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Author Topic: Weekly Design Contests #1 - #100  (Read 1546464 times)

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D782802859

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Re: Weekly Design Contest Thread
« Reply #6825 on: August 23, 2020, 05:20:04 pm »
0

It also makes Tormentor much stronger, and it's plenty strong already.
What makes you assume that Tormentor is strong?

The Attack option is extremely weak. For example Witch has a better vanilla bonus and a far better Attack.
As the Imp option is only possible to trigger early in the game or later, if you forsake engine play and Durations (which is kinda pointless if you want Imp!), it hardly compensates for the weak Attack.

Tormentor is weak and Villagers are a pretty natural way to buff it.

I disagree, Tormentor is at least a solid card most of the time. Imps are pretty good, and stacking up Hexes can be pretty harmful.
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LordBaphomet

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Re: Weekly Design Contest Thread
« Reply #6826 on: August 23, 2020, 05:27:40 pm »
0

I have a similar contest about updating past cards in the "Card Updating Contest" thread, if any of you are interested. Sorry if this is off-topic.
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segura

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Re: Weekly Design Contest Thread
« Reply #6827 on: August 23, 2020, 06:18:52 pm »
+1

Imps are just so good

Maybe I wouldn't exactly say that it's strong generically. I'd say it's strong to open with because of Imps, pretty strong early, ok overall, and well-designed because getting imps is hard. With the modification, it's very strong at every point and pretty boring.

the powerlevel question seems noncentral though; the point is that it takes away interesting decisions.
Which interesting decision is taken away? Be concrete, what would you do with the Heirloom that you would not do otherwise (except getting Tormentor more often which is not about decisions but the power level of the card).

Tormentor is a very weak $5 which you will never ever buy early if there is a junker or trasher. You will only buy it later if you got the terminal space for a terminal Silver with a weak Attack on top, which is quite rare.
 Of course gaining Imps is very strong (but then again, with Lab variants in the Kingdom, Haggler can do the very same thing far more consistently) but you cannot pull that off often with Tormentor so why not buff it? It is not like we talk about buffing Mountebank, Cultist, Coven or some other ridiculously overpowered Attack but buffing a very weak and random Attack.

There is a reason so many Hex Attacks violate the terminal Attack principle: the Attack is weak and random. Nobody would e.g. ever get Skulk because of the Attack, you either want the Gold or are in dire need of the extra Buy. The Hex Attack never matters decisions-wise.
« Last Edit: August 23, 2020, 06:21:57 pm by segura »
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D782802859

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Re: Weekly Design Contest Thread
« Reply #6828 on: August 23, 2020, 06:31:20 pm »
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Imps are just so good

Maybe I wouldn't exactly say that it's strong generically. I'd say it's strong to open with because of Imps, pretty strong early, ok overall, and well-designed because getting imps is hard. With the modification, it's very strong at every point and pretty boring.

the powerlevel question seems noncentral though; the point is that it takes away interesting decisions.
Which interesting decision is taken away? Be concrete, what would you do with the Heirloom that you would not do otherwise (except getting Tormentor more often which is not about decisions but the power level of the card).

Tormentor is a very weak $5 which you will never ever buy early if there is a junker or trasher. You will only buy it later if you got the terminal space for a terminal Silver with a weak Attack on top, which is quite rare.
 Of course gaining Imps is very strong (but then again, with Lab variants in the Kingdom, Haggler can do the very same thing far more consistently) but you cannot pull that off often with Tormentor so why not buff it? It is not like we talk about buffing Mountebank, Cultist, Coven or some other ridiculously overpowered Attack but buffing a very weak and random Attack.

There is a reason so many Hex Attacks violate the terminal Attack principle: the Attack is weak and random. Nobody would e.g. ever get Skulk because of the Attack, you either want the Gold or are in dire need of the extra Buy. The Hex Attack never matters decisions-wise.

This removes the decision of gaining Tormentor or not. You either always gain it for Imps or never gain it because it improves other strategies more.
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alion8me

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Re: Weekly Design Contest Thread
« Reply #6829 on: August 23, 2020, 08:23:41 pm »
0

Imps are just so good

Maybe I wouldn't exactly say that it's strong generically. I'd say it's strong to open with because of Imps, pretty strong early, ok overall, and well-designed because getting imps is hard. With the modification, it's very strong at every point and pretty boring.

the powerlevel question seems noncentral though; the point is that it takes away interesting decisions.
Which interesting decision is taken away? Be concrete, what would you do with the Heirloom that you would not do otherwise (except getting Tormentor more often which is not about decisions but the power level of the card).

Tormentor is a very weak $5 which you will never ever buy early if there is a junker or trasher. You will only buy it later if you got the terminal space for a terminal Silver with a weak Attack on top, which is quite rare.
 Of course gaining Imps is very strong (but then again, with Lab variants in the Kingdom, Haggler can do the very same thing far more consistently) but you cannot pull that off often with Tormentor so why not buff it? It is not like we talk about buffing Mountebank, Cultist, Coven or some other ridiculously overpowered Attack but buffing a very weak and random Attack.

There is a reason so many Hex Attacks violate the terminal Attack principle: the Attack is weak and random. Nobody would e.g. ever get Skulk because of the Attack, you either want the Gold or are in dire need of the extra Buy. The Hex Attack never matters decisions-wise.

It's not really fair to ask "which interesting decision is taken away" and then exclude the category of decisions that is often most interesting with Tormentor. With Rack, Tormentor becomes a incredibly strong buy. This by itself isn't a bad thing, but in order to be a interesting strong card you ideally want to make it change the game in a way that forces you to play substantially differently than you would without the card. You can see this in official cards like Cathedral, Stockpile, and Goons - all three of these cards are incredibly powerful but they also fundamentally change the way you have to approach the game. In contrast, a more powerful Tormentor offers relatively little - getting 3 or 4 Imps is usually not going to change how I want to build my deck. Non-heirloom Tormentor's lack of strength is what makes it interesting - it can be viable to go for if you want the extra draw but it also isn't an obviously correct move.

This isn't really related to the card design aspect but I feel like I have to respond that Tormentor is, IMO, not a very weak $5. (I've interpreted "very weak" here to mean somewhere around Fool or below in power level). It's mediocre, but saying that you don't want to buy it early in the presence of a junker or a trasher isn't correct. If we're talking about Witch and Steward, I think it's reasonable to say it will be ignored. But with weaker junkers, like Jester or Sea Hag, this question is far less obvious. Same goes with weaker trashers, although not as much - however, there are a decent amount of trashers that can still be played while still getting an Imp gain, such as Exorcist and Loan. The attack is also sometimes very relevant - stacking Hexes really hurts in a way that few other attacks can. Your comment about Haggler here confuses me; Haggler's not particularly good at buying Lab variants most of the time because a) it needs to have a Lab variant present in the kingdom which is rare considering how few Lab variants there are in the game and b) many Lab variants cost $5 whereas Haggler is best at gaining >$4 costs.

edit: This all being said I like how Rack works as an Heirloom (a permanent but weak source of Villagers sounds like great gameplay), I just wish it went with a card that was less boosted by its presence.
« Last Edit: August 23, 2020, 08:26:28 pm by alion8me »
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segura

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Re: Weekly Design Contest Thread
« Reply #6830 on: August 24, 2020, 02:19:25 am »
0

Haggler is brilliant at getting Lab variants because your Gold or Province always comes with one. Somehow nobody is complaining about Haggler being overpowered though.
About getting junkers or trashers instead of Tormentor, I obviously meant trashers/junkers at $5.

The comparison with Cathedral, Goons and Stockpile is pretty weird. This is about Tormentor with Rack vs Tormentor without Rack. Neither of the two versions of Tormentor is as game-warping as the ones you mentioned.
So far the argument has boiled down to, well, that Tormentor is buffed and that this is boring because you will now always go for Tormentor. It is entirely related to power level, the first version is not strategically more deep than the second version.

I totally agree that that buff might be too much. But it is the most natural way to buff a weak card, just like your cut idea was a pretty natural way to nerf Governor.
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silverspawn

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Re: Weekly Design Contest Thread
« Reply #6831 on: August 24, 2020, 03:19:35 am »
0

Which interesting decision is taken away? Be concrete, what would you do with the Heirloom that you would not do otherwise (except getting Tormentor more often which is not about decisions but the power level of the card).

You draw a Tormentor in a mediocre hand with other non-terminal action card and have to decide whether to play those first or to ditch them and just play Tormentor. This is what I had in mind when I said it reduces decisions. I find myself ditching hands to get an Imp quite often.

With the heirloom, this decision is gone; you always play Tormentor first.

Somehow nobody is complaining about Haggler being overpowered though.

I'd be pretty inclined to complain about Haggler if it came up. I think Tormentor (without the Heirloom) is a much better design than Haggler.

lompeluiten

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Re: Weekly Design Contest Thread
« Reply #6832 on: August 24, 2020, 03:46:53 am »
0

Antique coin (used on horn of plenty) Treasure $0
$1 you may show your hand. If you show 3 different victory cards, trash it and gain a prize
Here is a card variant. Change it to be an heirloom of Fairgrounds. More flavorful and a bit of synergy

« Last Edit: August 24, 2020, 03:49:15 am by lompeluiten »
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lompeluiten

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Re: Weekly Design Contest Thread
« Reply #6833 on: August 24, 2020, 03:52:30 am »
0



Quote
Cursed Mask - $0
Treasure - Heirloom
$1
-
When scoring, this is worth -2%.

When you trash this, gain a Curse and two Coppers.

This just a goofy Heirloom for Masquerade. It emphasizes the hot potato characteristic of the card as you don't really want to be the one to bite the bullet and junk your own deck by trashing the Heirloom. I am guessing if there are really good trashers in the Kingdom like Chapel this won't really matter. I was thinking of giving it the Fortress characteristic of never being able to trash it. I would love to hear what others think of it.



Quote
Cursed Mask - $0
Treasure - Heirloom
$1
-
When scoring, this is worth -2%.

When you trash this, put it into your discard pile.

So, this is what it would look like if I go with the Fortress mechanic and it just can't be trashed. I think it is cleaner, but I do like the option to just trash the mask into a confetti of junk.
Shouldn't that card not also be a curse type?
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lompeluiten

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Re: Weekly Design Contest Thread
« Reply #6834 on: August 24, 2020, 03:54:06 am »
0

I've seen a number of heirlooms for Mine, but I already had this idea so here's another one...



Canary
Heirloom: Mine
$3 Treasure Heirloom
Quote
$1
-
When you trash this, you may replay an Action card you played this turn that's still in play.



Edit: it’s supposed to have the heirloom type, whoops

I should reduce the cost, so the mine doesn't get you a gold (and a silver) right away. For the rest: Nice card.
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gambit05

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Re: Weekly Design Contest Thread
« Reply #6835 on: August 24, 2020, 03:59:46 am »
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edit: Just read the entry above this and wow is this too similar for me to enter it, hopefully I'll have something else before the deadline then.

That's a crazy coincidence.

Funny that you designed it for a different card. It actually seems like a clever way to make Governor weaker. The cost is also neat.

I like the idea to have a Heirloom shared by different cards. For one card it is an advantage, and for another one it is rather a handicap. Since it is too rare that two unrelated cards are in the same Kingdom, this is better placed on split-piles (or Traveler lines, Exchange cards maybe). Worth to think about such a Fan-made card combination with a Heirloom (or Artifact).

Just a quick idea for existing, official cards:

A cheaper Sauna without the trashing ability:
Quote
Sauna
$2 - Action
+1 Card
+1 Action
You may play an Avanto from your hand.
Heirloom: Bucket

An unaltered Avanto:
Quote
Avanto
$5 – Action
+3 Cards
You may play a Sauna from your hand.

A shared Heirloom:
Quote
Bucket
$0 – Treasure
$1
When you play this, if you have Sauna, but not Avanto in play, you may trash a card from your hand.

Note: This is meant to demonstrate the general concept, and not to find the most interesting and most balanced way of these particular cards.
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segura

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Re: Weekly Design Contest Thread
« Reply #6836 on: August 24, 2020, 04:07:57 am »
0

I should reduce the cost, so the mine doesn't get you a gold (and a silver) right away. For the rest: Nice card.
Jumping from Canary to beyond Silver (there are sometimes $5 Treasures which you prefer over Gold) is half of the point of the card!
The Throne might sometimes very well be used for something else than Mine; e.g. if you still have an Action left, you might want to replay your Smithy instead of your Mine.
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Aquila

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Re: Weekly Design Contest Thread
« Reply #6837 on: August 24, 2020, 04:56:44 am »
+1

I've seen a number of heirlooms for Mine, but I already had this idea so here's another one...



Canary
Heirloom: Mine
$3 Treasure Heirloom
Quote
$1
-
When you trash this, you may replay an Action card you played this turn that's still in play.


Edit: it’s supposed to have the heirloom type, whoops
This, Treasurer and Watchtower make an infinite loop.



I'm also submitting a new entry, for Explorer:
Quote
Tricorn, Treasure Heirloom, $2 cost.
$1
When you play this, you may play an Action from your hand.
Quaint effect that helps engines, and lets Explorer access the effect of Capitalism. Its Treasures can still be immediately played, the Actions you play before it can help get a Province in hand, but it shouldn't by any means be centralising.
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lompeluiten

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Re: Weekly Design Contest Thread
« Reply #6838 on: August 24, 2020, 06:00:32 am »
0

I should reduce the cost, so the mine doesn't get you a gold (and a silver) right away. For the rest: Nice card.
Jumping from Canary to beyond Silver (there are sometimes $5 Treasures which you prefer over Gold) is half of the point of the card!
The Throne might sometimes very well be used for something else than Mine; e.g. if you still have an Action left, you might want to replay your Smithy instead of your Mine.

I know, But I think that can lead to an overpowered turn early, with to much variance if it will happen. If you are luck with a 2/5 spiltt and then again with the canarie, you are a little to far ahead. You can also get a gold if it just cost 2. (trash, gain a silver, trash again, gain a gold)
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segura

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Re: Weekly Design Contest Thread
« Reply #6839 on: August 24, 2020, 07:01:54 am »
0

I should reduce the cost, so the mine doesn't get you a gold (and a silver) right away. For the rest: Nice card.
Jumping from Canary to beyond Silver (there are sometimes $5 Treasures which you prefer over Gold) is half of the point of the card!
The Throne might sometimes very well be used for something else than Mine; e.g. if you still have an Action left, you might want to replay your Smithy instead of your Mine.

I know, But I think that can lead to an overpowered turn early, with to much variance if it will happen. If you are luck with a 2/5 spiltt and then again with the canarie, you are a little to far ahead. You can also get a gold if it just cost 2. (trash, gain a silver, trash again, gain a gold)
Again, that is the very point of the Heirloom: to make a very weak card decent and viable.
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segura

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Re: Weekly Design Contest Thread
« Reply #6840 on: August 24, 2020, 07:09:01 am »
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I should reduce the cost, so the mine doesn't get you a gold (and a silver) right away. For the rest: Nice card.
Jumping from Canary to beyond Silver (there are sometimes $5 Treasures which you prefer over Gold) is half of the point of the card!
The Throne might sometimes very well be used for something else than Mine; e.g. if you still have an Action left, you might want to replay your Smithy instead of your Mine.

I know, But I think that can lead to an overpowered turn early, with to much variance if it will happen. If you are luck with a 2/5 spiltt and then again with the canarie, you are a little to far ahead. You can also get a gold if it just cost 2. (trash, gain a silver, trash again, gain a gold)
Again, that is the very point of the Heirloom: to make a very weak card decent and viable.

If Alice opens 4-3 with Moneylender while Bob opens 5-2 with Mine and no decent $2 in the Kingdom, Alice is actually ahead economy-wise after the first shuffle (and that is not taking into account the risk that Mine and Canary might not match).
The only advantage of Mine-Canary is that you get a Gold.

Does not seem crazy or overpowered to me at all but rather sounds like, well, how Mine should have been power-wise from the get-go (I think that it would be too weak even at $4).
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lompeluiten

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Re: Weekly Design Contest Thread
« Reply #6841 on: August 24, 2020, 07:23:56 am »
0

I should reduce the cost, so the mine doesn't get you a gold (and a silver) right away. For the rest: Nice card.
Jumping from Canary to beyond Silver (there are sometimes $5 Treasures which you prefer over Gold) is half of the point of the card!
The Throne might sometimes very well be used for something else than Mine; e.g. if you still have an Action left, you might want to replay your Smithy instead of your Mine.

I know, But I think that can lead to an overpowered turn early, with to much variance if it will happen. If you are luck with a 2/5 spiltt and then again with the canarie, you are a little to far ahead. You can also get a gold if it just cost 2. (trash, gain a silver, trash again, gain a gold)
Again, that is the very point of the Heirloom: to make a very weak card decent and viable.

If Alice opens 4-3 with Moneylender while Bob opens 5-2 with Mine and no decent $2 in the Kingdom, Alice is actually ahead economy-wise after the first shuffle (and that is not taking into account the risk that Mine and Canary might not match).
The only advantage of Mine-Canary is that you get a Gold.

Does not seem crazy or overpowered to me at all but rather sounds like, well, how Mine should have been power-wise from the get-go (I think that it would be too weak even at $4).

It's a gold and a silver, and likely buying a Gold afterwards. So -1 copper, +1 gold vs. -2 copper, +2 gold, +1 silver. So you are ahead then, definitely if there was a good 2. Or you get just an silver, witch is pretty high variance.

Yes, power lever is always situational. I have very good games with the mine when high cycle cards are available, or as a one-of in a engine deck. I also agree that the mine would be better if it cost $4, as it in a vacuüm a little bit weaker then the money lender.
« Last Edit: August 24, 2020, 07:25:46 am by lompeluiten »
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Marpharos

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Re: Weekly Design Contest Thread
« Reply #6842 on: August 24, 2020, 01:44:37 pm »
0


Canary
Heirloom: Mine
$3 Treasure Heirloom
Quote
$1
-
When you trash this, you may replay an Action card you played this turn that's still in play.

This, Treasurer and Watchtower make an infinite loop.


Good spot, I've fixed it now so it is a Treasure - Heirloom and the possibility for infinite loops are reduced:



Quote
$1
-
When you trash this, you may set aside an Action card you played this turn that's still in play and replay it.

The wording feels a bit clunky but setting it aside stops the loop you found. Also, I've been on the fence about whether it costs $2 or $3 and I'm happy with it at $3. Mine isn't that great, and I'd say a similar level to opening Skulk or Silver/Wedding in terms of getting a Gold in your hand by t3. Also, you may not be trashing it with Mine, you may not want to replay Mine, and other $5s are generally better than Mine. There's got to be some incentive to get Mine I feel, it's so slow normally.

EDIT: I'm sticking with my original submission
« Last Edit: August 27, 2020, 04:49:42 am by Marpharos »
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LordBaphomet

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Re: Weekly Design Contest Thread
« Reply #6843 on: August 24, 2020, 02:05:22 pm »
0

Bale (for Harvest):
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Something_Smart

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Re: Weekly Design Contest Thread
« Reply #6844 on: August 24, 2020, 04:25:10 pm »
0

That updated version of Canary doesn't seem to fix the infinite loop. The Treasurer gets set aside and then returned to play when you play it again.
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segura

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Re: Weekly Design Contest Thread
« Reply #6845 on: August 24, 2020, 04:25:35 pm »
0

Bale (for Harvest):

Utterly lunatic with Copper trashing in multiplayer games (where you don’t get that many Actions anyway).
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Marpharos

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Re: Weekly Design Contest Thread
« Reply #6846 on: August 24, 2020, 04:31:34 pm »
0

That updated version of Canary doesn't seem to fix the infinite loop. The Treasurer gets set aside and then returned to play when you play it again.

Yup, done it again haven't I. I had it discard the card after being played but the text becomes tiny no one can read it. It should be replay it and set it aside in that order so that it's no longer in play I think
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Gubump

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Re: Weekly Design Contest Thread
« Reply #6847 on: August 24, 2020, 06:29:56 pm »
0

That updated version of Canary doesn't seem to fix the infinite loop. The Treasurer gets set aside and then returned to play when you play it again.

Yup, done it again haven't I. I had it discard the card after being played but the text becomes tiny no one can read it. It should be replay it and set it aside in that order so that it's no longer in play I think

That wouldn't work because it wouldn't get set aside until after you've finished playing it.

My suggestion would be to make it just say "once per turn, when you trash this..."
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Re: Weekly Design Contest Thread
« Reply #6848 on: August 24, 2020, 07:04:16 pm »
0

Bale (for Harvest):

Utterly lunatic with Copper trashing in multiplayer games (where you don’t get that many Actions anyway).
Is it worth too many VPs? Should I bring it back to 4/-1 instead of 5/-2?
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Xen3k

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Re: Weekly Design Contest Thread
« Reply #6849 on: August 24, 2020, 07:40:56 pm »
0



Quote
Cursed Mask - $0
Treasure - Heirloom
$1
-
When scoring, this is worth -2%.

When you trash this, gain a Curse and two Coppers.

This just a goofy Heirloom for Masquerade. It emphasizes the hot potato characteristic of the card as you don't really want to be the one to bite the bullet and junk your own deck by trashing the Heirloom. I am guessing if there are really good trashers in the Kingdom like Chapel this won't really matter. I was thinking of giving it the Fortress characteristic of never being able to trash it. I would love to hear what others think of it.



Quote
Cursed Mask - $0
Treasure - Heirloom
$1
-
When scoring, this is worth -2%.

When you trash this, put it into your discard pile.

So, this is what it would look like if I go with the Fortress mechanic and it just can't be trashed. I think it is cleaner, but I do like the option to just trash the mask into a confetti of junk.
Shouldn't that card not also be a curse type?

Is it required to be a Curse type of card to be worth negative Victory points, or is it more a matter of signaling to the players that the card is significant at end of game scoring? I honestly did not even think about making it have the Curse type.
« Last Edit: August 24, 2020, 07:43:00 pm by Xen3k »
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