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Author Topic: Renaissance Previews #3: Villain, Ducat, Silk Merchant  (Read 5990 times)

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allanfieldhouse

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Re: Renaissance Previews #3: Villain, Ducat, Silk Merchant
« Reply #50 on: September 26, 2018, 10:36:31 am »
+1

I always have trouble keeping Spice Merchant and Silk Road straight in terms of the names. Silk Merchant will help a lot.  ;D

Silk Merchant is the second card from this expansion where I've read the name and thought "I swear that's already a card..."
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markusin

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Re: Renaissance Previews #3: Villain, Ducat, Silk Merchant
« Reply #51 on: September 26, 2018, 10:40:15 am »
+1

I don't think SM is a power card, but I do think people are somewhat underrating the on-gain effect. If you open 4/3, you can grab a SM and a second 4-cost card on turn 2.

Yeah, but that's just the Nomad Camp thing all over again. You can open Nomad Camp/another $4 cost card, but if you do, you just essentially opened with Woodcutter/$4 cost card, which is just a regular 3/4 opening where the $3 is particularly weak.
It's particularly good when there is a TfB available, especially one that costs 4 or less such as Procession or Remake.

For example:

Turn 1: SM
Turn 2: Procession
Turn 3: Procession the SM. Now you have a $5 card, $5-8 to spend this turn (4-7 copper and the coffer), and two villagers. You're also shuffling your discard pile for Turn 4.

That's if the two cards collide on Turn 3. There is no guarantee that will happen.
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Awaclus

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Re: Renaissance Previews #3: Villain, Ducat, Silk Merchant
« Reply #52 on: September 26, 2018, 10:40:56 am »
+4

For example:

Turn 1: SM
Turn 2: Procession
Turn 3: Procession the SM. Now you have a $5 card, $5-8 to spend this turn (4-7 copper and the coffer), and two villagers. You're also shuffling your discard pile for Turn 4.

More like:

Turn 1: SM
Turn 2: Procession
Turn 3: draw Procession without the SM.
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SuperHans

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Re: Renaissance Previews #3: Villain, Ducat, Silk Merchant
« Reply #53 on: September 26, 2018, 10:44:07 am »
0

I don't think SM is a power card, but I do think people are somewhat underrating the on-gain effect. If you open 4/3, you can grab a SM and a second 4-cost card on turn 2.

Yeah, but that's just the Nomad Camp thing all over again. You can open Nomad Camp/another $4 cost card, but if you do, you just essentially opened with Woodcutter/$4 cost card, which is just a regular 3/4 opening where the $3 is particularly weak.
It's particularly good when there is a TfB available, especially one that costs 4 or less such as Procession or Remake.

For example:

Turn 1: SM
Turn 2: Procession
Turn 3: Procession the SM. Now you have a $5 card, $5-8 to spend this turn (4-7 copper and the coffer), and two villagers. You're also shuffling your discard pile for Turn 4.

That's if the two cards collide on Turn 3. There is no guarantee that will happen.
For sure. Only pointing out some possible upside.

The villager allows there to be flexibility if you miss. Say you draw SM turn 3, and by playing it you draw your Remake. Well now you can use the villager to play the remake, which is really the better and more practical example. I just like cards that combo with procession.
« Last Edit: September 26, 2018, 10:45:21 am by SuperHans »
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SuperHans

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Re: Renaissance Previews #3: Villain, Ducat, Silk Merchant
« Reply #54 on: September 26, 2018, 10:48:20 am »
+3

For example:

Turn 1: SM
Turn 2: Procession
Turn 3: Procession the SM. Now you have a $5 card, $5-8 to spend this turn (4-7 copper and the coffer), and two villagers. You're also shuffling your discard pile for Turn 4.

More like:

Turn 1: SM
Turn 2: Procession
Turn 3: draw Procession without the SM.
Turn 1: SM
Turn 2: Procession
Turn 3: Draw Procession without the SM
Turn 4: Don't draw SM
Turn 5: Draw SM. Play SM and draw Procession with no other action card
Turn 6: Resign
« Last Edit: September 26, 2018, 10:53:37 am by SuperHans »
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greybirdofprey

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Re: Renaissance Previews #3: Villain, Ducat, Silk Merchant
« Reply #55 on: September 26, 2018, 11:09:58 am »
0

I like how, since Empires, most attacks are either not that powerful or self-limited.
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Doom_Shark

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Re: Renaissance Previews #3: Villain, Ducat, Silk Merchant
« Reply #56 on: September 26, 2018, 11:23:13 am »
+2

Is anyone else disappointed that Silk Merchant and Silk Road don't combo much?
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tripwire

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Re: Renaissance Previews #3: Villain, Ducat, Silk Merchant
« Reply #57 on: September 26, 2018, 11:36:10 am »
0

+cards +buy is usually a strong effect. Wharf, Margrave, Council Room, Tragic Hero, Ranger--even the weaker ones of the bunch are pretty okay.  You're probably sad if Silk Merchant is your only draw, or worse, if it's your only village.  But if you need +buy, Silk Merchant is there for you.

And that's not even talking about the on-gain effect, which seems particularly good in the opener.  Usually I don't like to get terminal-draw/terminal in the opener because collision rates are so high.

Admittedly, I haven't had a chance to play with today's cards, but I'm a little surprised people have been as down on Silk Merchant as they have been here.  Like trivialknot points out, +buy that draws cards is pretty strong. I mean, I consider Wharf and Margrave as both too strong (which is especially annoying with Margrave; too many decisions that it's not fun, but too good to just ignore), so much so that all the other +buy drawers have drawbacks!

Sure, +2 cards is significantly different than +3 cards, but I think the thing people are ignoring is how low the opportunity cost for Silk Merchant's buy is. Yeah, Silk Merchant probably won't be your primary draw card, but it's definitely not a card that you'll feel bad about picking up for the +buy. Often picking up that extra buy involves a momentary loss in consistency or efficiency, that I don't think will be there so much with Silk Merchant.
« Last Edit: September 26, 2018, 11:47:23 am by tripwire »
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LastFootnote

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Re: Renaissance Previews #3: Villain, Ducat, Silk Merchant
« Reply #58 on: September 26, 2018, 11:37:11 am »
0

I like how, since Empires, most attacks are either not that powerful or self-limited.

Also there aren't very many of them. Well, I guess Nocturne has a bunch. But Empires has 3, and as we know from the teaser, Renaissance only has 2.
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werothegreat

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Re: Renaissance Previews #3: Villain, Ducat, Silk Merchant
« Reply #59 on: September 26, 2018, 11:50:32 am »
0

Nocturne got a bunch of Attacks mainly to show off the Hexes, I would think.
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LastFootnote

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Re: Renaissance Previews #3: Villain, Ducat, Silk Merchant
« Reply #60 on: September 26, 2018, 11:53:36 am »
+2

Nocturne got a bunch of Attacks mainly to show off the Hexes, I would think.

I think it was really more that the Hexes allowed for Attacks to be made relatively easily.
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monster

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Re: Renaissance Previews #3: Villain, Ducat, Silk Merchant
« Reply #61 on: September 26, 2018, 11:59:22 am »
+1

Any reason why it's the plural "+1 Coffers" instead of "+1 Coffer"?
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LastFootnote

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Re: Renaissance Previews #3: Villain, Ducat, Silk Merchant
« Reply #62 on: September 26, 2018, 12:07:16 pm »
+1

Any reason why it's the plural "+1 Coffers" instead of "+1 Coffer"?

+1 Coffer doesn't actually convey the idea. It's like saying +1 Safe. When really you're adding money to your safe(s). So, +1 to your Safe. You're adding money to your coffers. +1 Coffers.
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King Leon

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Re: Renaissance Previews #3: Villain, Ducat, Silk Merchant
« Reply #63 on: September 26, 2018, 12:23:10 pm »
+1

At first I thought the new cards are fun, but when I saw that Ducat is strictly better that Candlestick Maker, I got very disappointed. Villain (which should be a pun to Village, I guess)  also plays very different, if you use Shelters (but so do Shepherd and Baron).
« Last Edit: September 26, 2018, 12:26:57 pm by King Leon »
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Mic Qsenoch

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Re: Renaissance Previews #3: Villain, Ducat, Silk Merchant
« Reply #64 on: September 26, 2018, 12:34:58 pm »
+2

At first I thought the new cards are fun, but when I saw that Ducat is strictly better that Candlestick Maker, I got very disappointed.
There are so many cards in Dominion that care about whether something is an Action, or whether something is a Treasure. On the whole, being a non-terminal Action is a lot better than being a Treasure, but in any case, they are a lot different. I'm not even sure whether the trashing ability makes up for the type disadvantage, but we'll see.
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Holunder9

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Re: Renaissance Previews #3: Villain, Ducat, Silk Merchant
« Reply #65 on: September 26, 2018, 12:36:26 pm »
0

Ducat is strictly better that Candlestick Maker
It is not. Treasures and non-terminal Actions are similar but not identical.

Let's take a hypothetical Action-Silver: +1 Action +2 Coins

I dare to claim that it would have to cost $4 because a lot of cards prefer that over Silver: Throne Room variants, draw-to-X, Scrying Pool, Golem, Herald, Ghost and probably a bunch I forgot.
The advantage of the Treasure over the Action is that it cannot be drawn yet. I think that the former on average outweighs the latter.
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crj

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Re: Renaissance Previews #3: Villain, Ducat, Silk Merchant
« Reply #66 on: September 26, 2018, 12:36:56 pm »
+7

+1 Coffer doesn't actually convey the idea. It's like saying +1 Safe. When really you're adding money to your safe(s). So, +1 to your Safe. You're adding money to your coffers. +1 Coffers.
I keep seeing this explanation, but it still makes no sense to me. One might as well say "+1 Storage Solutions" to mean "gain a Dominion expansion".
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SuperHans

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Re: Renaissance Previews #3: Villain, Ducat, Silk Merchant
« Reply #67 on: September 26, 2018, 12:43:40 pm »
0

At first I thought the new cards are fun, but when I saw that Ducat is strictly better that Candlestick Maker, I got very disappointed. Villain (which should be a pun to Village, I guess)  also plays very different, if you use Shelters (but so do Shepherd and Baron).
Ducat may be better but it is not "strictly" better in the literal sense of the word. Ducat is a treasure and CSM is an action and so they do interact differently with some cards.
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ben_king

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Re: Renaissance Previews #3: Villain, Ducat, Silk Merchant
« Reply #68 on: September 26, 2018, 12:46:40 pm »
+7

+1 Coffer doesn't actually convey the idea. It's like saying +1 Safe. When really you're adding money to your safe(s). So, +1 to your Safe. You're adding money to your coffers. +1 Coffers.
I keep seeing this explanation, but it still makes no sense to me. One might as well say "+1 Storage Solutions" to mean "gain a Dominion expansion".

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Orange

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Re: Renaissance Previews #3: Villain, Ducat, Silk Merchant
« Reply #69 on: September 26, 2018, 12:50:06 pm »
0

Is anyone else disappointed that Silk Merchant and Silk Road don't combo much?

I think Silk Road likes the +Buy a bit, and I guess the draw helps you get through the green?
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ObtusePunubiris

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Re: Renaissance Previews #3: Villain, Ducat, Silk Merchant
« Reply #70 on: September 26, 2018, 01:02:58 pm »
+4

I think the relationship of coffer to coffers is much like that of fund and funds.

Fund (as a noun) is a place to put money; think mutual fund or trust fund.  "Funds" could refer to multiples of fund (e.g. all these rich kids have trust funds), but it can also mean financial resources in general (e.g. I have the funds to buy a new suit).  If you were adding 1 unit of money to your general financial resources, you wouldn't say +1 fund; it would be +1 funds (or perhaps +1 to funds).  Coffer/coffers is the same.

Whether you think coffers was a good choice of terminology or not, the usage here (as opposed to just "coffer") is correct for what's trying to be communicated.
« Last Edit: September 26, 2018, 01:04:58 pm by ObtusePunubiris »
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Minotaur

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Re: Renaissance Previews #3: Villain, Ducat, Silk Merchant
« Reply #71 on: September 26, 2018, 01:13:48 pm »
0

But actually, how do you pronounce that word?

'dʌ.kət (DUH-cut). Classic English vowel reduction, taking all the fun out of words.

Well, my "where's my Duke at?" meme for Homage is officially canceled now...
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crj

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Re: Renaissance Previews #3: Villain, Ducat, Silk Merchant
« Reply #72 on: September 26, 2018, 01:14:32 pm »
0

"Funds" could refer to [...] but it can also mean financial resources in general
Trouble is, in that sense it's a mass noun.
Quote
If you were adding 1 unit of money to your general financial resources, you wouldn't say +1 fund; it would be +1 funds (or perhaps +1 to funds).
Not even "+1 to funds". It would have to be "+1[unit] to funds", e.g. "+$1 to funds" or "+1 to funds".
Quote
Coffer/coffers is the same.
Agreed. And "+$1 to Coffers" would, similarly, make sense.
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crlundy

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Re: Renaissance Previews #3: Villain, Ducat, Silk Merchant
« Reply #73 on: September 26, 2018, 01:22:23 pm »
0

Oxford English Dictionary shows it plural in the intended sense:
Quote
Coffer
a strongbox or small chest for holding valuables
(coffers) the funds or financial reserves of an organization a Dominion player
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trivialknot

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Re: Renaissance Previews #3: Villain, Ducat, Silk Merchant
« Reply #74 on: September 26, 2018, 01:27:47 pm »
+2

Although we whine about cards being nearly strictly better or strictly worse, that's mostly an aesthetics issue.  After all, in most games you only have one or the other available, and you'll still buy the "strictly worse" card because you don't have the opportunity to buy the better one.  The greater question is whether the cards play similarly or not.

If you don't trash a copper, Ducat is like Candlestick Maker, except in a few (relatively common) edge cases.  But wouldn't you usually want to trash a copper?  In this case, Ducat functions similar to Market Square, but it turns a coin into a coin token.  So, not really all that similar to Candlestick Maker.

... Now I'm thinking about Hermit/Ducat combos.
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