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Author Topic: Brothel  (Read 472 times)

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Umadin

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Brothel
« on: September 25, 2018, 03:53:31 am »
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Had an idea for a card, it turned into this, thoughts?
Edit: for current version being workshopped.
« Last Edit: October 02, 2018, 07:29:34 pm by Umadin »
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Holunder9

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Re: Brothel
« Reply #1 on: September 25, 2018, 07:35:09 am »
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Of course you have to be careful about non-terminals that gain VP tokens but this would probably be weak even without taking 3 Debt.
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Asper

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Re: Brothel
« Reply #2 on: September 25, 2018, 08:55:35 am »
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Some issues that I feel are worth pointing out:

1. This can be worded much shorter as: +1 Action. You may play a Brothel from your hand. If you do +1 VP and take <3>.
2. The theme is rather bad.
3. Also the card is terribly weak.
4. Furthermore, if it was not weak, it would provide endless VP tokens, which cards shouldn't do. If they do, at least they should strongly encourage ending the game otherwise.
5. Minor gripe: The card goes into the depth of chained plays first before going back up to cash in the VP and debt.

An attempt to fix issues 1 to 4:

Hotel, Action, 4$
+2$
You may play a Hotel from your hand, for +1 VP.

Screwyioux

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Re: Brothel
« Reply #3 on: September 25, 2018, 08:59:51 am »
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The main problem people point to with non-terminal VP chip gainers is that they don't do anything to end the game, so you can build a deck that just plays them and does nothing else (which might actually be powerful with this one if you have draw or thinning). I think if you reduced the debt but had it trash something from the supply, or make the points happen every other play and give money instead of debt or something then this becomes a pretty interesting card.

It just needs some way to encourage game end.

Btw, I like it overall, it's interesting.
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Screwyioux

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Re: Brothel
« Reply #4 on: September 25, 2018, 09:02:39 am »
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Btw, I actually don't think the card is weak. It certainly needs support, but with draw or thinning it could be pretty powerful. The endless VP tokens is a more valid complaint, hence my suggestion to give it something to push game end
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Asper

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Re: Brothel
« Reply #5 on: September 25, 2018, 09:07:33 am »
+2

Well, the card is terribly weak as part of a deck that wants to win in a conventional way. If you trash down to five of these and don't intend to ever buy another card, you can just ammass debt like crazy and get +4VP per turn. If your opponent cannot end the game while in the lead, this will make you both just starve to death, as you can't end the game and they won't.

Pretty much exactly this concept came up in the German forum once, and all I can say is, getting both debt and VP tokens without removing any cards from the game is bad news.

Umadin

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Re: Brothel
« Reply #6 on: September 25, 2018, 12:27:07 pm »
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Thank you for the feedback Screwey, Asper and Holunder!  I consider all your contributions in this forum incredible and Iím not new to Dominion but new to the thought process of crafting cards.  I thought it was a little weak with concerns but thought it better to refine up then down, so lets dial it up!  You all make very valid points here.  What if this were changed like so:
« Last Edit: September 25, 2018, 02:37:04 pm by Umadin »
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GendoIkari

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Re: Brothel
« Reply #7 on: September 25, 2018, 01:03:29 pm »
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The new version is confusing... what is getting trashed? A card from the supply, or from their hand? If it's from their hand, it's WAY too strong... look at Pillage; the only way to remove a specific card from a player's hand (other than Cutpurse). It's a terminal one-shot that discards the card; you've made a non-terminal that trashes the card.

If you mean trash it from the supply, like Lurker or Salt of the Earth, then it's not clear why it's an attack, or why your opponents should reveal their hands at all. Just to limit what card you are allowed to trash?
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Holunder9

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Re: Brothel
« Reply #8 on: September 25, 2018, 01:10:54 pm »
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If I understand this correctly you name e.g. Copper in a 3P game and then 2 Coppers from the Supply land in the trash. In this case you don't need the revealing of hands, it just slows down games.

I fear that this could lead to too much pile control, even more than Lurker, cost reducers and Salt. On the other hand it is not like the opponents don't see it coming that you go for Brothel so if they try to win conventionally via Provinces they can still react to you trashing Provinces and gaining VPs via Brothel. I'd get rid of the Debt though, it just incentives you, as Asper has pointed out, even more to "go all in", i.e. to only win via VPs. Arguably this problem is even more pronounced with Brothel 2.0 as you now have pile control.

I'd test something simple, like the first version but without Debt. There is the issue though of the infinite loop that Asper mentioned, a deck than can generate 4VPs every turn and potentially more if it is supported by draw. So you could simply make Brothel non-terminal (and provide a Coin to compensate and make it closer to Asper's Hotell which is again closer to Monument) to make this harder. You'd just need a Village to then play your 5 Brothels but it nonetheless makes it trickier.
While I also think that it isn't strictly wrong to do non-terminal Cultist versions (+1 Card +1 Action |You may play a Weak Village from your hand. would e.g. be a perfectly fine $2 Village) I also think that a card that does something problematic like gaining VP tokens should be careful about such things.
« Last Edit: September 25, 2018, 01:13:24 pm by Holunder9 »
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Umadin

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Re: Brothel
« Reply #9 on: September 25, 2018, 03:15:55 pm »
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The new version is confusing... what is getting trashed? A card from the supply, or from their hand? If it's from their hand, it's WAY too strong...

Perhaps this wording would be clearer:



As far as pile control, without being overly effective that seemed to be a reasonable direction to go to move it towards something worth purchasing.  I rather like the debt hampering your provence path but allowwing vpís to be gained.  The mechanic just doesnít seem as interesting if itís:

« Last Edit: September 25, 2018, 03:23:30 pm by Umadin »
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Holunder9

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Re: Brothel
« Reply #10 on: September 25, 2018, 03:22:32 pm »
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The new version is confusing... what is getting trashed? A card from the supply, or from their hand? If it's from their hand, it's WAY too strong...

Perhaps this wording would be clearer:



As far as pile control, without being overly effective that seemed to be a reasonable direction to go to move it towards something worth purchasing.
This doesn't work. As GendoIkari has pointed out, Pillage shows that seeing the hand and then discarding a card is already extremly strong whereas forcing other players to trash powerful cards from their hand is crazy. The very threat of naming Province prevents everybody from greening normally so the card will totally dominate the game. If you get unlucky the other player can trash a lot of your Brothels and then you are out of the game.
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Umadin

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Re: Brothel
« Reply #11 on: September 25, 2018, 04:02:12 pm »
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The new version is confusing... what is getting trashed? A card from the supply, or from their hand? If it's from their hand, it's WAY too strong...

Perhaps this wording would be clearer:



As far as pile control, without being overly effective that seemed to be a reasonable direction to go to move it towards something worth purchasing.
This doesn't work. As GendoIkari has pointed out, Pillage shows that seeing the hand and then discarding a card is already extremly strong whereas forcing other players to trash powerful cards from their hand is crazy. The very threat of naming Province prevents everybody from greening normally so the card will totally dominate the game. If you get unlucky the other player can trash a lot of your Brothels and then you are out of the game.

I agree discarding from someones hand is a powerful action and certainly more powerful then trashing from the supply a copy of a card found in someones hand.  A card costing 4 that only serves to lower a card from the supply unless you see two in your hand seems a minor compliment to unweaken the card to me.

Also, clearer wording again:
« Last Edit: September 25, 2018, 04:36:53 pm by Umadin »
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GendoIkari

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Re: Brothel
« Reply #12 on: September 25, 2018, 04:45:56 pm »
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Ok the new wording is clearer... but my second question remains... why bother having them reveal their hand? Limiting which cards you are allowed to trash from the supply just feels arbitrary; and it will be very random. It doesn't seem like it should be an attack; it doesn't hurt your opponents at all. Allowing you to trash 1 card from the supply per opponent instead of always just 1 card also seems like a strange way of scaling with more players.
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Umadin

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Re: Brothel
« Reply #13 on: September 25, 2018, 05:04:39 pm »
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Ok the new wording is clearer... but my second question remains... why bother having them reveal their hand? Limiting which cards you are allowed to trash from the supply just feels arbitrary; and it will be very random. It doesn't seem like it should be an attack; it doesn't hurt your opponents at all. Allowing you to trash 1 card from the supply per opponent instead of always just 1 card also seems like a strange way of scaling with more players.

I believe getting to choose which supply piles decrease will deplete supplies of their strategy,  incite end conditions more in your control and address the valid concern for not depleating cards from the supply while using the card.  Choosing from oponents hands also scales better then choosing one of your choice, would it be better to choose a supply pile per player without the reveal mechanic?  I donít think so.  I think if I did that it would be too effective too quickly and diminish clearly sought supply piles for other strategies too soon and too consistantly.  It shouldnít be that guaranteed, but still happening.

Just choosing one may be better though... imagine a 4 player game with one of these played by each player one round... 12 cards poof.... yeah...

One card actually scales better... updating OP
« Last Edit: September 25, 2018, 07:10:55 pm by Umadin »
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popsofctown

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Re: Brothel
« Reply #14 on: September 25, 2018, 07:29:17 pm »
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You can trash your deck down to 4 Brothels, go into infinite debt, never buy cards, and choose to trash Copper over and over again.
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Umadin

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Re: Brothel
« Reply #15 on: September 25, 2018, 08:05:43 pm »
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You can trash your deck down to 4 Brothels, go into infinite debt, never buy cards, and choose to trash Copper over and over again.

With 4 brothels and nothing else (How many turns did that take to set up?) a  hand of 4 going down would produce 3VP 6 Debt.  Why would you trash coppers from the supply?

Itís main mechanic is not an attack but can shave down a kingdom card an opponent is sure to buy for days, hopefully allowing you to deplete it and prevent that last one or two in their deck.  Doing this also complements and tips the intention for a 3 deck endgame which is still rarely incentivized but to have this for $4 isnít worth it.  Investing just the right amount will lower your purchasing power (because it takes two $4 purchases to get interesting) but gives you VP tokens here or there if you can manage or manipulate to see more then one together in your hand.  Also, playing extras from hand  provides a possible multiple + action option in a game that may not have + actions.  While using it, the game will excellerate a bit in the direction of 3 deck end and can pose the question wether holding out brothel for a province focused strategy is now closer to par with that province strategy which is a question that seems to me when it is posed during strategy building it makes for an interesting game.
« Last Edit: September 25, 2018, 09:56:58 pm by Umadin »
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Holunder9

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Re: Brothel
« Reply #16 on: September 26, 2018, 02:42:55 am »
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You can trash your deck down to 4 Brothels, go into infinite debt, never buy cards, and choose to trash Copper over and over again.

With 4 brothels and nothing else (How many turns did that take to set up?) a  hand of 4 going down would produce 3VP 6 Debt.  Why would you trash coppers from the supply?
Yeah, you'd just trash Provinces if you are ahead with your VP engine to quickly end it and hurt however doesn't try to win via Brothel.
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Umadin

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Re: Brothel
« Reply #17 on: September 26, 2018, 03:47:52 am »
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Considering it in a game with Bishop and Monument it seems pretty underpowered still.  I like the focus on controlled depletion in the card so hereís a bit of a shift:
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Asper

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Re: Brothel
« Reply #18 on: September 26, 2018, 05:47:44 am »
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Assuming you are using the fantastic card image generator, have you tried putting the "$" before the "1"? This should make the number overlap the coin icon.

Umadin

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Re: Brothel
« Reply #19 on: September 26, 2018, 01:51:59 pm »
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I am and that is how its formatted  :-\

Im working with it on my ios phone in chrome though.
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Re: Brothel
« Reply #20 on: September 27, 2018, 01:37:51 am »
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You'd need 5 of them I guess, at which point it's not feasible.
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Umadin

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Re: Brothel
« Reply #21 on: September 27, 2018, 07:56:49 pm »
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You'd need 5 of them I guess, at which point it's not feasible.

Well with just two at the begining of your turn your left with:
+ $2
+ 2 Actions
Trash two cards from the supply that are the path of your oponents strategy.
+ 1 VP

... still seems weak to me really... lets try +2 VP
« Last Edit: October 02, 2018, 07:21:12 pm by Umadin »
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