #56 on: September 28, 2018, 07:14:50 am »
0

the street date for the physical set. Which is when you'll also get to see the rest of the cards. And when is that? Well the current guess is... late October. Very late October. So late in October that it's almost not October. Man. A month away. But at least RGG has a lot of confidence in that estimate.

Damn, as of a couple days ago the RGG site had October 8 as the release date; now it says October 28
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Chris is me

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Re: Renaissance Previews #5: Fair, Silos, Citadel, Star Chart, Sewers, Innovation
« Reply #57 on: September 28, 2018, 07:22:34 am »
+1

I'm wondering if I figured out part of the Teaser:
If I have Innovation, and I buy the last copy of Outpost which is the third pile to be emptied (endgame trigger), then can I play Outpost, and then take an additional turn after the game is technically over?

No, end of turn conditions are evaluated before you take additional turns. Using Innovation on the last Outpost isn't any different than playing an Outpost from your deck the same turn you pile out.
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Willvon

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Re: Renaissance Previews #5: Fair, Silos, Citadel, Star Chart, Sewers, Innovation
« Reply #58 on: September 28, 2018, 08:34:29 am »
+14

Thanks, Donald. You just gave me another great week of waking up excited to see what’s new. I know there are limits to how far you will go with this game, but you could keep having a preview week every year, and you certainly wouldn’t get a complaint from me.

My wife and I wish to thank you for creating and expanding this wonderful game. I have many games in my collection, but none of them puts a smile on my wife’s face like Dominion does when I ask her if she wants to play a certain game. Since we discovered Dominion 9 years ago, for us there has been Dominion and then a bunch of other games that we play for a change of pace or different kind of challenge.

I had been afraid Nocturne was the end; Night had fallen on Dominion. Thanks for conquering the Dark Ages and bringing a Renaissance to Dominion.
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greybirdofprey

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Re: Renaissance Previews #5: Fair, Silos, Citadel, Star Chart, Sewers, Innovation
« Reply #59 on: September 28, 2018, 09:01:32 am »
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Will there be interactive Projects? We had interactive Events (Tax/Raid) and Landmarks (every Landmark that says 'put X VP here per player', for example). I can think of some but won't name any because this isn't 'variants and fan cards'.
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MatthewCA

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Re: Renaissance Previews #5: Fair, Silos, Citadel, Star Chart, Sewers, Innovation
« Reply #60 on: September 28, 2018, 09:06:29 am »
0

How many projects will be in the set?
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DDL

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Re: Renaissance Previews #5: Fair, Silos, Citadel, Star Chart, Sewers, Innovation
« Reply #61 on: September 28, 2018, 09:13:30 am »
+6

I just played a game with Sewers.

I have something to say.

Mine... is now a good card.
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LastFootnote

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Re: Renaissance Previews #5: Fair, Silos, Citadel, Star Chart, Sewers, Innovation
« Reply #62 on: September 28, 2018, 09:13:50 am »
+1

How many projects will be in the set?

20. It’s right in the preview.
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markus

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Re: Renaissance Previews #5: Fair, Silos, Citadel, Star Chart, Sewers, Innovation
« Reply #64 on: September 28, 2018, 09:15:38 am »
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Sewers gets weird when the only trashing is Ducat.

Citadel is a lot of fun.
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markusin

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Re: Renaissance Previews #5: Fair, Silos, Citadel, Star Chart, Sewers, Innovation
« Reply #65 on: September 28, 2018, 09:18:15 am »
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In short, I think these projects are awesome. They basically work like Events, so it's nothing we haven't seen before as a whole. I always found Events and Landmarks to be a very card efficient source of variety in the game.

The throne effect for the first action you play in a turn, that's been a thing since the Goko/MF campaign where one of the levels had it, I think at DXVs request.
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SuperHans

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Re: Renaissance Previews #5: Fair, Silos, Citadel, Star Chart, Sewers, Innovation
« Reply #66 on: September 28, 2018, 09:48:06 am »
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After thinking about it for a bit, I'm wondering about the decision-making process regarding these. Since you can only buy these once, it seems like it will be a no-brainer to get them every game. The effects are either never harmful or optional, and you don't have to pick a good "target" like inheritance. I suppose there's decisions in when to get them, but I think even there the answer is usually "as soon as possible." I guess the main exception would be Fair, which you should probably wait on. And you don't need Silos if there's premium trashing, or Sewers if there's no trashing. But what about the others? In the end, are projects a little too simple?
The question is usually not whether to buy a project because in a lot of instances they will be must buys. And sometimes it might not even be when to buy the project. The more important question will usually be how do you build your startegy around the project. I think projects are somewhat of an inevitable addition to the game and am really glad they stayed simplistic.

To me, they are kind of like Asper's Edicts. Basically, they are are just rule changes, but with some level of decision making about whether to buy and when to buy.
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gannon2145

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Re: Renaissance Previews #5: Fair, Silos, Citadel, Star Chart, Sewers, Innovation
« Reply #67 on: September 28, 2018, 10:07:54 am »
+1

I get that's what it's supposed to be, but wording doesn't make sense.

How does it not make sense? You discard the Coppers, revealed. And then you draw that many cards.

You discard the coppers, revealed? But no coppers were revealed. There's nothing that says to reveal your hand. The syntax is messed up. How does that make sense?
"Revealed" means "also, reveal those coppers, so that we know they are coppers. By the way sorry for saying this so tersely but there's only so much room on the cards and if it had ever confused anyone in playtesting man I would have changed it."

Why not just "At the start of your turn, reveal and discard any number of coppers and draw that many cards."?
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AJD

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Re: Renaissance Previews #5: Fair, Silos, Citadel, Star Chart, Sewers, Innovation
« Reply #68 on: September 28, 2018, 10:16:39 am »
+1

I'm wondering if I figured out part of the Teaser:
If I have Innovation, and I buy the last copy of Outpost which is the third pile to be emptied (endgame trigger), then can I play Outpost, and then take an additional turn after the game is technically over?

My guess was just gonna be, there's a Project whose effect is "Take an extra turn at the end of the game."
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Oyvind

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Re: Renaissance Previews #5: Fair, Silos, Citadel, Star Chart, Sewers, Innovation
« Reply #69 on: September 28, 2018, 10:17:43 am »
+1

I get that's what it's supposed to be, but wording doesn't make sense.

How does it not make sense? You discard the Coppers, revealed. And then you draw that many cards.

You discard the coppers, revealed? But no coppers were revealed. There's nothing that says to reveal your hand. The syntax is messed up. How does that make sense?
"Revealed" means "also, reveal those coppers, so that we know they are coppers. By the way sorry for saying this so tersely but there's only so much room on the cards and if it had ever confused anyone in playtesting man I would have changed it."

Why not just "At the start of your turn, reveal and discard any number of coppers and draw that many cards."?

Then I ask: Why add another word? The text on the card-shaped thing is correct English and more efficient than your suggestion.
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Uiteindelijk

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Re: Renaissance Previews #5: Fair, Silos, Citadel, Star Chart, Sewers, Innovation
« Reply #70 on: September 28, 2018, 10:30:15 am »
+1

After thinking about it for a bit, I'm wondering about the decision-making process regarding these. Since you can only buy these once, it seems like it will be a no-brainer to get them every game (Except Sewer with no trashing and other obvious exceptions). The effects are either never harmful or optional, and you don't have to pick a good "target" like inheritance. I suppose there's decisions in when to get them, but I think even there the answer is usually "as soon as possible." In the end, are they a little too simple?
I don't think so. Of course something like Silos is a no-brainer in a game without Copper trashing but what if there is moderate trashing or sifting? Then it is not that simple.
I agree that the Projects are simple, too simple for my irrelevant preferences, but this doesn't imply that they don't lead to tricky decisions.

I agree; I think only Star Chart and Fair are likely to be must-buy. Citadel could easily be skippable in a Province game, considering the cost. Sewers and Silos are skippable with good trashing cards.

Innovation seems tricky to make use of if the only way to gain actions in a game is by buying them. Actions that give money or buys could work, but that would only apply on the turn you buy them, so paying 6 for that effect isn't necessarily a must-buy.

Overall, I suspect these add good variety, without making every game with Projects necessarily focus on the Projects.
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Re: Renaissance Previews #5: Fair, Silos, Citadel, Star Chart, Sewers, Innovation
« Reply #71 on: September 28, 2018, 10:43:16 am »
+1

I get that's what it's supposed to be, but wording doesn't make sense.

How does it not make sense? You discard the Coppers, revealed. And then you draw that many cards.

You discard the coppers, revealed? But no coppers were revealed. There's nothing that says to reveal your hand. The syntax is messed up. How does that make sense?
"Revealed" means "also, reveal those coppers, so that we know they are coppers. By the way sorry for saying this so tersely but there's only so much room on the cards and if it had ever confused anyone in playtesting man I would have changed it."

Why not just "At the start of your turn, reveal and discard any number of coppers and draw that many cards."?

Then I ask: Why add another word? The text on the card-shaped thing is correct English and more efficient than your suggestion.

His suggestion is actually the same number of characters. I also had momentary confusion over the wording. Regardless of its correctness in English, the current wording is non-standard in the Dominion language, which is more relevant here. That said, "momentary confusion" passes quickly, so it doesn't seem like a big deal.

I had personally wondered why it wasn't "At the start of your turn, reveal any number of Coppers, discard them, and draw that many cards.", which seems to fit the Dominion standard, but that does add 3 characters.
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greybirdofprey

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Re: Renaissance Previews #5: Fair, Silos, Citadel, Star Chart, Sewers, Innovation
« Reply #72 on: September 28, 2018, 10:53:28 am »
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Silos looks the most mistranslation-prone of all Renaissance previews so far.

« Last Edit: September 28, 2018, 10:54:43 am by greybirdofprey »
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LastFootnote

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Re: Renaissance Previews #5: Fair, Silos, Citadel, Star Chart, Sewers, Innovation
« Reply #73 on: September 28, 2018, 10:54:51 am »
+6

I had personally wondered why it wasn't "At the start of your turn, reveal any number of Coppers, discard them, and draw that many cards.", which seems to fit the Dominion standard, but that does add 3 characters.

Discarding is from your hand by default, but revealing is not. So it would have had to be, "Reveal any number of Coppers from your hand, discard them, then draw that many cards."
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Oyvind

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Re: Renaissance Previews #5: Fair, Silos, Citadel, Star Chart, Sewers, Innovation
« Reply #74 on: September 28, 2018, 11:04:23 am »
+1

I get that's what it's supposed to be, but wording doesn't make sense.

How does it not make sense? You discard the Coppers, revealed. And then you draw that many cards.

You discard the coppers, revealed? But no coppers were revealed. There's nothing that says to reveal your hand. The syntax is messed up. How does that make sense?
"Revealed" means "also, reveal those coppers, so that we know they are coppers. By the way sorry for saying this so tersely but there's only so much room on the cards and if it had ever confused anyone in playtesting man I would have changed it."

Why not just "At the start of your turn, reveal and discard any number of coppers and draw that many cards."?

Then I ask: Why add another word? The text on the card-shaped thing is correct English and more efficient than your suggestion.

His suggestion is actually the same number of characters. I also had momentary confusion over the wording. Regardless of its correctness in English, the current wording is non-standard in the Dominion language, which is more relevant here. That said, "momentary confusion" passes quickly, so it doesn't seem like a big deal.

I had personally wondered why it wasn't "At the start of your turn, reveal any number of Coppers, discard them, and draw that many cards.", which seems to fit the Dominion standard, but that does add 3 characters.

True, but the characters also take up marginally more space, even though the number of spaces are the same:
At the start of your turn, reveal and discard any
number of Coppers and draw that many cards.

At the start of your turn, discard any number of
Coppers, revealed, and draw that many cards.


Space is really tight here, and if the limit is filled on the card-shaped thing as it is, the alternative presented here actually gets to three lines. I don't know how to add a picture of it, but with the correct font, Excel shows that this is enough of a problem to warrant three lines, if the width is really filled out.

I used font size 10 and column width 36,14 and got the following breaks in the text:

At the start of your turn, reveal and discard
any number of Coppers and draw that many
cards.

At the start of your turn, discards any number of
Coppers, revealed, and draw that many cards.


Not that I believe this was what made them do it like this. Just look up DXV's explanation above. He tried it that way, and no playtesters had a problem with it, so it stayed. I don't understand why it should be changed if it works, and my mention of number of words was just because I saw that the frame was pretty much filled to it's limit. I don't think they want the text to almost touch the frames, because that doesn't look good, and with all the thought going into expanding the text size in 2nd edition/revised edition, I don't see why they should try to fill the boxes so that they potentially need to make the text smaller.
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