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Author Topic: Weekly Design Contest Thread  (Read 58677 times)

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scolapasta

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Re: Weekly Design Contest Thread
« Reply #2300 on: June 06, 2019, 05:58:37 pm »
0

*Phase, not phrase.
Thanks, fixed.
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Chris is me

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Re: Weekly Design Contest Thread
« Reply #2301 on: June 06, 2019, 06:02:17 pm »
+3


Action - $4

+2 Cards
+1 Buy

----

When you gain or trash this, you may trash a card from your hand.

---


Basically Chapel is skippable when tempo is super important (think like a rush to a megaturn) and when you can trash while doing other things. Easiest way to do this would be Masquerade, Remake, etc. but those all already exist; "draw and trash" and "trash and gain" respectively.

Opening this / Silver gives you phenomenal odds of hitting $5 (need the sombrero to miss it). You can buy more copies to thin more, and if you have too many you can trash one with the other and still trash another card. For a board with lots of Highways or Bridge Trolls or other hyper explosive payload, you can probably skip Chapel.

With trashing, +2 Cards terminal draw is better than its given credit for, and of course the +Buy makes it easier to buy more.
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naitchman

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Re: Weekly Design Contest Thread
« Reply #2302 on: June 06, 2019, 06:04:18 pm »
+1

Made an update to my card (see original post for explanation)
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Kudasai

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Re: Weekly Design Contest Thread
« Reply #2303 on: June 06, 2019, 06:06:52 pm »
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No entry is going to be able to make Chapel completely nonviable without violating the 2nd part of this contest, "don't completely break the game".

What about Donate? I feel like if it didn't exist, and someone submitted it as an entry for this challenge, people would accuse it of completely breaking the game. And maybe it does completely break the game.. at least in the same way that Chapel completely broke the game in the base set. As in, games that have that card available force you to play differently because it's available.

Good point. Barring things that offer superior trashing to Chapel and things that alter trashing within the game, I stand by my original statement. But, I do enjoy being proved wrong. Can anyone think of any such official things?

My entry is very much a WORK IN PROGRESS. But I want to post the mechanic and first 3 cards, in case the idea needs significant re-work. FEEDBACK IS VERY WELCOME!


First, we had Coffers, tokens used in your Buy Phase; then Villagers, tokens used your Action phase. Now we have, Worshippers, a new type of token that you can use during your Clean up phase:



Quote
During your Clean up phase, you may remove tokens from here: for each token removed, you may trash a card instead of discarding it

And a few simple cards that implement this new mechanic, Apse Chapel, Archbishop, Parish:



Changelog:
v0.1 Worshippers, Apse Chapel, Archbishop, Parish - initial

FAQ:
If you put cards in your hand during your Clean-up phase, they still then get discarded. e.g if you use a Worshipper on Fortress, you would trash it, put it in your hand, then discard it.*

(*) if this doesn't seem intuitive, I could change the rule to "At the start of your Clean-up phase, before you discard anything, remove tokens from here: for each token removed, you may trash a card from your hand or from play." The current wording feels simpler.

Secret History:
Once I got the idea for the new token, my first idea was a Chapel variant. I then tried to think of names with religious connotations: Archbishop should obviously be a "Grand" Bishop, and Parish a Victory card.
I considered having Worshippers trash from just your hand or just in play. But I think I prefer trashing either, as long as I balance out the cost on cards that give you Worshippers.
For Parish, I wanted (still want!) something more creative (VPs based on Worshippers?).
I have a couple of other names for cards that are not variants of existing cards; currently working on what they'll do and will add them soon.


Whether or not this will make you want to skip Chapel, would depend on which of these cards are in your Kingdom. For that, Apse Chapel is clearly the best option.

If the mechanic is interesting, please provide feedback on any tweaks that could be made to the the individual cards. Thanks!

Really cool concept. I was tinkering with something similar, but I was going more for general discarding (during and not during the Clean-up phase). It never  felt balanced though. Tokens seem like a great solution! Do you think having these work with discarding during any phase would work? Make those meh Oasis' into super-charged Junk Dealers!
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scolapasta

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Re: Weekly Design Contest Thread
« Reply #2304 on: June 06, 2019, 07:04:07 pm »
+1

Really cool concept. I was tinkering with something similar, but I was going more for general discarding (during and not during the Clean-up phase). It never  felt balanced though. Tokens seem like a great solution! Do you think having these work with discarding during any phase would work? Make those meh Oasis' into super-charged Junk Dealers!

Thanks.
It could possibly work during other phases, but I liked the idea of one token for phase (at least until I introduce "Shoppers" :).

And I think it would break one of the other cards I'll be adding shortly.
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scolapasta

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Re: Weekly Design Contest Thread
« Reply #2305 on: June 06, 2019, 07:24:23 pm »
0

And I think it would break one of the other cards I'll be adding shortly.

Here's the first version of that card:



(if you could play Worshippers whenever you discarded, then you would be able to play Worshippers in your Action phase, trash cards, and get back that Worshippers with this)

Is balanced for this? or would be better?
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King Leon

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Re: Weekly Design Contest Thread
« Reply #2306 on: June 06, 2019, 07:35:06 pm »
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And I think it would break one of the other cards I'll be adding shortly.

Here's the first version of that card:



(if you could play Worshippers whenever you discarded, then you would be able to play Worshippers in your Action phase, trash cards, and get back that Worshippers with this)

Is balanced for this? or would be better?

This card is pretty useless, because it requires you to already have a trasher. Why would you want to have two different trashers in your deck?
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scolapasta

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Re: Weekly Design Contest Thread
« Reply #2307 on: June 06, 2019, 07:43:57 pm »
+1

This card is pretty useless, because it requires you to already have a trasher. Why would you want to have two different trashers in your deck?

Yes, it requires another trasher, but so does the card it was modeled after: Sewers (hence Undercroft, being underneath a church).

Sewers, being a Project, is better in that it plays every turn and is not part of your deck; this, on the other hand, allows you first to play the card (so get + before you trash that copper), and can be saved for another turn instead.

Those differences are why I was wondering if it is fine at or better at .

I could also have it trash a card first and raise the price.
« Last Edit: June 06, 2019, 10:28:35 pm by scolapasta »
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Commodore Chuckles

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Re: Weekly Design Contest Thread
« Reply #2308 on: June 06, 2019, 08:17:02 pm »
0

(*) if this doesn't seem intuitive, I could change the rule to "At the start of your Clean-up phase, before you discard anything, remove tokens from here: for each token removed, you may trash a card from your hand or from play." The current wording feels simpler.

I feel that this wording would be necessary. "Trash a card" is ambiguous; no official card says this without specifying the "from".
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scolapasta

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Re: Weekly Design Contest Thread
« Reply #2309 on: June 06, 2019, 10:37:19 pm »
0

(*) if this doesn't seem intuitive, I could change the rule to "At the start of your Clean-up phase, before you discard anything, remove tokens from here: for each token removed, you may trash a card from your hand or from play." The current wording feels simpler.

I feel that this wording would be necessary. "Trash a card" is ambiguous; no official card says this without specifying the "from".

Do you think the "before you discard anything" is necessary? Or is that implied by the "start of your Clean-up phase"?
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hhelibebcnofnena

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Re: Weekly Design Contest Thread
« Reply #2310 on: June 06, 2019, 10:44:01 pm »
0

(*) if this doesn't seem intuitive, I could change the rule to "At the start of your Clean-up phase, before you discard anything, remove tokens from here: for each token removed, you may trash a card from your hand or from play." The current wording feels simpler.

I feel that this wording would be necessary. "Trash a card" is ambiguous; no official card says this without specifying the "from".

Do you think the "before you discard anything" is necessary? Or is that implied by the "start of your Clean-up phase"?

It's implied.
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Gubump

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Re: Weekly Design Contest Thread
« Reply #2311 on: June 07, 2019, 12:01:24 am »
0


Action - $4

+2 Cards
+1 Buy

----

When you gain or trash this, you may trash a card from your hand.

---


Basically Chapel is skippable when tempo is super important (think like a rush to a megaturn) and when you can trash while doing other things. Easiest way to do this would be Masquerade, Remake, etc. but those all already exist; "draw and trash" and "trash and gain" respectively.

Opening this / Silver gives you phenomenal odds of hitting $5 (need the sombrero to miss it). You can buy more copies to thin more, and if you have too many you can trash one with the other and still trash another card. For a board with lots of Highways or Bridge Trolls or other hyper explosive payload, you can probably skip Chapel.

With trashing, +2 Cards terminal draw is better than its given credit for, and of course the +Buy makes it easier to buy more.

Since you don't seem to have a name for it, I suggest Cloister.
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segura

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Re: Weekly Design Contest Thread
« Reply #2312 on: June 07, 2019, 12:59:48 am »
0

(*) if this doesn't seem intuitive, I could change the rule to "At the start of your Clean-up phase, before you discard anything, remove tokens from here: for each token removed, you may trash a card from your hand or from play." The current wording feels simpler.

I feel that this wording would be necessary. "Trash a card" is ambiguous; no official card says this without specifying the "from".

Do you think the "before you discard anything" is necessary? Or is that implied by the "start of your Clean-up phase"?
If you want to prevent confusion, you can use "at the end of your Buy phase" as it is more or less the same window as the start of Clean-up.
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segura

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Re: Weekly Design Contest Thread
« Reply #2313 on: June 07, 2019, 01:02:55 am »
0

And here comes my submission. (The separate post is intended, because this one is unrelated to the previous.)



Dowser
Type: Action
Cost: $4*

+1 Action
Reveal the top 4 cards of your deck. Put the ones costing $2 or less into your hand. Discard the rest.
-
During your Action phase, this costs $2 less, but not less than $0.
I'd stick with the original version as the self-synergy is neat but add a clause that makes the pile appear after the first shuffle. Might feel a a bit wonky and two horizontal lines are never visually nice but I think that it is the most simple solution that prevents a scripted opening.
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segura

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Re: Weekly Design Contest Thread
« Reply #2314 on: June 07, 2019, 01:30:40 am »
+1



The inverse of Tomb and thus a bit lame.
It also inverts the you get via cards that trash from the Supply like Lurker.
Tomb makes trashing attacks weaker whereas this is neutral about them.
1 per card might not be enough to prevent you from thinning, hence the 2 .
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Gazbag

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Re: Weekly Design Contest Thread
« Reply #2315 on: June 07, 2019, 05:54:53 am »
+1


I'm not super happy with this to be honest.
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hhelibebcnofnena

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Re: Weekly Design Contest Thread
« Reply #2316 on: June 07, 2019, 11:12:30 am »
+1

(*) if this doesn't seem intuitive, I could change the rule to "At the start of your Clean-up phase, before you discard anything, remove tokens from here: for each token removed, you may trash a card from your hand or from play." The current wording feels simpler.

I feel that this wording would be necessary. "Trash a card" is ambiguous; no official card says this without specifying the "from".

Do you think the "before you discard anything" is necessary? Or is that implied by the "start of your Clean-up phase"?
If you want to prevent confusion, you can use "at the end of your Buy phase" as it is more or less the same window as the start of Clean-up.

Not with night.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Weekly Design Contest Thread
« Reply #2317 on: June 07, 2019, 11:15:05 am »
0

(*) if this doesn't seem intuitive, I could change the rule to "At the start of your Clean-up phase, before you discard anything, remove tokens from here: for each token removed, you may trash a card from your hand or from play." The current wording feels simpler.

I feel that this wording would be necessary. "Trash a card" is ambiguous; no official card says this without specifying the "from".

Do you think the "before you discard anything" is necessary? Or is that implied by the "start of your Clean-up phase"?
If you want to prevent confusion, you can use "at the end of your Buy phase" as it is more or less the same window as the start of Clean-up.

Not with night.

I don't think "at the start of cleanup" is ambiguous at all. First edition Scheme used it; and it seems obvious that you can't discard any cards for cleanup until after "start of cleanup" has passed.
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Re: Weekly Design Contest Thread
« Reply #2318 on: June 07, 2019, 11:23:05 am »
0

(*) if this doesn't seem intuitive, I could change the rule to "At the start of your Clean-up phase, before you discard anything, remove tokens from here: for each token removed, you may trash a card from your hand or from play." The current wording feels simpler.

I feel that this wording would be necessary. "Trash a card" is ambiguous; no official card says this without specifying the "from".

Do you think the "before you discard anything" is necessary? Or is that implied by the "start of your Clean-up phase"?
If you want to prevent confusion, you can use "at the end of your Buy phase" as it is more or less the same window as the start of Clean-up.

Not with night.
This only matters for Undercroft. If you want to be able to use the Worshippers you gained via Undercroft in that very turn I'd make more sense to do Undercroft as Treasure.
The phrase "during Clean-up" is anything but clear. Before you discard everything or after you drew a new hand makes sense. But what if you use a Worshipper to trash a card while drawing a new hand? Will you draw a substitute card for that or not?
I think that one should not do timing windows in the Clean-up if it is avoidable (Scheme obviously cannot work any other way). Normally the next player is starting their turn while you are cleaning up. So better put that decision at the end of the Buy phase, like Wine Merchant.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Weekly Design Contest Thread
« Reply #2319 on: June 07, 2019, 11:28:32 am »
0

(*) if this doesn't seem intuitive, I could change the rule to "At the start of your Clean-up phase, before you discard anything, remove tokens from here: for each token removed, you may trash a card from your hand or from play." The current wording feels simpler.

I feel that this wording would be necessary. "Trash a card" is ambiguous; no official card says this without specifying the "from".

Do you think the "before you discard anything" is necessary? Or is that implied by the "start of your Clean-up phase"?
If you want to prevent confusion, you can use "at the end of your Buy phase" as it is more or less the same window as the start of Clean-up.

Not with night.
This only matters for Undercroft. If you want to be able to use the Worshippers you gained via Undercroft in that very turn I'd make more sense to do Undercroft as Treasure.
The phrase "during Clean-up" is anything but clear. Before you discard everything or after you drew a new hand makes sense. But what if you use a Worshipper to trash a card while drawing a new hand? Will you draw a substitute card for that or not?
I think that one should not do timing windows in the Clean-up if it is avoidable (Scheme obviously cannot work any other way). Normally the next player is starting their turn while you are cleaning up. So better put that decision at the end of the Buy phase, like Wine Merchant.

The possible wording that let you trash a card from your hand went with "at the start of cleanup". The possible wording that was "during cleanup" didn't let you trash a card from your hand, it only let you trash a card instead of discarding it. It was never suggested to let you trash a card from your hand "during cleanup".
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Re: Weekly Design Contest Thread
« Reply #2320 on: June 07, 2019, 11:34:26 am »
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The possible wording that let you trash a card from your hand went with "at the start of cleanup". The possible wording that was "during cleanup" didn't let you trash a card from your hand, it only let you trash a card instead of discarding it. It was never suggested to let you trash a card from your hand "during cleanup".
On the one hand it is my mistake that I did not notice this detail, on the other hand such confusion arises naturally when you do stuff in the Clean-up phase.
Hence my suggestion to put the window at a moment where no such rule confusions could arise, like the end of the Buy phase. Or, Ratcatcher style, at the start of the turn if one wants a nerfed version of Worshippers.
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Re: Weekly Design Contest Thread
« Reply #2321 on: June 07, 2019, 12:23:46 pm »
+1

I think "at the start of cleanup" is probably the best way to go with this one. It doesn't seem ambiguous at all to me, any more than "at the start of your turn".
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scolapasta

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Re: Weekly Design Contest Thread
« Reply #2322 on: June 07, 2019, 12:34:19 pm »
0

I think "at the start of cleanup" is probably the best way to go with this one. It doesn't seem ambiguous at all to me, any more than "at the start of your turn".

Agreed. Am updating it shortly, plus making changes (some small, some big) to the other cards.
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scolapasta

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Re: Weekly Design Contest Thread
« Reply #2323 on: June 07, 2019, 03:09:47 pm »
+1

OK, based on feedback and some of my own deliberations, I've updated my initial post. Here are the changes, so you don't have to go find it, plus some background reasoning:





Quote
At the start of your Clean-up phase, remove tokens from here: for each token removed, you may trash a card from your hand or one you have in play.

Worshippers: changed the rule (and the mat) to "At the start of your Clean-up phase" because that seemed more clear to everyone. It felt important to keep it after the Night phase for Undercroft (which got rebranded as Cloister).



Before I show the updated cards, I will say, I am very happy with the mechanic and the general idea behind each of the cards. That said, it's hard for me to really know how valuable the difference between a Worshipper and just trashing a card is.

The benefits are:
you can play a Copper (or other card) on the same turn that you trash it
you can hold on to the trashing if you don't have anything current to trash
the corollary to that is you can stock up on Worshippers as a defense to gaining Junk
a trasher like Apse Chapel can effectively trash itself, when you're done with it

So while I can tweak things here and there, to get a real understanding requires some extensive play testing. Here's hoping my guesses are reasonable.



The updated cards:



Apse Chapel: No change. I keep going back and forth on whether this should be +2 or +3 Worshippers. While I think +3 has a better chance of locking in the "skip Chapel" vote, it feels too strong. But as I said above, this can only really be figured out with some real play testing. In lieu of that, please let me know: is +2 Worshippers enough for you to consider skipping Chapel? Or does it need +3? (and if so, what should I price it at?)

Parish: the original was just boring and really just a token Victory card (no pun intended). This new version is more interesting (and thematically better - the more Worshippers you have, the more valuable your Parishes), but it could also well be broken. If so, help me fix it! (higher cost? more worshippers per VP? or is the idea generally broken?)

Cloister (formerly Undercroft): a good point was made that it requires another trasher, so I solved it by having it trash as an Action. Thematically, Undercroft didn't seem to work anymore but I had been working separately on a Cloister, and this seemed to fit - you go to the Cloister during the day to meditate (i.e. trash cards), or clandestinely meet at night to gather future Worshippers. I considering pricing this at $3, enabling a double Cloister open, but $4 seemed more balanced.

Archbishop: Small change. I was incorrectly comparing to Bishop at $5. When I realized it was only $4, this needed to be a little stronger, in order to qualify as "Grand".



As always, feedback is very welcome. Coming up with a new mechanic and several representative cards was a big swing for me, so I hope it's OK that I'm asking / discussing a lot. :)
« Last Edit: June 07, 2019, 04:32:30 pm by scolapasta »
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Re: Weekly Design Contest Thread
« Reply #2324 on: June 07, 2019, 04:31:05 pm »
0


Because of tracking issues, Worshippers should specifically disallow in-play Duration cards. "...for each token removed, you may trash a card from your hand or a non-Duration card you have in play."
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