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Author Topic: Renaissance Previews #1: Mountain Village, Priest, Seer, Scholar, Experiment  (Read 12573 times)

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LastFootnote

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Re: Renaissance Previews #1: Mountain Village, Priest, Seer, Scholar, Experiment
« Reply #50 on: September 24, 2018, 11:39:16 am »
+6

I'm interested to hear the discussion behind the wording of Experiment. It's really awkward, but I can't think of a better wording off the top of my head.

"You gain these in pairs." --> then explain this in the rulebook.

Donald X. did consider this wording, or one very like it. I was, and still am, vehemently against it. It's even less precise than the final wording.
« Last Edit: September 24, 2018, 11:40:46 am by LastFootnote »
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SuperHans

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Re: Renaissance Previews #1: Mountain Village, Priest, Seer, Scholar, Experiment
« Reply #51 on: September 24, 2018, 11:42:27 am »
0

I'm interested to hear the discussion behind the wording of Experiment. It's really awkward, but I can't think of a better wording off the top of my head.

"You gain these in pairs." --> then explain this in the rulebook.

Donald X. did consider this wording, or one very like it. I was, and still am, vehemently against it. It's even less precise than the final wording.

Final wording is precise, which is what matters.
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jonts26

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Re: Renaissance Previews #1: Mountain Village, Priest, Seer, Scholar, Experiment
« Reply #52 on: September 24, 2018, 11:46:31 am »
+2

Mountain Village seems quite strong for a village. It acts like an accelerant when you're not drawing deck, letting you replay key cards one shuffle, or the new card you just bought last turn. Once you are drawing deck it behaves just like a normal village (with maybe some mid-turn gain shenanigans), but by that point, it's done a lot of extra work for you.
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Cuzz

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Re: Renaissance Previews #1: Mountain Village, Priest, Seer, Scholar, Experiment
« Reply #53 on: September 24, 2018, 12:07:53 pm »
+1

Mountain Village seems quite strong for a village. It acts like an accelerant when you're not drawing deck, letting you replay key cards one shuffle, or the new card you just bought last turn. Once you are drawing deck it behaves just like a normal village (with maybe some mid-turn gain shenanigans), but by that point, it's done a lot of extra work for you.

It has a slight drawback in that it anti-synergizes with sifting, because you are forced to draw stuff that you wanted to discard. But in most cases I agree it seems very strong.
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Re: Renaissance Previews #1: Mountain Village, Priest, Seer, Scholar, Experiment
« Reply #54 on: September 24, 2018, 12:09:44 pm »
+2

Mountain Village seems quite strong for a village. It acts like an accelerant when you're not drawing deck, letting you replay key cards one shuffle, or the new card you just bought last turn. Once you are drawing deck it behaves just like a normal village (with maybe some mid-turn gain shenanigans), but by that point, it's done a lot of extra work for you.

It has a slight drawback in that it anti-synergizes with sifting, because you are forced to draw stuff that you wanted to discard. But in most cases I agree it seems very strong.
Also turning Militia attacks into Ghost Ship.

Lot of upside, but definitely some downsides.
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Re: Renaissance Previews #1: Mountain Village, Priest, Seer, Scholar, Experiment
« Reply #55 on: September 24, 2018, 12:14:06 pm »
0

Mountain Village seems quite strong for a village. It acts like an accelerant when you're not drawing deck, letting you replay key cards one shuffle, or the new card you just bought last turn. Once you are drawing deck it behaves just like a normal village (with maybe some mid-turn gain shenanigans), but by that point, it's done a lot of extra work for you.

It has a slight drawback in that it anti-synergizes with sifting, because you are forced to draw stuff that you wanted to discard. But in most cases I agree it seems very strong.

Sort of - it's as if your sifter discarded one less card. Obviously you'd prefer a regular Village there, but it's not quite a Necropolis.
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Neirai the Forgiven

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Re: Renaissance Previews #1: Mountain Village, Priest, Seer, Scholar, Experiment
« Reply #56 on: September 24, 2018, 12:31:39 pm »
+3

I'm interested to hear the discussion behind the wording of Experiment. It's really awkward, but I can't think of a better wording off the top of my head.

"You gain these in pairs." --> then explain this in the rulebook.

Donald X. did consider this wording, or one very like it. I was, and still am, vehemently against it. It's even less precise than the final wording.

Final wording is precise, which is what matters.

This is exactly what happens when you make a suggestion after thinking for 30 minutes rather than years and years. You find out that you are just retreading ground that was covered a long time ago.
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Re: Renaissance Previews #1: Mountain Village, Priest, Seer, Scholar, Experiment
« Reply #57 on: September 24, 2018, 12:33:13 pm »
+20

Priest would be broken with Watchtower and Travelling Fair. If you play two Priests and have a Watchtower in hand, you can alternate between buying Travelling fairs and Coppers (then curses) for a net gain of 112 coins, giving you more than enough money to buy all the provinces.
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Re: Renaissance Previews #1: Mountain Village, Priest, Seer, Scholar, Experiment
« Reply #58 on: September 24, 2018, 12:43:25 pm »
+2

Priest would be broken with Watchtower and Travelling Fair. If you play two Priests and have a Watchtower in hand, you can alternate between buying Travelling fairs and Coppers (then curses) for a net gain of 112 coins, giving you more than enough money to buy all the provinces.

Even with a single Priest, you can trash all the Coppers and Curses, which makes a three pile extremely easy.
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Re: Renaissance Previews #1: Mountain Village, Priest, Seer, Scholar, Experiment
« Reply #59 on: September 24, 2018, 12:47:44 pm »
+3

The simplicity; I love it!
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Re: Renaissance Previews #1: Mountain Village, Priest, Seer, Scholar, Experiment
« Reply #60 on: September 24, 2018, 12:51:05 pm »
+7

Priest would be broken with Watchtower and Travelling Fair. If you play two Priests and have a Watchtower in hand, you can alternate between buying Travelling fairs and Coppers (then curses) for a net gain of 112 coins, giving you more than enough money to buy all the provinces.
The worst thing about this is how extremely tedious it would be to actually play out online.
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Re: Renaissance Previews #1: Mountain Village, Priest, Seer, Scholar, Experiment
« Reply #61 on: September 24, 2018, 01:00:27 pm »
+6

Priest would be broken with Watchtower and Travelling Fair. If you play two Priests and have a Watchtower in hand, you can alternate between buying Travelling fairs and Coppers (then curses) for a net gain of 112 coins, giving you more than enough money to buy all the provinces.
Even with a single Priest, you can trash all the Coppers and Curses, which makes a three pile extremely easy.

Actually, for this reason, I suspect that the combo in practice would often not be so broken--the first person to match a single priest and watchtower could pre-emptively obviate the combo by just emptying those piles.
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Robz888

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Re: Renaissance Previews #1: Mountain Village, Priest, Seer, Scholar, Experiment
« Reply #62 on: September 24, 2018, 01:05:47 pm »
+24

For old time's sake, presenting: COMBOS WITH SCOUT (RIP)

Mountain Village: One of the big problems with Scout is when you buy it, you don't get to play it until your next shuffle. But Mountain Village solves that problem by letting you pluck your freshly purchased Scout from your discard pile and put it into your hand. For better results, add in more Scouts (note: the pile is likely to run).

Seer: Scout can't draw itself. But Seer can draw Scout, and it will draw those pesky Estates so that Scout can draw the Victory cards you really want in hand, like Duchies or something.

Scholar: This makes you discard your hand, which is a huge problem: say goodbye to your precious green cards! That's where Scout comes in, drawing them back into your hand for you, where you want them.

Now I see why Donald had to remove Scout--he realized any game that had Renaissance cards and Scout would just be over too quickly.
« Last Edit: September 24, 2018, 03:16:12 pm by Robz888 »
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AJD

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Re: Renaissance Previews #1: Mountain Village, Priest, Seer, Scholar, Experiment
« Reply #63 on: September 24, 2018, 01:16:24 pm »
+3

Experiment is to Encampment as Port is to...

wait, that's not it...

I've got it!

Experiment ≈ Encampment XOR Port
« Last Edit: September 24, 2018, 01:18:01 pm by AJD »
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Re: Renaissance Previews #1: Mountain Village, Priest, Seer, Scholar, Experiment
« Reply #64 on: September 24, 2018, 02:01:20 pm »
+4

For old time's sake, presenting: COMBOS WITH SCOUT (RIP)

Mountain Village: One of the big problems with Scout is when you buy it, you don't get to play it until your next shuffle. But Mountain Village solves that problem by letting you pluck your freshly purchased Scout from your discard pile and put it into your hand. For better results, add in more Scouts (note: the pile is likely to run).

Seer: Scout cab't draw itself. But Seer can draw Scout, and it will draw those pesky Estates so that Scout can draw the Victory cards you really want in hand, like Duchies or something.

Scholar: This makes you discard your hand, which is a huge problem: say goodbye to your precious green cards! That's where Scout comes in, drawing them back into your hand for you, where you want them.

Now I see why Donald had to remove Scout--he realized any game that had Renaissance cards and Scout would just be over too quickly.

Priest: Trashes away everything other than Victory cards, so your Scouts draw more reliably.
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Re: Renaissance Previews #1: Mountain Village, Priest, Seer, Scholar, Experiment
« Reply #65 on: September 24, 2018, 04:14:05 pm »
+2

I'm so, so happy with the focus on simplicity and really excited to see the rest of the set. To me, Adventures, Empires, and Nocturne just complicate and obscure the fact that most strategic synergies are really elegant and simple. In general, I love cards that introduce one mechanic and make it viable (e.g. Chapel, Scheme, Smugglers, Fortress, Band of Misfits); I dislike cards that tack random effects together, at least when they are conceptually and strategically unrelated (e.g. Watchtower, Horse Traders, on-trash effects like Squire and Hunting Grounds, on-gain effects like Doctor and Herald).

Mountain Village seems quite strong for a village. It acts like an accelerant when you're not drawing deck, letting you replay key cards one shuffle, or the new card you just bought last turn. Once you are drawing deck it behaves just like a normal village (with maybe some mid-turn gain shenanigans), but by that point, it's done a lot of extra work for you.

It has a slight drawback in that it anti-synergizes with sifting, because you are forced to draw stuff that you wanted to discard. But in most cases I agree it seems very strong.

In my playing, it seems the anti-synergy can be mostly removed by playing around it appropriately. So, if you get Mountain Villages and Warehouses in the same deck, what you do is learn to discard a good card with Warehouse whenever necessary. Also this only matters just after a shuffle or if you have already sifted through your whole deck this turn and picked up all the actions.

Even if you get unlucky and have to discard something with Warehouse only to pick up the same thing again with Mountain Village, Warehouse + Mountain Village is the equivalent of "+2 actions, draw 3 cards, discard 2". Compared to a regular village, the net effect of the Warehouse here is "+1 action, +2 cards, discard 2", which is not as good as Warehouse was before, but still fine.

Overall I think Mountain Village is really strong. When you draw it with a lot of cards in your discard, it gets ridiculous, because you can chain all of the Mountain Villages before continuing with whatever action you want. (I tried with Scholar, which is interesting, but not directly a good synergy; you need lots of payload cards also also discard cards or at least don't draw, and sifters like Warehouse are not payloads.)

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Re: Renaissance Previews #1: Mountain Village, Priest, Seer, Scholar, Experiment
« Reply #66 on: September 24, 2018, 04:55:55 pm »
0

Sser is really quite good. If there's a board with mediocre cantrips, a vague amount of trashing, and maybe a Silver gainer, Seer turns that into a board where you could actually see your whole deck most turns.

We just had a 3p game where we first shared the castles and then went for provinces, whereas I stopped for a couple Forums plus X (no +buy in the Kingdom, who said that it was boring?) Discarding the $4 cards with Forums and then reaping the rewards with two Seers felt nice, but the icing was the two Bureaucrats I bought with my Forums, that were drawn by my Seers (along with the Silver they provided) and threw enough wrenches in my opponents' decks to allow me zipping past at the last but one turn.
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Chappy7

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Re: Renaissance Previews #1: Mountain Village, Priest, Seer, Scholar, Experiment
« Reply #67 on: September 24, 2018, 05:29:35 pm »
+3


In my playing, it seems the anti-synergy can be mostly removed by playing around it appropriately. So, if you get Mountain Villages and Warehouses in the same deck, what you do is learn to discard a good card with Warehouse whenever necessary.


But if you are discarding a good card rather than a bad card that is just as bad as discarding a bad card and picking it back up.
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jonts26

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Re: Renaissance Previews #1: Mountain Village, Priest, Seer, Scholar, Experiment
« Reply #68 on: September 24, 2018, 05:32:10 pm »
+2


In my playing, it seems the anti-synergy can be mostly removed by playing around it appropriately. So, if you get Mountain Villages and Warehouses in the same deck, what you do is learn to discard a good card with Warehouse whenever necessary.


But if you are discarding a good card rather than a bad card that is just as bad as discarding a bad card and picking it back up.

It still counteracts sifting. If your key card is 4 deep in the deck, forum and village gets you there but forum and MV doesn't.
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Re: Renaissance Previews #1: Mountain Village, Priest, Seer, Scholar, Experiment
« Reply #69 on: September 24, 2018, 06:27:48 pm »
0

Priest would be broken with Watchtower and Travelling Fair. If you play two Priests and have a Watchtower in hand, you can alternate between buying Travelling fairs and Coppers (then curses) for a net gain of 112 coins, giving you more than enough money to buy all the provinces.

Oh, that's a really good catch.  Not sure there's any way around it except to acknowledge that any given 3-card combo will only show up once in every X games.  I don't know what X is but it should be in the thousands I think.
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Re: Renaissance Previews #1: Mountain Village, Priest, Seer, Scholar, Experiment
« Reply #70 on: September 24, 2018, 07:04:34 pm »
0

Priest would be broken with Watchtower and Travelling Fair. If you play two Priests and have a Watchtower in hand, you can alternate between buying Travelling fairs and Coppers (then curses) for a net gain of 112 coins, giving you more than enough money to buy all the provinces.

Oh, that's a really good catch.  Not sure there's any way around it except to acknowledge that any given 3-card combo will only show up once in every X games.  I don't know what X is but it should be in the thousands I think.

Considerably more I would think, considering there are greater than 10^63 possible kingdoms if I remember correctly from that one thread where we were trying to calculate that.
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Re: Renaissance Previews #1: Mountain Village, Priest, Seer, Scholar, Experiment
« Reply #71 on: September 24, 2018, 07:15:34 pm »
0

And with every expansion it gets to be more!

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Re: Renaissance Previews #1: Mountain Village, Priest, Seer, Scholar, Experiment
« Reply #72 on: September 24, 2018, 07:19:33 pm »
0

Priest would be broken with Watchtower and Travelling Fair. If you play two Priests and have a Watchtower in hand, you can alternate between buying Travelling fairs and Coppers (then curses) for a net gain of 112 coins, giving you more than enough money to buy all the provinces.

Oh, that's a really good catch.  Not sure there's any way around it except to acknowledge that any given 3-card combo will only show up once in every X games.  I don't know what X is but it should be in the thousands I think.

Well not sure how it's different when it's 2 cards an event instead of 3 cards, but pretty sure the chance of a random Kingdom having a specific 3 cards is way way less than "thousands". I think it's to the point where we should simply never expect a random game to ever encounter it.
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Re: Renaissance Previews #1: Mountain Village, Priest, Seer, Scholar, Experiment
« Reply #73 on: September 24, 2018, 07:24:11 pm »
+6

Priest would be broken with Watchtower and Travelling Fair. If you play two Priests and have a Watchtower in hand, you can alternate between buying Travelling fairs and Coppers (then curses) for a net gain of 112 coins, giving you more than enough money to buy all the provinces.
I was actually able to pull this off on turn 9 of Game #18634180 with Salt the Earth instead of Watchtower. After playing three Priests, I alternated between buying Travelling Fairs and Salt the Earths until I trashed the Provinces.
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Re: Renaissance Previews #1: Mountain Village, Priest, Seer, Scholar, Experiment
« Reply #74 on: September 24, 2018, 07:49:15 pm »
+1

You could also use Travellinng Fair and Bonfire with 4 or more Priests to produce $3 or more per card you have in play. Could be a useful last turn gambit, and hey that's just a two card combo.
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