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Author Topic: Weekly Design Contest Thread  (Read 124322 times)

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spineflu

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Re: Weekly Design Contest Thread
« Reply #3525 on: September 15, 2019, 09:44:33 am »
+1

I'm changing my entry, I'm not feeling awesome about Witching Hour anymore. Too much finicky stuff going on in it.

.

Take ten turns in a row. You're gonna make your deck terrible, give your opponents a bunch of free VP, and have a mountain of debt but whatever, do it.

Just a side note: this with like, Watchtower, or Trader - should I phrase this instead to be "reveal the top card of your deck; if it's a Curse, (extra turn w -1 card token)" to be more Watchtower/Trader-proof?

edit edit: looked up how Soothsayer handles it; changed phrasing accordingly. You gotta take the Curse for your extra turn.

Quote
Delegate • <7> • Event
Each other player gets +2%. Gain a Curse to the top of your deck. Reveal the top card of your deck; if it's a Curse, take your –1 Card Token and an additional turn after this one.

Pretty much any engine deck that can consistently go off on an Outpost turn can use this to take all the turns.

The extra turn only happens if the top card of your deck is a curse, so you’d have to have some top deck manipulation too. However that could be easily accomplished with Courtyard, Sentry, etc., so I think it would be better to make the extra turn conditional on gaining a curse instead of checking the top of your deck.

It makes you gain a Curse to the top of your deck so you only need the deck manipulation if your consistent engine deck somehow can't win after 11 turns in a row.

waking up hungover in the morning to find out you were drunkposting on the dominion fan cards forum is a helluva beast.
uuh this c.l.t. has Some Issues; i'm gonna think on it today and change it or replace it on Monday.

Updated at http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=18987.msg810942#msg810942
« Last Edit: September 17, 2019, 09:59:50 am by spineflu »
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Commodore Chuckles

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Re: Weekly Design Contest Thread
« Reply #3526 on: September 15, 2019, 02:18:42 pm »
+2

Prototype
Action/Duration - $4
Gain a card costing up to $4
If this is the first time you played a Prototype this turn, and the previous turn wasn't yours, you may set that card aside on this to take an extra turn after this one, drawing only that card for your next hand.

Minor wording gripe: setting a card aside and then putting it in your hand isn't "drawing" it.
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Gubump

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Re: Contest #44: Extra turns
« Reply #3527 on: September 15, 2019, 02:36:03 pm »
+2



Like Outpost, but you have to set aside cards from your current hand to make your extra turn's hand. The +2 Cards is there to make it compare more favorably to Outpost.

Version History:
v1.0: Original version.
v1.1: Made the +2 Cards unconditional.
« Last Edit: September 15, 2019, 06:59:46 pm by Gubump »
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NoMoreFun

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Re: Weekly Design Contest Thread
« Reply #3528 on: September 15, 2019, 05:20:23 pm »
0

Prototype
Action/Duration - $4
Gain a card costing up to $4
If this is the first time you played a Prototype this turn, and the previous turn wasn't yours, you may set that card aside on this to take an extra turn after this one, drawing only that card for your next hand.

Minor wording gripe: setting a card aside and then putting it in your hand isn't "drawing" it.

It was a way to save space compared to "draw zero cards and put the set aside card in your hand at the start of your next turn".
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NoMoreFun

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Re: Contest #44: Extra turns
« Reply #3529 on: September 15, 2019, 05:26:34 pm »
0



Like Outpost, but you have to set aside cards from your current hand to make your extra turn's hand. The conditional +2 Cards is there to make it compare more favorably to Outpost.

I don't think this card would be too overpowered if the +2 Cards was unconditional.
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King Leon

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Re: Weekly Design Contest Thread
« Reply #3530 on: September 15, 2019, 06:08:24 pm »
+1



Memorial
Type: Victory
Cost: $2

2 VP
---
If this is the first time, you bought a Memorial this turn, take an extra turn after this one, during which you can't buy Victory cards.
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Gubump

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Re: Weekly Design Contest Thread
« Reply #3531 on: September 15, 2019, 07:01:19 pm »
+2

Prototype
Action/Duration - $4
Gain a card costing up to $4
If this is the first time you played a Prototype this turn, and the previous turn wasn't yours, you may set that card aside on this to take an extra turn after this one, drawing only that card for your next hand.

Minor wording gripe: setting a card aside and then putting it in your hand isn't "drawing" it.

It was a way to save space compared to "draw zero cards and put the set aside card in your hand at the start of your next turn".

"If this is the first time you played a Prototype this turn, and the previous turn wasn't yours, you may set aside the gained card to take an extra turn after this one, and put the set aside card into your hand instead of drawing your next hand."
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spineflu

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Re: Weekly Design Contest Thread
« Reply #3532 on: September 16, 2019, 10:32:08 am »
0

Alright so here's the sober Delegate-replacement.


Quote
Heir • <4> • Event
Once per turn: Gain a Curse. Choose one: take your –1 Coin token and a Turn token, then each other player gets +2%; or take your –1 Card token, return two Turn tokens, and take an additional turn after this one.
-
Setup: include ten additional Curses in the Supply

I wanted something that would allow you to take an arbitrary number of turns in a row, provided you could deal with the drawbacks associated.
This will let you do that; it will also give you 3 curses for each extra turn you get, and your opponents 4vp tokens, and you'll have to set it up over the course of several turns.

Clarifications:
The "ten additional curses" setup is so this doesn't get in the way of a traditional Curser.
Turn tokens are an arbitrary collectable token (a la coin/debt/embargo tokens) and not component limited. If you're using pennies for debt tokens, use nickels for turn tokens.

Updated @ http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=18987.msg810942#msg810942
« Last Edit: September 17, 2019, 09:59:34 am by spineflu »
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Fragasnap

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Re: Weekly Design Contest Thread
« Reply #3533 on: September 17, 2019, 08:55:05 am »
0

Coffee Roast
Types: Treasure
Cost: $4P
$2, +2 Cards.
When you buy this, you may trash a Potion you have in play. If you do, take an extra turn after this one.
Excellent use of potions! I think the +2 cards in a $ phase is an interesting concept that doesn't belong on this card. I'd say this can be stronger like $3 maybe $3 +1buy or $2 +1 buy. The +1 buy would make the concept make sense as you have to spend buys for the potion you just lost.
I believe I disagree with this general design philosophy you are displaying (and throughout your judging post). It seems to me you are looking at cards that have problems baked into them and considering them poorly designed for that reason: I think cards that have inherent problems are the best designed cards because you have to look elsewhere in the Kingdom to solve them.
"+2 Cards, +$2" is too strong for $5 and too boring for $6.  Coffee Roast moves the effect sideways by costing $4P with the extra turn stuff and moving it to a Treasure where the +Cards become awkward.  It hopefully pulls down the earlier Coffee Roast turns as a pseudo-stop-card, but I'm not sure it will do that.  Later Coffee Roast turns will be great because of its self-synergy.
If you really want to, you can view the extra turn as the +Buy after which you are asking, but you want to manage much more than that on your Coffee Roast turn.

Also, theme.  It's caffeine, so you get to take another turn.  The card draw represents productivity, but it is of an unusual and undirected sort that you might not be able to leverage very well as society adapts to the common consumption of caffeine.

it takes some setup, but Trader and Graverobber would let you infinite* turns with this.
* i mean, until the silvers run out and then some
Coffee Roast can go infinite with two parts:
1) Some way to keep the Coffee Roasts from running out (being Trader (notably, running out of Silvers doesn't matter: Trader will just stop giving you Silvers) or Ambassador + an unconditional blocker (like Lighthouse or Guardian))
2) Some way to get the Potions out of the trash (being Graverobber, Rogue, or Treasurer)
Having it trigger on gain would make it infinite with Treasurer without needing anything else.
There are probably some complicated rewordings that could try to avoid literally infinite turns, but really though, Coffee Roast looks most to be a variation on a megaturn.  You only have to ensure that your extra turns include gaining a Potion and buying another Coffee Roast until you win.  Coffee Roast is not itself super helpful for managing it, though.  In the rare event that this infinite turn can occur, you should win.  The only instance in which the turn continuing forever even does anything notable is with Bishop (with the already granted trash rescue), Monument, Wild Hunt, Goons+Trader (and this is when we are already talking about a 3+ card combo).
Whenever you can't megaturn with it, turning a Potion into a ~$6 card and an extra turn is a pretty worthwhile trade (depending on why you have or how you gained the Potion).

Frontier
Types: Action, Duration
Cost: $3
Gain a Copper to the top of your deck per Frontier you have in play. If this is the first time you played a Frontier this turn, and the previous turn wasn't yours, then take an extra turn after this one. (This stays in play.)
Playing one Frontier is likely mandatory on virtually any board, though its timing is hardly trivial and the second and on become questionable based upon the ability to trash Coppers.  Even on boards with no trashing, I think the first Frontier will typically be mandatory, which is definitely to the strength of the card.

Borrowed Land
Types: Victory
Cost: $4
1VP
When you gain or trash this, take your Turn token and return it at the start of Clean-Up. If you do and the previous turn wasn't yours, take another turn after this one during which you cannot buy Victory cards
Memorial
Types: Victory
Cost: $6
2VP
If this is the first time, you bought a Memorial this turn, take an extra turn after this one, during which you can't buy Victory cards.
I'll assume these were designed separately in spite of their similarities.
I like Borrowed Land for having the trashing incentive, though its current cost renders it so similar to Flag Bearer.  It will probably be much more frustrating too, because Flag Bearer at least provides a terminal-Silver as a consolation prize when you can't trash it.
I like Memorial for having a higher cost and more VP attached to it, but it looks like it will only ever make the later turns (the longest turns of the game) even longer.

They both have a fun and unique VP-turn\build-turn dynamic.
I'd probably like them better at $5 with 2VP and the gain+trash extra turn.  It would make it more expensive to buy and trash for the extra turns and more tempting to keep in the face of its trashing incentive.

Heir
Types: Event
Cost: <4>
Once per turn: Gain a Curse. Choose one: take your –1 Coin token and a Turn token, then each other player gets +2%; or take your –1 Card token, return two Turn tokens, and take an additional turn after this one.
Setup: include ten additional Curses in the Supply
Some of your commentary disagrees with the way I am parsing the card. As I read it, I can buy Heir multiple times in a turn and I only gain 1 Curse each turn.
Putting -$1 token and <> tokens together reads oddly.  I'd pare down.  Maybe gain a Curse and take your -1 Card token either way?  Then you could simplify the once per turn, too (because you can typically only take your -1 Card token once until you draw--which you don't typically do in the Buy phase).  "Gain a Curse and take your -1 Card token. If you do both..."
I also don't think it needs this setup condition.  You want to keep Heir from becoming too good in Cursing games, but instead have made something that will make Cursing cards stronger.  So long as taking or spending Turn tokens is contingent upon gaining the Curse, it will never get unreasonable.  I think having to buy 3 Heirs is probably unnecessary.  Gaining 3 Curses for 1 turn will almost never be worth the cost: 2 is likely sufficient.
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spineflu

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Re: Weekly Design Contest Thread
« Reply #3534 on: September 17, 2019, 09:55:22 am »
+1

so this is kind of stream-of-conciousness; bear with me


Heir
Types: Event
Cost: <4>
Once per turn: Gain a Curse. Choose one: take your –1 Coin token and a Turn token, then each other player gets +2%; or take your –1 Card token, return two Turn tokens, and take an additional turn after this one.
Setup: include ten additional Curses in the Supply
Some of your commentary disagrees with the way I am parsing the card. As I read it, I can buy Heir multiple times in a turn and I only gain 1 Curse each turn.
Putting -$1 token and <> tokens together reads oddly.  I'd pare down.  Maybe gain a Curse and take your -1 Card token either way?  Then you could simplify the once per turn, too (because you can typically only take your -1 Card token once until you draw--which you don't typically do in the Buy phase).  "Gain a Curse and take your -1 Card token. If you do both..."
I also don't think it needs this setup condition.  You want to keep Heir from becoming too good in Cursing games, but instead have made something that will make Cursing cards stronger.  So long as taking or spending Turn tokens is contingent upon gaining the Curse, it will never get unreasonable.  I think having to buy 3 Heirs is probably unnecessary.  Gaining 3 Curses for 1 turn will almost never be worth the cost: 2 is likely sufficient.

The "Once per turn" verbiage is same as from Pilgrimage. They event is buy-able once per turn. Not sure how to make that more clear.

I think I do want it to have abuseability/cheeseability when the curses run out (or you've got Watchtower/Trader) - you've still got a penalty both in the slow build up to amass turn tokens and in the immediate penalty tokens you're hitting yourself with, plus the debt.

The 2:1 tokens:turns ratio even without curses, i arrived at because... well, change that to 1:1 and you've got Three turns in a row with Outpost or Mission happening almost constantly [turn 1: buy Heir for token + Mission (or play outpost, buy Heir for token), turn 2: buy Heir, return token]. I think that's worth avoiding.

idk if I like the idea of self-handsize attacking to set up the card - self-money-sabotage is less painful in my estimate. Does cut down on lines though. Let's see how that'd look.
Quote
Once per turn: Gain a Curse and take your –1 Card Token, then choose one: take a Turn token and each other player gets +2%; or return two Turn tokens and take an additional turn after this one.
-
Setup: include 3 additional Curses per player in the Supply
i think 3 additional curses per player (while not exactly standard procedure for the Curse pile) is probably a sufficient balance between Curser-power-enabling and providing enough fuel for this card.

As far as 3-curses-per-bonus-turn, that might be A Lot in a vaccuum or if you're the only one dealing in Heirs, but [in 2-player] if your opponent is mirroring (trashing aside), you've got a net gain in VP per set-of-extra-turns for the table - in 3+ player, you've got a major gain in points from this. If only there were some way to set aside Curses you gain through this

....uh



Quote
Heir • <4> • Event
Once per turn, choose one: Gain a Curse to your Heirs mat, then each other player gets +2%; or put two Curse cards from your Heirs mat onto your deck to take an additional turn after this one.
-
Setup: include 3 additional Curses per player in the Supply
FAQ: cards on your Heirs mat, like your tavern mat/island mat/NV mat, are still part of your deck
  • still have to three buys, but now only two curses per bonus turn
  • not-as-OP for cursers
  • does the handsize hit when the bonus turn
  • reads cleaner for once-per-turn?
  • eliminates turn tokens - return your nickels to the change jar
  • opportunity for hubris (and therefore a good story, and therefore fun/replayability) if people somehow get stuck with no way of getting their amassed curses off of their Heirs mat (or accidentally do a "Donate" with like eight curses on their Heirs mat)
  • breaks the Watchtower + Trader defense against gaining Curses - a Silver gained to your curse mat won't help you
  • Curses run out? no more Heir turns.
  • art for the heirs mat should be of ways your children have disappointed you


it takes some setup, but Trader and Graverobber would let you infinite* turns with this.
* i mean, until the silvers run out and then some
Coffee Roast can go infinite with two parts:
1) Some way to keep the Coffee Roasts from running out (being Trader (notably, running out of Silvers doesn't matter: Trader will just stop giving you Silvers) or Ambassador + an unconditional blocker (like Lighthouse or Guardian))
2) Some way to get the Potions out of the trash (being Graverobber, Rogue, or Treasurer)
Having it trigger on gain would make it infinite with Treasurer without needing anything else.
There are probably some complicated rewordings that could try to avoid literally infinite turns, but [...]


[...]
Challenge #44: Extra! Extra!
[...]Remember to word it so you can't get infinite turns. [...]
« Last Edit: September 17, 2019, 12:23:13 pm by spineflu »
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anordinaryman

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Re: Weekly Design Contest Thread
« Reply #3535 on: September 17, 2019, 11:45:27 am »
+1

I'm changing your bolding to focus on the more important aspect of what I said.

Coffee Roast
Types: Treasure
Cost: $4P
$2, +2 Cards.
When you buy this, you may trash a Potion you have in play. If you do, take an extra turn after this one.
Excellent use of potions! I think the +2 cards in a $ phase is an interesting concept that doesn't belong on this card. I'd say this can be stronger like $3 maybe $3 +1buy or $2 +1 buy. The +1 buy would make the concept make sense as you have to spend buys for the potion you just lost.
I believe I disagree with this general design philosophy you are displaying (and throughout your judging post). It seems to me you are looking at cards that have problems baked into them and considering them poorly designed for that reason: I think cards that have inherent problems are the best designed cards because you have to look elsewhere in the Kingdom to solve them.
"+2 Cards, +$2" is too strong for $5 and too boring for $6.  Coffee Roast moves the effect sideways by costing $4P with the extra turn stuff and moving it to a Treasure where the +Cards become awkward.  It hopefully pulls down the earlier Coffee Roast turns as a pseudo-stop-card, but I'm not sure it will do that.  Later Coffee Roast turns will be great because of its self-synergy.
If you really want to, you can view the extra turn as the +Buy after which you are asking, but you want to manage much more than that on your Coffee Roast turn.

Also, theme.  It's caffeine, so you get to take another turn.  The card draw represents productivity, but it is of an unusual and undirected sort that you might not be able to leverage very well as society adapts to the common consumption of caffeine.

I think I'm being misrepresented here. I'm re-quoting the below in case you missed this. I don't like cards that solve all their problems. I like cards that are clearly focused.

What's weird is I think we actually agree a lot more than it seems. When I read your sentence I wanted to explain what cards design I like and a ton of the examples you gave were the same examples I'd give. To me I also don't like when one card solves all of it's problems -- Margrave is a good example of a card with too much going for it. I like it when cards are about single topics such that they naturally effect themselves. On the flip side, Margrave's attack is well designed: it is not an attack the second time it's a benefit to the opponent, so that reacts with itself. That's what I mean by single-concept cards that naturally have synergy or anti-synergy with itself.

My opinion was that I really loved the concept of the tome and cursing and I think there's a separate concept of "cheap cursers" and I thought it would be better if you focused on one of those concepts. Of course, that's totally opinion. I still would really love to see what you did with Tome and curses to hand without the concept of "cheap curser" also.

In case you saw this earlier, I'm going to try to explain again.

The +2 cards is like adding a 4th hole to a pair of pants. Shirts need 4 holes, pants don't. By the way, I don't think that adding a +buy is actually the way to make this card better, it was just a way of showing clearly, hey here is something that is more focused. The +buy makes it too powerful and wouldn't be great design.

 +2 cards just muddies the concept. There's a whole wonderful card design involved around getting +2 cards as a treasure and making that work, and there's a whole wonderful card design around balancing extra turns. Slamming those two concepts together is leading to a poorer design. And the hope that it draws cards you wanted -- that doesn't impact the next turn in the same way that discarding from the top of your opponent's deck is not an attack. If you wanted to make it more focused you could draw 2 action cards, but you might as well discard them from top of deck instead of draw in treasure phase.

There's a lot to like about this card. Using potions is a really great way of balancing the extra turn mechanic.

I thought I had clearly articulated that before, but I guess not. Perhaps we disagree on this -- do you like to add many different concepts onto a card at once? If so, I'll definitely stop providing you feedback to pare your cards down to one focused concept.

« Last Edit: September 17, 2019, 12:06:08 pm by anordinaryman »
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Kudasai

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Re: Weekly Design Contest Thread
« Reply #3536 on: September 17, 2019, 01:01:32 pm »
+1

I'm changing your bolding to focus on the more important aspect of what I said.

Coffee Roast
Types: Treasure
Cost: $4P
$2, +2 Cards.
When you buy this, you may trash a Potion you have in play. If you do, take an extra turn after this one.
Excellent use of potions! I think the +2 cards in a $ phase is an interesting concept that doesn't belong on this card. I'd say this can be stronger like $3 maybe $3 +1buy or $2 +1 buy. The +1 buy would make the concept make sense as you have to spend buys for the potion you just lost.
I believe I disagree with this general design philosophy you are displaying (and throughout your judging post). It seems to me you are looking at cards that have problems baked into them and considering them poorly designed for that reason: I think cards that have inherent problems are the best designed cards because you have to look elsewhere in the Kingdom to solve them.
"+2 Cards, +$2" is too strong for $5 and too boring for $6.  Coffee Roast moves the effect sideways by costing $4P with the extra turn stuff and moving it to a Treasure where the +Cards become awkward.  It hopefully pulls down the earlier Coffee Roast turns as a pseudo-stop-card, but I'm not sure it will do that.  Later Coffee Roast turns will be great because of its self-synergy.
If you really want to, you can view the extra turn as the +Buy after which you are asking, but you want to manage much more than that on your Coffee Roast turn.

Also, theme.  It's caffeine, so you get to take another turn.  The card draw represents productivity, but it is of an unusual and undirected sort that you might not be able to leverage very well as society adapts to the common consumption of caffeine.

I think I'm being misrepresented here. I'm re-quoting the below in case you missed this. I don't like cards that solve all their problems. I like cards that are clearly focused.

What's weird is I think we actually agree a lot more than it seems. When I read your sentence I wanted to explain what cards design I like and a ton of the examples you gave were the same examples I'd give. To me I also don't like when one card solves all of it's problems -- Margrave is a good example of a card with too much going for it. I like it when cards are about single topics such that they naturally effect themselves. On the flip side, Margrave's attack is well designed: it is not an attack the second time it's a benefit to the opponent, so that reacts with itself. That's what I mean by single-concept cards that naturally have synergy or anti-synergy with itself.

My opinion was that I really loved the concept of the tome and cursing and I think there's a separate concept of "cheap cursers" and I thought it would be better if you focused on one of those concepts. Of course, that's totally opinion. I still would really love to see what you did with Tome and curses to hand without the concept of "cheap curser" also.

In case you saw this earlier, I'm going to try to explain again.

The +2 cards is like adding a 4th hole to a pair of pants. Shirts need 4 holes, pants don't. By the way, I don't think that adding a +buy is actually the way to make this card better, it was just a way of showing clearly, hey here is something that is more focused. The +buy makes it too powerful and wouldn't be great design.

 +2 cards just muddies the concept. There's a whole wonderful card design involved around getting +2 cards as a treasure and making that work, and there's a whole wonderful card design around balancing extra turns. Slamming those two concepts together is leading to a poorer design. And the hope that it draws cards you wanted -- that doesn't impact the next turn in the same way that discarding from the top of your opponent's deck is not an attack. If you wanted to make it more focused you could draw 2 action cards, but you might as well discard them from top of deck instead of draw in treasure phase.

There's a lot to like about this card. Using potions is a really great way of balancing the extra turn mechanic.

I thought I had clearly articulated that before, but I guess not. Perhaps we disagree on this -- do you like to add many different concepts onto a card at once? If so, I'll definitely stop providing you feedback to pare your cards down to one focused concept.

I feel like I'm jumping halfway into a conversation, so I'll just apologize now if this is off topic! One of my favorite things about Dominion is trying to figure out how to extract the maximum value out of a card. Sometimes this is a question of how many of a card to buy and when, but mostly it's about figuring out those key Kingdom card interactions.

Coffee Roast is doing a lot of great things: drawing, giving coin and giving an extra turn, but as you said they all sort of bump into each other. Probably for good reason too as all of these alone would make a powerful and problematic card. Players that manage to solve this puzzle and draw without effecting their next turn, get an extra Buy and navigate the high cost of $4P are going to be rewarded with an awesome card. Those who don't will stumble. Balance is maintained!
« Last Edit: September 17, 2019, 04:08:01 pm by Kudasai »
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naitchman

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Re: Weekly Design Contest Thread
« Reply #3537 on: September 17, 2019, 01:23:27 pm »
+3

Here is your 24 hour warning. Get your submissions in.
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Re: Weekly Design Contest Thread
« Reply #3538 on: September 18, 2019, 01:30:19 pm »
+1

Raft $2
Action-Traveller
Trash a card from your hand.
-
When you discard this from play, you may exchange it for a Fishing Vessel.

Fishing Vessel $3*
+ $2
+1 Buy
At the start of your next turn, choose one: + $1, +1 Buy; or you may exchange it for a Cog, putting it on the bottom of your deck.
(This is not in the Supply.)






If you've already started judging by now you can ignore this, but some feedback would be nice from anyone.
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naitchman

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Re: Weekly Design Contest Thread
« Reply #3539 on: September 18, 2019, 03:08:13 pm »
+3

Gonna start judging now.
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naitchman

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Re: Weekly Design Contest Thread
« Reply #3540 on: September 18, 2019, 11:26:03 pm »
+4

Hey everyone here's my thoughts on the cards.
I'm creating the following terminology when talking about different types of extra turn cards
Level 0- Once per game. Cards in this category can gain one extra turn the entire game. Fleet is in this category.
Level 1- Once per turn on one turn (per round). Cards in this category can be played only once per turn, and only allow one extra turn per round (usually because they don't allow extra turns on any type of extra turn). Outpost and Mission would fall in this category.
Level 2- Once per turn over multiple turns. Cards in this category can only be played once per turn, but can be played on extra turns (like outpost and mission turns) that are not its own.
Level 3- Multiple per turn on one turn. Cards in this category can be played multiple times on a turn, but can't be utilized on extra turns (its own or others).
Level 4- Multiple per turn over multiple turns. Cards in this category can be played multiple times on a single turn, and over multiple turns per round (though not on its own extra turns, or else infinite loops would be possible). Possession would fall in this category.
Level 5- Infinite Loop. An extra turn card that could allow for infinite turns (usually because it allows itself to be played on its own extra turns).
Other- Cards that don't fall in these categories.


Double Shift by Pst
Quote

Double Shift- Project - $5
After one of your turns in which you gain a Victory card costing more than $5 you get an extra turn. During that extra turn, whenever you would gain a Victory card, instead gain nothing.
A level 2 extra turn. An interesting concept. It's going to be used toward the end, once you've started greening, but you can't use the extra turn to get more points (normally; edge cases always apply). Instead, you'll use it to keep your deck composition. Assuming there aren't nobles, harem, or farmland in the game it will just trigger on provinces meaning you'll probably get ~3-4 extra turns on it. If there's a good enough engine to double-province, you'll get even less. I think it would be better as a level 1, but other than that I like it.

Night Shift by Aquila
Quote

Night Shift - Event - $2
Once per game: take another turn after this one, starting with 0 Actions.
A level 0 extra turn. I'm not against level 0 extra turns, I just think this was a bad case to use it. I like the concept of allowing an extra turn with no actions. It's something I might even be able to build a deck around to take advantage of that extra turn (just like one does with outpost). But if I can only get 1 extra turn the whole game, it's not worth building my deck around it, so it makes this card much less interesting. I think this might work better as an action card (I'm guessing the only reason it was an event was to make it once per game) and changed to a level 1 extra turn (you'll probably have to tweak the price).

Pact by Grrgrrgrr
Quote

Pact - Project - $8
For the rest of the game, play 2 turns in a row. When you trash a Copper, move it to the discard.
-
After buying this project, gain 7 Coppers.
A permanent Level 1 extra turn at the cost of having (at least) 7  untrashable coppers. I like this idea. The fact that you get an extra turn every round isn't as crazy as it first appeared since a well constructed engine can do the same with a single buy of outpost. I think this compares well to outpost in general. Outpost gives an extra turn with only 3 cards. With Pact, you'll have so many coppers, it'll be like having less cards. If you had 21 "good" cards and 7 coppers, you can expect 1.25 cards in each hand to be a copper making it harder to run your engine. The downside is this hits you even on your non-extra turns. In engines, trashing is a must for this buy (14 coppers is just too much).This could be used more effectively for extra turns by BM (than other extra turn cards) since BM usually isn't drawing your deck every turn. In addition BM doesn't care as much about copper. Trashing would be helpful for BM. Alt VP (especially gardens) could probably benefit from this without trashing at all, since your price points are usually lower. Of course $8 is hard to reach for alt VP usually.

Despite all of my analysis, this is one of those cards I think I would understand better with playtesting. There might need to be some tweaking (maybe gain 6 coppers or 8 coppers). I think the price could definitely use some tweaking. It seems like a good fit for BM and Alt VP yet for BM it doesn't work because you have give up a province for it (BM advantage is usually speed), and Alt VP usually has trouble hitting $8. Maybe lower the price or convert it to debt?

In addition, trader can still work here. Maybe instead of gaining the coppers, you just put them in your discard?

Bonanza by mandiaco15
Quote
Bonanza - Event - $5

At the end of this turn, if you have unspent coins, take Voyager, and take another turn after this one, where you draw one card per unspent coin for your hand.
---
You can't buy this if you have Voyager.


Voyager - State
Worth 1VP if you have this at the end of the game.

I think the intention was a Level 1 extra turn but because you take Voyager at the end of the turn this is technically a Level 3. The simplest fix is either a "once per turn" clause or taking voyager when you buy it. That aside, I don't see this being used many times in a game. In order to be a worthwhile buy, you probably need to be producing a large amount of money each turn, and buy something else with this. If I have $10 and buy this and leave the $5 for 5 cards, I would need to be confident I'm going to get more than $10 on this extra turn to have gained anything(why didn't that happen this turn?). Buying this at $7 (2 cards for next turn) seems like a long shot, and at $8 or more (outpost level), I could've just gotten a province. A likely scenario is I have $18 and 2 (or more) buys. Buy province and Bonanza (leave 5 cards for next turn) and then double province next turn. At that point, I have to wait for my oponent to have a worthwhile turn to buy bonanza, and at that point the games almost over. I might not even be able to buy bonanza a 2nd time. I'm sure there are exceptions (guide, hireling, etc.) but I think this is the likely case. I think the choices on this aren't so intriguing. I liked the concept of Voyager (by taking an extra turn, you allow your opponent to take an extra turn. likewise, you can deny your opponent extra turns by not taking extra turns yourself), but when it's expected to pass back and forth so few times, it's not as interesting. I also think Voyager would be a little more interesting as a penalty (-1VP) since whoever takes the last extra turn, is going to have a slight advantage.

Coffee Roast by Fragasnap
Quote

Coffee Roast - Treasure - $4P
$2
+2 Cards
-
When you buy this, you may trash a Potion you have in play. If you do, take another turn after this one.
A level 5 extra turn. Not only is the card itself pretty strong, 2 peddlers and a lab (even though it's during you buy phase), but it gives an extra turn on top of this (at the cost of a potion). If this were limited to one per round, this could be an ok card. I see this working better in BM deck since it reduces the chance of terminal collision with your actions. It could likely be better than a gold (sometimes even a platinum) if it draws the right cards. I think the glaring error is the infinite turn possibility with trader and treasurer. Any infinite turn loop can be abused (add monument, goons, anything that gains coffers, etc.). The fact that this only requires 3 cards is a problem (see KC-Goons-Masquerade).

Refuge by Kudasai
Quote

Refuge - Night - $8
Name a phase.
If this is the first time you played a Refuge this turn, take an extra turn after this one, where you can only play your Clean-up and phases named this turn with Refuge.
A Level 5 extra turn. I know you acknowledged the fact that this can infinite turn loop, but it can really be abused even with only 2 with werewolf. A deck of 4 werewolves and 2 Refuges can dish out an unlimited number of hexes, giving out all the curses, all the coppers, and making your opponents trash a bunch of cards (among other things). I think restricting this down to just action or buy could've made an interesting card though. I think there are plenty of decks that can work with this in interesting ways.

Voyage by Commodore Chuckles
Quote

Voyage - Night - $5
End your Night phase. Take another turn after this one where you discard your hand at the end of your Action phase.
A Level 2 extra turn. I think this works well. It gives a restriction to work around to make that extra turn worthwhile. This could work in situations when Tactician would work (virtual coin). It would work very nice with tactician  :D. Overall I like it.

Penance by setchafle
Quote
Penance - Event - $4
If the previous turn wasn't yours, take an extra turn after this one. During that turn when you play a card, discard a card sharing a type with the played card or reveal you can't.
A Level 3 extra turn. This sounds a bit harsh to work with. It's almost impossible to grow your handsize (labs or village-smithy don't work), meaning you won't be able to play that many payload cards. Absent of some very key cards, it's going to be hard to produce alot of $ on  this turn. In addition, I'm not a fan of not limiting the buys for this.

Frontier by anordinaryman
Quote

Frontier - Action - $3
Gain a Copper to the top of your deck per Frontier you have in play. If this is the first time you played a Frontier this turn, and the previous turn wasn't yours, then take an extra turn after this one.
A Level 1 extra turn. Obviously, there's no reason to play more (barring some weird reason to want coppers). It feels unnecessary to even put the "per frontier you have in play" clause. That aside, this sounds a bit too strong. Outpost gives you three cards and costs $5. This gives you 4 cards plus a copper and costs $3. Yes, you get junked, but it shouldn't be too hard to trash it it (consider that trashing is usually necessary in an outpost strategy anyway to guarantee getting reasonable cards in your 3 card draw).

Extra Allowance by majiponi
Quote
Extra Allowance - Event - $2
Once per turn: Take your Allowance token. If you have 3, remove all tokens used in this game, and if the previous turn wasn't your turn, take another.
This extra turn falls in the other category (you can get it on its own extra turns but it takes 3 for 1). I like the idea of setting aside a little for a turn down the line. I think a +buy would make this a little better (since I can get this early game without wasting my buys). However, I think the "remove all tokens from the game" clause is way too wonky. I mean it doesn't even say your tokens, so this will affect your opponents too. All debt tokens, coffers, villagers, VP tokens (bye-bye lead), journey tokens (how does that even work if you don't have a journey token), vanilla bonuses, etc. get removed which means going for them is a waste in this game. Just removing the allowance tokens would've been fine.

Con Artist by mail-mi
Quote

Con Artist - Action - $5
+1 Card
+1 Action
+ $1
At the start of your next turn: +1 Card, +1 Action, +1 Buy
-
While this is in play, each other player may take an extra turn at the end of one of their turns if the previous turn wasn't theirs. If they do, at the end of their extra turn, +6 Coffers, +4%, +2 Villagers
A Level 3 extra turn for your opponents at a cost. I feel like the cost of this extra turn is bit steep (this is especially true in a 4p game where you can get the bonus multiple times). I would have to be confident I'm getting more than a province since I'm giving you 4 VP tokens and 6 coffers (which can translate into VP). The card itself also feels pretty strong (peddler this turn, almost a level 3 city next turn). I think this could also be frustrating in a 3p or 4p game where one opponent is utilizing another opponent's con artist when he really shouldn't. I'm not sure if there's a great way to give opponents extra turns in this manner.

Siege by grep
Quote

Siege - Project - $5
At the beginning on your turn, if the previous turn was not yours, you can discard your hand to take your Siege token.
At the end of your Cleanup phase, you can return the Siege token. If you do, take another turn after this one.
Level 1 Extra turn. Reminds me of Guide. Often it won't really be giving extra turns, since you'll be using up this turn to get it, but with some shtick (guide, duration bonuses) you could turn this into an extra turn. I like it.

Prototype by NoMoreFun
Quote
Prototype - Action - $4
Gain a card costing up to $4
If this is the first time you played a Prototype this turn, and the previous turn wasn't yours, you may set aside the gained card to take an extra turn after this one, and put the set aside card into your hand instead of drawing your next hand.
A Level 1 extra turn. I think there's something to the concept of being able to construct your extra turn hand, but I don't think this will usually work as is. There are few $4 or less cards that can start an engine by themselves unless your deck is really well stacked (and I mean really well stacked). Even if there was a card that it could work for, it'd be a little boring, since all players will just use prototype on that card until it's gone and then prototype doesn't work anymore.

Negotiator by Gazbag
Quote

Negotiator - Action - $6
If this is the first time you played a Negotiator this turn, and the previous turn wasn't yours, then take an extra turn after this one. During your next turn, whenever you gain a card, each other player gets +1 Villager and +1 Coffers.
A Level 1 extra turn. Nice and simple. An extra turn where your opponents get a bonus for you buying cards (which is usually the point of the extra turn). I like it.

Borrowed Land by 4est
Quote

Borrowed Land - Victory - $4
1%
-
When you gain or trash this, take your Turn token and return it at the start of Clean Up. If you do, and the previous turn wasn't yours, take another turn after this one during which you cannot buy Victory cards.
A Level 1 extra turn. I think this would've been nicer without the token (even if it is wordy). Regardless, I like the card. You get an extra turn at the cost of junking yourself. In addition the extra turn can't be used for victory cards. Since this also gets use on trashing, I can utilize this even in the beginning since I get a net +buy when I buy and trash this.

Desert Outpost by Gubump
Quote

Desert Outpost - Action - $5
+2 Cards
If this is the first time you've played a Desert Outpost this turn and the previous turn wasn't yours, then set aside up to 5 cards from your hand, take an extra turn after this one, and put the set aside cards into your hand instead of drawing your next hand.
A Level 1 extra turn. It feels a bit strong. Even though you have to sacrifice cards this turn, the fact that you can choose them is a big deal. I can set aside 2 cards (village-smithy) and have a reliable engine next turn. And it gives you good odds of having the cards you need with that draw. I think it's a little OP especially at the price point.

Memorial by King Leon
Quote

Memorial - Victory - $6
2 VP
---
If this is the first time, you bought a Memorial this turn, take an extra turn after this one, during which you can't buy Victory cards.
A Level 2 extra turn for buying a victory card. Not bad. An extra turn without victory cards at the cost of junking yourself a little. I like this kind of balance getting the benefit without junking yourself too much.

Heir by spineflu
Quote


Heir - Event - 4d
Once per turn, choose one: Gain a Curse to your Heirs mat, then each other player gets +2%; or put two Curse cards from your Heirs mat onto your deck to take an additional turn after this one.
-
Setup: include 3 additional Curses per player in the Supply
This extra turn falls in the other category (you can get it on its own extra turns but it takes 3 for 1). This seems way too expensive for a single extra turn (that only gets 3 cards and 2 curses in hand). It takes $12, (in debt) 3 buys, 4vp to all opponents, and 2 curses to get a single outpost-like turn. You'd have to get a province just to break even on points (not to mention the opportunity cost of $12 and 3 buys). On top of that, you have to set up a deck that can work with outpost. Compare that to just buying Outpost a single time and getting extra turns every round. I also think this will just make cursers more strong in that they will be able to curse longer.

Raft (Traveler Line) by Fly-Eagles-Fly
Quote
Raft - Action - $2
Trash a card from your hand.
-
When you discard this from play, you may exchange it for a Fishing Vessel.

Fishing Vessel - Action - $3*
+ $2
+1 Buy
At the start of your next turn, choose one: + $1, +1 Buy; or you may exchange it for a Cog, putting it on the bottom of your deck.
(This is not in the Supply.)


Cog - Action - $4*
+3 Cards
+1 Action
Discard 2 cards.
At the start of your next turn, choose one: +3 Cards, discard 2 cards; or exchange this for a Galleon, putting it on the bottom of your deck.
(This is not in the Supply)


Galleon - Action - $5*
+1 Card
+1 Action
+ $2
Each other player discards a treasure card from their hand or reveals they can't.
-
When you discard this from play, you may exchange it for a Flagship
(This is not in the Supply)


Flagship - Action - $6*
+1 Card
+1 Action
While this is in play, when you play a Duration card, +1%. At the end of the game, choose one:
+2%; or take an extra turn.
(This stays in play; This is not in the Supply)
A Level 0 extra turn. I'll be a little lenient in this judging since Traveler lines are hard to make. Raft is good; you avoided the common pitfall of making the beginning of a traveler line too good. It's weak for $2 (not including the exchange) which is what it should be. Fishing Vessel is also a weakish card (as it should be). Cog is very good if you choose +3 cards for next turn (not sure why the discard option is there). I was thinking this might fit better in slot 4, but then again warrior is usually the card people keep over hero so it's not crazy that the better card is in slot 3. Of course galleon is also very strong. BTW I like the creative way to exchange fishing vessel and cog instead of the simple cleanup way.

My thoughts on Flagship:
1) You get an extra turn per flagship at the end of the game, but how do you know how many you have without looking through your deck? You should probably get a token when you gain a flagship to track this. Also this should be below a line (just like the in play effect). In addition it should be orange.
2) I like the choice between extra turn and 2vp since sometimes 2vp might just be better.
3) The while in play effect can kind of break this. Since you have so many durations in this line alone (15) and you can stack multiple flagships (each which will get points when played), you can really get some broken VP engines with this (especially cog which is a great draw card). Unlike most other VP token cards, this is not contingent on buying/gaining cards or trashing them, and it can give  is very likely. It's probably likely even without since if I have 3 flagships and play 3 duration cards per turn, that's 9 points without changing my deck.


Conclusion: There were some pretty good cards to choose from. The top 5 were Double Shift, Voyage, Siege, Negotiator, and Borrrowed Land. This was a pretty tough decision among these. At the end of the day, Negotiator didn't seem like too much of a choice (it seems always worth it to go for). Between the rest I was really drawn to voyage's challenge of making a deck that could ultilize it's extra turn, and Borrowed Land, which required a little balancing with your extra turns. In the end, I'm drawn more towards voyage.

Winner: Voyage by Commodore Chuckles
Runner-Up: Borrowed Land by 4est

Congrats Commodore Chuckles (and everyone else)
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Kudasai

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Re: Weekly Design Contest Thread
« Reply #3541 on: September 19, 2019, 12:50:41 am »
+1

@naitchman - Good catch. I think I'll slip in a clause saying you can't play Attack cards on your extra turn. It is a Refuge after all! Thanks for the thoughtful feedback.
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NoMoreFun

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Re: Weekly Design Contest Thread
« Reply #3542 on: September 19, 2019, 03:09:55 am »
0


Prototype by NoMoreFun
Quote
Prototype - Action - $4
Gain a card costing up to $4
If this is the first time you played a Prototype this turn, and the previous turn wasn't yours, you may set aside the gained card to take an extra turn after this one, and put the set aside card into your hand instead of drawing your next hand.
A Level 1 extra turn. I think there's something to the concept of being able to construct your extra turn hand, but I don't think this will usually work as is. There are few $4 or less cards that can start an engine by themselves unless your deck is really well stacked (and I mean really well stacked). Even if there was a card that it could work for, it'd be a little boring, since all players will just use prototype on that card until it's gone and then prototype doesn't work anymore.

Thank you for the feedback.

Not sure what you meant by "won't work". The card is "workshop with a bonus" and costed as such (same as Ironworks, Armory, Inventor). In every game it can be used as "Gain a card costing up to $4 and a prototype" and "Gain a Silver and a $2 card". Then you have the small positive effects from cards in a way somewhat similar to when you buy a card under Innovation (eg being able to get the next turn effects of durations, instant attacks, cycling). There'd be some ways to start an engine (eg draw and Villagers/CotR, or a Guide you played earlier), but that wasn't the core use I imagined for the card.

In that context "a little boring" rings true enough so not complaining about your judgement here.

Congrats to Commodore Chuckles
« Last Edit: September 19, 2019, 03:12:16 am by NoMoreFun »
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anordinaryman

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Re: Weekly Design Contest Thread
« Reply #3543 on: September 19, 2019, 10:16:06 am »
0

Congrats Commodore Chuckles!


Frontier by anordinaryman
Quote

Frontier - Action - $3
Gain a Copper to the top of your deck per Frontier you have in play. If this is the first time you played a Frontier this turn, and the previous turn wasn't yours, then take an extra turn after this one.
A Level 1 extra turn. Obviously, there's no reason to play more (barring some weird reason to want coppers). It feels unnecessary to even put the "per frontier you have in play" clause. That aside, this sounds a bit too strong. Outpost gives you three cards and costs $5. This gives you 4 cards plus a copper and costs $3. Yes, you get junked, but it shouldn't be too hard to trash it it (consider that trashing is usually necessary in an outpost strategy anyway to guarantee getting reasonable cards in your 3 card draw).

When you copied my card description, you omitted the super important part "this stays in play" at the end. In the image it also says "this stays in play." The whole point is that each time you play it it gets worse, you get one more copper, and you only get one play out of each card. So, you buy one, play it and you get one copper. Second one you buy and play and you get now two coppers, etc. I agree that the card as you read it is over powered and not interesting  and can't cost 3. I'm curious how the proper reading changes your thoughts/ideas. Also, I'd like to know anything I could have done to make it more clear so it wasn't easy to miss that last sentence.
« Last Edit: September 19, 2019, 10:21:46 am by anordinaryman »
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naitchman

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Re: Weekly Design Contest Thread
« Reply #3544 on: September 19, 2019, 11:19:18 am »
+1

Congrats Commodore Chuckles!


Frontier by anordinaryman
Quote

Frontier - Action - $3
Gain a Copper to the top of your deck per Frontier you have in play. If this is the first time you played a Frontier this turn, and the previous turn wasn't yours, then take an extra turn after this one.
A Level 1 extra turn. Obviously, there's no reason to play more (barring some weird reason to want coppers). It feels unnecessary to even put the "per frontier you have in play" clause. That aside, this sounds a bit too strong. Outpost gives you three cards and costs $5. This gives you 4 cards plus a copper and costs $3. Yes, you get junked, but it shouldn't be too hard to trash it it (consider that trashing is usually necessary in an outpost strategy anyway to guarantee getting reasonable cards in your 3 card draw).

When you copied my card description, you omitted the super important part "this stays in play" at the end. In the image it also says "this stays in play." The whole point is that each time you play it it gets worse, you get one more copper, and you only get one play out of each card. So, you buy one, play it and you get one copper. Second one you buy and play and you get now two coppers, etc. I agree that the card as you read it is over powered and not interesting  and can't cost 3. I'm curious how the proper reading changes your thoughts/ideas. Also, I'd like to know anything I could have done to make it more clear so it wasn't easy to miss that last sentence.

Oops. that makes more sense. I was a little tired last night, sorry. I guess, I can rescind most of my criticism. It's much better than before. Though now being able to use it will be severly limited. Besides all the copper gain, you have to buy one per extra turn you want, and your extra turns get worse fast. Barring a guide, I highly doubt I'd play more than 2.
« Last Edit: September 19, 2019, 11:20:46 am by naitchman »
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Kudasai

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Re: Weekly Design Contest Thread
« Reply #3545 on: September 19, 2019, 12:38:34 pm »
+1

Congrats Commodore Chuckles!


Frontier by anordinaryman
Quote

Frontier - Action - $3
Gain a Copper to the top of your deck per Frontier you have in play. If this is the first time you played a Frontier this turn, and the previous turn wasn't yours, then take an extra turn after this one.
A Level 1 extra turn. Obviously, there's no reason to play more (barring some weird reason to want coppers). It feels unnecessary to even put the "per frontier you have in play" clause. That aside, this sounds a bit too strong. Outpost gives you three cards and costs $5. This gives you 4 cards plus a copper and costs $3. Yes, you get junked, but it shouldn't be too hard to trash it it (consider that trashing is usually necessary in an outpost strategy anyway to guarantee getting reasonable cards in your 3 card draw).

When you copied my card description, you omitted the super important part "this stays in play" at the end. In the image it also says "this stays in play." The whole point is that each time you play it it gets worse, you get one more copper, and you only get one play out of each card. So, you buy one, play it and you get one copper. Second one you buy and play and you get now two coppers, etc. I agree that the card as you read it is over powered and not interesting  and can't cost 3. I'm curious how the proper reading changes your thoughts/ideas. Also, I'd like to know anything I could have done to make it more clear so it wasn't easy to miss that last sentence.

I think the main problem is the top part doesn't technically keep the card in play for any reason. Something like this might work while keeping the mechanics the same way:

For the rest of the game: When you play a Frontier (including this time) gain a Copper onto your deck.

If this is the first time you played a Frontier this turn and the previous turn wasn't yours, then take an extra turn after this one.

(This stays in play.)


[UPDATE] Other than that, I think this is a really innovative design that has a lot of play potential. I would start it at $4 though to mostly avoid opening with 2 of these.
« Last Edit: September 19, 2019, 02:17:57 pm by Kudasai »
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Commodore Chuckles

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Re: Weekly Design Contest Thread
« Reply #3546 on: September 19, 2019, 06:18:18 pm »
+1

Thank you very much, naitchman! And thanks again to Kudasai for pointing out the Clean-up phase problem with the first version of my card.

All right, is everyone ready for a real challenge? Someone else suggested this a while back, and it was such a good idea that I wanted to see it happen:

Challenge #45: Unruin the Library
Make a card that gives a vanilla terminal +1 Card

Whenever anyone tries to buff a fan card by adding +1 Card, it's always pointed out what an awkward bonus this is. The prospect of drawing a single dead Action card is awful, and even if you have spare Actions, you don't actually increase your handsize, so it never feels good.

Your challenge is to make this fun! Basically, the first line of your card should be a vanilla "+1 Card" and there should not be any vanilla +Actions or +Villagers below it. Other vanilla bonuses, such as +$, are fine. Conditional +Cards, +Actions or +Villagers are allowed. Also, it should be played only in the Action Phase.
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Doom_Shark

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Re: Weekly Design Contest Thread
« Reply #3547 on: September 19, 2019, 07:04:18 pm »
+1

« Last Edit: September 20, 2019, 03:00:17 pm by Doom_Shark »
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Re: Weekly Design Contest Thread
« Reply #3548 on: September 19, 2019, 07:04:43 pm »
+4


Abbey
Type: Action - Reaction
Cost: $2

+1 Card
Trash up to two cards from your hand.
-
When another player plays an Attack card, you may first play this from your hand.
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NoMoreFun

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Re: Weekly Design Contest Thread
« Reply #3549 on: September 19, 2019, 07:39:24 pm »
0



Copier
Action - $3
+1 Card
You may discard a card. If it isn't a Victory card, gain a copy of it onto your deck

Edit: Changed to $3 to avoid runaway advantage in 5/2 openings
Edit 2: Changed wording slightly to allow combos with Tunnel.
« Last Edit: September 26, 2019, 06:43:33 pm by NoMoreFun »
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