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Author Topic: Renaissance Previews #3: Villain, Ducat, Silk Merchant  (Read 6102 times)

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Donald X.

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Renaissance Previews #3: Villain, Ducat, Silk Merchant
« on: September 26, 2018, 03:00:05 am »
+36

Coffers are like Villagers but for coins. Bam. Also Coffers appeared already in Guilds, though it wasn't called that until the later printing. It's money you can save for later. You can only cash in the tokens before buying cards; they make +$1 each. Guilds originally said "take a coin token"; this set says "+1 Coffers."



Villain has +2 Coffers, there you go, it's that easy. It makes the other players discard something good, except early on they'll have Estates and later on Provinces. But you know, in the middle there, it demands a good card.

Ducat is the Coffers treasure. If you have a Copper in hand when you get it, it essentially upgrades the Copper into a kind of save-able Copper.

Silk Merchant spills out tokens both coming and going. You may even get use out of it in the middle.
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Awaclus

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Re: Renaissance Previews #3: Villain, Ducat, Silk Merchant
« Reply #1 on: September 26, 2018, 03:03:43 am »
+2

Is it just me or do Villain and Silk Merchant seem pretty weak?

Ducat is this close to being strictly better than Candlestick Maker and CSM is alright so I guess Ducat is at least alright.
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faust

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Re: Renaissance Previews #3: Villain, Ducat, Silk Merchant
« Reply #2 on: September 26, 2018, 03:06:49 am »
+5

Ducat is this close to being strictly better than Candlestick Maker and CSM is alright so I guess Ducat is at least alright.
Moreover, it really is pretty much the same as Candlestick Maker. I'm slightly confused why this card exists. Maybe the Copper exchange thing is more useful than it looks.
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Since the number of points is within a constant factor of the number of city quarters, in the long run we can get (4 - ε) ↑↑ n points in n turns for any ε > 0.

mee

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Re: Renaissance Previews #3: Villain, Ducat, Silk Merchant
« Reply #3 on: September 26, 2018, 03:07:59 am »
+6

on of the usefull things about cm is the draw to x
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BlackHole

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Re: Renaissance Previews #3: Villain, Ducat, Silk Merchant
« Reply #4 on: September 26, 2018, 03:08:15 am »
0

Is it just me or do Villain and Silk Merchant seem pretty weak?

Ducat is this close to being strictly better than Candlestick Maker and CSM is alright so I guess Ducat is at least alright.
Apart from that you actually cant use the coin token the turn you play Ducat? (Modulo the usual suspects)
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faust

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Re: Renaissance Previews #3: Villain, Ducat, Silk Merchant
« Reply #5 on: September 26, 2018, 03:10:21 am »
+2

Villain seems a bit weak, I agree. It could get significantly better with cost reduction though. Silk Merchant is fine; +2 cards +1 buy seems okay for $3, and it basically costs $3 as it gives you a Coffers back, and then you get the Villager on top, which means that on a play of your choice this can be a Lab+
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Since the number of points is within a constant factor of the number of city quarters, in the long run we can get (4 - ε) ↑↑ n points in n turns for any ε > 0.

faust

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Re: Renaissance Previews #3: Villain, Ducat, Silk Merchant
« Reply #6 on: September 26, 2018, 03:11:09 am »
0

Is it just me or do Villain and Silk Merchant seem pretty weak?

Ducat is this close to being strictly better than Candlestick Maker and CSM is alright so I guess Ducat is at least alright.
Apart from that you actually cant use the coin token the turn you play Ducat? (Modulo the usual suspects)
Ah, yes, that makes it significantly different.
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Since the number of points is within a constant factor of the number of city quarters, in the long run we can get (4 - ε) ↑↑ n points in n turns for any ε > 0.

Holunder9

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Re: Renaissance Previews #3: Villain, Ducat, Silk Merchant
« Reply #7 on: September 26, 2018, 03:11:24 am »
0

Is it just me or do Villain and Silk Merchant seem pretty weak?
You can interpret Silk Merchant as being, when you play it the first time, a Laboratory and a Market and afterwards +2 Card +1 Buy although the tokens do of course allow more flexibility.
So I don't think that it is weak. It also compares decently with Ranger's +2.5 Cards +1 Buy (yeah, I know that this is quite superficial and that Ranger is better than the average).
« Last Edit: September 26, 2018, 03:14:07 am by Holunder9 »
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Awaclus

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Re: Renaissance Previews #3: Villain, Ducat, Silk Merchant
« Reply #8 on: September 26, 2018, 03:13:07 am »
+15

Apart from that you actually cant use the coin token the turn you play Ducat? (Modulo the usual suspects)

I'm pretty sure you can. You can already spend coin tokens after playing your Treasures.
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trivialknot

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Re: Renaissance Previews #3: Villain, Ducat, Silk Merchant
« Reply #9 on: September 26, 2018, 03:18:51 am »
+1

My first impression is that Villain joins Tragic Hero in the party of cards that look weak next to another overpowered card (Tragic Hero:Margrave::Villain:Butcher).  But really I think Butcher would be alright if it didn't have the trashing part, so I think Villain is alright.
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Re: Renaissance Previews #3: Villain, Ducat, Silk Merchant
« Reply #10 on: September 26, 2018, 03:44:50 am »
+9

Those Silk Merchants are surprisingly well-suited for battle; you should definitely Recruit them.
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Since the number of points is within a constant factor of the number of city quarters, in the long run we can get (4 - ε) ↑↑ n points in n turns for any ε > 0.

brokoli

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Re: Renaissance Previews #3: Villain, Ducat, Silk Merchant
« Reply #11 on: September 26, 2018, 03:44:57 am »
+1

Slightly disappointing preview because I would have expected more creative uses of coin tokens (like we had with butcher and merchant guild).
Villain seems ok to me : in games with no fast trashing, it can hurt a lot in a hand with 3/4 coppers and no estates. This makes me think that with villain in the game, you may ocacasionnally want to trash coppers before estate.
The most important part of silk merchant seems to be the villager gaining. It will make gainers and trash for benefit better, I like the synergy potential there. But +2 cards is still sad and I guess too often you will skip the silk merchant and go straight for a +3 card draw instead.

I, too, dislike ducat for being too close (and stronger) than candlestick maker. Of course candlestick maker had the draw to x / conspirator / peddler / tokens synergy, but apart of that I think it's still pretty uncommon that you would take candlestick maker over ducat.
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RTT

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Re: Renaissance Previews #3: Villain, Ducat, Silk Merchant
« Reply #12 on: September 26, 2018, 03:50:06 am »
+7

Live reaction video is available soon.
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J Reggie

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Re: Renaissance Previews #3: Villain, Ducat, Silk Merchant
« Reply #13 on: September 26, 2018, 04:26:17 am »
+2

[Insert joke about Making Fun and Ducats]. But actually, how do you pronounce that word?

I'm glad we're getting some +buy in the previews. I was getting a lot of games without it.

Minotaur

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Re: Renaissance Previews #3: Villain, Ducat, Silk Merchant
« Reply #14 on: September 26, 2018, 04:29:59 am »
+1

Ducat is S-tier "easier to play in real life".  Can't remember what else is S-tier off the top of my head.

EDIT:  Probably anything with coffers.  I've never owned Adventures online, so there's that.
« Last Edit: September 26, 2018, 04:31:07 am by Minotaur »
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Asper

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Re: Renaissance Previews #3: Villain, Ducat, Silk Merchant
« Reply #15 on: September 26, 2018, 04:47:57 am »
0

Is it just me or do Villain and Silk Merchant seem pretty weak?

Ducat is this close to being strictly better than Candlestick Maker and CSM is alright so I guess Ducat is at least alright.
Apart from that you actually cant use the coin token the turn you play Ducat? (Modulo the usual suspects)

I'm pretty sure you can.

markus

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Re: Renaissance Previews #3: Villain, Ducat, Silk Merchant
« Reply #16 on: September 26, 2018, 04:51:11 am »
+2

Quote from: Making Fun FAQ
Ducats and Favors are now the coins of the realm.
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Donald X.

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Re: Renaissance Previews #3: Villain, Ducat, Silk Merchant
« Reply #17 on: September 26, 2018, 05:02:31 am »
+8

Ducat is S-tier "easier to play in real life".
Note that ShuffleIT now allows you to undo the "play all treasures" button without it asking your opponent for permission. A change specifically made with Ducat in mind.

I feel like anyone else can answer this kind of question, but yes, guys, hello, you can use the Ducat +1 Coffers the turn you play it, barring edge cases.

Ducats were actual Renaissance-era coins, and are not a reference to anyone who the person who took over Goko may have once picked to make online Dominion.
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Minotaur

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Re: Renaissance Previews #3: Villain, Ducat, Silk Merchant
« Reply #18 on: September 26, 2018, 05:05:44 am »
0

Ducat is S-tier "easier to play in real life".
Note that ShuffleIT now allows you to undo the "play all treasures" button without it asking your opponent for permission. A change specifically made with Ducat in mind.

My mistake is that I tend to start buying before I play my tokens.  A few more games and I'd probably be better.

EDIT:  Oh right, because you might forget to withhold a Copper or two.  Yeah, I screwed that up as well.  Good move, ShuffleIT
« Last Edit: September 26, 2018, 05:07:38 am by Minotaur »
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Re: Renaissance Previews #3: Villain, Ducat, Silk Merchant
« Reply #19 on: September 26, 2018, 05:21:08 am »
+4

Sculptor->Ducat could be pretty good.
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Minotaur

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Re: Renaissance Previews #3: Villain, Ducat, Silk Merchant
« Reply #20 on: September 26, 2018, 05:39:06 am »
0

Sculptor->Ducat could be pretty good.

You'd think that's what the Mint is for, but mostly they don't like each other that much...
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Sheogorath

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Re: Renaissance Previews #3: Villain, Ducat, Silk Merchant
« Reply #21 on: September 26, 2018, 05:52:32 am »
0

Sculptor->Ducat could be pretty good.

Seer/Ducat was pretty fun to play.

Sacrifice/Silk Merchant was also a fun synergy.
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crlundy

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Re: Renaissance Previews #3: Villain, Ducat, Silk Merchant
« Reply #22 on: September 26, 2018, 06:00:44 am »
+2

But actually, how do you pronounce that word?

'dʌ.kət (DUH-cut). Classic English vowel reduction, taking all the fun out of words.
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Ethan

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Re: Renaissance Previews #3: Villain, Ducat, Silk Merchant
« Reply #23 on: September 26, 2018, 06:21:38 am »
+1

Duact's Art looks like Lucky Coin.
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Chris is me

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Re: Renaissance Previews #3: Villain, Ducat, Silk Merchant
« Reply #24 on: September 26, 2018, 07:06:31 am »
+4

Silk Merchant looks great, I dunno why you guys are down on it.

In the opening, if your first hand is $4 it lets you buy another $4 cost card. You can play it T3 or T4 to get a clear deck leading into the second shuffle, and you have a Villager in case you dead draw your other $4. Even outside of that opening, it's cheap draw that you can gain nonterminally with any Workshop variant, it's good Remake fuel, etc.

Ducat seems fine. Sometimes you want a Candlestick Maker, but you would prefer to be able to dead draw it. Or there's the copper thing. You probably buy it over Silver at some point in big money (after the first or second? I dunno).

Villain sure is a card.
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