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Author Topic: CSM and Ducat  (Read 1535 times)

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Mic Qsenoch

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CSM and Ducat
« on: September 26, 2018, 02:12:35 pm »
+15

I recruited discord to help make a list of:

Cards (and card-shaped things) which make Candlestick Maker and Ducat play differently:

Draw to X and related: Library, JoAT, Watchtower, Minion, Menagerie, Scholar, Tactician, Cursed Village, Diplomat
Action Thrones: TR, KC, Procession, Crown, Disciple, Ghost, Royal Carriage
Drawing/Playing Actions: Scrying Pool, City Quarter, Herald, Golem, Ghost, Wandering Minstrel, Prince, Imp, Conclave, Vassal, Library, Shanty Town
Actions Played/In-play/In-discard: Peddler, Conspirator, Leprechaun, Emporium, Enchantress, Scheme, Coin of the Realm, Champion (Diadem), Magic Lamp*, Walled Village, Inn
Tokens: Teacher, Lost Arts, Pathfinding, Seaway, Training, Ferry, Plan, Inheritance
Type check bonuses: Ironmonger, Ironworks, Sacrifice, Sculptor, Magpie, Vineyard, Transmute, Haunted Mirror
Action Gaining/Buying: University, Lurker, Stonemason, Quarry, Summon
Impersonation: BoM, Overlord, Necromancer
Landmarks: Keep, Arena, Colonnade, Obelisk, Orchard, Triumphal Arch, Defiled Shrine, Tomb
Action Trashing: Graverobber, Death Cart, Advance, Zombie Apprentice, Lurker
Variety: Fairgrounds, Museum, Gladiator, Menagerie, Harvest
Possession (because always Possession?)
Hexes: Locusts, Delusion
Butcher (easier to use CSM Coffers)
Ducatís cool ability which also interacts with: Priest, Tomb, Market Square, Sewers, Watchtower
Treasure things: Terminal Draw (not listing all these), Stables, Venture, Bank, Earthís Gift, Mandarin**, Storyteller, Black Market***, Catapult, Herbalist, Poor House, Forager, Hero, Tragic Hero, Alms, Crown, Crypt, Plaza, Haunted Woods (CSM can be dead in hand)
Can/Canít trash Treasures: Counterfeit, Loan, Bandit, Noble Brigand (affects junking), Pirate Ship, Taxman, Mint, Mine, JoAT, Spice Merchant, Hermit, Pooka

Clarifications:
* Ducat favorer because you can play multiple Ducats (some after Lamp) and still activate.
** Ducat enables Mandarin/HoP golden deck.
*** Storyteller/Black Market require some additional interactions to make meaningful differences.

All the action leading to this treasure happened here:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1EE3Jj3W_8-WuDXX4IM74sJxe9qpNbdkL7RtioH-IWv8/edit?usp=sharing
Feel free to add anything we missed.
« Last Edit: October 02, 2018, 11:16:31 pm by Mic Qsenoch »
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Orange

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Re: CSM and Ducat
« Reply #1 on: September 26, 2018, 02:38:17 pm »
0

Not sure Crown belongs on this list.
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Uiteindelijk

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Re: CSM and Ducat
« Reply #2 on: September 26, 2018, 02:43:55 pm »
+1

Not sure Crown belongs on this list.

The +2 actions from CSM differs from what you'd get with Ducat.
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GendoIkari

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Re: CSM and Ducat
« Reply #3 on: September 26, 2018, 03:05:31 pm »
+2

Not sure Crown belongs on this list.

The +2 actions from CSM differs from what you'd get with Ducat.

Yeah. A hand of Crown+CM+Goons+Goons is better than Crown+Ducat+Goons+Goons by a lot.
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trivialknot

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Re: CSM and Ducat
« Reply #4 on: September 26, 2018, 04:16:07 pm »
+6

You missed Copper.
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silvern

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Re: CSM and Ducat
« Reply #5 on: September 26, 2018, 05:45:53 pm »
+1

One test I've been doing is, randomizing a kingdom, replacing the first two cards with CM and Ducat, and seeing how often you want Candlestick Maker at all.
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LastFootnote

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Re: CSM and Ducat
« Reply #6 on: September 26, 2018, 05:58:19 pm »
0

One test I've been doing is, randomizing a kingdom, replacing the first two cards with CM and Ducat, and seeing how often you want Candlestick Maker at all.

How often do you want Candlestick Maker at all?
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Orange

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Re: CSM and Ducat
« Reply #7 on: September 26, 2018, 06:37:53 pm »
+1

Not sure Crown belongs on this list.

The +2 actions from CSM differs from what you'd get with Ducat.

Ah yes of course!
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faust

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Re: CSM and Ducat
« Reply #8 on: September 27, 2018, 01:03:15 am »
+3

The cards in the "Variety" section do not really make them play differently though, they just make it so when both are in the kingdom, you are incentivized to get both. But since that holds for both Ducat and CSM, they won't play differently.
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Since the number of points is within a constant factor of the number of city quarters, in the long run we can get (4 - ε) ↑↑ n points in n turns for any ε > 0.

arflutter

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Re: CSM and Ducat
« Reply #9 on: September 27, 2018, 01:38:40 am »
0

The cards in the "Variety" section do not really make them play differently though, they just make it so when both are in the kingdom, you are incentivized to get both.
Menagerie plays differently because when you have multiple CSMs in hand you can play some to get rid of the duplicates.
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faust

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Re: CSM and Ducat
« Reply #10 on: September 27, 2018, 02:01:49 am »
+2

The cards in the "Variety" section do not really make them play differently though, they just make it so when both are in the kingdom, you are incentivized to get both.
Menagerie plays differently because when you have multiple CSMs in hand you can play some to get rid of the duplicates.
Yes, but Mengerie already makes an appearance in the "draw to X and related" section for that reason.
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Since the number of points is within a constant factor of the number of city quarters, in the long run we can get (4 - ε) ↑↑ n points in n turns for any ε > 0.

Honkeyfresh

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Re: CSM and Ducat
« Reply #11 on: September 28, 2018, 12:51:01 am »
0

One test I've been doing is, randomizing a kingdom, replacing the first two cards with CM and Ducat, and seeing how often you want Candlestick Maker at all.

How often do you want Candlestick Maker at all?

when it's the only buy, advance games, procession, Cursed Village

but yeah I am with you. 

And while this thread is mildly interesting, it's not that relevant unless both are on the board as the above interactions would become clear in it's own board.

That said I'd go Ducat over CSM every time unless some board interaction swayed me.  Can't be drawn dead, and can trash coppers.
« Last Edit: September 28, 2018, 12:55:04 am by Honkeyfresh »
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-Stef-

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Re: CSM and Ducat
« Reply #12 on: October 02, 2018, 05:53:24 am »
+2

I see Watchtower is on the list, but only as a draw-to-X.
It seems to merit a special entry though, allowing you to thin coppers when you trash the Ducat you buy/gain.
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markus

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Re: CSM and Ducat
« Reply #13 on: October 02, 2018, 07:29:46 am »
+1

If I remember correctly, Mic didn't want anything related to the on-gain effect on the list, as this is the obvious thing that the two cards differ.
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Donald X.

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Re: CSM and Ducat
« Reply #14 on: October 02, 2018, 08:21:04 am »
+1

If I remember correctly, Mic didn't want anything related to the on-gain effect on the list, as this is the obvious thing that the two cards differ.
Surely it goes in the section "Ducatís cool ability which also interacts with: Priest, Tomb, Market Square"
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markus

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Re: CSM and Ducat
« Reply #15 on: October 02, 2018, 09:02:58 am »
+1

If I remember correctly, Mic didn't want anything related to the on-gain effect on the list, as this is the obvious thing that the two cards differ.
Surely it goes in the section "Ducatís cool ability which also interacts with: Priest, Tomb, Market Square"
Yes.  8)
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