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Author Topic: Renaissance Previews #4: Flag Bearer, Swashbuckler, Treasurer  (Read 8157 times)

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AJD

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Re: Renaissance Previews #4: Flag Bearer, Swashbuckler, Treasurer
« Reply #100 on: October 01, 2018, 04:35:35 pm »
+8

You stab him in the heart.
Is that what trashing means? I never realised. I feel so bad. I'm not sure I can play this game any more.

You thought Knights were just tickling everybody?  And Graverobber, what does he do?  Death Cart?  If you have alternative narratives, they might be entertaining...

Perhaps Knights just persuade people to commit themselves to life in the church.
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Minotaur

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Re: Renaissance Previews #4: Flag Bearer, Swashbuckler, Treasurer
« Reply #101 on: October 01, 2018, 07:44:40 pm »
+2

You stab him in the heart.
Is that what trashing means? I never realised. I feel so bad. I'm not sure I can play this game any more.

You thought Knights were just tickling everybody?  And Graverobber, what does he do?  Death Cart?  If you have alternative narratives, they might be entertaining...

Perhaps Knights just persuade people to commit themselves to life in the church.

I never knew Rats were so religious.
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Re: Renaissance Previews #4: Flag Bearer, Swashbuckler, Treasurer
« Reply #102 on: October 02, 2018, 04:29:32 am »
+1

You stab him in the heart.
Is that what trashing means? I never realised. I feel so bad. I'm not sure I can play this game any more.

You thought Knights were just tickling everybody?  And Graverobber, what does he do?  Death Cart?  If you have alternative narratives, they might be entertaining...

I understand 'trash' to mean 'remove from your dominion', by whatever means, violent or otherwise. The narrative depends on what causes the card to be trashed.
I suppose in the absence of knowing what was trashing my Flag Bearer, I naturally assumed a non-violent explanation. Because I'm that kind of person.

But certainly there are lots of possibilities; could be stabbed in the heart by a knight, could die of natural causes and be carried away in a death cart, could be promoted (upgrade your Flag Bearer into a Governor?), could be traded away for silver, or could be pushed into the sewers.
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werothegreat

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Re: Renaissance Previews #4: Flag Bearer, Swashbuckler, Treasurer
« Reply #103 on: October 02, 2018, 07:35:40 am »
+1

Or even subsumed into the Borg Rats!
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Re: Renaissance Previews #4: Flag Bearer, Swashbuckler, Treasurer
« Reply #104 on: October 02, 2018, 10:27:08 am »
0

I understand 'trash' to mean 'remove from your dominion', by whatever means, violent or otherwise. The narrative depends on what causes the card to be trashed.
I suppose in the absence of knowing what was trashing my Flag Bearer, I naturally assumed a non-violent explanation. Because I'm that kind of person.

But certainly there are lots of possibilities; could be stabbed in the heart by a knight, could die of natural causes and be carried away in a death cart, could be promoted (upgrade your Flag Bearer into a Governor?), could be traded away for silver, or could be pushed into the sewers.

Hmmm, I suppose there could be a story where the Flag Bearer of the Great Flag War is finally promoted to Knighthood when he secures the flag a second time.  Other things like Forge are pretty hard to figure out in any generality.
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Re: Renaissance Previews #4: Flag Bearer, Swashbuckler, Treasurer
« Reply #105 on: October 02, 2018, 09:52:23 pm »
+1

Hmm, Flag Bearer is a bit of a player-2 advantage card, isn't it? Assuming multiple do-nothing terminal silvers aren't something you really want in your deck.
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Re: Renaissance Previews #4: Flag Bearer, Swashbuckler, Treasurer
« Reply #106 on: October 03, 2018, 04:22:59 am »
0

Hmm, Flag Bearer is a bit of a player-2 advantage card, isn't it? Assuming multiple do-nothing terminal silvers aren't something you really want in your deck.

One of my first thoughts was that all the artifacts confer a player-2 advantage.
But thinking about it further, my theory is that whether or not there is a player-2 advantage comes down to the opportunity cost of regaining the artifact (assuming you've had it some time before).
- Positive opportunity cost means player-2 advantage. At any time when both players have made the opportunity cost the same number of times, the artifact will be with whoever had it second, which is more likely to be player 2.
- Negative opportunity cost means no player-2 advantage. The artifact will go easily back and forth without either player needing to undermine their position to get it.

Flag Bearer, you have to gain or trash a terminal silver. That is usually a positive opportunity cost. There is always something better you could be doing with the gain (eg gain Silver).
Treasurer, you have to play a terminal gold and forego trashing/gaining a Treasure. That is sometimes a positive opportunity cost, at least in early game when you'd rather play terminal gold and trash a Copper.
Swashbuckler, you have to play a smithy while you have cards in your discard pile and at least 3 coffers. My hunch is that saving up 3 coffers is often a positive opportunity cost (you could have spent them to accelerate your deck some other way).

So my theory would lead me to believe that in terms of player-2 advantage: Flag Bearer - yes; Swashbuckler - probably; Treasurer - probably.

Of course, the magnitude of any such advantage is affected by the power of the artifact on a given board. On a board where it's not worth getting the Treasure Chest then the magnitude of Swashbuckler's player-2 advantage is 0.

[EDITED to recognise that using Treasurer to get the Key comes at the opportunity cost of trashing a treasure.]
« Last Edit: October 03, 2018, 04:59:16 am by infangthief »
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infangthief

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Re: Renaissance Previews #4: Flag Bearer, Swashbuckler, Treasurer
« Reply #107 on: October 03, 2018, 04:30:45 am »
0

I wonder if we will get an Artifact with negative-utility? One that you get by gaining/playing a card that would be too powerful on its own.
I reckon it would be very hard to make such a thing balanced.
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Re: Renaissance Previews #4: Flag Bearer, Swashbuckler, Treasurer
« Reply #108 on: October 03, 2018, 06:10:50 am »
+2

Not really. There is basically no such thing as a player 2 advantage. If there were, the first player would pass to become the second player. Sure, the timing of your shuffles don't quite make that always the best play, but that's a higher-order effect.

There's a second-mover advantage, though, which means that there's less incentive than usual to take the artifact first. By doing so, you're opening your opponent up to a much stronger play of stealing it from you. It's like taking Dame Josephine if she's the top Knight on the pile, but even more so.
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Re: Renaissance Previews #4: Flag Bearer, Swashbuckler, Treasurer
« Reply #109 on: October 03, 2018, 08:37:35 am »
+4

Not really. There is basically no such thing as a player 2 advantage. If there were, the first player would pass to become the second player. Sure, the timing of your shuffles don't quite make that always the best play, but that's a higher-order effect.

There's a second-mover advantage, though, which means that there's less incentive than usual to take the artifact first. By doing so, you're opening your opponent up to a much stronger play of stealing it from you. It's like taking Dame Josephine if she's the top Knight on the pile, but even more so.

I think this is totally wrong, and for a reason you have noted - the timing of shuffles. You seem to think this just occasionally might muck up your logic, but it totally nukes it every time. You don't get to pass in dominion. You get to put your hand into your discard pile and draw 5 more cards. That's absolutely not the same thing.
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markusin

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Re: Renaissance Previews #4: Flag Bearer, Swashbuckler, Treasurer
« Reply #110 on: October 03, 2018, 09:16:50 am »
0

Not really. There is basically no such thing as a player 2 advantage. If there were, the first player would pass to become the second player. Sure, the timing of your shuffles don't quite make that always the best play, but that's a higher-order effect.

There's a second-mover advantage, though, which means that there's less incentive than usual to take the artifact first. By doing so, you're opening your opponent up to a much stronger play of stealing it from you. It's like taking Dame Josephine if she's the top Knight on the pile, but even more so.

I think this is totally wrong, and for a reason you have noted - the timing of shuffles. You seem to think this just occasionally might muck up your logic, but it totally nukes it every time. You don't get to pass in dominion. You get to put your hand into your discard pile and draw 5 more cards. That's absolutely not the same thing.

What complicates things is that you get the effect of the flag the turn you get flag bearer, so there could be times where spiking a card with Flag Bearer and likely getting to play the spiked card before player two is worth it for player one. The first mover gets the 6-card starting hand first, and only after several turns of losing the flag are they at a clear disadvantage. Also the opening it matters what order you get the Coppers and so player two might not be in a position to contest the Flag right away, say if player two has 4/3 or 5/2 and player one has 3/4.

Edit: oh you were talking about player one passing T1 completely, while I was specifically talking about Flag Bearer.
« Last Edit: October 03, 2018, 09:18:12 am by markusin »
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trivialknot

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Re: Renaissance Previews #4: Flag Bearer, Swashbuckler, Treasurer
« Reply #111 on: October 03, 2018, 12:01:35 pm »
0

Not really. There is basically no such thing as a player 2 advantage. If there were, the first player would pass to become the second player. Sure, the timing of your shuffles don't quite make that always the best play, but that's a higher-order effect.

There's a second-mover advantage, though, which means that there's less incentive than usual to take the artifact first. By doing so, you're opening your opponent up to a much stronger play of stealing it from you. It's like taking Dame Josephine if she's the top Knight on the pile, but even more so.

I think this is totally wrong, and for a reason you have noted - the timing of shuffles. You seem to think this just occasionally might muck up your logic, but it totally nukes it every time. You don't get to pass in dominion. You get to put your hand into your discard pile and draw 5 more cards. That's absolutely not the same thing.

I think the shuffle timing actually gives an advantage to the first player.  For example, if both players buy a Flag Bearer on T2, then P2 ends up with the Flag, and the decks are otherwise the same.  On the other hand, if P2 buys a Flag Bearer on T2, and P1 buys one on T3, then P1 ends up with the Flag, and their Flag Bearer comes a shuffle later.  But here's the key point: having a Flag Bearer a shuffle earlier is bad.  Instead of having the Flag Bearer earlier, you could have bought a silver, and had the silver a shuffle earlier instead.
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werothegreat

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Re: Renaissance Previews #4: Flag Bearer, Swashbuckler, Treasurer
« Reply #112 on: October 03, 2018, 12:58:58 pm »
0

Not really. There is basically no such thing as a player 2 advantage. If there were, the first player would pass to become the second player. Sure, the timing of your shuffles don't quite make that always the best play, but that's a higher-order effect.

There's a second-mover advantage, though, which means that there's less incentive than usual to take the artifact first. By doing so, you're opening your opponent up to a much stronger play of stealing it from you. It's like taking Dame Josephine if she's the top Knight on the pile, but even more so.

I think this is totally wrong, and for a reason you have noted - the timing of shuffles. You seem to think this just occasionally might muck up your logic, but it totally nukes it every time. You don't get to pass in dominion. You get to put your hand into your discard pile and draw 5 more cards. That's absolutely not the same thing.

I think the shuffle timing actually gives an advantage to the first player.  For example, if both players buy a Flag Bearer on T2, then P2 ends up with the Flag, and the decks are otherwise the same.  On the other hand, if P2 buys a Flag Bearer on T2, and P1 buys one on T3, then P1 ends up with the Flag, and their Flag Bearer comes a shuffle later.  But here's the key point: having a Flag Bearer a shuffle earlier is bad.  Instead of having the Flag Bearer earlier, you could have bought a silver, and had the silver a shuffle earlier instead.

I mean, it depends on what else you open with.  I wouldn't mind having a Flag Bearer in my deck if my was Forager or Oasis or even just a Silver.
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Holger

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Re: Renaissance Previews #4: Flag Bearer, Swashbuckler, Treasurer
« Reply #113 on: October 03, 2018, 02:46:29 pm »
0

Not really. There is basically no such thing as a player 2 advantage. If there were, the first player would pass to become the second player. Sure, the timing of your shuffles don't quite make that always the best play, but that's a higher-order effect.

There's a second-mover advantage, though, which means that there's less incentive than usual to take the artifact first. By doing so, you're opening your opponent up to a much stronger play of stealing it from you. It's like taking Dame Josephine if she's the top Knight on the pile, but even more so.

I think this is totally wrong, and for a reason you have noted - the timing of shuffles. You seem to think this just occasionally might muck up your logic, but it totally nukes it every time. You don't get to pass in dominion. You get to put your hand into your discard pile and draw 5 more cards. That's absolutely not the same thing.

It's not the same thing, but it can help you just as likely as hurt you compared to actual "passing" - and in the early game, it generally helps you to go through your cards faster. Besides, instead of doin gnothing, the first player can usually just do something else that even helps his deck slightly- e.g. gain a Silver or a cantrip.

AFAIK the challenge to construct a kingdom in which the second player wins more often than the first with optimal play on both sides is still open after four years:

The challenge is simple. Design a kingdom where the second player has a higher chance of winning than the first player with optimal play. You may not pick starting hands, nor can you choose the order of the knights pile, the ruins pile, or the black market deck. You can choose the bane, the contents of the ruins pile, and the contents of the black market deck.

I don't actually have a kingdom in mind, but I have some ideas and I think it could lead to some interesting discussion. Unfortunately it is hard to verify solutions, so try to make the benefit for the second player as large as possible.

It is certainly true that Artifacts reduce the inherent 1st-player advantage (like Noble Brigand and positive-interaction cards do). But that's not the same as having a 2nd player advantage.
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Re: Renaissance Previews #4: Flag Bearer, Swashbuckler, Treasurer
« Reply #114 on: October 03, 2018, 03:09:06 pm »
+8

It is certainly true that Artifacts reduce the inherent 1st-player advantage (like Noble Brigand and positive-interaction cards do). But that's not the same as having a 2nd player advantage.

I I'm pretty sure that saying that Flag Bearer has a 2nd player advantage, simply means that its presence is to the 2nd player's advantage (on average), not that it changes the game so that the 2nd player has a bigger advantage than the 1st.

trivialknot

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Re: Renaissance Previews #4: Flag Bearer, Swashbuckler, Treasurer
« Reply #115 on: October 04, 2018, 12:43:01 am »
0

Not really. There is basically no such thing as a player 2 advantage. If there were, the first player would pass to become the second player. Sure, the timing of your shuffles don't quite make that always the best play, but that's a higher-order effect.

There's a second-mover advantage, though, which means that there's less incentive than usual to take the artifact first. By doing so, you're opening your opponent up to a much stronger play of stealing it from you. It's like taking Dame Josephine if she's the top Knight on the pile, but even more so.

I think this is totally wrong, and for a reason you have noted - the timing of shuffles. You seem to think this just occasionally might muck up your logic, but it totally nukes it every time. You don't get to pass in dominion. You get to put your hand into your discard pile and draw 5 more cards. That's absolutely not the same thing.

I think the shuffle timing actually gives an advantage to the first player.  For example, if both players buy a Flag Bearer on T2, then P2 ends up with the Flag, and the decks are otherwise the same.  On the other hand, if P2 buys a Flag Bearer on T2, and P1 buys one on T3, then P1 ends up with the Flag, and their Flag Bearer comes a shuffle later.  But here's the key point: having a Flag Bearer a shuffle earlier is bad.  Instead of having the Flag Bearer earlier, you could have bought a silver, and had the silver a shuffle earlier instead.
Upon further reflection, buying Flag Bearer later is not necessarily better.  Because later your deck is better, and there's more of an opportunity cost.  e.g. if you draw $5 on T3, you might not want to waste it getting a Flag Bearer.
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greybirdofprey

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Re: Renaissance Previews #4: Flag Bearer, Swashbuckler, Treasurer
« Reply #116 on: October 04, 2018, 07:20:48 am »
+1

You stab him in the heart.
Is that what trashing means? I never realised. I feel so bad. I'm not sure I can play this game any more.

You thought Knights were just tickling everybody?  And Graverobber, what does he do?  Death Cart?  If you have alternative narratives, they might be entertaining...

I understand 'trash' to mean 'remove from your dominion', by whatever means, violent or otherwise. The narrative depends on what causes the card to be trashed.
I suppose in the absence of knowing what was trashing my Flag Bearer, I naturally assumed a non-violent explanation. Because I'm that kind of person.

But certainly there are lots of possibilities; could be stabbed in the heart by a knight, could die of natural causes and be carried away in a death cart, could be promoted (upgrade your Flag Bearer into a Governor?), could be traded away for silver, or could be pushed into the sewers.

Also depends on whether it's a person or a structure/location.

With Sauna you can lock someone up and kill them Hitman-style, but if it's say, a village, maybe you destroy the village and use its wood to fuel your Sauna?
With Chapel/Bishop/Temple/Monastery/Priest you donate something to the church.
A lot of cards let you 'sell' something or use its resources to improve it into something else.
The only ones I can't quickly think of a story for are Lookout/Sentry with regard to structures/locations. They see an Estate and... ?
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Re: Renaissance Previews #4: Flag Bearer, Swashbuckler, Treasurer
« Reply #117 on: October 04, 2018, 07:40:22 am »
0

The only ones I can't quickly think of a story for are Lookout/Sentry with regard to structures/locations. They see an Estate and... ?
... the invading hordes who are approaching it (the ones the master said to watch out for) ... and they do nothing.
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Re: Renaissance Previews #4: Flag Bearer, Swashbuckler, Treasurer
« Reply #118 on: October 04, 2018, 08:10:46 am »
+1

The only ones I can't quickly think of a story for are Lookout/Sentry with regard to structures/locations. They see an Estate and... ?
... the invading hordes who are approaching it (the ones the master said to watch out for) ... and they do nothing.

So you deliberately buy bad sentries/lookouts hoping that word will get out so people will invade your cost-inefficient Estates and Copper mines and take them from you?

Works for me.
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Re: Renaissance Previews #4: Flag Bearer, Swashbuckler, Treasurer
« Reply #119 on: October 12, 2018, 05:55:43 pm »
0

I think Flag Bearer looks like it may have been inspired by a Nocturne outtake. I read this in the Blessed Village Secret History today:  Empires had had a Woodcutter that gave you a Boon when you gained it or trashed it.
(Yes I know it says Empires, Boons were originally going to be in Empires but aren't).
It sounds a lot like Flag Bearer, with no +buy and flag instead of Boons.
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Re: Renaissance Previews #4: Flag Bearer, Swashbuckler, Treasurer
« Reply #120 on: October 12, 2018, 07:36:47 pm »
0

I don't think "inspired" is the word there. In general "when you gain or trash this" first showed up in Empires, with Rocks and Crumbling Castle.

The card you are describing was called "Honest Merchant", and it was awesome back when you knew what Boon you were going to get, or better still had a choice of three. When it changed to random Boons, I was all, this card is awful now, let's get rid of it.
« Last Edit: October 12, 2018, 07:39:47 pm by LastFootnote »
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Re: Renaissance Previews #4: Flag Bearer, Swashbuckler, Treasurer
« Reply #121 on: October 12, 2018, 07:45:41 pm »
+2

I don't think "inspired" is the word there. In general "when you gain or trash this" first showed up in Empires, with Rocks and Crumbling Castle.

The card you are describing was called "Honest Merchant", and it was awesome back when you knew what Boon you were going to get, or better still had a choice of three. When it changed to random Boons, I was all, this card is awful now, let's get rid of it.
Awesome except for first player advantage that some people would certainly hate.

And then because of that card dying it took forever for me to try Blessed Village, and then I let you save the Boon and now it's a star of the set. A lesson for us all.
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Re: Renaissance Previews #4: Flag Bearer, Swashbuckler, Treasurer
« Reply #122 on: October 12, 2018, 09:54:24 pm »
0

I don't think "inspired" is the word there. In general "when you gain or trash this" first showed up in Empires, with Rocks and Crumbling Castle.

The card you are describing was called "Honest Merchant", and it was awesome back when you knew what Boon you were going to get, or better still had a choice of three. When it changed to random Boons, I was all, this card is awful now, let's get rid of it.
Awesome except for first player advantage that some people would certainly hate.

Yes, although I maintain that this and a few other problems could have been solved by making Flame's Gift weaker, e.g. "You may discard a Treasure, to trash it or a card from your hand."

EDIT: Well, not solved. Mitigated. I think random Boons was the way to go, though. I am not pining for the days of choose-able Boons, even though there was fun to be had there. Druid still gets you some of that fun.

And then because of that card dying it took forever for me to try Blessed Village, and then I let you save the Boon and now it's a star of the set. A lesson for us all.

Well I don't think the lesson was, "Honest Merchant would have worked fine if you could defer the Boons." I think it's, "Random boons are a lot nicer on a card you want anyway."
« Last Edit: October 12, 2018, 09:56:12 pm by LastFootnote »
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Re: Renaissance Previews #4: Flag Bearer, Swashbuckler, Treasurer
« Reply #123 on: October 13, 2018, 03:54:24 am »
+1

Well I don't think the lesson was, "Honest Merchant would have worked fine if you could defer the Boons." I think it's, "Random boons are a lot nicer on a card you want anyway."
I think they were both significant. We had fun buying Honest Merchant even though it was a Woodcutter. A village is much nicer, but also, getting to save a Boon is huge for how much fun you get out of the Boon on Blessed Village.

The lesson for me though was "Honest Merchant could totally be fixed up." Sure that fix involved having it not be a Woodcutter - to me that wasn't the premise so the trail is clear.
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Re: Renaissance Previews #4: Flag Bearer, Swashbuckler, Treasurer
« Reply #124 on: October 20, 2018, 02:14:32 pm »
+1

The card you are describing was called "Honest Merchant", and it was awesome back when you knew what Boon you were going to get, or better still had a choice of three. When it changed to random Boons, I was all, this card is awful now, let's get rid of it.

And the Merchant isn't exactly Honest if you don't know what you're getting...
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