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Author Topic: Renaissance Previews #4: Flag Bearer, Swashbuckler, Treasurer  (Read 8112 times)

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crj

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Re: Renaissance Previews #4: Flag Bearer, Swashbuckler, Treasurer
« Reply #50 on: September 27, 2018, 10:36:33 am »
+1

Not liking Flag Bearer open on 4/3 as you immediately draw 6 and get a bad shuffle at the start of turn 2, I'll pass.
I'm not certain that's a bad shuffle. If you get $4 on T1 and buy Flag:
  • 1/6 chance: $3 on T2, $6 on T3
  • 4/6 chance $4 on T2, $5 on T3
  • 1/6 chance $6 on T2, $4 on T3
(Edit: braino fixed)

If your opponent lets you keep the flag, your T3 will probably be even better, but the certainty of hitting $5 on or before T3 with 50% chance of hitting $6 seems like a good thing - probably good enough to compensate for the slightly messed-up shuffling.
« Last Edit: September 27, 2018, 11:27:49 am by crj »
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SuperHans

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Re: Renaissance Previews #4: Flag Bearer, Swashbuckler, Treasurer
« Reply #51 on: September 27, 2018, 10:39:50 am »
0

Not liking Flag Bearer open on 4/3 as you immediately draw 6 and get a bad shuffle at the start of turn 2, I'll pass.
I'm not certain that's a bad shuffle. If you get $4 on T1 and buy Flag:
  • 2/6 chance: $3 on T2, $6 on T3
  • 3/6 chance $4 on T2, $5 on T3
  • 1/6 chance $6 on T2, $4 on T3
If your opponent lets you keep the flag, your T3 will probably be even better, but the certainty of hitting $5 on or before T3 with 50% chance of hitting $6 seems like a good thing - probably good enough to compensate for the slightly messed-up shuffling.
The odds are even better than that for Turn 2. There is only a 1/6 chance you draw $3. 4/6 chance you draw $4. 1/6 chance you draw $5.
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dbclick

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Re: Renaissance Previews #4: Flag Bearer, Swashbuckler, Treasurer
« Reply #52 on: September 27, 2018, 10:57:36 am »
+2

Actually, I wasn't aware that "drawing your hand" was a term with a specific definition. It obviously has to apply to drawing a new hand of cards during Clean-up. It probably doesn't apply to mid-turn discard-your-hand-and-draw effects (Guide, Minion, Scholar). But what about drawing after Donate?

Outpost says: "you only draw 3 cards for your next hand", and Expedition says: "Draw 2 extra cards for your next hand". The rulebook refers to "draw a new hand" as what you do during Clean-up. So apparently "draw hand", (and variously "draw new hand", "draw next hand") is the term applied only to the drawing of your hand in the Clean-up phase.

Donate happens after Clean-up (after your turn). So if you had Flag and bought Donate, you would have six cards in hand, then perform Donate, then draw 5 cards.
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jupiter

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Re: Renaissance Previews #4: Flag Bearer, Swashbuckler, Treasurer
« Reply #53 on: September 27, 2018, 11:06:34 am »
+9

These cards all become more powerful when they're in the Black Market. Flag Bearer is superior to Hireling in the majority of cases.
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faust

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Re: Renaissance Previews #4: Flag Bearer, Swashbuckler, Treasurer
« Reply #54 on: September 27, 2018, 11:15:41 am »
0

These cards all become more powerful when they're in the Black Market. Flag Bearer is superior to Hireling in the majority of cases.
But they would probably not be in the Black Market on ShuffleIT as they require extra components (I think? I am not actually sure whether you could get Fool from the BM).
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Chris is me

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Re: Renaissance Previews #4: Flag Bearer, Swashbuckler, Treasurer
« Reply #55 on: September 27, 2018, 11:17:33 am »
0

Not liking Flag Bearer open on 4/3 as you immediately draw 6 and get a bad shuffle at the start of turn 2, I'll pass.

A kinda-bad shuffle that ends two turns early isn't exactly worse than a good shuffle much later. Your Turn 3 hand is no worse than $4, and if it is $4 that means your turn 2 hand was a $5. That's totally fine.

Good cards missing the shuffle can suck, but you don't need to be so terrified of it that you completely ignore openings like this.
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J Reggie

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Re: Renaissance Previews #4: Flag Bearer, Swashbuckler, Treasurer
« Reply #56 on: September 27, 2018, 11:21:17 am »
0

Can you take the treasure chest if Swashbuckler doesn't give you coffers, and you just have leftover coffers from previous turns?

I haven't played with these cards yet but that's what I was wondering. I hope this doesn't start another Fool debate, but I do find it a little ambiguous.

Also: I predict projects will be blue and have a selection process more like events and landmarks. Watch me be totally wrong!

aku_chi

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Re: Renaissance Previews #4: Flag Bearer, Swashbuckler, Treasurer
« Reply #57 on: September 27, 2018, 11:26:02 am »
+9

Can you take the treasure chest if Swashbuckler doesn't give you coffers, and you just have leftover coffers from previous turns?

You cannot.  It's all after the "If your discard pile has any cards in it:" clause.  Also, Donald X. stated this explicitly in the OP: "... but you still need a discard pile at least once to get the Treasure Chest".
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J Reggie

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Re: Renaissance Previews #4: Flag Bearer, Swashbuckler, Treasurer
« Reply #58 on: September 27, 2018, 11:30:19 am »
0

Can you take the treasure chest if Swashbuckler doesn't give you coffers, and you just have leftover coffers from previous turns?

You cannot.  It's all after the "If your discard pile has any cards in it:" clause.  Also, Donald X. stated this explicitly in the OP: "... but you still need a discard pile at least once to get the Treasure Chest".

Ok I did a good job reading. Of course, it was 3AM for me when I read that, so my comprehension was not the best.

crj

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Re: Renaissance Previews #4: Flag Bearer, Swashbuckler, Treasurer
« Reply #59 on: September 27, 2018, 11:33:49 am »
0

Also: I predict projects will be blue
It's a little tricky to tell from online artwork: are Artifacts Duration orange, Reserve tan, or a new colour not previously used?

Personally, I always felt that the Landmarks which "react" to in-game events should have been blue, with only the game-end scoring ones being green, but there we go.

Besides Reaction blue and whichever of orange and tan Artifacts aren't, what else is left for landscape card-shaped objects? Ruins brown? Nocturnal black?
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jamfamsam

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Re: Renaissance Previews #4: Flag Bearer, Swashbuckler, Treasurer
« Reply #60 on: September 27, 2018, 11:37:05 am »
+2

Lurker in the game with Flag Bearer is the mini-game of controlling the Flag on steroids.

Swashbuckler harder to trigger than I thought.
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J Reggie

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Re: Renaissance Previews #4: Flag Bearer, Swashbuckler, Treasurer
« Reply #61 on: September 27, 2018, 11:39:37 am »
+1

Also: I predict projects will be blue
It's a little tricky to tell from online artwork: are Artifacts Duration orange, Reserve tan, or a new colour not previously used?

Personally, I always felt that the Landmarks which "react" to in-game events should have been blue, with only the game-end scoring ones being green, but there we go.

Besides Reaction blue and whichever of orange and tan Artifacts aren't, what else is left for landscape card-shaped objects? Ruins brown? Nocturnal black?

I think, as with all the landscape things, Artifacts are a slightly different color from any cards. They look closest to reserves to me though.

I just realized, does Treasurer mean that Overgrown Estate and Hovel are once again the only cards you can never gain? I guess you could gain the Heirlooms with Thief, but who's playing with Thief in 2018?

Redly

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Re: Renaissance Previews #4: Flag Bearer, Swashbuckler, Treasurer
« Reply #62 on: September 27, 2018, 11:46:02 am »
+2

Nice, three more cards that Lord Rattington has no idea what to do with!

From my last game, I can attest that Lord Rattington knows exactly what he wants to do with Flag Bearer ;_;
Namely: buy them a ton to demand victory in the flag mini-game
Light help us if he ever learns how to trash properly x_x
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ThetaSigma12

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Re: Renaissance Previews #4: Flag Bearer, Swashbuckler, Treasurer
« Reply #63 on: September 27, 2018, 11:46:51 am »
+1

It's a little tricky to tell from online artwork: are Artifacts Duration orange, Reserve tan, or a new colour not previously used?

Here's the online template. A sort of light tan I suppose?


And I predict that the project template will be landscape with a sort of faint pink background.
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J Reggie

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Re: Renaissance Previews #4: Flag Bearer, Swashbuckler, Treasurer
« Reply #64 on: September 27, 2018, 11:49:06 am »
0

It's a little tricky to tell from online artwork: are Artifacts Duration orange, Reserve tan, or a new colour not previously used?
And I predict that the project template will be landscape with a sort of faint pink background.

Isn't that already States?

AJD

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Re: Renaissance Previews #4: Flag Bearer, Swashbuckler, Treasurer
« Reply #65 on: September 27, 2018, 11:50:23 am »
+6

I just realized, does Treasurer mean that Overgrown Estate and Hovel are once again the only cards you can never gain? I guess you could gain the Heirlooms with Thief, but who's playing with Thief in 2018?

I don't think it's possible to gain Bat.
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vishwathg

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Re: Renaissance Previews #4: Flag Bearer, Swashbuckler, Treasurer
« Reply #66 on: September 27, 2018, 11:53:51 am »
0

Can you take the treasure chest if Swashbuckler doesn't give you coffers, and you just have leftover coffers from previous turns?

I haven't played with these cards yet but that's what I was wondering. I hope this doesn't start another Fool debate, but I do find it a little ambiguous.

Also: I predict projects will be blue and have a selection process more like events and landmarks. Watch me be totally wrong!

When you click "Kingdom" on dominion.games, there is a section labeled "Events, Landmarks, and Projects" and another labeled "States and Artifacts."
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ThetaSigma12

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Re: Renaissance Previews #4: Flag Bearer, Swashbuckler, Treasurer
« Reply #67 on: September 27, 2018, 11:56:44 am »
0

Isn't that already States?

Nah, states are kinda Brownish/whiteish:


Also, I predict they won't have as dark of a bar at the bottom.
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Minotaur

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Re: Renaissance Previews #4: Flag Bearer, Swashbuckler, Treasurer
« Reply #68 on: September 27, 2018, 12:16:38 pm »
+10

So you employ a flag bearer, and they bring their own flag with them. You get the flag. Nice.
Then after a while you realise you don't have the flag anymore, so you make your flag bearer redundant, only to find that the flag was hidden in their desk drawer. So now you have the flag again. Nice.

It's more like a classic tragedy.

It starts off so well.  Flag Bearer helps you get your flag.  It's good for a while.  Then one day the flag is gone.  You give him so many second chances, but nothing.  He had one job!

One day, you've had enough of the betrayal, the rumors that he's working for the enemy.  You stab him in the heart.  He'll feed the rats with the others, you think, as he makes his stupid I'm-being-stabbed face.

Then with shaky fingers, he pulls the flag out of his pocket.  "I've... been looking for so long...  I finally... I want you... to have... this......"
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TheOthin

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Re: Renaissance Previews #4: Flag Bearer, Swashbuckler, Treasurer
« Reply #69 on: September 27, 2018, 12:48:21 pm »
+1

Swashbuckler + Mountain Village can be complicated. They're a village/smithy pair, and they both like having cards in your discard pile, but Mountain Village takes cards out of your discard pile, and you want to play villages before Swashbuckler. So Mountain Village can get forced to eat Swashbuckler's fuel.
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DDL

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Re: Renaissance Previews #4: Flag Bearer, Swashbuckler, Treasurer
« Reply #70 on: September 27, 2018, 01:09:19 pm »
0

Swashbuckler + Mountain Village can be complicated. They're a village/smithy pair, and they both like having cards in your discard pile, but Mountain Village takes cards out of your discard pile, and you want to play villages before Swashbuckler. So Mountain Village can get forced to eat Swashbuckler's fuel.

The catch is that MV will also line-up the Swashbuckler you discarded in the previous turn so it'll come in a turn where you have a discard pile. With extra actions to boot (if you have more MVs).  This mitigates the fact that Swashbuckler will often be wasted when if comes at the start of the shuffle.
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TheOthin

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Re: Renaissance Previews #4: Flag Bearer, Swashbuckler, Treasurer
« Reply #71 on: September 27, 2018, 01:34:40 pm »
0

Swashbuckler + Mountain Village can be complicated. They're a village/smithy pair, and they both like having cards in your discard pile, but Mountain Village takes cards out of your discard pile, and you want to play villages before Swashbuckler. So Mountain Village can get forced to eat Swashbuckler's fuel.

The catch is that MV will also line-up the Swashbuckler you discarded in the previous turn so it'll come in a turn where you have a discard pile. With extra actions to boot (if you have more MVs).  This mitigates the fact that Swashbuckler will often be wasted when if comes at the start of the shuffle.

Only if you're not drawing your deck, which tends to be feasible on a board with both of them.
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Violet CLM

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Re: Renaissance Previews #4: Flag Bearer, Swashbuckler, Treasurer
« Reply #72 on: September 27, 2018, 01:43:27 pm »
+2

We've known what Projects look like since the start of the week.
« Last Edit: September 27, 2018, 02:05:10 pm by Violet CLM »
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Jeebus

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Re: Renaissance Previews #4: Flag Bearer, Swashbuckler, Treasurer
« Reply #73 on: September 27, 2018, 02:03:58 pm »
0

Actually, I wasn't aware that "drawing your hand" was a term with a specific definition. It obviously has to apply to drawing a new hand of cards during Clean-up. It probably doesn't apply to mid-turn discard-your-hand-and-draw effects (Guide, Minion, Scholar). But what about drawing after Donate?

Outpost says: "you only draw 3 cards for your next hand", and Expedition says: "Draw 2 extra cards for your next hand". The rulebook refers to "draw a new hand" as what you do during Clean-up. So apparently "draw hand", (and variously "draw new hand", "draw next hand") is the term applied only to the drawing of your hand in the Clean-up phase.

Donate happens after Clean-up (after your turn). So if you had Flag and bought Donate, you would have six cards in hand, then perform Donate, then draw 5 cards.

Yes, this is the only possible interpretation, otherwise Minion and Scholar would be affected by Outpost played earlier in the turn, which is not the case. (There's no difference between the "+x cards" on Minion, Scholar and Donate. But back to the original question:

Is Flag essentially the same as The River's Gift (+1 Card at the end of this turn), but worded differently (besides The River's Gift being one-shot)?

It's not technically the same, because Flag (like Outpost and Expedition) happens in Clean-up, while The River's Gift happens afterwards. But I don't think that there are any cards currently that can make that distinction matter. So I think for practical purposes it's the same. (The only cards that do anything at the same time as River's Gift are: Baths, Possession [return trashed cards], Necromancer [unflip cards in trash], Save and Faithful Hound.)

markus

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Re: Renaissance Previews #4: Flag Bearer, Swashbuckler, Treasurer
« Reply #74 on: September 27, 2018, 02:25:18 pm »
+1

River's Gift can make you draw a card at the end of somebody else's turn. You don't do that when capturing the flag during an opponent's turn. (It could (would have to) be phrased "at the end of your turns" of course.)
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