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Author Topic: Weekly Design Contest Thread  (Read 135553 times)

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Commodore Chuckles

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Re: Weekly Design Contest Thread
« Reply #2325 on: June 07, 2019, 09:35:56 pm »
+2

Okay, I've changed Income Tax to make it easier to calculate and have more of an effect.

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Gazbag

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Re: Weekly Design Contest Thread
« Reply #2326 on: June 08, 2019, 10:10:06 am »
+3

As always, feedback is very welcome. Coming up with a new mechanic and several representative cards was a big swing for me, so I hope it's OK that I'm asking / discussing a lot. :)
I think it'd be a good idea to start a separate thread for these cards and then maybe choose one to submit for this contest? I think we should stick to one card per person unless the specific challenge allows more so that the number of cards doesn't become too overwhelming for the judge. Plus this way people could continue to discuss these after this challenge is over.
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majiponi

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Re: Weekly Design Contest Thread
« Reply #2327 on: June 08, 2019, 11:08:53 am »
+1

Poor Land
cost <6> - Victory
Worth 1vp per 3 Coppers you have (rounded down).
« Last Edit: June 08, 2019, 06:40:05 pm by majiponi »
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scolapasta

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Re: Weekly Design Contest Thread
« Reply #2328 on: June 08, 2019, 01:47:48 pm »
0

Because of tracking issues, Worshippers should specifically disallow in-play Duration cards. "...for each token removed, you may trash a card from your hand or a non-Duration card you have in play."

I modeled after Bonfire, which does not include the non-Duration cards. In a bgg thread, Donald wrote:

Quote
I didn't think of using Bonfire to cause tracking issues. It wasn't anything anyone ever did. I probably still wouldn't say "non-Duration" or something on Bonfire; again, making a card more complex for an exotic situation.

So for now, I'm happy leaving it in this simpler (and also more flexible) way. (From that thread, Procession, for example, leads to similar tracking issues)



I think it'd be a good idea to start a separate thread for these cards and then maybe choose one to submit for this contest? I think we should stick to one card per person unless the specific challenge allows more so that the number of cards doesn't become too overwhelming for the judge. Plus this way people could continue to discuss these after this challenge is over.

Starting a separate thread sounds like a good idea - I can do that [UPDATE: thread added]. Note that in my previous edit to the initial post, I had added this blurb:

Quote
My official entry for the contest is Apse Chapel, while the other cards can provide support for some strategies (e.g. Parish prefers Apse Chapel to Chapel for end game VPs) and are here to help demonstrate the mechanic.

So that's the card I expect to be judged for the challenge. Should I remove the other cards from the post or leave them in their current support / demonstration role?
« Last Edit: June 08, 2019, 02:23:36 pm by scolapasta »
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faust

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Re: Weekly Design Contest Thread
« Reply #2329 on: June 08, 2019, 04:54:25 pm »
0



Quote
Prayer
$4 - Action

Exchange this for a copy of a non-Victory card in the trash.

When you buy this, return it to the supply, and trash a card from the supply.

In games using this, when you trash a card, gain a Prayer.
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Kudasai

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Re: Weekly Design Contest Thread
« Reply #2330 on: June 08, 2019, 05:55:06 pm »
+1

CHALLENGE #32 - MAKE YOU SKIP CHAPEL SUBMISSION

Well this was a challenge indeed. Besting the quintessential broken card without being broken itself. Here's what I've come up with.



The idea is that this hits decks without Coppers and big engine decks with multiple gains a lot harder than any other type of deck, both of which are hallmark traits of Chapel decks. This is just a guess, but my hope is a non-Chapel deck can expect 6-12 more in VP tokens from Blasphemer versus a Chapel deck. Blasphemer itself also works well with trashing down, but at a much slower pace than Chapel as you'll likely want to keep some Coppers to not overshoot the pricepoints of cards.

Changes:
[v0.2] Cost from $6 to $5; now only cares about player to your left.
« Last Edit: June 09, 2019, 02:46:48 am by Kudasai »
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King Leon

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Re: Weekly Design Contest Thread
« Reply #2331 on: June 09, 2019, 07:32:19 am »
+1

My card submission Dowser gets another update. It is now a 5/5 split pile with a nasty Peddler variant which wants you to keep your Coppers. And it also makes it easier to draw further Dowsers, even if you have to discard a Victory card for this.



Pendulum
Type: Action
Cost: $2

+1 Card
+1 Action
Discard a card. If it’s a Treasure card: +$2.

Dowser
Type: Action
Cost: $4

+1 Action
Reveal the top 4 cards of your deck. Put the ones costing between $0 and $2 into your hand. Put the rest back on top in any order.
« Last Edit: June 09, 2019, 07:41:49 am by King Leon »
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anordinaryman

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Re: Weekly Design Contest Thread
« Reply #2332 on: June 09, 2019, 10:44:34 am »
0

There's two major ways to make you consider skipping chapel. Either make you not want to trash your cards (gardens, fountain, many of the submissions so far add penalties to trashing), or give a trasher that is strong enough that makes you not want chapel (donate, cathedral). I decided to go for the latter:



Chapel is very strong trashing but is weak since it provides no way to simultaneously build your deck. So, this card provides both! It's essentially a one-shot mega-copper trasher + remodeler that hands out debts based on how much of an upgrade/remodel/expansion you are doing. You can get burdened with debt, so you need to have a plan to get out of debt with the cards you gain, which makes it kingdom dependent. Sometimes you can get it instead of chapel, sometimes treasures are the only economy you want and Tithings won't work so well.

Clarifying examples:
  • From a hand of 3 coppers, I play 2 and buy and play this card. I trash both coppers in play and the copper in my hand. I would take 2 debt and gain an embargo. Each other player chooses to gain 0, 1, or 2 coppers to hand.
  • If my hand is 3 coppers and 3 estates, I could play 3 coppers, trashing them when I buy this, and turn an estate into a duchy. I would take 3 debt and each other player choose to gain 0, 1, 2, or 3 coppers to hand.
  • If you have no coppers in play, you trash a card and gain a card costing exactly the same amount. You could turn a chapel into a pearl diver, for $1 by buying this card.

The debt is what makes this only conditionally better than chapel. If there are good economy 4 and 5 costs that help you repay your debt, you're going to trash early and hard. If there aren't, you won't have as good of a way of handling the debt, and chapel (or even bonfire) might be better. That is why I forbid the treasure gaining. Otherwise 3/4 is always very powerful with turning an estate into a gold second turn and paying off the debt. The other player copper gaining cause is to weaken this a tad bit (so bonfire becomes more competitive with this) and to smoothen out the difference between 3/4 openings and 4/3. (The 3/4 player can pay off all their tithings debt on second turn and still do tithings again while the 4/3 player can't as much. The copper gaining lets both players have a 4/4 opening). This could have been an event, but then I had the annoying "take debt at the end of your turn" to prevent instant pay-off, and I did not like that. So, it became a one-shot night to easily deal with the debt problem.
« Last Edit: June 09, 2019, 10:27:52 pm by anordinaryman »
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faust

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Re: Weekly Design Contest Thread
« Reply #2333 on: June 09, 2019, 03:31:05 pm »
0

My card submission Dowser gets another update. It is now a 5/5 split pile with a nasty Peddler variant which wants you to keep your Coppers. And it also makes it easier to draw further Dowsers, even if you have to discard a Victory card for this.
I feel like Pendulum is easily stronger than Oasis. Other than that, the design looks good now, but I am not sure they still fit the challenge.
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anordinaryman

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Re: Weekly Design Contest Thread
« Reply #2334 on: June 09, 2019, 04:29:48 pm »
+2

My card submission Dowser gets another update. It is now a 5/5 split pile with a nasty Peddler variant which wants you to keep your Coppers. And it also makes it easier to draw further Dowsers, even if you have to discard a Victory card for this.
I feel like Pendulum is easily stronger than Oasis. Other than that, the design looks good now, but I am not sure they still fit the challenge.

It fits the challenge because it tries to make you skip trashing in general. You want a high-treasure density deck to make your pendulums fire, so it makes some sense to keep coppers around and skip Chapel. At least, that seems like the point here.

Each activated pendulum makes the next one you have in hand more difficult to activate, so it's weaker than it seems. You don't want too many. Oddly enough the fact that there are only 5 of them makes them stronger. I agree the cost of 2 is too low for Pendulum.

Dowser wants you to keep your estates and coppers, thus avoiding chapel. I really love the 2 cost of pendulum for Dowser. It's less elegant but I wonder if a 3-cost Pendulum with a Dowser that specifically calls out "0-2 cost or a Pendulum" would be better. I am unsure.

Dowser is strong enough to make you want to skip trashing, but it comes after 5 gains from the pile because it's a split-pile. That addressed the concerns of it being too strong in the first shuffle. I wonder what it would look like with 10 3 or 4 cost Pendulums that each had a "you may trash this to gain a Dowser" and Dowser is self-drawing (it could cost 2) and not in the supply. There could even be some conditions for triggering the Dowser gain ala urchin/mercernary. This would delay the Dowsers a bit so they aren't over-powered, which was some of the feedback it got the first time around.
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King Leon

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Re: Weekly Design Contest Thread
« Reply #2335 on: June 09, 2019, 05:05:07 pm »
0

I feel like Pendulum is easily stronger than Oasis.

It is more the other way around. Oasis is even useful with Victory cards like Estate, Province and most notable: Tunnel. Pendulum is more like a weaker Merchant. I wanted to have a $2 card and there are only 5 of it. Buying a Silver gives you more reliability than buying Pendulum. If you want to go for Dowser, Pendulum is in fact slightly better than Silver, but if you plan to go the Chapel way, Pendulum is a horrible card.
« Last Edit: June 09, 2019, 05:19:50 pm by King Leon »
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Awaclus

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Re: Weekly Design Contest Thread
« Reply #2336 on: June 09, 2019, 05:11:00 pm »
0

I feel like Pendulum is easily stronger than Oasis.

It is more the other way around. Oasis is even useful with Victory cards like Estate, Province and most notable: Tunnel. Pendulum is more like a weaker Merchant. I wanted to have a $2 card and there are only 5 of it. Buying a Silver gives you more reliability than buying Pendulum. If you want to go for Dowser, Pendulum is in fact slightly better than Silver, but if you plan to go the Chapel way, Pendulum is a horrible card.

Oasis is a Peddler if it connects with an Estate, Merchant is a Peddler if it connects with a Silver, Pendulum is a Peddler if it connects with a Copper. It takes a while before you have more Silvers or Estates than you do Coppers. Granted, one Silver is good enough even when you have multiple Merchants, but that doesn't stop Pendulum from being substantially easier to connect than Oasis and Oasis still being a stronger card than Merchant.
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King Leon

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Re: Weekly Design Contest Thread
« Reply #2337 on: June 09, 2019, 05:19:59 pm »
0

Talking about pricing: There is a reason that some cards like Chapel, Fool’s Gold, Border Guard, Peasant, Page and Moat come with the $2 price tag. If those cards costed $3, the player who starts 4-3 would have a big advantage over the 5-2 player. Keeping the ironic fact in mind, that Chapel is the second-best $2 card, I feel this is alright to let both cards compete.
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King Leon

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Re: Weekly Design Contest Thread
« Reply #2338 on: June 09, 2019, 06:02:21 pm »
+1

Thank you for your feedback. I had the idea with a not-in-Supply Dowser earlier, but it did not work really well to balance another card against it. I first tried to remove the +1 Action from Dowser and add a $4 Village, which turns into a $2 not-in-Supply terminal Dowser. That was a bad idea.

Now I tried to give Pendulum another nerf. You have to play a Copper, which makes reusing the same Copper in a golden deck setup impossible. Also, the draw now happens after playing the Copper and only if you play a Copper. This makes it slightly harder to connect Pendulum with Copper and effectively converts it into a Ruined Village (instead of an Estate/Silver sifter), if you have no Copper in your hand. Dowser stays as it is.

Pendulum
Type: Action
Cost: $2

+1 Action
You may play a Copper from your hand. If you do: +1 Card +$1

Clarification: You first play the Copper and get its +$1 (or more, if you have Coppersmith in play). Then you draw a card and get an additional +$1.

« Last Edit: June 09, 2019, 06:10:43 pm by King Leon »
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Commodore Chuckles

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Re: Weekly Design Contest Thread
« Reply #2339 on: June 09, 2019, 11:34:35 pm »
0

Talking about pricing: There is a reason that some cards like Chapel, Fool’s Gold, Border Guard, Peasant, Page and Moat come with the $2 price tag. If those cards costed $3, the player who starts 4-3 would have a big advantage over the 5-2 player. Keeping the ironic fact in mind, that Chapel is the second-best $2 card, I feel this is alright to let both cards compete.

I'm pretty sure Border Guard and Moat are $2 because that's what they're actually worth.
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King Leon

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Re: Weekly Design Contest Thread
« Reply #2340 on: June 10, 2019, 03:31:35 am »
0

Talking about pricing: There is a reason that some cards like Chapel, Fool’s Gold, Border Guard, Peasant, Page and Moat come with the $2 price tag. If those cards costed $3, the player who starts 4-3 would have a big advantage over the 5-2 player. Keeping the ironic fact in mind, that Chapel is the second-best $2 card, I feel this is alright to let both cards compete.

I'm pretty sure Border Guard and Moat are $2 because that's what they're actually worth.

Moat is a crucial card, when strong attacks like Sea Hag are in the kingdom. I agree, that it is much worse without attacks, but still worth $2 and even playable in Big Money. Border Guard is in fact a Lab variant, especially if you have many Victory cards (Gardens/Vineyard deck) or if you have many terminal Action cards. Getting Horn first, is a huge advantage, so the $2 price ensures, that everyone can get one.
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Awaclus

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Re: Weekly Design Contest Thread
« Reply #2341 on: June 10, 2019, 08:58:40 am »
+1

Moat is a crucial card, when strong attacks like Sea Hag are in the kingdom. I agree, that it is much worse without attacks, but still worth $2 and even playable in Big Money. Border Guard is in fact a Lab variant, especially if you have many Victory cards (Gardens/Vineyard deck) or if you have many terminal Action cards. Getting Horn first, is a huge advantage, so the $2 price ensures, that everyone can get one.

I'm not convinced that protecting yourself from a junking attack by spending your turns clogging up your deck with Moats is "crucial", it kind of reminds me of installing Avast antivirus to protect yourself from adware and spyware, only to have it spy on what you're doing and show you ads accordingly. Sea Hag isn't even that strong of a card in the first place. Sure, Moat/Big Money is better than BMU but I doubt it has ever been the best strategy in any kingdom. There's a reason why it's a bottom third $2 in the Qvist rankings.

Scout is also a Lab variant if you have many Victory cards, where "many" = half of your deck. Coincidentally, Border Guard also needs half of your deck to be Victory cards or other useless cards for it to be a "Lab variant", but even then it obviously isn't a Lab variant because the card goes into your discard pile and therefore gets shuffled back into your deck when you reshuffle. If you have so many terminal Action cards that you need Border Guard to shift through them, why did you even buy all those terminals in the first place? Oh right, to protect you against Sea Hag, I almost forgot. As with any other Artifact, getting Horn first is weaker than stealing it from your opponent, and you can't get it on your first reshuffle anyway so in that regard, it doesn't matter if you can open Border Guard or not.
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scolapasta

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Re: Weekly Design Contest Thread
« Reply #2342 on: June 10, 2019, 04:05:55 pm »
0

Should I remove the other cards from the post or leave them in their current support / demonstration role?

Answering my own question, but I went ahead and removed them from the initial post, so that only Worshipper tokens, as the new mechanic, and Apse Chapel are there.

(the other cards were moved to: scolapasta's cards. Feel free to join us there for discussion on them and other cards and/or if you have any ideas for new cards that use Worshippers)
« Last Edit: June 12, 2019, 11:52:12 am by scolapasta »
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wittyhowlard

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Re: Weekly Design Contest Thread
« Reply #2343 on: June 10, 2019, 05:02:07 pm »
0

Here's my submission to a Chapel competitor - Sustainable Living! Why bother with Chapelling cards when you could feel just as sanctimonious by reusing your pork rinds, reducing your taxes on the peasants, recycling your cycles; you get the idea...

Basically this card is both an early- and endgame card. The debt part allows this event to be more powerful than Bonfire and encourages early trashing. But the endgame is where this card shines as it will disrupt the usual province/duchy dance tempo. Sure, $20 is expensive to buy two provinces, but trashing $20 worth and gaining the last two in the pile? That could be a gamechanger.

Naturally, drawers and strategic gainers such a Artisan can help you reach that $20 in your hand. And how can you reduce your opponents' chances of hitting $20? Discard attacks and junkers hurt more than regular games.



Sustainable Living -
Event - $3 2D
-
(Once per turn)
Trash up to five cards in your hand. If their total cost is $20 or more, gain two provinces.
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Gubump

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Re: Weekly Design Contest Thread
« Reply #2344 on: June 10, 2019, 05:24:57 pm »
0

Here's my submission to a Chapel competitor - Sustainable Living! Why bother with Chapelling cards when you could feel just as sanctimonious by reusing your pork rinds, reducing your taxes on the peasants, recycling your cycles; you get the idea...

Basically this card is both an early- and endgame card. The debt part allows this event to be more powerful than Bonfire and encourages early trashing. But the endgame is where this card shines as it will disrupt the usual province/duchy dance tempo. Sure, $20 is expensive to buy two provinces, but trashing $20 worth and gaining the last two in the pile? That could be a gamechanger.

Naturally, drawers and strategic gainers such a Artisan can help you reach that $20 in your hand. And how can you reduce your opponents' chances of hitting $20? Discard attacks and junkers hurt more than regular games.



Sustainable Living -
Event - $3 2D
-
(Once per turn)
Trash up to five cards in your hand. If their total cost is $20 or more, gain two provinces.

I would argue that this would make Chapel even more desirable. Chapel will let you get cheap cards out of your deck more easily than this, since it's cheaper and you only need to buy it once. (Not to mention that you can't trash your Coppers if you need to play them to use the trasher.) Chapel can quickly remove the cheap cards from your deck so you can more easily use this event to gain Provinces quickly.
« Last Edit: June 10, 2019, 05:26:22 pm by Gubump »
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wittyhowlard

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Re: Weekly Design Contest Thread
« Reply #2345 on: June 10, 2019, 05:34:37 pm »
0




Sustainable Living -
Event - $3 2D
-
(Once per turn)
Trash up to five cards in your hand. If their total cost is $20 or more, gain two provinces.

I would argue that this would make Chapel even more desirable. Chapel will let you get cheap cards out of your deck more easily than this, since it's cheaper and you only need to buy it once. (Not to mention that you can't trash your Coppers if you need to play them to use the trasher.) Chapel can quickly remove the cheap cards from your deck so you can more easily use this event to gain Provinces quickly.

That's a fair point since Chapel helps you convert from low-cost to high-cost average cards. One particular use case I was thinking this is in a 4/3 opening where you buy a useful $4 card, then use Sustainable Living in the $3 turn on the two estates. By T3 you've already gotten rid of most of your estates, a leg up over Chapel.
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MeNowDealWithIt

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Re: Weekly Design Contest Thread
« Reply #2346 on: June 10, 2019, 08:44:47 pm »
0

Thanks for y'all's submissions. The final deadline for new entries will be Noon on June 11 Eastern Time.
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Re: Weekly Design Contest Thread
« Reply #2347 on: June 10, 2019, 08:48:21 pm »
+1

Reflection
Event - $8
Trash any number of Coppers from your hand. +3VP per Copper trashed this way.
« Last Edit: June 11, 2019, 04:36:59 am by NoMoreFun »
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Gubump

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Re: Weekly Design Contest Thread
« Reply #2348 on: June 10, 2019, 09:03:08 pm »
0

Reflection
Event - $10
Trash any number of Coppers from your hand. +3VP per Copper trashed this way.

I think it's going to be pretty rare to be able to trash any Coppers with this, unless you're either drawing your deck or in a Platinum/Colony game.
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segura

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Re: Weekly Design Contest Thread
« Reply #2349 on: June 11, 2019, 02:20:12 am »
0




Sustainable Living -
Event - $3 2D
-
(Once per turn)
Trash up to five cards in your hand. If their total cost is $20 or more, gain two provinces.

I would argue that this would make Chapel even more desirable. Chapel will let you get cheap cards out of your deck more easily than this, since it's cheaper and you only need to buy it once. (Not to mention that you can't trash your Coppers if you need to play them to use the trasher.) Chapel can quickly remove the cheap cards from your deck so you can more easily use this event to gain Provinces quickly.

That's a fair point since Chapel helps you convert from low-cost to high-cost average cards. One particular use case I was thinking this is in a 4/3 opening where you buy a useful $4 card, then use Sustainable Living in the $3 turn on the two estates. By T3 you've already gotten rid of most of your estates, a leg up over Chapel.
Indeed. It is basically a more expensive Bonfire for Estates and given how often one opens Bonfire, even in Kingdoms with trashers, this will often get bought.
Not sure whether it can compete with Chapel though.
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