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Author Topic: Renaissance Previews #3: Villain, Ducat, Silk Merchant  (Read 7904 times)

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Ethan

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Re: Renaissance Previews #3: Villain, Ducat, Silk Merchant
« Reply #25 on: September 26, 2018, 07:34:02 am »
0

it's good Remake fuel, etc.
doesn't being good fuel mean that it's a bad card?
EDIT: grammar mistake
« Last Edit: September 26, 2018, 10:05:14 am by Ethan »
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TheOthin

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Re: Renaissance Previews #3: Villain, Ducat, Silk Merchant
« Reply #26 on: September 26, 2018, 07:38:37 am »
+3

I'm glad there are two +Buys here. Preview games have been pretty light on them the past few days.
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Holunder9

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Re: Renaissance Previews #3: Villain, Ducat, Silk Merchant
« Reply #27 on: September 26, 2018, 07:41:54 am »
0

it's good Remake fuel, etc.
doesn't being good fuel means that it's a bad card?
How can getting a gift when you trash a card like with Overgrown Estate, Cultist, Catacombs, Hunting Grounds (this is the only controversial one, when Hunting Grounds is trashed by a trashing attack you might not want the Duchy yet) and now Silk Merchant be a bad thing?
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Uiteindelijk

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Re: Renaissance Previews #3: Villain, Ducat, Silk Merchant
« Reply #28 on: September 26, 2018, 08:29:04 am »
0

it's good Remake fuel, etc.
doesn't being good fuel means that it's a bad card?
How can getting a gift when you trash a card like with Overgrown Estate, Cultist, Catacombs, Hunting Grounds (this is the only controversial one, when Hunting Grounds is trashed by a trashing attack you might not want the Duchy yet) and now Silk Merchant be a bad thing?

I think he meant that calling something "good fuel" tends to imply you don't actually want to keep it, but yes, the on trashing benefit nullifies that implication to some extent.

Donald, you are a master of suspense. I have been on the edge of my seat for three days, and will be for two more. Thanks for another interesting expansion!
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markusin

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Re: Renaissance Previews #3: Villain, Ducat, Silk Merchant
« Reply #29 on: September 26, 2018, 08:33:23 am »
+1

I agree with Chris is me on the worth of Silk Merchant. I have decent expectations for the card. Early on maybe the +2 cards doesn't end up conflicting with another terminal, and you have the Coffers token to hit a high price point after the draw. In fact, a Silk Merchant / Silver opening guarantees hitting $5 before the second reshuffle, and I'm sure many other Silk Merchant openings do as well.

Being a treasure possibly makes Ducat distinct enough from Candlestick maker, depending on the rest of the set. Typically you don't get too many Candlestick Makers unless there is a synergy with it somewhere (e.g. draw to X). I Imagine Ducat will be similar, though the Copper trashing on gain is neat.

Villain reminds me of Raider. The attack can be weak a lot of the time, but it can pack a punch at the right moment while producing decent economy.

Edit: Silk Merchant also lets you open with another 4-cost if you get it for $4 Turn One.
« Last Edit: September 26, 2018, 08:42:40 am by markusin »
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samath

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Re: Renaissance Previews #3: Villain, Ducat, Silk Merchant
« Reply #30 on: September 26, 2018, 08:51:24 am »
0

Today's previews video is up! Games with kaminarizumu, commentary (let's call it... interesting) by a variety of folks including Donald X. Also a complete misreading, and mispronunciation, of Ducat at first glance.

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ipofanes

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Re: Renaissance Previews #3: Villain, Ducat, Silk Merchant
« Reply #31 on: September 26, 2018, 09:06:19 am »
0

it's good Remake fuel, etc.
doesn't being good fuel means that it's a bad card?
A card with on-gain effect naturally has less to offer during its active phase. This one has an on-trash effect to boot. Of cause all three effects have to be weighed in total against their cost.

Also, there are the games where it will be grudgingly kept as the only source of +Buy. Like Skulk. During their active phase, I'd prefer Silk Merchant to Skulk.
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werothegreat

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Re: Renaissance Previews #3: Villain, Ducat, Silk Merchant
« Reply #32 on: September 26, 2018, 09:18:29 am »
+3

I adore that the art for Villain is Jaime Lannister lounging on the Iron Throne.
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SuperHans

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Re: Renaissance Previews #3: Villain, Ducat, Silk Merchant
« Reply #33 on: September 26, 2018, 09:27:21 am »
0

Procession and Silk Merchant will be a good combo.

I don't think SM is a power card, but I do think people are somewhat underrating the on-gain effect. If you open 4/3, you can grab a SM and a second 4-cost card on turn 2.

Also, if you purchase SM and a second terminal for your opening moves, you do not have to worry about them colliding, or the SM drawing the other terminal, because you will have that villager. Good flexibility in the early game.
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Re: Renaissance Previews #3: Villain, Ducat, Silk Merchant
« Reply #34 on: September 26, 2018, 09:34:01 am »
+1

I don't think SM is a power card, but I do think people are somewhat underrating the on-gain effect. If you open 4/3, you can grab a SM and a second 4-cost card on turn 2.

Yeah, but that's just the Nomad Camp thing all over again. You can open Nomad Camp/another $4 cost card, but if you do, you just essentially opened with Woodcutter/$4 cost card, which is just a regular 3/4 opening where the $3 is particularly weak.
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brokoli

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Re: Renaissance Previews #3: Villain, Ducat, Silk Merchant
« Reply #35 on: September 26, 2018, 09:35:30 am »
+4

I just had a game where I trashed catacombs with stonemason, to get 3 silk merchants for the 3 +actions I absolutely needed for my winning end game turn. Very satisfying.
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Willvon

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Re: Renaissance Previews #3: Villain, Ducat, Silk Merchant
« Reply #36 on: September 26, 2018, 09:52:04 am »
+2

I realize that the attack effect of Villain is weak, but we have other attacks that are also weak and still have their uses, such as Cutpurse. A lot of people, such as my wife, are not big fans of the stronger attacks. This one I think they will like because it is an attack that will sometimes hurt, but not be too mean. And, of course, you also get the 2 coffers.

I play predominantly IRL with more casual gamers who don’t like a lot of “take that”. For us, I think it will be a card that will not be the most popular card on the board, but having those 2 coffers when you need them to push your money up enough to buy a Province or Colony where you drew a lot of green will be useful. And you get a little bit of an attack that could mess up someone’s hand at a critical time.

I think it’s biggest weakness will be its price point. There are likely to be too many other 5’s in the game that are more attractive. For the casual gamers and those with less experience with Dominion, I think this is going to be a great expansion to introduce to them right away.
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TheOthin

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Re: Renaissance Previews #3: Villain, Ducat, Silk Merchant
« Reply #37 on: September 26, 2018, 09:52:45 am »
0

I don't think SM is a power card, but I do think people are somewhat underrating the on-gain effect. If you open 4/3, you can grab a SM and a second 4-cost card on turn 2.

Yeah, but that's just the Nomad Camp thing all over again. You can open Nomad Camp/another $4 cost card, but if you do, you just essentially opened with Woodcutter/$4 cost card, which is just a regular 3/4 opening where the $3 is particularly weak.

I'd say +2 Cards, +1 Buy, on-gain Villager, and more stuff if you trash it adds up to quite a bit more than what Woodcutter has to offer for $3.
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Awaclus

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Re: Renaissance Previews #3: Villain, Ducat, Silk Merchant
« Reply #38 on: September 26, 2018, 09:57:02 am »
0

I don't think SM is a power card, but I do think people are somewhat underrating the on-gain effect. If you open 4/3, you can grab a SM and a second 4-cost card on turn 2.

Yeah, but that's just the Nomad Camp thing all over again. You can open Nomad Camp/another $4 cost card, but if you do, you just essentially opened with Woodcutter/$4 cost card, which is just a regular 3/4 opening where the $3 is particularly weak.

I'd say +2 Cards, +1 Buy, on-gain Villager, and more stuff if you trash it adds up to quite a bit more than what Woodcutter has to offer for $3.

Maybe the on-gain Villager is what makes it worthwhile, but +2 cards +1 buy is not really any better than what Woodcutter has to offer.
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crj

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Re: Renaissance Previews #3: Villain, Ducat, Silk Merchant
« Reply #39 on: September 26, 2018, 10:03:13 am »
+2

I wonder...

If you have a Watchtower in hand and Spice Merchant in the supply, is a $4 buy for 2 coin tokens and 2 Villagers a good deal?
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trivialknot

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Re: Renaissance Previews #3: Villain, Ducat, Silk Merchant
« Reply #40 on: September 26, 2018, 10:06:40 am »
+1

+cards +buy is usually a strong effect. Wharf, Margrave, Council Room, Tragic Hero, Ranger--even the weaker ones of the bunch are pretty okay.  You're probably sad if Silk Merchant is your only draw, or worse, if it's your only village.  But if you need +buy, Silk Merchant is there for you.

And that's not even talking about the on-gain effect, which seems particularly good in the opener.  Usually I don't like to get terminal-draw/terminal in the opener because collision rates are so high.
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markus

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Re: Renaissance Previews #3: Villain, Ducat, Silk Merchant
« Reply #41 on: September 26, 2018, 10:13:17 am »
0

And that's not even talking about the on-gain effect, which seems particularly good in the opener.  Usually I don't like to get terminal-draw/terminal in the opener because collision rates are so high.
Also opening together with a non-terminal card is much nicer if you have that Villager for emergencies: you wouldn't want to open Smithy with Page, but Silk Merchant with Page seems ok.
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markusin

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Re: Renaissance Previews #3: Villain, Ducat, Silk Merchant
« Reply #42 on: September 26, 2018, 10:14:12 am »
0

I don't think SM is a power card, but I do think people are somewhat underrating the on-gain effect. If you open 4/3, you can grab a SM and a second 4-cost card on turn 2.

Yeah, but that's just the Nomad Camp thing all over again. You can open Nomad Camp/another $4 cost card, but if you do, you just essentially opened with Woodcutter/$4 cost card, which is just a regular 3/4 opening where the $3 is particularly weak.

I'd say +2 Cards, +1 Buy, on-gain Villager, and more stuff if you trash it adds up to quite a bit more than what Woodcutter has to offer for $3.

Maybe the on-gain Villager is what makes it worthwhile, but +2 cards +1 buy is not really any better than what Woodcutter has to offer.

+2 cards +1 buy is Moat with +buy, similar to how Tragic Hero is Smithy with +buy (and a conditional self-trash effect). Early on, Moat is not great, and neither is Moat with +buy. Now Silk Merchant is quite good for its cycling as an opener so long and you have villagers, but once you spend your villagers it is a big liability until you get more villages or Villagers.
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Chappy7

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Re: Renaissance Previews #3: Villain, Ducat, Silk Merchant
« Reply #43 on: September 26, 2018, 10:20:36 am »
+1

But actually, how do you pronounce that word?

'dʌ.kət (DUH-cut). Classic English vowel reduction, taking all the fun out of words.

Yeah I'm going to go with Dew-Kat
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Eran of Arcadia

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Re: Renaissance Previews #3: Villain, Ducat, Silk Merchant
« Reply #44 on: September 26, 2018, 10:21:38 am »
+1

I wonder...

If you have a Watchtower in hand and Spice Merchant in the supply, is a $4 buy for 2 coin tokens and 2 Villagers a good deal?

Spice Tower

Event - $4

Gain 2 Coffers and 2 Villagers
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SuperHans

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Re: Renaissance Previews #3: Villain, Ducat, Silk Merchant
« Reply #45 on: September 26, 2018, 10:24:45 am »
0

I don't think SM is a power card, but I do think people are somewhat underrating the on-gain effect. If you open 4/3, you can grab a SM and a second 4-cost card on turn 2.

Yeah, but that's just the Nomad Camp thing all over again. You can open Nomad Camp/another $4 cost card, but if you do, you just essentially opened with Woodcutter/$4 cost card, which is just a regular 3/4 opening where the $3 is particularly weak.
It's particularly good when there is a TfB available, especially one that costs 4 or less such as Procession or Remake.

For example:

Turn 1: SM
Turn 2: Procession
Turn 3: Procession the SM. Now you have a $5 card, $5-8 to spend this turn (4-7 copper and the coffer), and two villagers. You're also shuffling your discard pile for Turn 4.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Renaissance Previews #3: Villain, Ducat, Silk Merchant
« Reply #46 on: September 26, 2018, 10:28:50 am »
+10

I always have trouble keeping Spice Merchant and Silk Road straight in terms of the names. Silk Merchant will help a lot.  ;D
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GendoIkari

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Re: Renaissance Previews #3: Villain, Ducat, Silk Merchant
« Reply #47 on: September 26, 2018, 10:33:53 am »
+8

Also, even though the spelling is different, I will never read "Ducat" without picturing this:

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crj

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Re: Renaissance Previews #3: Villain, Ducat, Silk Merchant
« Reply #48 on: September 26, 2018, 10:34:33 am »
+7

Hey, it could be worse: we could also have Merchant, Merchant Guild, Highway, Trade Route, Trade, Trader, Horse Traders and Trading Post.
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SuperHans

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Re: Renaissance Previews #3: Villain, Ducat, Silk Merchant
« Reply #49 on: September 26, 2018, 10:34:55 am »
+1

I always have trouble keeping Spice Merchant and Silk Road straight in terms of the names. Silk Merchant will help a lot.  ;D
Try playing a game with Merchant, Wine Merchant, Spice Merchant, Silk Merchant, Silk Road, Merchant Guild, and Merchant Ship.

Edit: crj beat me to it
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