Dominion Strategy Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Pages: 1 ... 270 271 [272] 273 274 ... 327  All

Author Topic: Weekly Design Contests #1 - #100  (Read 1547446 times)

0 Members and 8 Guests are viewing this topic.

faust

  • Board Moderator
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3377
  • Shuffle iT Username: faust
  • Respect: +5142
    • View Profile
Re: Weekly Design Contest Thread
« Reply #6775 on: August 21, 2020, 03:44:21 am »
+5

 

Quote
Ritual Sword - $2
Treasure/Heirloom

+$1
Trash an Action you have in play. If you did, +$2.
« Last Edit: August 21, 2020, 03:49:22 am by faust »
Logged
You say the ocean's rising, like I give a shit
You say the whole world's ending, honey it already did

Aquila

  • Minion
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 525
  • Respect: +764
    • View Profile
Re: Weekly Design Contest Thread
« Reply #6776 on: August 21, 2020, 07:22:52 am »
+1

@ chronostrike's Sextant and LibraryAdventurer's Scroll: they need to be Reactions. #nitpick


My entry, for Explorer:
Quote
Tricorn - Treasure Heirloom, $2 cost.
$1
When you play this, you may play an Action from your hand.
Simple, gives Explorer the main benefit of Capitalism it misses out on and perhaps lets you draw a Province before playing it. It shouldn't make a centralising combo?

Edit: (for previous entry) specified non-Attack pulls from discard only, thanks to Faust's post below. But there are other issues with this that are making me consider a different entry. One less Copper to start is a different kind of dread to add to Mountebank's presence. So it now feels like it either should be moved to an early economy card, or this Heirloom effect should be on a Shelter or kingdom card instead.

Edit 2: changed entry to Tricorn, see previous entry in following post.
« Last Edit: August 25, 2020, 06:26:05 am by Aquila »
Logged

faust

  • Board Moderator
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3377
  • Shuffle iT Username: faust
  • Respect: +5142
    • View Profile
Re: Weekly Design Contest Thread
« Reply #6777 on: August 21, 2020, 07:35:39 am »
+1

@ chronostrike's Sextant and LibraryAdventurer's Scroll: they need to be Reactions. #nitpick


My entry, for Mountebank:
Quote
Bottle - Treasure Heirloom, $3 cost.
$0
When you play this, look through your discard pile. Set aside either or a card from it, or this. After you draw your next hand, put the set aside card into your hand.
It's trying to be a nifty Heirloom that makes Mountebank less dreadful and more interesting. One can put a Curse from the discard pile into their next hand, or get generic control for if and when the deck gets bloated. There are some interactions with Prosperity in general I've seen as well, like increased hand size for Vault or Bishop, or pulling Platina and Counting Houses out of a big discard pile.
The $0 worth hurts initially, but with $1 there's the temptation to basically have a Key for the whole game, adding an extra copper to each hand by always setting the Bottle aside.
I'm not sure this plays as you intend, maing Mountebank less dreadful. Indeed, this allows you to pull the Mounty out of discard to play it a second time in the same shuffle, which arguably makes it even worse.
Logged
You say the ocean's rising, like I give a shit
You say the whole world's ending, honey it already did

LordBaphomet

  • Golem
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 178
  • Shuffle iT Username: LordBaphomet
  • Respect: +161
    • View Profile
Re: Weekly Design Contest Thread
« Reply #6778 on: August 21, 2020, 09:14:15 am »
0

My submission:


>Get my Copperfield trashed with thief
>Lose ~7 VP and quietly weep

Also btw 1VP per copper is i think way too much. Comparing to shepherd's pasture - Estates cost more, there are less of them, and they are a dead card in your deck.

I am sorry to see you laughing at my cards. Let me tell you what I think about it:

You say Estates are dead. I say they are less dead in combination with Shepherd than Coppers with Thief; I wouldn’t exactly call the Coppers lively. Let’s say, Thief steals Copperfield, so what? The Thief player has gained ~6VP at that very moment, but for what prize? To get the VP through the finish line, the Thief player has a lot of ballast to carry around. For each single VP they want to score via Copperfield (2 VP if they stole a Copperfield and can keep them), they have to keep a Copper in their deck.

You mentioned in your post #6771 that the Heirloom-extended cards presented so far would dominate the game. I haven’t looked at all entries, but I would say that Thief +Copperfield would still not dominate a lot of games. If there is good trashing, or nowadays even Exiling, and all Engine components are around, a player not going for Thief (or doing so late in the game to upset their Thief opponents), would weep if their opponent steals their Copperfield and Coppers along the way –for joy.

However, if things are a bit different, e.g. no good trashing, the presence of some Engine components under par, maybe a strong Gold gainer, or some powerful Treasures (including other Heirlooms) around, Thief+ actually can be considered to be gained and is probably in some games a must-buy. That is how I view the power of Thief +Copperfield: Excellent in some games, ok-ish in some others, weak in still others.

Either way, the presence of Thief+ plus in a Kingdom and of Copperfield in the player’s decks, forces the players to think about the strength of Thief +Copperfield. I thought that’s a good criterion to make a card interesting.
Sorry if it seems like I was laughing at your card, I was just making a joke to describe what I think it's problem is. I think it's a great idea, however should be worth less VP. This is worth more then a province, and it can be stolen by thief. This means that if someone buys theif, everyone else does; like a knights scramble but worse. However, you are right in the way that the power level of copperfield is different every game.
Logged
Hail Satan, hail yourself!

Fly-Eagles-Fly

  • Tactician
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 422
  • Respect: +190
    • View Profile
Re: Weekly Design Contest Thread
« Reply #6779 on: August 21, 2020, 09:15:53 am »
0


Sorry if it seems like I was laughing at your card, I was just making a joke to describe what I think it's problem is.
I think its problem is that it puts Thief on the board.
Logged

majiponi

  • Jester
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 823
  • Respect: +734
    • View Profile
Re: Weekly Design Contest Thread
« Reply #6780 on: August 21, 2020, 10:15:52 am »
0

Minecart Coaster for Mine
cost $3 - Treasure - Heirloom
$1
---
When you trash this, gain a Silver.
Logged

gambit05

  • Minion
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 584
  • Respect: +495
    • View Profile
Re: Weekly Design Contest Thread
« Reply #6781 on: August 21, 2020, 10:28:38 am »
0

Sorry if it seems like I was laughing at your card, I was just making a joke to describe what I think it's problem is. I think it's a great idea, however should be worth less VP. This is worth more then a province, and it can be stolen by thief. This means that if someone buys theif, everyone else does; like a knights scramble but worse. However, you are right in the way that the power level of copperfield is different every game.
Thanks for your opinion. I appreciate any feedback.
Please keep in mind that the VP worth a Province or more are spread over a lot of cards that are otherwise better junk. Just think about having a starting deck, where each Copper is a Mini-Harem ($1 / 1VP). Would you always keep them in your deck?

Boards that allow rapid trashing of the Coppers will largely ignore Thief+. If a player decides to go for Thief+ and the VP-Coppers, they do it at the cost of having a junk deck. This will be sometimes a valuable option, but other times not. I am confident that on many boards, if someone buys a Thief+, the opponents can still ignore it, even when the Thief+ player is able to steal all the Copperfields.


I think its problem is that it puts Thief on the board.
Could you please tell me what the problem with Thief is?
Logged

LordBaphomet

  • Golem
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 178
  • Shuffle iT Username: LordBaphomet
  • Respect: +161
    • View Profile
Re: Weekly Design Contest Thread
« Reply #6782 on: August 21, 2020, 10:39:38 am »
0

Sorry if it seems like I was laughing at your card, I was just making a joke to describe what I think it's problem is. I think it's a great idea, however should be worth less VP. This is worth more then a province, and it can be stolen by thief. This means that if someone buys theif, everyone else does; like a knights scramble but worse. However, you are right in the way that the power level of copperfield is different every game.
Thanks for your opinion. I appreciate any feedback.
Please keep in mind that the VP worth a Province or more are spread over a lot of cards that are otherwise better junk. Just think about having a starting deck, where each Copper is a Mini-Harem ($1 / 1VP). Would you always keep them in your deck?

Boards that allow rapid trashing of the Coppers will largely ignore Thief+. If a player decides to go for Thief+ and the VP-Coppers, they do it at the cost of having a junk deck. This will be sometimes a valuable option, but other times not. I am confident that on many boards, if someone buys a Thief+, the opponents can still ignore it, even when the Thief+ player is able to steal all the Copperfields.


I think its problem is that it puts Thief on the board.
Could you please tell me what the problem with Thief is?
The problem with copperfield is it is concentrated in one card, stealable by thief. This is a ~14-point swing, which can easily decide games. Thief sucks because:
1) It doesn't produce resources. Attacks should also produce resources (+2$ for militia, +2 Cards for witch, etc)
2) It trashes other's copper's, which helps them
3) It has been successfully re-implemented by noble brigand and by bandit (which replaced theif in the base second edition), so there is zero reason to play with theif when other cards do the same thing but better
Logged
Hail Satan, hail yourself!

JimJammer

  • Ambassador
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 31
  • Respect: +3
    • View Profile
Re: Weekly Design Contest Thread
« Reply #6783 on: August 21, 2020, 10:41:43 am »
0



I messed up the wording, should be "When you play this, if you have already trashed a card this turn, you may trash a card from your hand"
Logged

gambit05

  • Minion
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 584
  • Respect: +495
    • View Profile
Re: Weekly Design Contest Thread
« Reply #6784 on: August 21, 2020, 11:40:06 am »
0

Quote
The problem with copperfield is it is concentrated in one card, stealable by thief. This is a ~14-point swing, which can easily decide games.
The VPs are not tagged to Copperfield, but to the Coppers. Without Coppers, Copperfield is worth nothing. Due to that, the VPs are attached to a lot of junk cards. You can have such a huge swing only when you keep all the Coppers in your deck; so the penalty is huge. And I am not talking about the boards, where a lot of Coppers (or even the Copperfields) are trashed or Exiled, or whatever.

Quote
Thief sucks because:1) It doesn't produce resources. Attacks should also produce resources (+2$ for militia, +2 Cards for witch, etc).
Thief produces Money by stealing it from others; Thief+ potentially produces VPs. If a given board doesn’t support Thief+, then it should not be bought.
 
Quote
2) It trashes other's copper's, which helps them
Whether stealing Coppers with Thief+ is good for the opponents or not is not trivial.

Quote
3) It has been successfully re-implemented by noble brigand and by bandit (which replaced theif in the base second edition), so there is zero reason to play with theif when other cards do the same thing but better.
Thief+ clearly does different things.
The whole point of Thief + Copperfield was to address all those problems. I wanted to design a Thief that can be useful and interesting on certain boards.
Maybe I miss something fundamentally, but so far none of the criticisms could convince me.
Logged

LordBaphomet

  • Golem
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 178
  • Shuffle iT Username: LordBaphomet
  • Respect: +161
    • View Profile
Re: Weekly Design Contest Thread
« Reply #6785 on: August 21, 2020, 01:28:40 pm »
0

Quote
The problem with copperfield is it is concentrated in one card, stealable by thief. This is a ~14-point swing, which can easily decide games.
The VPs are not tagged to Copperfield, but to the Coppers. Without Coppers, Copperfield is worth nothing. Due to that, the VPs are attached to a lot of junk cards. You can have such a huge swing only when you keep all the Coppers in your deck; so the penalty is huge. And I am not talking about the boards, where a lot of Coppers (or even the Copperfields) are trashed or Exiled, or whatever.

Quote
Thief sucks because:1) It doesn't produce resources. Attacks should also produce resources (+2$ for militia, +2 Cards for witch, etc).
Thief produces Money by stealing it from others; Thief+ potentially produces VPs. If a given board doesn’t support Thief+, then it should not be bought.
 
Quote
2) It trashes other's copper's, which helps them
Whether stealing Coppers with Thief+ is good for the opponents or not is not trivial.

Quote
3) It has been successfully re-implemented by noble brigand and by bandit (which replaced theif in the base second edition), so there is zero reason to play with theif when other cards do the same thing but better.
Thief+ clearly does different things.
The whole point of Thief + Copperfield was to address all those problems. I wanted to design a Thief that can be useful and interesting on certain boards.
Maybe I miss something fundamentally, but so far none of the criticisms could convince me.
Listen, almost the entire community agrees thief is a bad card, and other then that there's nothing I can say to convince you (and yes, outside of cases like counting house or gardens you do always want to get rid of coppers and theif helps opponents do that).
As for my first point, let me run a scenario for you. Assume we both have 7 coppers. You play thief and reveal my copperfield and steal it. You now have an extra 7 points (new copperfield) and I lost seven points (my copperfeild is gone), so that's a 14-point swing in your favor which can easily decide games. All because you got lucky with thief. If you really want to make an heirloom for thief, I suggest instead making one for noble brigand or bandit.
Logged
Hail Satan, hail yourself!

gambit05

  • Minion
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 584
  • Respect: +495
    • View Profile
Re: Weekly Design Contest Thread
« Reply #6786 on: August 21, 2020, 02:13:39 pm »
0

Quote
The problem with copperfield is it is concentrated in one card, stealable by thief. This is a ~14-point swing, which can easily decide games.
The VPs are not tagged to Copperfield, but to the Coppers. Without Coppers, Copperfield is worth nothing. Due to that, the VPs are attached to a lot of junk cards. You can have such a huge swing only when you keep all the Coppers in your deck; so the penalty is huge. And I am not talking about the boards, where a lot of Coppers (or even the Copperfields) are trashed or Exiled, or whatever.

Quote
Thief sucks because:1) It doesn't produce resources. Attacks should also produce resources (+2$ for militia, +2 Cards for witch, etc).
Thief produces Money by stealing it from others; Thief+ potentially produces VPs. If a given board doesn’t support Thief+, then it should not be bought.
 
Quote
2) It trashes other's copper's, which helps them
Whether stealing Coppers with Thief+ is good for the opponents or not is not trivial.

Quote
3) It has been successfully re-implemented by noble brigand and by bandit (which replaced theif in the base second edition), so there is zero reason to play with theif when other cards do the same thing but better.
Thief+ clearly does different things.
The whole point of Thief + Copperfield was to address all those problems. I wanted to design a Thief that can be useful and interesting on certain boards.
Maybe I miss something fundamentally, but so far none of the criticisms could convince me.


Quote
Listen, almost the entire community agrees thief is a bad card, and other then that there's nothing I can say to convince you (and yes, outside of cases like counting house or gardens you do always want to get rid of coppers and theif helps opponents do that).

You are talking about the official Thief here. I never did that.

Quote
As for my first point, let me run a scenario for you. Assume we both have 7 coppers. You play thief and reveal my copperfield and steal it. You now have an extra 7 points (new copperfield) and I lost seven points (my copperfeild is gone), so that's a 14-point swing in your favor which can easily decide games. All because you got lucky with thief.

This scenario is the extreme case (6 Coppers by the way, one is replaced by Copperfield). It can happen of course, but often enough it will not. I don’t want to repeat all those other possibilities again; please have a look at my previous posts. Anyway, back to your scenario (the extreme case). I now have 2 Copperfields and a bunch of Coppers. If I want to score with those, I have to keep them for the rest of the game. You, who have lost your Copperfield, have the option to steal it back, or more interesting, ignore all that junk, get rid of your Coppers (my Thief+ may even help), buy nice Engine pieces and beat me, because you have a thin deck and I have all the ballast.

I have the feeling that you don’t understand Thief + Copperfield. On one hand you say it is too weak, on the other hand you say it is too strong. In the extreme case it could be swingy, but the VP swing is connected to a massive amount of junk. The real question is rather, how often it would happen that the Copperfield Thief with all the junk makes the better deal.

It would be nice if someone else could give their opinion about this.
Logged

spineflu

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1365
  • Shuffle iT Username: spineflu
  • Head Empty, Heart Worms, Can't Lose
  • Respect: +1349
    • View Profile
    • my instagram, where i paint things
Re: Weekly Design Contest Thread
« Reply #6787 on: August 21, 2020, 02:16:44 pm »
+1


Quote
Booty • $0 • Treasure - Heirloom
Choose one: $1 or add a Coin token to your Pirate Ship mat.
This does have a similar issue to thief's stealing copperfields (that is, your pirate ships trash my booty) but Booty is just a little boost, rather than game-definingly essential, and i don't think i've ever seen a board where pship was the only viable money option.

Also: just what pirate ship needs, more text.
« Last Edit: August 21, 2020, 02:18:46 pm by spineflu »
Logged

LordBaphomet

  • Golem
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 178
  • Shuffle iT Username: LordBaphomet
  • Respect: +161
    • View Profile
Re: Weekly Design Contest Thread
« Reply #6788 on: August 21, 2020, 02:42:05 pm »
0

Quote
The problem with copperfield is it is concentrated in one card, stealable by thief. This is a ~14-point swing, which can easily decide games.
The VPs are not tagged to Copperfield, but to the Coppers. Without Coppers, Copperfield is worth nothing. Due to that, the VPs are attached to a lot of junk cards. You can have such a huge swing only when you keep all the Coppers in your deck; so the penalty is huge. And I am not talking about the boards, where a lot of Coppers (or even the Copperfields) are trashed or Exiled, or whatever.

Quote
Thief sucks because:1) It doesn't produce resources. Attacks should also produce resources (+2$ for militia, +2 Cards for witch, etc).
Thief produces Money by stealing it from others; Thief+ potentially produces VPs. If a given board doesn’t support Thief+, then it should not be bought.
 
Quote
2) It trashes other's copper's, which helps them
Whether stealing Coppers with Thief+ is good for the opponents or not is not trivial.

Quote
3) It has been successfully re-implemented by noble brigand and by bandit (which replaced theif in the base second edition), so there is zero reason to play with theif when other cards do the same thing but better.
Thief+ clearly does different things.
The whole point of Thief + Copperfield was to address all those problems. I wanted to design a Thief that can be useful and interesting on certain boards.
Maybe I miss something fundamentally, but so far none of the criticisms could convince me.


Quote
Listen, almost the entire community agrees thief is a bad card, and other then that there's nothing I can say to convince you (and yes, outside of cases like counting house or gardens you do always want to get rid of coppers and theif helps opponents do that).

You are talking about the official Thief here. I never did that.

Quote
As for my first point, let me run a scenario for you. Assume we both have 7 coppers. You play thief and reveal my copperfield and steal it. You now have an extra 7 points (new copperfield) and I lost seven points (my copperfeild is gone), so that's a 14-point swing in your favor which can easily decide games. All because you got lucky with thief.

This scenario is the extreme case (6 Coppers by the way, one is replaced by Copperfield). It can happen of course, but often enough it will not. I don’t want to repeat all those other possibilities again; please have a look at my previous posts. Anyway, back to your scenario (the extreme case). I now have 2 Copperfields and a bunch of Coppers. If I want to score with those, I have to keep them for the rest of the game. You, who have lost your Copperfield, have the option to steal it back, or more interesting, ignore all that junk, get rid of your Coppers (my Thief+ may even help), buy nice Engine pieces and beat me, because you have a thin deck and I have all the ballast.

I have the feeling that you don’t understand Thief + Copperfield. On one hand you say it is too weak, on the other hand you say it is too strong. In the extreme case it could be swingy, but the VP swing is connected to a massive amount of junk. The real question is rather, how often it would happen that the Copperfield Thief with all the junk makes the better deal.

It would be nice if someone else could give their opinion about this.

I amnot contradicting myself. Thief is really weak. Copperfield is way too strong. It turns the game into a hot potato match of who can steal everyones copperfeilds.
Logged
Hail Satan, hail yourself!

gambit05

  • Minion
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 584
  • Respect: +495
    • View Profile
Re: Weekly Design Contest Thread
« Reply #6789 on: August 21, 2020, 02:53:43 pm »
0



I amnot contradicting myself. Thief is really weak. Copperfield is way too strong. It turns the game into a hot potato match of who can steal everyones copperfeilds.
My last try to argue with you about this. Imagine the following scenario: All Engine pieces around in sufficient quality, including a decent trasher. You start with 2 Copperfields, I have none. How often do you think you are you winning when you go for those extra-VPs?
Logged

LordBaphomet

  • Golem
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 178
  • Shuffle iT Username: LordBaphomet
  • Respect: +161
    • View Profile
Re: Weekly Design Contest Thread
« Reply #6790 on: August 21, 2020, 02:54:36 pm »
+1

Update to Bale - removed the +buy from the discard clause since it doesn't really need it
/Harvest           - was worth way too much VP. Now has a cap of 4 and lightly punishes big money, and also decks which use 1 card like lab, governor, etc.

Edit - Should I raise the VP to discourage trashing the heriloom?
« Last Edit: August 21, 2020, 02:58:08 pm by LordBaphomet »
Logged
Hail Satan, hail yourself!

mail-mi

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1298
  • Shuffle iT Username: mail-mi
  • Come play some Forum Mafia with us!
  • Respect: +1364
    • View Profile
Re: Weekly Design Contest Thread
« Reply #6791 on: August 21, 2020, 03:02:07 pm »
+2



I amnot contradicting myself. Thief is really weak. Copperfield is way too strong. It turns the game into a hot potato match of who can steal everyones copperfeilds.
My last try to argue with you about this. Imagine the following scenario: All Engine pieces around in sufficient quality, including a decent trasher. You start with 2 Copperfields, I have none. How often do you think you are you winning when you go for those extra-VPs?

I'll come in to offer a second opinion: Imagine a game without Copper trashing. Then, your thief luckily stealing my copperfield is at 12-point swing in your favor. Even if I get 5 provinces, you can still tie me by only having to buy 3 provinces. That's too big of a swing to be down to your good luck with your Thief. If this was a rare scenario, it wouldn't be bad, but there are probably as many games without good copper trashing as there are with good copper trashing.
Logged
I currently imagine mail-mi wearing a dark trenchcoat and a bowler hat, hunched over a bit, toothpick in his mouth, holding a gun in his pocket.  One bead of sweat trickling down his nose.

'And what is it that ye shall hope for? Behold I say unto you that ye shall have hope through the atonement of Christ and the power of his resurrection, to be raised unto life eternal, and this because of your faith in him according to the promise." - Moroni 7:41, the Book of Mormon

Titandrake

  • Mountebank
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2210
  • Respect: +2854
    • View Profile
Re: Weekly Design Contest Thread
« Reply #6792 on: August 21, 2020, 03:23:45 pm »
+2

Heirloom for Counting House

Ledger
Cost $2: Treasure - Heirloom
$1
You may trash this, to gain 3 Coppers to your hand.

This guarantees you can open Counting House if you want to. You can also treat it as a one-time +$3 bonus in the late game, or a way to open an expensive card if you're very desperate (Forge? Less debt on Donate?)

I considered having it gain 4 Copper to take you directly to 10 Copper for Fountain, but decided that wasn't necessary, might be a bit too much money.
Logged
I have a blog! It's called Sorta Insightful. Check it out?

gambit05

  • Minion
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 584
  • Respect: +495
    • View Profile
Re: Weekly Design Contest Thread
« Reply #6793 on: August 21, 2020, 03:29:57 pm »
0



I amnot contradicting myself. Thief is really weak. Copperfield is way too strong. It turns the game into a hot potato match of who can steal everyones copperfeilds.
My last try to argue with you about this. Imagine the following scenario: All Engine pieces around in sufficient quality, including a decent trasher. You start with 2 Copperfields, I have none. How often do you think you are you winning when you go for those extra-VPs?

I'll come in to offer a second opinion: Imagine a game without Copper trashing. Then, your thief luckily stealing my copperfield is at 12-point swing in your favor. Even if I get 5 provinces, you can still tie me by only having to buy 3 provinces. That's too big of a swing to be down to your good luck with your Thief. If this was a rare scenario, it wouldn't be bad, but there are probably as many games without good copper trashing as there are with good copper trashing.

Thank you very much for your input, it is much appreciated.

Copper trashing doesn't have to be good, if you want to avoid the "Copperfield battle". I just very quickly counted the number of cards that allow trashing Coppers (or Copperfields) on the Wiki page. I counted 59. I likely missed some, or counted some twice. On the other hand, I didn't include Landscape cards and I didn't include other cards that can get rid of Coppers or Copperfield (e.g. Island, Miser, Exiling cards) or hide them (e.g. Crypt, Haven and the like). Anyway, even only 59 would mean that 82% of Kingdoms have a possibility to avoid this scenario, and it is probably higher. Then, in the other cases, and on top of that, assuming that one player is really lucky, and even ignoring the fact that the other player can still get Copperfields back, the one with the Copperfields has two more junk cards in their deck. So even then, it is not a clear cut. Anyway, a valuable point one can think about, and to be sure about the numbers I threw in here, I have to look to the trashing cards more carefully. Thanks.

Edit: I forgot to mention: Before I posted Thief with Copperfield as Heirloom, I created 20 Kingdoms with a set generator (Thief always being in the Kingdom of course; and with the starting Copperfield in mind). On my level of understanding Dominion boards I found that 5 of them were clearly in favour of going for Thief+, 5 were clearly not, and for the remaining 10, it was difficult to decide. In my opinion clearly what you want from a card (design wise).
« Last Edit: August 21, 2020, 03:53:48 pm by gambit05 »
Logged

grep

  • Apprentice
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 297
  • Respect: +449
    • View Profile
Re: Weekly Design Contest Thread
« Reply #6794 on: August 21, 2020, 03:49:15 pm »
+3

Quote

Well
$2 - Treasure - Heirloom
$1
Look at the top card of your deck. If it's a Treasure card, you may play it.

A mini-Venture as a companion for Courtyard.
Logged

mail-mi

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1298
  • Shuffle iT Username: mail-mi
  • Come play some Forum Mafia with us!
  • Respect: +1364
    • View Profile
Re: Weekly Design Contest Thread
« Reply #6795 on: August 21, 2020, 03:50:56 pm »
+1



I amnot contradicting myself. Thief is really weak. Copperfield is way too strong. It turns the game into a hot potato match of who can steal everyones copperfeilds.
My last try to argue with you about this. Imagine the following scenario: All Engine pieces around in sufficient quality, including a decent trasher. You start with 2 Copperfields, I have none. How often do you think you are you winning when you go for those extra-VPs?

I'll come in to offer a second opinion: Imagine a game without Copper trashing. Then, your thief luckily stealing my copperfield is at 12-point swing in your favor. Even if I get 5 provinces, you can still tie me by only having to buy 3 provinces. That's too big of a swing to be down to your good luck with your Thief. If this was a rare scenario, it wouldn't be bad, but there are probably as many games without good copper trashing as there are with good copper trashing.

Thank you very much for your input, it is much appreciated.

Copper trashing doesn't have to be good, if you want to avoid the "Copperfield battle". I just very quickly counted the number of cards that allow trashing Coppers (or Copperfields) on the Wiki page. I counted 59. I likely missed some, or counted some twice. On the other hand, I didn't include Landscape cards and I didn't include other cards that can get rid of Coppers or Copperfield (e.g. Island, Miser, Exiling cards) or hide them (e.g. Crypt, Haven and the like). Anyway, even only 59 would mean that 82% of Kingdoms have a possibility to avoid this scenario, and it is probably higher. Then, in the other cases, and on top of that, assuming that one player is really lucky, and even ignoring the fact that the other player can still get Copperfields back, the one with the Copperfields has two more junk cards in their deck. So even then, it is not a clear cut. Anyway, a valuable point one can think about, and to be sure about the numbers I threw in here, I have to look to the trashing cards more carefully. Thanks.

Are you counting Remodel variants? Because unless there are good $2 actions, it's usually not worth trashing coppers into estates with those. That may put a dent in your 82% figure.
Logged
I currently imagine mail-mi wearing a dark trenchcoat and a bowler hat, hunched over a bit, toothpick in his mouth, holding a gun in his pocket.  One bead of sweat trickling down his nose.

'And what is it that ye shall hope for? Behold I say unto you that ye shall have hope through the atonement of Christ and the power of his resurrection, to be raised unto life eternal, and this because of your faith in him according to the promise." - Moroni 7:41, the Book of Mormon

gambit05

  • Minion
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 584
  • Respect: +495
    • View Profile
Re: Weekly Design Contest Thread
« Reply #6796 on: August 21, 2020, 04:00:35 pm »
0



I amnot contradicting myself. Thief is really weak. Copperfield is way too strong. It turns the game into a hot potato match of who can steal everyones copperfeilds.
My last try to argue with you about this. Imagine the following scenario: All Engine pieces around in sufficient quality, including a decent trasher. You start with 2 Copperfields, I have none. How often do you think you are you winning when you go for those extra-VPs?

I'll come in to offer a second opinion: Imagine a game without Copper trashing. Then, your thief luckily stealing my copperfield is at 12-point swing in your favor. Even if I get 5 provinces, you can still tie me by only having to buy 3 provinces. That's too big of a swing to be down to your good luck with your Thief. If this was a rare scenario, it wouldn't be bad, but there are probably as many games without good copper trashing as there are with good copper trashing.

Thank you very much for your input, it is much appreciated.

Copper trashing doesn't have to be good, if you want to avoid the "Copperfield battle". I just very quickly counted the number of cards that allow trashing Coppers (or Copperfields) on the Wiki page. I counted 59. I likely missed some, or counted some twice. On the other hand, I didn't include Landscape cards and I didn't include other cards that can get rid of Coppers or Copperfield (e.g. Island, Miser, Exiling cards) or hide them (e.g. Crypt, Haven and the like). Anyway, even only 59 would mean that 82% of Kingdoms have a possibility to avoid this scenario, and it is probably higher. Then, in the other cases, and on top of that, assuming that one player is really lucky, and even ignoring the fact that the other player can still get Copperfields back, the one with the Copperfields has two more junk cards in their deck. So even then, it is not a clear cut. Anyway, a valuable point one can think about, and to be sure about the numbers I threw in here, I have to look to the trashing cards more carefully. Thanks.

Are you counting Remodel variants? Because unless there are good $2 actions, it's usually not worth trashing coppers into estates with those. That may put a dent in your 82% figure.

Yes, I included Remodel variants, and I am aware of this. I was mostly thinking about getting rid of Copperfield (rather than Coppers) if one player is really scared about losing it and while I replied to your previous post, I already realised that this potential problem could be simply avoided by increasing the cost of Copperfield to $2.
Logged

silverspawn

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5301
  • Shuffle iT Username: sty.silver
  • Respect: +3189
    • View Profile
Re: Weekly Design Contest Thread
« Reply #6797 on: August 21, 2020, 04:49:01 pm »
+2

I think the problem with Thief and Copperfield isn't powerlevel but swinginess.

Since copperfield is strong, I expect that the card will just be extremely frustrating since you can lose 10 VP if it gets stolen. Not fun.

Rewarding Thief for hitting Coppers is a good idea. Being able to steal the entire payload is a terrible idea. The fix seems obvious: make Copperfield unaffected by Thief. (How to do this, I'm not sure, but there are several ways.)

gambit05

  • Minion
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 584
  • Respect: +495
    • View Profile
Re: Weekly Design Contest Thread
« Reply #6798 on: August 21, 2020, 05:28:06 pm »
0

I think the problem with Thief and Copperfield isn't powerlevel but swinginess.

Since copperfield is strong, I expect that the card will just be extremely frustrating since you can lose 10 VP if it gets stolen. Not fun.

Rewarding Thief for hitting Coppers is a good idea. Being able to steal the entire payload is a terrible idea. The fix seems obvious: make Copperfield unaffected by Thief. (How to do this, I'm not sure, but there are several ways.)

Another helpful comment, thanks. I just got a bit angry about arguing about using Thief is bad, because well... Thief is bad, missing the point that I offer a Thief+ that provides something that may actually make it interesting and worth to buy. The comparison to Bandit and Noble Brigand doesn't help either.

The crucial point as far as I can see is: If someone steels a Copperfield, they have to deal with a lot of Coppers in their deck if they want to score. Are the opponents automatically doomed?
 
« Last Edit: August 22, 2020, 01:40:04 am by gambit05 »
Logged

NoMoreFun

  • Mountebank
  • *****
  • Online Online
  • Posts: 2006
  • Respect: +2109
    • View Profile
Re: Weekly Design Contest Thread
« Reply #6799 on: August 21, 2020, 06:43:26 pm »
+5





Rack
Treasure/Heirloom - $3
Worth $1
+1 Villager

Playing Tormentor first to gain Imps is really rare, so Rack gives you villagers to make it possible to do that more as the game goes on.

« Last Edit: August 21, 2020, 06:57:49 pm by NoMoreFun »
Logged
Pages: 1 ... 270 271 [272] 273 274 ... 327  All
 

Page created in 1.825 seconds with 21 queries.