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Author Topic: Renaissance Previews #4: Flag Bearer, Swashbuckler, Treasurer  (Read 6359 times)

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Donald X.

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Renaissance Previews #4: Flag Bearer, Swashbuckler, Treasurer
« on: September 27, 2018, 03:00:10 am »
+34

Artifacts are abilities only one player can have. When you take the Flag, you take it from whoever had it, if someone had it. So, they go back and forth. They're like Lost in the Woods (from Nocturne); hey could I do more with that kind of thing, I thought, and I could. There are five Artifacts total, and here are three of them and their parent cards.



Flag Bearer comes with a Flag. If someone takes it away from you, just buy another one. How many Flag Bearers can your deck tolerate, anyway? Well you can also trash them to get the Flag, so that won't always be an issue.

Swashbuckler is trickier. All that stuff after the colon only happens if you have cards in your discard pile - which is harder than it sounds. Part of it is, you draw the three cards before checking. The Coffers tokens don't have to have come from Swashbuckler specifically, so sometimes that helps, but you still need a discard pile at least once to get the Treasure Chest.

Treasurer can put you down a Treasure, up a Treasure, or even on Treasures. And the Key is like a Treasury. So it's sure to be a card you treasure.
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J Reggie

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Re: Renaissance Previews #4: Flag Bearer, Swashbuckler, Treasurer
« Reply #1 on: September 27, 2018, 03:12:06 am »
+10

These are really exciting!

But oh boy, Treasurer/Lamp...

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Re: Renaissance Previews #4: Flag Bearer, Swashbuckler, Treasurer
« Reply #2 on: September 27, 2018, 03:31:15 am »
+7

So you employ a flag bearer, and they bring their own flag with them. You get the flag. Nice.
Then after a while you realise you don't have the flag anymore, so you make your flag bearer redundant, only to find that the flag was hidden in their desk drawer. So now you have the flag again. Nice.
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MrFrog

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Re: Renaissance Previews #4: Flag Bearer, Swashbuckler, Treasurer
« Reply #3 on: September 27, 2018, 03:36:18 am »
+12

Finally, a Treasure Chest expansion!
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Re: Renaissance Previews #4: Flag Bearer, Swashbuckler, Treasurer
« Reply #4 on: September 27, 2018, 03:42:20 am »
+4

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Ethan

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Re: Renaissance Previews #4: Flag Bearer, Swashbuckler, Treasurer
« Reply #5 on: September 27, 2018, 03:56:02 am »
+1

So, if we can manage Lost in the Woods without artifact, why should we introduce this term? just to make them items to be owned?
maybe we can change flag into 'flag fluttering' or sth. to make it a state.
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Donald X.

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Re: Renaissance Previews #4: Flag Bearer, Swashbuckler, Treasurer
« Reply #6 on: September 27, 2018, 04:00:44 am »
+10

So, if we can manage Lost in the Woods without artifact, why should we introduce this term? just to make them items to be owned?
maybe we can change flag into 'flag fluttering' or sth. to make it a state.
Artifact was a better term, and I didn't feel like I had to stick to a poor precedent. Artifact helps convey that it's a thing only one player will have.
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Re: Renaissance Previews #4: Flag Bearer, Swashbuckler, Treasurer
« Reply #7 on: September 27, 2018, 04:03:27 am »
+5

I like it that there are more cards that care about the discard, so draw-your-deck strategies get a bit more complicated.
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Re: Renaissance Previews #4: Flag Bearer, Swashbuckler, Treasurer
« Reply #8 on: September 27, 2018, 04:17:56 am »
+4

Five Artifacts and two Attacks already means seven first-order interaction cards.

Swashbuckler is another interesting use of Coffers, like Butcher.

Plus all of these force decisions: how many Flag Bearers do I want? Should I save my Coffers? Do I gain a Copper to reach that price point? I like those. Plus I like 'do one of these'-cards in general.

This has been the most exciting preview for me so far.
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Re: Renaissance Previews #4: Flag Bearer, Swashbuckler, Treasurer
« Reply #9 on: September 27, 2018, 04:46:41 am »
+2

Will lost in Woods become an artifact in the next prutning then?
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Re: Renaissance Previews #4: Flag Bearer, Swashbuckler, Treasurer
« Reply #10 on: September 27, 2018, 04:53:50 am »
+1

Ah well. Looks like the Hollywood Pirate has made an appearance in Renaissance. I really wish some step in the artwork process was better at weeding out such anomalies.

Nocturne's Lost in the Woods had the signal disadvantage of being related to Fool, which limited how much we got to mess about with it. I'm looking forward to playing with that mechanic in more benign forms!

It's pretty clear the trashing you can't turn off is going to be one of the other two Artifacts, isn't it?
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Donald X.

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Re: Renaissance Previews #4: Flag Bearer, Swashbuckler, Treasurer
« Reply #11 on: September 27, 2018, 04:54:27 am »
+2

Will lost in Woods become an artifact in the next prutning then?
No.
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Re: Renaissance Previews #4: Flag Bearer, Swashbuckler, Treasurer
« Reply #12 on: September 27, 2018, 04:57:04 am »
0

Lost opportunity for a False Map artifact.
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Re: Renaissance Previews #4: Flag Bearer, Swashbuckler, Treasurer
« Reply #13 on: September 27, 2018, 05:25:42 am »
+1

I liked most of the cards so far and these are also exciting. However, I'm somewhat concerned the cards introduced today add to the number of cards you buy, just to prevent an opponent from getting/keeping something. Of course, it's part of the game, but it tends to be more enjoyable developing your own strategy (taking into consideration what the opponent is doing), rather than being forced in a particular direction. Maybe the cards are exciting enough to compensate for it in the long run, but I am worried about games with them being less fun because of this element.
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Re: Renaissance Previews #4: Flag Bearer, Swashbuckler, Treasurer
« Reply #14 on: September 27, 2018, 05:33:15 am »
0

I think the answer will be no, but it's good to ask anyway: are Artifacts considered part of your deck, for Gardens and similar purposes?
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Re: Renaissance Previews #4: Flag Bearer, Swashbuckler, Treasurer
« Reply #15 on: September 27, 2018, 05:39:21 am »
0

I wonder it there is a VP artifact.
Not sure how often in 2 player game it will be the right play to steal the opponent's artifact rith away they took it. This might make the game very boring and luck based
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Re: Renaissance Previews #4: Flag Bearer, Swashbuckler, Treasurer
« Reply #16 on: September 27, 2018, 05:40:11 am »
+1

I think the answer will be no, but it's good to ask anyway: are Artifacts considered part of your deck, for Gardens and similar purposes?

They’re not cards, only card-shaped objects. :-p
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Ethan

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Re: Renaissance Previews #4: Flag Bearer, Swashbuckler, Treasurer
« Reply #17 on: September 27, 2018, 05:42:17 am »
+2

I liked most of the cards so far and these are also exciting. However, I'm somewhat concerned the cards introduced today add to the number of cards you buy, just to prevent an opponent from getting/keeping something. Of course, it's part of the game, but it tends to be more enjoyable developing your own strategy (taking into consideration what the opponent is doing), rather than being forced in a particular direction. Maybe the cards are exciting enough to compensate for it in the long run, but I am worried about games with them being less fun because of this element.
I would say they make game more political rather than boring.
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Donald X.

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Re: Renaissance Previews #4: Flag Bearer, Swashbuckler, Treasurer
« Reply #18 on: September 27, 2018, 06:10:31 am »
+1

I think the answer will be no, but it's good to ask anyway: are Artifacts considered part of your deck, for Gardens and similar purposes?
They are not cards and not part of decks.
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Re: Renaissance Previews #4: Flag Bearer, Swashbuckler, Treasurer
« Reply #19 on: September 27, 2018, 06:13:01 am »
0

Is Flag essentially the same as The River's Gift (+1 Card at the end of this turn), but worded differently (besides The River's Gift being one-shot)?
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Re: Renaissance Previews #4: Flag Bearer, Swashbuckler, Treasurer
« Reply #20 on: September 27, 2018, 06:25:39 am »
0

Treasurer + Haunted Mirror
Treasurer + Rocks
« Last Edit: September 27, 2018, 06:37:32 am by ossiangrr »
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Re: Renaissance Previews #4: Flag Bearer, Swashbuckler, Treasurer
« Reply #21 on: September 27, 2018, 06:48:33 am »
0

Treasurer + Haunted Mirror

with a slim Ghost pile.
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Re: Renaissance Previews #4: Flag Bearer, Swashbuckler, Treasurer
« Reply #22 on: September 27, 2018, 06:58:29 am »
0

Is there someone lurking in my treasury?

... oh no, I think they just work here.
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faust

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Re: Renaissance Previews #4: Flag Bearer, Swashbuckler, Treasurer
« Reply #23 on: September 27, 2018, 07:02:01 am »
0

Also I wonder if some artifacts are going to be used by more than one card. Flag Bearer and Treasurer have a very direct connection to their artifacts, Treasure Chest seems like the most promising multi-use artifact flavor-wise.
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benedettosoxfan

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Re: Renaissance Previews #4: Flag Bearer, Swashbuckler, Treasurer
« Reply #24 on: September 27, 2018, 07:04:45 am »
+2

Initial observations just by looking at the cards:
1. Treasurer doesn't go with treasure chest and key is basically treasury. This will take a while to get used to.
2. If both players open 4/3, player 2 can guarantee a $5 hand on turn 3  (barring any attacks) by opening flag bearer. Player 1 can do the same thing as long as player 2 doesn't buy flag bearer on turn 1. In games without discard attacks, you HAVE to contest the flag right? We're talking about playing a hireling on turn 1 (!). A terminal silver is nothing special but if you go the whole game with a 6 card hand compared to an opponents 5 card hand, that's a total game changer. I know alchemist is kind of the same thing and there are attacks which will make it less relevant, but this is a significant advantage that you can get as early as turn 1. Interesting little mini-game going on with this card.
« Last Edit: September 27, 2018, 07:19:54 am by benedettosoxfan »
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Re: Renaissance Previews #4: Flag Bearer, Swashbuckler, Treasurer
« Reply #25 on: September 27, 2018, 07:18:25 am »
+2

Well, I guessed States would return, and I suppose I was half right?
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Re: Renaissance Previews #4: Flag Bearer, Swashbuckler, Treasurer
« Reply #26 on: September 27, 2018, 07:56:37 am »
+6

Plaza is a truly excellent Village for Swashbuckler.
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Re: Renaissance Previews #4: Flag Bearer, Swashbuckler, Treasurer
« Reply #27 on: September 27, 2018, 08:00:07 am »
+1

Flag Bearer and Treasurer are simple cards that come with simple Artifacts. Treasurer is nice because it does a bunch of things and the Artifact is an aside.

The Flag Bearer really pushed for a sort of tug of war because the Flag is really impactful. In games without sources of extra actions though, the Flag Bearers get in the way quickly.

Swashbuckler is a $5 Smithy with a potential +1 Coffers. That's already neat. If you really want, you can try hoarding the Coffers tokens for the treasure chest, but I don't know how often you'd want to, especially given the opportunity cost of not spending the Coffers. Then again, it is the hardest to contest if you are behind of Coffers.
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Re: Renaissance Previews #4: Flag Bearer, Swashbuckler, Treasurer
« Reply #28 on: September 27, 2018, 08:03:34 am »
0

Flag Bearer: Definitely tricky to figure this one out. The Flag is amazing of course, but then the card itself is a piece of junk that takes up that extra hand space...

Swashbuckler: Why does everything Pirate-related have to be weak?  :( Well, at least it's not borderline useless, like that other card...

Treasurer: This looks really good on first glance. Copper trashing is usually welcome.

Also, I'm really loving the artwork on all of these. I haven't seen a single piece of artwork I actively dislike yet; the worst ones I'm just ambivalent to.
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Re: Renaissance Previews #4: Flag Bearer, Swashbuckler, Treasurer
« Reply #29 on: September 27, 2018, 08:10:05 am »
+1

Swashbuckler. Hubba Hubba.
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Re: Renaissance Previews #4: Flag Bearer, Swashbuckler, Treasurer
« Reply #30 on: September 27, 2018, 08:15:52 am »
+2

Nice, three more cards that Lord Rattington has no idea what to do with!
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Re: Renaissance Previews #4: Flag Bearer, Swashbuckler, Treasurer
« Reply #31 on: September 27, 2018, 08:37:04 am »
+1

If you already have the Key, and you play Treasurer — and you have nothing in your hand that you want to trash, and only Coppers in the trash pile — you can still “take” the Key, even though you technically never lost it (whether in the Woods, or elsewhere), right? 

I only ask because Fool states “If you do not have Lost in the Woods, you take it”.  Now obviously that would be way too much text to adapt it for this card, but since you must do one of the three things, since you already have it, can you “take” it, or do you have to do one of the other two options?
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Re: Renaissance Previews #4: Flag Bearer, Swashbuckler, Treasurer
« Reply #32 on: September 27, 2018, 08:39:55 am »
+3

If you already have the Key, and you play Treasurer — and you have nothing in your hand that you want to trash, and only Coppers in the trash pile — you can still “take” the Key, even though you technically never lost it (whether in the Woods, or elsewhere), right? 

I only ask because Fool states “If you do not have Lost in the Woods, you take it”.  Now obviously that would be way too much text to adapt it for this card, but since you must do one of the three things, since you already have it, can you “take” it, or do you have to do one of the other two options?

It's a "choose one" type ability, which means that you can choose an option that you can't do, and then fail to do it.
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Re: Renaissance Previews #4: Flag Bearer, Swashbuckler, Treasurer
« Reply #33 on: September 27, 2018, 08:42:33 am »
+2

Flag Bearer: Definitely tricky to figure this one out. The Flag is amazing of course, but then the card itself is a piece of junk that takes up that extra hand space...

Swashbuckler: Why does everything Pirate-related have to be weak?  :( Well, at least it's not borderline useless, like that other card...

Treasurer: This looks really good on first glance. Copper trashing is usually welcome.

Also, I'm really loving the artwork on all of these. I haven't seen a single piece of artwork I actively dislike yet; the worst ones I'm just ambivalent to.

Swashbuckler has a lower bound for how weak it can possibly be given that it is a Smithy+ for $5. If you don't want the Treasure Chest then you can spend excess Coffers Tokens. If you can reliably play four of them in a turn while having a discard pile then probably you have enough draw to accomodate the extra Gold.

About the art, eh Ducat is all "Notice me! I am a big yellow blob!" And Villain I only noticed just now is probably sitting on a step and not sitting on his knees with split legs like a guy who just got stabbed. That weird out of focus thing (shoulder?) on the bottom left threw me off. The Priest also has some weird yellow dog background like the Isotropic Adventurer art. I think other than those yeah the art is cool in this set.
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Re: Renaissance Previews #4: Flag Bearer, Swashbuckler, Treasurer
« Reply #34 on: September 27, 2018, 08:56:23 am »
+3

If an Ambassador causes everyone else to gain Flagbearers, who ends up with the flag?
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Re: Renaissance Previews #4: Flag Bearer, Swashbuckler, Treasurer
« Reply #35 on: September 27, 2018, 09:02:00 am »
+8

The one who gains Bearer last, in clockwise order.
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Re: Renaissance Previews #4: Flag Bearer, Swashbuckler, Treasurer
« Reply #36 on: September 27, 2018, 09:10:39 am »
+2

Flagbearer looks really compelling on the surface, but if you're the first one to get it, your opponent can take the flag and you're left with a bad card unless you have a way to trash it. And you can take it back but that's more Flagbearers you need to junk up your deck with, and one way or another you end up behind in the flag fight.

Interesting stuff, and makes sense with the low attack density.
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Re: Renaissance Previews #4: Flag Bearer, Swashbuckler, Treasurer
« Reply #37 on: September 27, 2018, 09:17:18 am »
+4

Man this set has all the flavor. Brb, gotta Recruit more Flagbearers
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Re: Renaissance Previews #4: Flag Bearer, Swashbuckler, Treasurer
« Reply #38 on: September 27, 2018, 09:18:41 am »
+2

Swashbuckler: Why does everything Pirate-related have to be weak?  :( Well, at least it's not borderline useless, like that other card...

My impression is that it's stronger than it looks. With any sort of discard enabler (e.g. Warehouse, Plaza, Stables, Militia) it's already +3 cards, +1 coffers. With other sources of Coffers, you can gain a Gold on every turn AND you can still spend the Coffers afterwards.

Not sure if it's better than Werewolf, Rabble, Patrol, Journeyman, but it definitely might be. Probably not as good as Torturer and Margrave.
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Re: Renaissance Previews #4: Flag Bearer, Swashbuckler, Treasurer
« Reply #39 on: September 27, 2018, 09:30:11 am »
0

If you already have the Key, and you play Treasurer — and you have nothing in your hand that you want to trash, and only Coppers in the trash pile — you can still “take” the Key, even though you technically never lost it (whether in the Woods, or elsewhere), right? 

I only ask because Fool states “If you do not have Lost in the Woods, you take it”.  Now obviously that would be way too much text to adapt it for this card, but since you must do one of the three things, since you already have it, can you “take” it, or do you have to do one of the other two options?


It's a "choose one" type ability, which means that you can choose an option that you can't do, and then fail to do it.

That makes sense. Thanks.
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Re: Renaissance Previews #4: Flag Bearer, Swashbuckler, Treasurer
« Reply #40 on: September 27, 2018, 09:39:47 am »
+2

Does the key fit the lock of the treasure chest?

If you're the owner of the swashbuckled treasure chest then go ahead, take out a bar of gold every turn. But all that gold will weigh you down.
On the other hand, if you're the trusted treasurer with the key, well no-one will notice if you just sneak out one coin at a time. Spend it, no questions asked.
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Re: Renaissance Previews #4: Flag Bearer, Swashbuckler, Treasurer
« Reply #41 on: September 27, 2018, 09:45:06 am »
+2

Swashbuckler: Why does everything Pirate-related have to be weak?  :( Well, at least it's not borderline useless, like that other card...

My impression is that it's stronger than it looks. With any sort of discard enabler (e.g. Warehouse, Plaza, Stables, Militia) it's already +3 cards, +1 coffers. With other sources of Coffers, you can gain a Gold on every turn AND you can still spend the Coffers afterwards.

Not sure if it's better than Werewolf, Rabble, Patrol, Journeyman, but it definitely might be. Probably not as good as Torturer and Margrave.

Most midturn gainers will work as enablers as well. Workshop variants, treasure gainers like Squire and Amulet, Bandit Camp, stuff like that.
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trivialknot

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Re: Renaissance Previews #4: Flag Bearer, Swashbuckler, Treasurer
« Reply #42 on: September 27, 2018, 10:01:34 am »
+1

I had been hoping for this eventuality, ever since Fool!

Flagbearer - This makes me imagine Flagbearer slogs, where Flagbearer is the best $4-cost card because of the advantage it takes away from your opponent.  I'm sure it doesn't happen often, if at all, but I hope it happens sometimes at least a little.  I like that Flag is friendly, so that if both players buy one, then they both get 6 cards.

Swashbuckler - Um that art.  Although, I looked up the word, and it seems that "swashbuckler" is a heroic archetype in fiction, so I guess depicting a Hollywood pirate is just about right.  Seems like it shines most in a good stuff deck, where you're more likely to have a discard pile, and you're more happy with gold-gaining.  Oh, and if everyone collects Coffers, everyone gets gold, yay!

Is Swashbuckler the card that cares about shuffling?

Treasurer - So it's like a Moneylender, but you can either lend or borrow.  The key, unlike the other artifacts, is unfriendly.  You can reach a point where players swap the key and nobody gets the bonus.
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trivialknot

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Re: Renaissance Previews #4: Flag Bearer, Swashbuckler, Treasurer
« Reply #43 on: September 27, 2018, 10:13:38 am »
0

Can you take the treasure chest if Swashbuckler doesn't give you coffers, and you just have leftover coffers from previous turns?
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samath

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Re: Renaissance Previews #4: Flag Bearer, Swashbuckler, Treasurer
« Reply #44 on: September 27, 2018, 10:14:56 am »
+1

Games with markus today!

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Anders

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Re: Renaissance Previews #4: Flag Bearer, Swashbuckler, Treasurer
« Reply #45 on: September 27, 2018, 10:22:39 am »
+4

I predict that the "trasher you can't turn off" that was mentioned in the teaser is an artifact that says "At the beginning of your turn, trash a card from your hand". 
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mikechike

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Re: Renaissance Previews #4: Flag Bearer, Swashbuckler, Treasurer
« Reply #46 on: September 27, 2018, 10:26:25 am »
+2

Not liking Flag Bearer open on 4/3 as you immediately draw 6 and get a bad shuffle at the start of turn 2, I'll pass.
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crj

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Re: Renaissance Previews #4: Flag Bearer, Swashbuckler, Treasurer
« Reply #47 on: September 27, 2018, 10:27:57 am »
+3

Is Flag essentially the same as The River's Gift (+1 Card at the end of this turn), but worded differently (besides The River's Gift being one-shot)?
...maybe?

Actually, I wasn't aware that "drawing your hand" was a term with a specific definition. It obviously has to apply to drawing a new hand of cards during Clean-up. It probably doesn't apply to mid-turn discard-your-hand-and-draw effects (Guide, Minion, Scholar). But what about drawing after Donate?
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Re: Renaissance Previews #4: Flag Bearer, Swashbuckler, Treasurer
« Reply #48 on: September 27, 2018, 10:29:30 am »
+1

I just played a game that had Swashbuckler, Ducat and Mountain Village.

It was amazing. At some point my deck basically worked like a pendulum. One turn build a discard pile, gain a gold and buy a province, the other turn draw everything, gain another gold and buy 2 provinces.

Swashbuckler's artifact thing is hard to pull off, but not that hard if you have an extra source of coffers. It has terrible sinergy with trashed decks though.
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SuperHans

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Re: Renaissance Previews #4: Flag Bearer, Swashbuckler, Treasurer
« Reply #49 on: September 27, 2018, 10:30:11 am »
+3

Flagbearer is an interesting opening move at 4/3. There is a 1/6 chance you draw the flagbearer on Turn 2, which of course isn't great odds, but there is a 4/6 chance you draw $4. Odds are high that you will have $4, and if you're lucky $5, and if you're unlucky $3. If your opponent does not buy a flagbearer Turn 1, then you are drawing 6 again Turn 3 and so on.
« Last Edit: September 27, 2018, 10:31:31 am by SuperHans »
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crj

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Re: Renaissance Previews #4: Flag Bearer, Swashbuckler, Treasurer
« Reply #50 on: September 27, 2018, 10:36:33 am »
+1

Not liking Flag Bearer open on 4/3 as you immediately draw 6 and get a bad shuffle at the start of turn 2, I'll pass.
I'm not certain that's a bad shuffle. If you get $4 on T1 and buy Flag:
  • 1/6 chance: $3 on T2, $6 on T3
  • 4/6 chance $4 on T2, $5 on T3
  • 1/6 chance $6 on T2, $4 on T3
(Edit: braino fixed)

If your opponent lets you keep the flag, your T3 will probably be even better, but the certainty of hitting $5 on or before T3 with 50% chance of hitting $6 seems like a good thing - probably good enough to compensate for the slightly messed-up shuffling.
« Last Edit: September 27, 2018, 11:27:49 am by crj »
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SuperHans

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Re: Renaissance Previews #4: Flag Bearer, Swashbuckler, Treasurer
« Reply #51 on: September 27, 2018, 10:39:50 am »
0

Not liking Flag Bearer open on 4/3 as you immediately draw 6 and get a bad shuffle at the start of turn 2, I'll pass.
I'm not certain that's a bad shuffle. If you get $4 on T1 and buy Flag:
  • 2/6 chance: $3 on T2, $6 on T3
  • 3/6 chance $4 on T2, $5 on T3
  • 1/6 chance $6 on T2, $4 on T3
If your opponent lets you keep the flag, your T3 will probably be even better, but the certainty of hitting $5 on or before T3 with 50% chance of hitting $6 seems like a good thing - probably good enough to compensate for the slightly messed-up shuffling.
The odds are even better than that for Turn 2. There is only a 1/6 chance you draw $3. 4/6 chance you draw $4. 1/6 chance you draw $5.
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dbclick

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Re: Renaissance Previews #4: Flag Bearer, Swashbuckler, Treasurer
« Reply #52 on: September 27, 2018, 10:57:36 am »
+2

Actually, I wasn't aware that "drawing your hand" was a term with a specific definition. It obviously has to apply to drawing a new hand of cards during Clean-up. It probably doesn't apply to mid-turn discard-your-hand-and-draw effects (Guide, Minion, Scholar). But what about drawing after Donate?

Outpost says: "you only draw 3 cards for your next hand", and Expedition says: "Draw 2 extra cards for your next hand". The rulebook refers to "draw a new hand" as what you do during Clean-up. So apparently "draw hand", (and variously "draw new hand", "draw next hand") is the term applied only to the drawing of your hand in the Clean-up phase.

Donate happens after Clean-up (after your turn). So if you had Flag and bought Donate, you would have six cards in hand, then perform Donate, then draw 5 cards.
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jupiter

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Re: Renaissance Previews #4: Flag Bearer, Swashbuckler, Treasurer
« Reply #53 on: September 27, 2018, 11:06:34 am »
+9

These cards all become more powerful when they're in the Black Market. Flag Bearer is superior to Hireling in the majority of cases.
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Re: Renaissance Previews #4: Flag Bearer, Swashbuckler, Treasurer
« Reply #54 on: September 27, 2018, 11:15:41 am »
0

These cards all become more powerful when they're in the Black Market. Flag Bearer is superior to Hireling in the majority of cases.
But they would probably not be in the Black Market on ShuffleIT as they require extra components (I think? I am not actually sure whether you could get Fool from the BM).
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Chris is me

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Re: Renaissance Previews #4: Flag Bearer, Swashbuckler, Treasurer
« Reply #55 on: September 27, 2018, 11:17:33 am »
0

Not liking Flag Bearer open on 4/3 as you immediately draw 6 and get a bad shuffle at the start of turn 2, I'll pass.

A kinda-bad shuffle that ends two turns early isn't exactly worse than a good shuffle much later. Your Turn 3 hand is no worse than $4, and if it is $4 that means your turn 2 hand was a $5. That's totally fine.

Good cards missing the shuffle can suck, but you don't need to be so terrified of it that you completely ignore openings like this.
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Re: Renaissance Previews #4: Flag Bearer, Swashbuckler, Treasurer
« Reply #56 on: September 27, 2018, 11:21:17 am »
0

Can you take the treasure chest if Swashbuckler doesn't give you coffers, and you just have leftover coffers from previous turns?

I haven't played with these cards yet but that's what I was wondering. I hope this doesn't start another Fool debate, but I do find it a little ambiguous.

Also: I predict projects will be blue and have a selection process more like events and landmarks. Watch me be totally wrong!

aku_chi

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Re: Renaissance Previews #4: Flag Bearer, Swashbuckler, Treasurer
« Reply #57 on: September 27, 2018, 11:26:02 am »
+9

Can you take the treasure chest if Swashbuckler doesn't give you coffers, and you just have leftover coffers from previous turns?

You cannot.  It's all after the "If your discard pile has any cards in it:" clause.  Also, Donald X. stated this explicitly in the OP: "... but you still need a discard pile at least once to get the Treasure Chest".
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Re: Renaissance Previews #4: Flag Bearer, Swashbuckler, Treasurer
« Reply #58 on: September 27, 2018, 11:30:19 am »
0

Can you take the treasure chest if Swashbuckler doesn't give you coffers, and you just have leftover coffers from previous turns?

You cannot.  It's all after the "If your discard pile has any cards in it:" clause.  Also, Donald X. stated this explicitly in the OP: "... but you still need a discard pile at least once to get the Treasure Chest".

Ok I did a good job reading. Of course, it was 3AM for me when I read that, so my comprehension was not the best.

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Re: Renaissance Previews #4: Flag Bearer, Swashbuckler, Treasurer
« Reply #59 on: September 27, 2018, 11:33:49 am »
0

Also: I predict projects will be blue
It's a little tricky to tell from online artwork: are Artifacts Duration orange, Reserve tan, or a new colour not previously used?

Personally, I always felt that the Landmarks which "react" to in-game events should have been blue, with only the game-end scoring ones being green, but there we go.

Besides Reaction blue and whichever of orange and tan Artifacts aren't, what else is left for landscape card-shaped objects? Ruins brown? Nocturnal black?
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Re: Renaissance Previews #4: Flag Bearer, Swashbuckler, Treasurer
« Reply #60 on: September 27, 2018, 11:37:05 am »
+2

Lurker in the game with Flag Bearer is the mini-game of controlling the Flag on steroids.

Swashbuckler harder to trigger than I thought.
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Re: Renaissance Previews #4: Flag Bearer, Swashbuckler, Treasurer
« Reply #61 on: September 27, 2018, 11:39:37 am »
+1

Also: I predict projects will be blue
It's a little tricky to tell from online artwork: are Artifacts Duration orange, Reserve tan, or a new colour not previously used?

Personally, I always felt that the Landmarks which "react" to in-game events should have been blue, with only the game-end scoring ones being green, but there we go.

Besides Reaction blue and whichever of orange and tan Artifacts aren't, what else is left for landscape card-shaped objects? Ruins brown? Nocturnal black?

I think, as with all the landscape things, Artifacts are a slightly different color from any cards. They look closest to reserves to me though.

I just realized, does Treasurer mean that Overgrown Estate and Hovel are once again the only cards you can never gain? I guess you could gain the Heirlooms with Thief, but who's playing with Thief in 2018?

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Re: Renaissance Previews #4: Flag Bearer, Swashbuckler, Treasurer
« Reply #62 on: September 27, 2018, 11:46:02 am »
+2

Nice, three more cards that Lord Rattington has no idea what to do with!

From my last game, I can attest that Lord Rattington knows exactly what he wants to do with Flag Bearer ;_;
Namely: buy them a ton to demand victory in the flag mini-game
Light help us if he ever learns how to trash properly x_x
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Re: Renaissance Previews #4: Flag Bearer, Swashbuckler, Treasurer
« Reply #63 on: September 27, 2018, 11:46:51 am »
+1

It's a little tricky to tell from online artwork: are Artifacts Duration orange, Reserve tan, or a new colour not previously used?

Here's the online template. A sort of light tan I suppose?


And I predict that the project template will be landscape with a sort of faint pink background.
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Re: Renaissance Previews #4: Flag Bearer, Swashbuckler, Treasurer
« Reply #64 on: September 27, 2018, 11:49:06 am »
0

It's a little tricky to tell from online artwork: are Artifacts Duration orange, Reserve tan, or a new colour not previously used?
And I predict that the project template will be landscape with a sort of faint pink background.

Isn't that already States?

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Re: Renaissance Previews #4: Flag Bearer, Swashbuckler, Treasurer
« Reply #65 on: September 27, 2018, 11:50:23 am »
+6

I just realized, does Treasurer mean that Overgrown Estate and Hovel are once again the only cards you can never gain? I guess you could gain the Heirlooms with Thief, but who's playing with Thief in 2018?

I don't think it's possible to gain Bat.
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Re: Renaissance Previews #4: Flag Bearer, Swashbuckler, Treasurer
« Reply #66 on: September 27, 2018, 11:53:51 am »
0

Can you take the treasure chest if Swashbuckler doesn't give you coffers, and you just have leftover coffers from previous turns?

I haven't played with these cards yet but that's what I was wondering. I hope this doesn't start another Fool debate, but I do find it a little ambiguous.

Also: I predict projects will be blue and have a selection process more like events and landmarks. Watch me be totally wrong!

When you click "Kingdom" on dominion.games, there is a section labeled "Events, Landmarks, and Projects" and another labeled "States and Artifacts."
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Re: Renaissance Previews #4: Flag Bearer, Swashbuckler, Treasurer
« Reply #67 on: September 27, 2018, 11:56:44 am »
0

Isn't that already States?

Nah, states are kinda Brownish/whiteish:


Also, I predict they won't have as dark of a bar at the bottom.
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Minotaur

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Re: Renaissance Previews #4: Flag Bearer, Swashbuckler, Treasurer
« Reply #68 on: September 27, 2018, 12:16:38 pm »
+10

So you employ a flag bearer, and they bring their own flag with them. You get the flag. Nice.
Then after a while you realise you don't have the flag anymore, so you make your flag bearer redundant, only to find that the flag was hidden in their desk drawer. So now you have the flag again. Nice.

It's more like a classic tragedy.

It starts off so well.  Flag Bearer helps you get your flag.  It's good for a while.  Then one day the flag is gone.  You give him so many second chances, but nothing.  He had one job!

One day, you've had enough of the betrayal, the rumors that he's working for the enemy.  You stab him in the heart.  He'll feed the rats with the others, you think, as he makes his stupid I'm-being-stabbed face.

Then with shaky fingers, he pulls the flag out of his pocket.  "I've... been looking for so long...  I finally... I want you... to have... this......"
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Re: Renaissance Previews #4: Flag Bearer, Swashbuckler, Treasurer
« Reply #69 on: September 27, 2018, 12:48:21 pm »
+1

Swashbuckler + Mountain Village can be complicated. They're a village/smithy pair, and they both like having cards in your discard pile, but Mountain Village takes cards out of your discard pile, and you want to play villages before Swashbuckler. So Mountain Village can get forced to eat Swashbuckler's fuel.
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Re: Renaissance Previews #4: Flag Bearer, Swashbuckler, Treasurer
« Reply #70 on: September 27, 2018, 01:09:19 pm »
0

Swashbuckler + Mountain Village can be complicated. They're a village/smithy pair, and they both like having cards in your discard pile, but Mountain Village takes cards out of your discard pile, and you want to play villages before Swashbuckler. So Mountain Village can get forced to eat Swashbuckler's fuel.

The catch is that MV will also line-up the Swashbuckler you discarded in the previous turn so it'll come in a turn where you have a discard pile. With extra actions to boot (if you have more MVs).  This mitigates the fact that Swashbuckler will often be wasted when if comes at the start of the shuffle.
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Re: Renaissance Previews #4: Flag Bearer, Swashbuckler, Treasurer
« Reply #71 on: September 27, 2018, 01:34:40 pm »
0

Swashbuckler + Mountain Village can be complicated. They're a village/smithy pair, and they both like having cards in your discard pile, but Mountain Village takes cards out of your discard pile, and you want to play villages before Swashbuckler. So Mountain Village can get forced to eat Swashbuckler's fuel.

The catch is that MV will also line-up the Swashbuckler you discarded in the previous turn so it'll come in a turn where you have a discard pile. With extra actions to boot (if you have more MVs).  This mitigates the fact that Swashbuckler will often be wasted when if comes at the start of the shuffle.

Only if you're not drawing your deck, which tends to be feasible on a board with both of them.
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Violet CLM

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Re: Renaissance Previews #4: Flag Bearer, Swashbuckler, Treasurer
« Reply #72 on: September 27, 2018, 01:43:27 pm »
+2

We've known what Projects look like since the start of the week.
« Last Edit: September 27, 2018, 02:05:10 pm by Violet CLM »
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Re: Renaissance Previews #4: Flag Bearer, Swashbuckler, Treasurer
« Reply #73 on: September 27, 2018, 02:03:58 pm »
0

Actually, I wasn't aware that "drawing your hand" was a term with a specific definition. It obviously has to apply to drawing a new hand of cards during Clean-up. It probably doesn't apply to mid-turn discard-your-hand-and-draw effects (Guide, Minion, Scholar). But what about drawing after Donate?

Outpost says: "you only draw 3 cards for your next hand", and Expedition says: "Draw 2 extra cards for your next hand". The rulebook refers to "draw a new hand" as what you do during Clean-up. So apparently "draw hand", (and variously "draw new hand", "draw next hand") is the term applied only to the drawing of your hand in the Clean-up phase.

Donate happens after Clean-up (after your turn). So if you had Flag and bought Donate, you would have six cards in hand, then perform Donate, then draw 5 cards.

Yes, this is the only possible interpretation, otherwise Minion and Scholar would be affected by Outpost played earlier in the turn, which is not the case. (There's no difference between the "+x cards" on Minion, Scholar and Donate. But back to the original question:

Is Flag essentially the same as The River's Gift (+1 Card at the end of this turn), but worded differently (besides The River's Gift being one-shot)?

It's not technically the same, because Flag (like Outpost and Expedition) happens in Clean-up, while The River's Gift happens afterwards. But I don't think that there are any cards currently that can make that distinction matter. So I think for practical purposes it's the same. (The only cards that do anything at the same time as River's Gift are: Baths, Possession [return trashed cards], Necromancer [unflip cards in trash], Save and Faithful Hound.)

markus

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Re: Renaissance Previews #4: Flag Bearer, Swashbuckler, Treasurer
« Reply #74 on: September 27, 2018, 02:25:18 pm »
+1

River's Gift can make you draw a card at the end of somebody else's turn. You don't do that when capturing the flag during an opponent's turn. (It could (would have to) be phrased "at the end of your turns" of course.)
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markus

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Re: Renaissance Previews #4: Flag Bearer, Swashbuckler, Treasurer
« Reply #75 on: September 27, 2018, 02:28:31 pm »
+8

We've known what Projects look like since the start of the week.

But I don't think that it's helpful to post unwanted spoilers even if you find them. Because it potentially means that Stef has to put more effort into hiding these things - effort that would be much better spent working on other things. Or in the worst case we couldn't have these previews in the online client.
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Re: Renaissance Previews #4: Flag Bearer, Swashbuckler, Treasurer
« Reply #76 on: September 27, 2018, 03:46:25 pm »
0

Flag bearer is my favourite art until now :p

I have trouble seeing how good Treasurer is:

The first option is a slightly better Moneylender, which isn't bad but isn't worth 5$. The second option is really good if there's Trash-for-Benefit (etc), but not all games have that, and then it's pretty useless. Which leaves the last option, which is comparable to Merchant Ship if you keep the Key for one turn, gets better if you keep it any longer, but is underwhelming if it's taken away from you before then.

I guess in games without TfB, all players buy one just to prevent someone from keeping the Key all game long.
« Last Edit: September 27, 2018, 03:48:33 pm by pacovf »
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Re: Renaissance Previews #4: Flag Bearer, Swashbuckler, Treasurer
« Reply #77 on: September 27, 2018, 03:57:44 pm »
+1

River's Gift can make you draw a card at the end of somebody else's turn. You don't do that when capturing the flag during an opponent's turn. (It could (would have to) be phrased "at the end of your turns" of course.)

Right, thanks. River's Gift would have to be phrased something like "the next time you are at the end of your turn", or better, "the next time you draw your hand".

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Re: Renaissance Previews #4: Flag Bearer, Swashbuckler, Treasurer
« Reply #78 on: September 27, 2018, 04:05:07 pm »
0

Flag bearer is my favourite art until now :p

I have trouble seeing how good Treasurer is:

The first option is a slightly better Moneylender, which isn't bad but isn't worth 5$. The second option is really good if there's Trash-for-Benefit (etc), but not all games have that, and then it's pretty useless. Which leaves the last option, which is comparable to Merchant Ship if you keep the Key for one turn, gets better if you keep it any longer, but is underwhelming if it's taken away from you before then.

I guess in games without TfB, all players buy one just to prevent someone from keeping the Key all game long.

If you can know (or guess) that the other player(s) can't play a Treasurer before the next time you do, you can use it to hide extra money in the trash that you don't need this turn via the second option, kind of like a weird terminal Crypt variant. Just played a game where that was a factor. Not always applicable, but interesting sometimes.
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Re: Renaissance Previews #4: Flag Bearer, Swashbuckler, Treasurer
« Reply #79 on: September 27, 2018, 04:34:47 pm »
+1

We've known what Projects look like since the start of the week.

But I don't think that it's helpful to post unwanted spoilers even if you find them. Because it potentially means that Stef has to put more effort into hiding these things - effort that would be much better spent working on other things. Or in the worst case we couldn't have these previews in the online client.

Hence why I only made thinly veiled "predictions". Anybody who cares enough to dig for spoilers can figure them out for themselves, poking around in the ShIT files isn't hard.
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King Leon

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Re: Renaissance Previews #4: Flag Bearer, Swashbuckler, Treasurer
« Reply #80 on: September 27, 2018, 04:49:40 pm »
0

Is this well tested in 4 player games? It seems to be very swingy and somewhat political (like buying Flagbearer just to capture the flag from another player).

Small question: Flag Key interacts with Outpost, but not with Guide, have I understood that correctly? And it is often (but not always) worse than Hireling or Princed Ruined Library in case of handsize attacks.
« Last Edit: September 27, 2018, 05:49:05 pm by King Leon »
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Jeebus

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Re: Renaissance Previews #4: Flag Bearer, Swashbuckler, Treasurer
« Reply #81 on: September 27, 2018, 05:08:53 pm »
0

Small question: Key interacts with Outpost, but not with Guide, have I understood that correctly?

Yes, "drawing your hand" only happens in Clean-up. So Outpost, Expedition, and now Key Flag.
« Last Edit: September 27, 2018, 07:21:56 pm by Jeebus »
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King Leon

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Re: Renaissance Previews #4: Flag Bearer, Swashbuckler, Treasurer
« Reply #82 on: September 27, 2018, 05:47:54 pm »
0

Small question: Key Flag interacts with Outpost, but not with Guide, have I understood that correctly?

Yes, "drawing your hand" only happens in Clean-up. So Outpost, Expedition, and now Key.

Sorry, I meant Flag, but you gave the answer I expected.
« Last Edit: September 27, 2018, 05:49:55 pm by King Leon »
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Re: Renaissance Previews #4: Flag Bearer, Swashbuckler, Treasurer
« Reply #83 on: September 27, 2018, 10:46:22 pm »
0

Bonfire / Flagbearer is interesting.
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Re: Renaissance Previews #4: Flag Bearer, Swashbuckler, Treasurer
« Reply #84 on: September 28, 2018, 01:04:47 am »
0

Is this well tested in 4 player games? It seems to be very swingy and somewhat political (like buying Flagbearer just to capture the flag from another player).

Small question: Flag Key interacts with Outpost, but not with Guide, have I understood that correctly? And it is often (but not always) worse than Hireling or Princed Ruined Library in case of handsize attacks.

The majority of playtesting is done IRL with 3-4 player games.
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Re: Renaissance Previews #4: Flag Bearer, Swashbuckler, Treasurer
« Reply #85 on: September 28, 2018, 01:22:47 am »
0

Bonfire / Flagbearer is interesting.

Just played a game with Procession & Flagbearer. That was fun.

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Re: Renaissance Previews #4: Flag Bearer, Swashbuckler, Treasurer
« Reply #86 on: September 28, 2018, 08:48:05 am »
0

If an Ambassador causes everyone else to gain Flagbearers, who ends up with the flag?

I think Attacks are usually handled clockwise starting at the left of the player. Same with interaction effects. Most of the time it doesn't matter so in practice people just do it as soon as it's played. Unless otherwise specified of course, like Masquerade.

An example: it's a four-player game with one Curse left. Someone plays Witch.
Or it's a four-player game with one Gold left, someone plays Vault, and everyone else has a Tunnel in hand.
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Re: Renaissance Previews #4: Flag Bearer, Swashbuckler, Treasurer
« Reply #87 on: September 28, 2018, 08:49:30 am »
0

Flag bearer is my favourite art until now :p

I have trouble seeing how good Treasurer is:

The first option is a slightly better Moneylender, which isn't bad but isn't worth 5$. The second option is really good if there's Trash-for-Benefit (etc), but not all games have that, and then it's pretty useless. Which leaves the last option, which is comparable to Merchant Ship if you keep the Key for one turn, gets better if you keep it any longer, but is underwhelming if it's taken away from you before then.

I guess in games without TfB, all players buy one just to prevent someone from keeping the Key all game long.

At worst, it's a terminal Gold since you can always claim the key although you own it. Other terminal Golds are in the $5 range too, and most come with a twist (others can use the boon, you must topdeck a card etc.). Even without the second option: A Moneylender which is still useful even if it hits no copper would be worth notably more.

And the argument that a card is not great because someone else might buy a copy of it to weaken the effect of yours is maybe valid in >=3p games, but loses a bit traction in 2p.
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Re: Renaissance Previews #4: Flag Bearer, Swashbuckler, Treasurer
« Reply #88 on: September 28, 2018, 02:54:17 pm »
+2

The one game I have with Swashbuckler, there are no other Coffer cards on the board.  There's very little chance to take the Treasure chest in such a game.  :(  Just goes to show that every Swashbuckler needs a Villain.  Or a pile of Ducats if it's like a slow day for villainy, I guess.

Anyone else think Swashbuckler looks Scarlett Johansson with duckface?
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Re: Renaissance Previews #4: Flag Bearer, Swashbuckler, Treasurer
« Reply #89 on: September 28, 2018, 06:36:49 pm »
0

The one game I have with Swashbuckler, there are no other Coffer cards on the board.  There's very little chance to take the Treasure chest in such a game.  :(  Just goes to show that every Swashbuckler needs a Villain.  Or a pile of Ducats if it's like a slow day for villainy, I guess.
IIRC, it was the first game I played with Swashbuckler that there was no other coffers cards and I got the Treasure Chest. You just need good way to discard cards mid-turn (I used scrying pool).

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Re: Renaissance Previews #4: Flag Bearer, Swashbuckler, Treasurer
« Reply #90 on: September 29, 2018, 12:28:20 pm »
0

Does every artifact have exactly 1 parent card? Or is that unknown information for now?
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Re: Renaissance Previews #4: Flag Bearer, Swashbuckler, Treasurer
« Reply #91 on: September 29, 2018, 12:30:54 pm »
+1

Can you take the Key if you already have the Key? Or l, I suppose, even if you can’t, you can choose that option for Treasury even if you have the Key, right?
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Re: Renaissance Previews #4: Flag Bearer, Swashbuckler, Treasurer
« Reply #92 on: September 29, 2018, 12:44:31 pm »
+1

Can you take the Key if you already have the Key? Or l, I suppose, even if you can’t, you can choose that option for Treasury even if you have the Key, right?
Yeah, you can choose "take the key" and it does nothing.

Online, there's a "do nothing" option if you already have the key.
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Re: Renaissance Previews #4: Flag Bearer, Swashbuckler, Treasurer
« Reply #93 on: September 29, 2018, 03:37:07 pm »
+4

Swashbuckler loves Dungeon, Silos, Hamlet...
but ESPECIALLY Plaza.
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Re: Renaissance Previews #4: Flag Bearer, Swashbuckler, Treasurer
« Reply #94 on: September 29, 2018, 06:46:23 pm »
0

Can you take the Key if you already have the Key? Or l, I suppose, even if you can’t, you can choose that option for Treasury even if you have the Key, right?
Agreed, you can clearly choose the "take the Key" option if you play Treasury when you have the key. And it doesn't really matter whether you then do nothing, or take the Key you already have.

On the other hand, if an Artifact ever says "When you take this..." it'll matter.
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Re: Renaissance Previews #4: Flag Bearer, Swashbuckler, Treasurer
« Reply #95 on: September 29, 2018, 07:00:01 pm »
+2

Can you take the Key if you already have the Key? Or l, I suppose, even if you can’t, you can choose that option for Treasury even if you have the Key, right?
Agreed, you can clearly choose the "take the Key" option if you play Treasury when you have the key. And it doesn't really matter whether you then do nothing, or take the Key you already have.

On the other hand, if an Artifact ever says "When you take this..." it'll matter.

Treasurer, not Treasury.
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Re: Renaissance Previews #4: Flag Bearer, Swashbuckler, Treasurer
« Reply #96 on: September 29, 2018, 07:11:01 pm »
+4

Whoops.

I'm sure I'll never make that mistake again...
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Re: Renaissance Previews #4: Flag Bearer, Swashbuckler, Treasurer
« Reply #97 on: October 01, 2018, 03:50:47 am »
0

To add to Treasurer's praise:



The second option is really good if there's Trash-for-Benefit (etc), but not all games have that, and then it's pretty useless.

You can still gain Copper from the trash, which is possible in almost every game. Everyone who has never used Ill-Gotten-Gains' ability may dismiss this as useless, but at times it is nice to spike a turn or refill the deck with fodder for Altars or Priests.

Among $5 golds, I would rank only Courtier higher (in most decks).
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Re: Renaissance Previews #4: Flag Bearer, Swashbuckler, Treasurer
« Reply #98 on: October 01, 2018, 05:44:54 am »
+1

You stab him in the heart.
Is that what trashing means? I never realised. I feel so bad. I'm not sure I can play this game any more.
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Minotaur

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Re: Renaissance Previews #4: Flag Bearer, Swashbuckler, Treasurer
« Reply #99 on: October 01, 2018, 01:45:00 pm »
+2

You stab him in the heart.
Is that what trashing means? I never realised. I feel so bad. I'm not sure I can play this game any more.

You thought Knights were just tickling everybody?  And Graverobber, what does he do?  Death Cart?  If you have alternative narratives, they might be entertaining...
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Re: Renaissance Previews #4: Flag Bearer, Swashbuckler, Treasurer
« Reply #100 on: October 01, 2018, 04:35:35 pm »
+8

You stab him in the heart.
Is that what trashing means? I never realised. I feel so bad. I'm not sure I can play this game any more.

You thought Knights were just tickling everybody?  And Graverobber, what does he do?  Death Cart?  If you have alternative narratives, they might be entertaining...

Perhaps Knights just persuade people to commit themselves to life in the church.
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Re: Renaissance Previews #4: Flag Bearer, Swashbuckler, Treasurer
« Reply #101 on: October 01, 2018, 07:44:40 pm »
+2

You stab him in the heart.
Is that what trashing means? I never realised. I feel so bad. I'm not sure I can play this game any more.

You thought Knights were just tickling everybody?  And Graverobber, what does he do?  Death Cart?  If you have alternative narratives, they might be entertaining...

Perhaps Knights just persuade people to commit themselves to life in the church.

I never knew Rats were so religious.
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Re: Renaissance Previews #4: Flag Bearer, Swashbuckler, Treasurer
« Reply #102 on: October 02, 2018, 04:29:32 am »
+1

You stab him in the heart.
Is that what trashing means? I never realised. I feel so bad. I'm not sure I can play this game any more.

You thought Knights were just tickling everybody?  And Graverobber, what does he do?  Death Cart?  If you have alternative narratives, they might be entertaining...

I understand 'trash' to mean 'remove from your dominion', by whatever means, violent or otherwise. The narrative depends on what causes the card to be trashed.
I suppose in the absence of knowing what was trashing my Flag Bearer, I naturally assumed a non-violent explanation. Because I'm that kind of person.

But certainly there are lots of possibilities; could be stabbed in the heart by a knight, could die of natural causes and be carried away in a death cart, could be promoted (upgrade your Flag Bearer into a Governor?), could be traded away for silver, or could be pushed into the sewers.
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werothegreat

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Re: Renaissance Previews #4: Flag Bearer, Swashbuckler, Treasurer
« Reply #103 on: October 02, 2018, 07:35:40 am »
+1

Or even subsumed into the Borg Rats!
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Re: Renaissance Previews #4: Flag Bearer, Swashbuckler, Treasurer
« Reply #104 on: October 02, 2018, 10:27:08 am »
0

I understand 'trash' to mean 'remove from your dominion', by whatever means, violent or otherwise. The narrative depends on what causes the card to be trashed.
I suppose in the absence of knowing what was trashing my Flag Bearer, I naturally assumed a non-violent explanation. Because I'm that kind of person.

But certainly there are lots of possibilities; could be stabbed in the heart by a knight, could die of natural causes and be carried away in a death cart, could be promoted (upgrade your Flag Bearer into a Governor?), could be traded away for silver, or could be pushed into the sewers.

Hmmm, I suppose there could be a story where the Flag Bearer of the Great Flag War is finally promoted to Knighthood when he secures the flag a second time.  Other things like Forge are pretty hard to figure out in any generality.
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Re: Renaissance Previews #4: Flag Bearer, Swashbuckler, Treasurer
« Reply #105 on: October 02, 2018, 09:52:23 pm »
+1

Hmm, Flag Bearer is a bit of a player-2 advantage card, isn't it? Assuming multiple do-nothing terminal silvers aren't something you really want in your deck.
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Re: Renaissance Previews #4: Flag Bearer, Swashbuckler, Treasurer
« Reply #106 on: October 03, 2018, 04:22:59 am »
0

Hmm, Flag Bearer is a bit of a player-2 advantage card, isn't it? Assuming multiple do-nothing terminal silvers aren't something you really want in your deck.

One of my first thoughts was that all the artifacts confer a player-2 advantage.
But thinking about it further, my theory is that whether or not there is a player-2 advantage comes down to the opportunity cost of regaining the artifact (assuming you've had it some time before).
- Positive opportunity cost means player-2 advantage. At any time when both players have made the opportunity cost the same number of times, the artifact will be with whoever had it second, which is more likely to be player 2.
- Negative opportunity cost means no player-2 advantage. The artifact will go easily back and forth without either player needing to undermine their position to get it.

Flag Bearer, you have to gain or trash a terminal silver. That is usually a positive opportunity cost. There is always something better you could be doing with the gain (eg gain Silver).
Treasurer, you have to play a terminal gold and forego trashing/gaining a Treasure. That is sometimes a positive opportunity cost, at least in early game when you'd rather play terminal gold and trash a Copper.
Swashbuckler, you have to play a smithy while you have cards in your discard pile and at least 3 coffers. My hunch is that saving up 3 coffers is often a positive opportunity cost (you could have spent them to accelerate your deck some other way).

So my theory would lead me to believe that in terms of player-2 advantage: Flag Bearer - yes; Swashbuckler - probably; Treasurer - probably.

Of course, the magnitude of any such advantage is affected by the power of the artifact on a given board. On a board where it's not worth getting the Treasure Chest then the magnitude of Swashbuckler's player-2 advantage is 0.

[EDITED to recognise that using Treasurer to get the Key comes at the opportunity cost of trashing a treasure.]
« Last Edit: October 03, 2018, 04:59:16 am by infangthief »
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infangthief

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Re: Renaissance Previews #4: Flag Bearer, Swashbuckler, Treasurer
« Reply #107 on: October 03, 2018, 04:30:45 am »
0

I wonder if we will get an Artifact with negative-utility? One that you get by gaining/playing a card that would be too powerful on its own.
I reckon it would be very hard to make such a thing balanced.
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samath

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Re: Renaissance Previews #4: Flag Bearer, Swashbuckler, Treasurer
« Reply #108 on: October 03, 2018, 06:10:50 am »
+2

Not really. There is basically no such thing as a player 2 advantage. If there were, the first player would pass to become the second player. Sure, the timing of your shuffles don't quite make that always the best play, but that's a higher-order effect.

There's a second-mover advantage, though, which means that there's less incentive than usual to take the artifact first. By doing so, you're opening your opponent up to a much stronger play of stealing it from you. It's like taking Dame Josephine if she's the top Knight on the pile, but even more so.
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Re: Renaissance Previews #4: Flag Bearer, Swashbuckler, Treasurer
« Reply #109 on: October 03, 2018, 08:37:35 am »
+4

Not really. There is basically no such thing as a player 2 advantage. If there were, the first player would pass to become the second player. Sure, the timing of your shuffles don't quite make that always the best play, but that's a higher-order effect.

There's a second-mover advantage, though, which means that there's less incentive than usual to take the artifact first. By doing so, you're opening your opponent up to a much stronger play of stealing it from you. It's like taking Dame Josephine if she's the top Knight on the pile, but even more so.

I think this is totally wrong, and for a reason you have noted - the timing of shuffles. You seem to think this just occasionally might muck up your logic, but it totally nukes it every time. You don't get to pass in dominion. You get to put your hand into your discard pile and draw 5 more cards. That's absolutely not the same thing.
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Re: Renaissance Previews #4: Flag Bearer, Swashbuckler, Treasurer
« Reply #110 on: October 03, 2018, 09:16:50 am »
0

Not really. There is basically no such thing as a player 2 advantage. If there were, the first player would pass to become the second player. Sure, the timing of your shuffles don't quite make that always the best play, but that's a higher-order effect.

There's a second-mover advantage, though, which means that there's less incentive than usual to take the artifact first. By doing so, you're opening your opponent up to a much stronger play of stealing it from you. It's like taking Dame Josephine if she's the top Knight on the pile, but even more so.

I think this is totally wrong, and for a reason you have noted - the timing of shuffles. You seem to think this just occasionally might muck up your logic, but it totally nukes it every time. You don't get to pass in dominion. You get to put your hand into your discard pile and draw 5 more cards. That's absolutely not the same thing.

What complicates things is that you get the effect of the flag the turn you get flag bearer, so there could be times where spiking a card with Flag Bearer and likely getting to play the spiked card before player two is worth it for player one. The first mover gets the 6-card starting hand first, and only after several turns of losing the flag are they at a clear disadvantage. Also the opening it matters what order you get the Coppers and so player two might not be in a position to contest the Flag right away, say if player two has 4/3 or 5/2 and player one has 3/4.

Edit: oh you were talking about player one passing T1 completely, while I was specifically talking about Flag Bearer.
« Last Edit: October 03, 2018, 09:18:12 am by markusin »
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trivialknot

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Re: Renaissance Previews #4: Flag Bearer, Swashbuckler, Treasurer
« Reply #111 on: October 03, 2018, 12:01:35 pm »
0

Not really. There is basically no such thing as a player 2 advantage. If there were, the first player would pass to become the second player. Sure, the timing of your shuffles don't quite make that always the best play, but that's a higher-order effect.

There's a second-mover advantage, though, which means that there's less incentive than usual to take the artifact first. By doing so, you're opening your opponent up to a much stronger play of stealing it from you. It's like taking Dame Josephine if she's the top Knight on the pile, but even more so.

I think this is totally wrong, and for a reason you have noted - the timing of shuffles. You seem to think this just occasionally might muck up your logic, but it totally nukes it every time. You don't get to pass in dominion. You get to put your hand into your discard pile and draw 5 more cards. That's absolutely not the same thing.

I think the shuffle timing actually gives an advantage to the first player.  For example, if both players buy a Flag Bearer on T2, then P2 ends up with the Flag, and the decks are otherwise the same.  On the other hand, if P2 buys a Flag Bearer on T2, and P1 buys one on T3, then P1 ends up with the Flag, and their Flag Bearer comes a shuffle later.  But here's the key point: having a Flag Bearer a shuffle earlier is bad.  Instead of having the Flag Bearer earlier, you could have bought a silver, and had the silver a shuffle earlier instead.
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werothegreat

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Re: Renaissance Previews #4: Flag Bearer, Swashbuckler, Treasurer
« Reply #112 on: October 03, 2018, 12:58:58 pm »
0

Not really. There is basically no such thing as a player 2 advantage. If there were, the first player would pass to become the second player. Sure, the timing of your shuffles don't quite make that always the best play, but that's a higher-order effect.

There's a second-mover advantage, though, which means that there's less incentive than usual to take the artifact first. By doing so, you're opening your opponent up to a much stronger play of stealing it from you. It's like taking Dame Josephine if she's the top Knight on the pile, but even more so.

I think this is totally wrong, and for a reason you have noted - the timing of shuffles. You seem to think this just occasionally might muck up your logic, but it totally nukes it every time. You don't get to pass in dominion. You get to put your hand into your discard pile and draw 5 more cards. That's absolutely not the same thing.

I think the shuffle timing actually gives an advantage to the first player.  For example, if both players buy a Flag Bearer on T2, then P2 ends up with the Flag, and the decks are otherwise the same.  On the other hand, if P2 buys a Flag Bearer on T2, and P1 buys one on T3, then P1 ends up with the Flag, and their Flag Bearer comes a shuffle later.  But here's the key point: having a Flag Bearer a shuffle earlier is bad.  Instead of having the Flag Bearer earlier, you could have bought a silver, and had the silver a shuffle earlier instead.

I mean, it depends on what else you open with.  I wouldn't mind having a Flag Bearer in my deck if my was Forager or Oasis or even just a Silver.
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Holger

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Re: Renaissance Previews #4: Flag Bearer, Swashbuckler, Treasurer
« Reply #113 on: October 03, 2018, 02:46:29 pm »
0

Not really. There is basically no such thing as a player 2 advantage. If there were, the first player would pass to become the second player. Sure, the timing of your shuffles don't quite make that always the best play, but that's a higher-order effect.

There's a second-mover advantage, though, which means that there's less incentive than usual to take the artifact first. By doing so, you're opening your opponent up to a much stronger play of stealing it from you. It's like taking Dame Josephine if she's the top Knight on the pile, but even more so.

I think this is totally wrong, and for a reason you have noted - the timing of shuffles. You seem to think this just occasionally might muck up your logic, but it totally nukes it every time. You don't get to pass in dominion. You get to put your hand into your discard pile and draw 5 more cards. That's absolutely not the same thing.

It's not the same thing, but it can help you just as likely as hurt you compared to actual "passing" - and in the early game, it generally helps you to go through your cards faster. Besides, instead of doin gnothing, the first player can usually just do something else that even helps his deck slightly- e.g. gain a Silver or a cantrip.

AFAIK the challenge to construct a kingdom in which the second player wins more often than the first with optimal play on both sides is still open after four years:

The challenge is simple. Design a kingdom where the second player has a higher chance of winning than the first player with optimal play. You may not pick starting hands, nor can you choose the order of the knights pile, the ruins pile, or the black market deck. You can choose the bane, the contents of the ruins pile, and the contents of the black market deck.

I don't actually have a kingdom in mind, but I have some ideas and I think it could lead to some interesting discussion. Unfortunately it is hard to verify solutions, so try to make the benefit for the second player as large as possible.

It is certainly true that Artifacts reduce the inherent 1st-player advantage (like Noble Brigand and positive-interaction cards do). But that's not the same as having a 2nd player advantage.
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Jeebus

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Re: Renaissance Previews #4: Flag Bearer, Swashbuckler, Treasurer
« Reply #114 on: October 03, 2018, 03:09:06 pm »
+8

It is certainly true that Artifacts reduce the inherent 1st-player advantage (like Noble Brigand and positive-interaction cards do). But that's not the same as having a 2nd player advantage.

I I'm pretty sure that saying that Flag Bearer has a 2nd player advantage, simply means that its presence is to the 2nd player's advantage (on average), not that it changes the game so that the 2nd player has a bigger advantage than the 1st.

trivialknot

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Re: Renaissance Previews #4: Flag Bearer, Swashbuckler, Treasurer
« Reply #115 on: October 04, 2018, 12:43:01 am »
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Not really. There is basically no such thing as a player 2 advantage. If there were, the first player would pass to become the second player. Sure, the timing of your shuffles don't quite make that always the best play, but that's a higher-order effect.

There's a second-mover advantage, though, which means that there's less incentive than usual to take the artifact first. By doing so, you're opening your opponent up to a much stronger play of stealing it from you. It's like taking Dame Josephine if she's the top Knight on the pile, but even more so.

I think this is totally wrong, and for a reason you have noted - the timing of shuffles. You seem to think this just occasionally might muck up your logic, but it totally nukes it every time. You don't get to pass in dominion. You get to put your hand into your discard pile and draw 5 more cards. That's absolutely not the same thing.

I think the shuffle timing actually gives an advantage to the first player.  For example, if both players buy a Flag Bearer on T2, then P2 ends up with the Flag, and the decks are otherwise the same.  On the other hand, if P2 buys a Flag Bearer on T2, and P1 buys one on T3, then P1 ends up with the Flag, and their Flag Bearer comes a shuffle later.  But here's the key point: having a Flag Bearer a shuffle earlier is bad.  Instead of having the Flag Bearer earlier, you could have bought a silver, and had the silver a shuffle earlier instead.
Upon further reflection, buying Flag Bearer later is not necessarily better.  Because later your deck is better, and there's more of an opportunity cost.  e.g. if you draw $5 on T3, you might not want to waste it getting a Flag Bearer.
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greybirdofprey

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Re: Renaissance Previews #4: Flag Bearer, Swashbuckler, Treasurer
« Reply #116 on: October 04, 2018, 07:20:48 am »
+1

You stab him in the heart.
Is that what trashing means? I never realised. I feel so bad. I'm not sure I can play this game any more.

You thought Knights were just tickling everybody?  And Graverobber, what does he do?  Death Cart?  If you have alternative narratives, they might be entertaining...

I understand 'trash' to mean 'remove from your dominion', by whatever means, violent or otherwise. The narrative depends on what causes the card to be trashed.
I suppose in the absence of knowing what was trashing my Flag Bearer, I naturally assumed a non-violent explanation. Because I'm that kind of person.

But certainly there are lots of possibilities; could be stabbed in the heart by a knight, could die of natural causes and be carried away in a death cart, could be promoted (upgrade your Flag Bearer into a Governor?), could be traded away for silver, or could be pushed into the sewers.

Also depends on whether it's a person or a structure/location.

With Sauna you can lock someone up and kill them Hitman-style, but if it's say, a village, maybe you destroy the village and use its wood to fuel your Sauna?
With Chapel/Bishop/Temple/Monastery/Priest you donate something to the church.
A lot of cards let you 'sell' something or use its resources to improve it into something else.
The only ones I can't quickly think of a story for are Lookout/Sentry with regard to structures/locations. They see an Estate and... ?
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infangthief

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Re: Renaissance Previews #4: Flag Bearer, Swashbuckler, Treasurer
« Reply #117 on: October 04, 2018, 07:40:22 am »
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The only ones I can't quickly think of a story for are Lookout/Sentry with regard to structures/locations. They see an Estate and... ?
... the invading hordes who are approaching it (the ones the master said to watch out for) ... and they do nothing.
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greybirdofprey

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Re: Renaissance Previews #4: Flag Bearer, Swashbuckler, Treasurer
« Reply #118 on: October 04, 2018, 08:10:46 am »
+1

The only ones I can't quickly think of a story for are Lookout/Sentry with regard to structures/locations. They see an Estate and... ?
... the invading hordes who are approaching it (the ones the master said to watch out for) ... and they do nothing.

So you deliberately buy bad sentries/lookouts hoping that word will get out so people will invade your cost-inefficient Estates and Copper mines and take them from you?

Works for me.
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Fly-Eagles-Fly

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Re: Renaissance Previews #4: Flag Bearer, Swashbuckler, Treasurer
« Reply #119 on: October 12, 2018, 05:55:43 pm »
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I think Flag Bearer looks like it may have been inspired by a Nocturne outtake. I read this in the Blessed Village Secret History today:  Empires had had a Woodcutter that gave you a Boon when you gained it or trashed it.
(Yes I know it says Empires, Boons were originally going to be in Empires but aren't).
It sounds a lot like Flag Bearer, with no +buy and flag instead of Boons.
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LastFootnote

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Re: Renaissance Previews #4: Flag Bearer, Swashbuckler, Treasurer
« Reply #120 on: October 12, 2018, 07:36:47 pm »
0

I don't think "inspired" is the word there. In general "when you gain or trash this" first showed up in Empires, with Rocks and Crumbling Castle.

The card you are describing was called "Honest Merchant", and it was awesome back when you knew what Boon you were going to get, or better still had a choice of three. When it changed to random Boons, I was all, this card is awful now, let's get rid of it.
« Last Edit: October 12, 2018, 07:39:47 pm by LastFootnote »
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Donald X.

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Re: Renaissance Previews #4: Flag Bearer, Swashbuckler, Treasurer
« Reply #121 on: October 12, 2018, 07:45:41 pm »
+2

I don't think "inspired" is the word there. In general "when you gain or trash this" first showed up in Empires, with Rocks and Crumbling Castle.

The card you are describing was called "Honest Merchant", and it was awesome back when you knew what Boon you were going to get, or better still had a choice of three. When it changed to random Boons, I was all, this card is awful now, let's get rid of it.
Awesome except for first player advantage that some people would certainly hate.

And then because of that card dying it took forever for me to try Blessed Village, and then I let you save the Boon and now it's a star of the set. A lesson for us all.
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LastFootnote

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Re: Renaissance Previews #4: Flag Bearer, Swashbuckler, Treasurer
« Reply #122 on: October 12, 2018, 09:54:24 pm »
0

I don't think "inspired" is the word there. In general "when you gain or trash this" first showed up in Empires, with Rocks and Crumbling Castle.

The card you are describing was called "Honest Merchant", and it was awesome back when you knew what Boon you were going to get, or better still had a choice of three. When it changed to random Boons, I was all, this card is awful now, let's get rid of it.
Awesome except for first player advantage that some people would certainly hate.

Yes, although I maintain that this and a few other problems could have been solved by making Flame's Gift weaker, e.g. "You may discard a Treasure, to trash it or a card from your hand."

EDIT: Well, not solved. Mitigated. I think random Boons was the way to go, though. I am not pining for the days of choose-able Boons, even though there was fun to be had there. Druid still gets you some of that fun.

And then because of that card dying it took forever for me to try Blessed Village, and then I let you save the Boon and now it's a star of the set. A lesson for us all.

Well I don't think the lesson was, "Honest Merchant would have worked fine if you could defer the Boons." I think it's, "Random boons are a lot nicer on a card you want anyway."
« Last Edit: October 12, 2018, 09:56:12 pm by LastFootnote »
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Donald X.

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Re: Renaissance Previews #4: Flag Bearer, Swashbuckler, Treasurer
« Reply #123 on: October 13, 2018, 03:54:24 am »
+1

Well I don't think the lesson was, "Honest Merchant would have worked fine if you could defer the Boons." I think it's, "Random boons are a lot nicer on a card you want anyway."
I think they were both significant. We had fun buying Honest Merchant even though it was a Woodcutter. A village is much nicer, but also, getting to save a Boon is huge for how much fun you get out of the Boon on Blessed Village.

The lesson for me though was "Honest Merchant could totally be fixed up." Sure that fix involved having it not be a Woodcutter - to me that wasn't the premise so the trail is clear.
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Re: Renaissance Previews #4: Flag Bearer, Swashbuckler, Treasurer
« Reply #124 on: Today at 02:14:32 pm »
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The card you are describing was called "Honest Merchant", and it was awesome back when you knew what Boon you were going to get, or better still had a choice of three. When it changed to random Boons, I was all, this card is awful now, let's get rid of it.

And the Merchant isn't exactly Honest if you don't know what you're getting...
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