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Author Topic: Weekly Design Contest Thread  (Read 380694 times)

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majiponi

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Re: Weekly Design Contest Thread
« Reply #4225 on: December 07, 2019, 09:21:01 am »
0

Jedi
cost $3 - Action - Attack
+1 Action
Each other player reveals their hand.
Choose one: Draw until you have 6 cards in hand; or each other player discards their hand and draws 5 cards.
---
When another player plays a Jedi, you may reveal this from your hand, to be unaffected by that Jedi.
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Something_Smart

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Re: Weekly Design Contest Thread
« Reply #4226 on: December 07, 2019, 09:53:41 am »
0

Storeroom
$2
Action
+1 Action
Gain a Storeroom. Do this twice: +2 Cards, then discard 2 cards.

Tried to make it simple. Basically, it offers some nice sifting search space, but do you really want more copies of it? Worse comes to worst though, it can sift through other copies of itself.
Storeroom is already an official card jsyk, and also this looks a lot like Dungeon (except for the self-gaining).
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segura

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Re: Weekly Design Contest Thread
« Reply #4227 on: December 08, 2019, 07:05:37 am »
+1

Storeroom
$2
Action
+1 Action
Gain a Storeroom. Do this twice: +2 Cards, then discard 2 cards.

Tried to make it simple. Basically, it offers some nice sifting search space, but do you really want more copies of it? Worse comes to worst though, it can sift through other copies of itself.
I don't like this. The play effect looks like a slightly stronger version of Warehouse/Dungeon (although Dungeon's second sifting happening at the srat of the turn is neat for consistency so it is arguable which is better) but the self-spamming is simply nasty. You can easily end up with all Storerooms if the other players forsake it and all that the sifting will achieve is reduce your handsize.
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popsofctown

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Re: Weekly Design Contest Thread
« Reply #4228 on: December 09, 2019, 12:11:39 pm »
+1

C'mon, Storeroom is hilarious, it's close to Rats.  The numbers might not be right but conceptually look how similar it is to DXV's favorite card and his fans' least favorite card

I am trying to count out in my head how often draw 2 discard 2 twice is different from draw four, discard four.  It seems like you can only discard something different on the first 2 if you didn't know there was something even badder you'd be drawing later that you'd need to discard... but you're going to have to discard 2 more at that point... therefore it's the same?  Except when you do stuff like "I'm going to discard all but one Village" and the obscured information matters, but it seems too niche to be worth the wording nuance.

I'm skeptical this is actually brokenly bad rather than brokenly good.  If you play one of these you look at 8 other cards and discard half of them.  So you'll be stuck doing no sifting besides discarding Storerooms themselves if half your deck (a little over half, actually, the card you just played is a storeroom) is storerooms.  You'll very rarely be cornered into playing two of these per turn, so even if you play one every turn and buy a Silver/Gold every turn your deck will stay half Silver/Gold, +starting cards.

It's probably optimal to delay the purchase until your deck is more heterogenous, the other sifters are mostly like that too.

After this is renamed to "Rat Cellar" it probably gets the stacksize of forty along with whatever other changes it needs.

I think conceptually it's a good card, probably both in gameplay and sadistic sense of humor, but bare baseline minimum sadistic sense of humor.
« Last Edit: December 09, 2019, 12:12:53 pm by popsofctown »
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Something_Smart

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Re: Weekly Design Contest Thread
« Reply #4229 on: December 09, 2019, 01:40:24 pm »
+1

I think Rats just does the sadistic part better. (Fwiw I hate Rats but my brother loves them. He's far more of an evil person than me so probably not a coincidence.)

I think you're right about draw 2, discard 2, draw 2, discard 2 being only negligibly different from draw 4, discard 4. That makes it a cheaper, better Warehouse that you can't get in moderation. I suspect it's very strong with nonterminal handsize-increasers such as Cursed Village, Diplomat, Lab, and Seer. Tunnel is bound to be nuts, Faithful Hound is also probably nuts. Pathfinding turns it into a jacked-up Forum.

In the absence of these cards, it's probably only useful in slog games where you have tons of junk (I would certainly pick one up in a Workshop/Gardens game for instance).

And I don't think it differentiates itself from the other sifters, especially Warehouse and Dungeon, because the self-gaining is a pain in the ass and only limits the situations where you want it (and the difference between $2 and $3 is so small it's not like the cheaper price really matters usually).
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Kudasai

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Re: Weekly Design Contest Thread
« Reply #4230 on: December 09, 2019, 02:01:47 pm »
+3

CHALLENGE #54 - THE SWEETEST SOUND SUBMISSION



Essentially an Action Silver that can stack and play off of each other to give a village effect. Playing a Bivouac with a Bivouac doesn't use an Action so you end up with an extra one. This also can top deck itself so lining them up will eventually happen (no luck factor there).

Sounds a bit strong, but the forced topdecking might hurt more than it helps. Having 2 Bivouacs will essentially mean you start each turn with +$4 and +2 Actions, but at the cost of drawing 2 less cards. I can't tell if this is balanced. Thoughts are always appreciated!


Bivouac - Action - $5
+1 Action
+$2
You may play a Bivouac from your hand. At the start of Clean-up this turn, if you have 3 or more Bivouacs in play, discard them all. Otherwise, put them all onto your deck.
« Last Edit: December 09, 2019, 02:06:11 pm by Kudasai »
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mad4math

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Re: Weekly Design Contest Thread
« Reply #4231 on: December 09, 2019, 02:50:33 pm »
+2

I think the topdecking helps, since you want a village at the start of your turn to go off.

I actually think it is weak. Compare to festival, which is like a always-village bivuoac but with an additional +buy, and isn't too strong of a $5. The topdecking is a small benefit, but not worth the fact that these are only half-villages and lose the +buy.

CHALLENGE #54 - THE SWEETEST SOUND SUBMISSION

Essentially an Action Silver that can stack and play off of each other to give a village effect. Playing a Bivouac with a Bivouac doesn't use an Action so you end up with an extra one. This also can top deck itself so lining them up will eventually happen (no luck factor there).

Sounds a bit strong, but the forced topdecking might hurt more than it helps. Having 2 Bivouacs will essentially mean you start each turn with +$4 and +2 Actions, but at the cost of drawing 2 less cards. I can't tell if this is balanced. Thoughts are always appreciated!


Bivouac - Action - $5
+1 Action
+$2
You may play a Bivouac from your hand. At the start of Clean-up this turn, if you have 3 or more Bivouacs in play, discard them all. Otherwise, put them all onto your deck.
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Something_Smart

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Re: Weekly Design Contest Thread
« Reply #4232 on: December 09, 2019, 04:34:05 pm »
+2

I would recommend you get rid of the "discard them all" clause (and just say "if you have no more than 2 Bivouacs in play, put them all onto your deck"); I don't think it affects functionality except that it creates weird edge cases like preventing you from topdecking it with Scheme and allowing Walled Village to be topdecked.
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segura

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Re: Weekly Design Contest Thread
« Reply #4233 on: December 10, 2019, 10:11:19 am »
0

I'm skeptical this is actually brokenly bad rather than brokenly good.
Storeroom, without the Rat-style propagation is very similar to Dungeon. We can debate all day long about whether the start of the turn consistency that Dungeon provides is weaker or stronger than the non-Duration, do-it-all-now aspect of Storeroom. But it is obvious that they are similar in strength.

But it seems crystal clear to me that the price difference of $1 cannot even nearly compensate for the self-junking of Storeroom.

I also don't see the comparison with Rats. Sure, they both propagate but Rats has a $5 (4-5 is far huger than 2-3) play effect and an on-trash effect that you ALWAYS (there is no way Rats is viable without other trashers) use whereas Storeroom provides no bonus when you get rid of them (and is also less suited for trash for benefit due to the low price).
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popsofctown

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Re: Weekly Design Contest Thread
« Reply #4234 on: December 10, 2019, 12:29:37 pm »
+1

It's not self junking, the card you're forced to gain is the kind of card you'd willingly buy when six provinces are remaining in a Dominion game.  +1 card, +1 Action, trash from hand isn't a card you would buy at that phase of the game, that's a card you'd only buy early on, which is what gives the Rats too long to propogate.

The coin cost doesn't matter, I'd buy this at 4$ in some games around when six Provinces are remaining, the way I'd excitedly buy a "Port but the villages are warehouse" for 4$. If you draw two copies of them together the quality is exactly the same as Warehouse.
3 is ok, there is no direct existing dominion analogue but I'd guess it's similar to the average power of Cellar.
If you draw 4 or 5 you bought the card too early. 

"Brokenly good" was definitely hyperbole, I was just excited.  Sometimes Warehouse gets skipped and therefore often this would get skipped, just like Port doesn't have a huge impact on whether you decide it's an engine game or not.  But I think the card is strong in an exciting way.  Hitting 10$ and buying a "Storeroom" and a Province seems really strong.
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segura

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Re: Weekly Design Contest Thread
« Reply #4235 on: December 10, 2019, 12:56:29 pm »
+1

It's not self junking
Tell that to the player who has 10 or 20 Storerooms in his deck because he opened with it.

Quote
the kind of card you'd willingly buy when six provinces are remaining in a Dominion game.
I agree, the card is only a good purchase around the time everybody starts to green.
Which makes it narrower and weaker than Cellar, Warehouse and Dungeon, i.e. sifters that are decent during all phases of the game.

Quote
If you draw two copies of them together the quality is exactly the same as Warehouse.
No, not at all. Warehouse has less sifting depth. 2 Storerooms have more sifting depth but reduce the handsize by one. Being a Lab or being an anti-Lab kinda matters. A lot. For example if Rats did not have the on-trash Lab effect it would suck.

Quote
Sometimes Warehouse gets skipped and therefore often this would get skipped
Again, Warehouse is flexible and good during all phases of the game whereas Storeroom can only be gained late in the game to keep the self-junking at bay.
I like narrow cards but not when they play strategically identically in all Kingdoms.

Quote
just like Port doesn't have a huge impact on whether you decide it's an engine game or not.
Huh? Port is one of the strongest villages so its presence or absence does very much determine whether a Kingdom enables an engine or not.

Quote
But I think the card is strong in an exciting way.  Hitting 10$ and buying a "Storeroom" and a Province seems really strong.
This is simply not the case; the card is weak if it can be only used in the endgame. Warehouse and Dungeon are often good openers as cycling accelerates your build-up and during the middlegame you increase the matching chances of your engine pieces.
I agree that cycling through green during the endgame is an important job of sifters but your notion that it is the main or only job is dubious.
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popsofctown

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Re: Weekly Design Contest Thread
« Reply #4236 on: December 10, 2019, 04:38:34 pm »
0

Quote
If you draw two copies of them together the quality is exactly the same as Warehouse.
No, not at all. Warehouse has less sifting depth. 2 Storerooms have more sifting depth but reduce the handsize by one. Being a Lab or being an anti-Lab kinda matters. A lot. For example if Rats did not have the on-trash Lab effect it would suck.

You surprise me here.
You're shuffling your deck a hand of cards for the Fleet turn of a game of Dominion.  I offer to gain either two Warehouses on top of the deck before you draw your five, or one Dungeon.  You pick the Dungeon?
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segura

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Re: Weekly Design Contest Thread
« Reply #4237 on: December 10, 2019, 05:28:17 pm »
0

Quote
If you draw two copies of them together the quality is exactly the same as Warehouse.
No, not at all. Warehouse has less sifting depth. 2 Storerooms have more sifting depth but reduce the handsize by one. Being a Lab or being an anti-Lab kinda matters. A lot. For example if Rats did not have the on-trash Lab effect it would suck.

You surprise me here.
You're shuffling your deck a hand of cards for the Fleet turn of a game of Dominion.  I offer to gain either two Warehouses on top of the deck before you draw your five, or one Dungeon.  You pick the Dungeon?
Doesn't matter. Two Storerooms are simply not the same as one Warehouse. That's a fact, not an opinion.
Once we agree that the world is not flat we can talk about which is preferable in which situation (but no, I can already tell you that a larger sifting depth is not always better than the cost of a larger handsize reduction; Dominion ain't that trivial/simple/Kingdom-insensitive).
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popsofctown

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Re: Weekly Design Contest Thread
« Reply #4238 on: December 11, 2019, 03:24:36 am »
0

You answered incorrectly, it is correct to put the two Warehouses on top 100% of the time in the situation I explained (occasionally it is a tie if your deck is all silver, but in a deck that is some generic heterogenous mix of Silver, Gold, and Copper, it is not a tie, and in a deck that is a generic heterogenous mix of a Smithy Village (woodcutter?) Engine it is not a tie.)

This is kingdom insensitive, it requires a strange puzzle solution for topdecking the Dungeon to be correct, something as forced as Menagerie being part of your deck's design, or being trashed down to seven cards, or wanting Courtier to hit Dungeon before you play it.

You are failing to consider that you are being offered the opportunity to discard one Warehouse to the other and accept a 4 card hand, the same four card hand that is your only choice when you choose the Dungeon.  However, if after drawing three but before discarding, you realize that you cannot hit the pricepoint you desire unless you "go big or go home" and hit some golds, you have the option to go after that three card hand.  But the four card hand is always available to you.
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segura

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Re: Weekly Design Contest Thread
« Reply #4239 on: December 11, 2019, 07:22:21 am »
0

You answered incorrectly
Nope. I did not answer your question at all because it is so particular that it is irrelevant (and your "2 Storerooms = 1 Warehouse" compairson is like saying that 2 Pearl Divers in hand > 1 Laboratory in hand so hurrah, Pearl Diver is brilliant; you cannot make such nonsensical comparisons in which the very liability of a card, sifting at the cost of handsize reduction is not only ignored but inverted) .
Of course Storeroom is fine for the endgame. You don't have to convince me of that, it is the only point we agree on.

If you ignore that a card is a bad opening and middlegame purchase and only rave about how brilliant it is for discarding green during the last turn of the game, well, such a kind of narrow analysis naturally leads to a totally wrong evaluation.

Back to Storeroom in general: I don't think that a self-junking sifter is per se a bad idea. But it needs something extra, like Rats not just being a cantrip trasher but also a Lab on-trash (and an interesting price point for TfB) to make the entire idea viable.
« Last Edit: December 11, 2019, 07:23:25 am by segura »
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anordinaryman

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Re: Weekly Design Contest Thread
« Reply #4240 on: December 11, 2019, 08:28:32 am »
+2

As a note, in order to win the contest, a card needs to be designed such that players could actually use it when playing the game. As it is right now, the fan submission "storeroom" by [TP] Inferno conflicts with the Dark Ages storeroom, so it should have a name change. To allow people to play with all previous and winners, I'd rather you not use names of previous winners or runner-ups. To that end, I'd like to remind @Grep know that "Rabbits" was the name of a previous runner up in contest 45 (plural is hardly a difference), so I hope you feel comforting using a new name.

The back and forth between pops and segura is feeling slightly little more combative than helpful. Of course this has absolutely no bearing on my judging, I just wanted to give a moment of reflection of whether each of you think the conversation is worth continuing in this thread. Of course, totally your choice!
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segura

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Re: Weekly Design Contest Thread
« Reply #4241 on: December 11, 2019, 08:35:46 am »
0

As a note, in order to win the contest, a card needs to be designed such that players could actually use it when playing the game. As it is right now, the fan submission "storeroom" by [TP] Inferno conflicts with the Dark Ages storeroom, so it should have a name change. To allow people to play with all previous and winners, I'd rather you not use names of previous winners or runner-ups. To that end, I'd like to remind @Grep know that "Rabbits" was the name of a previous runner up in contest 45 (plural is hardly a difference), so I hope you feel comforting using a new name.

The back and forth between pops and segura is feeling slightly little more combative than helpful. Of course this has absolutely no bearing on my judging, I just wanted to give a moment of reflection of whether each of you think the conversation is worth continuing in this thread. Of course, totally your choice!
Sorry, I did not want to derail the thread. I hope that [TP] Inferno can nonetheless use something from this discussion about the pros and cons of his card.
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spineflu

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Re: Weekly Design Contest Thread
« Reply #4242 on: December 11, 2019, 08:57:40 am »
0

@anordinaryman is that the 24 hour warning?

To allow people to play with all previous and winners, I'd rather you not use names of previous winners or runner-ups. To that end, I'd like to remind @Grep know that "Rabbits" was the name of a previous runner up in contest 45 (plural is hardly a difference), so I hope you feel comforting using a new name.

This is good praxis but also we've had two different Cozeners win (challenges 23 + 52), Rabbits was a pretty well known fan card in Kru5h's card ideas prior to contest 45, Drawbridge runner upped in #30 (Kudasai) + #37 (NoMoreFun), etc; idk how enforceable this'd be.
« Last Edit: December 11, 2019, 02:42:27 pm by spineflu »
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forkofnature

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Re: Weekly Design Contest Thread
« Reply #4243 on: December 11, 2019, 11:15:26 am »
0

@anordinaryman is that the 24 hour warning?

To allow people to play with all previous and winners, I'd rather you not use names of previous winners or runner-ups. To that end, I'd like to remind @Grep know that "Rabbits" was the name of a previous runner up in contest 45 (plural is hardly a difference), so I hope you feel comforting using a new name.

This is good praxis but also we've had two different Cozeners win (challenges 23 + 52) and Rabbits was a pretty well known fan card in Kru5h's card ideas prior to contest 45 so idk how enforceable this'd be.

I mean, it's enforceable at least this time around inasmuch as the judging criteria are up to the judge, but I agree it's a little bit silly as a rule rather than a guideline.
« Last Edit: December 11, 2019, 01:08:52 pm by forkofnature »
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anordinaryman

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Re: Weekly Design Contest Thread
« Reply #4244 on: December 11, 2019, 12:56:24 pm »
+1

Totally unenforceable since the judges change, for sure! We cant consider outside fan expansions because we cant know all of them. This thread being as internally consistent as possible is a nice ideal to strive for. sure, Cozener is an exception to that rule, but weve done a good job avoiding duplicate names, and I believe we should try to continue doing so.

According to my records this is not quite 24 Hours. Ill make a separate post for that when it hits.
« Last Edit: December 13, 2019, 01:46:03 pm by anordinaryman »
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pst

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Re: Weekly Design Contest Thread
« Reply #4245 on: December 11, 2019, 02:12:58 pm »
+2

Cozener is an exception to that rule, but weve done a good job avoiding duplicate names, and I believe we should try to continue doing so.

Oops! When I made that second Cozener I didn't know about the previous one. I had some other idea I didn't like for some reason and was looking in synonym lexicons to find a name. Would absolutely have changed it if someone had mentioned this!
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Something_Smart

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Re: Weekly Design Contest Thread
« Reply #4246 on: December 11, 2019, 03:21:53 pm »
+4



Quote
Millstone
$4 - Treasure
$1
Choose one: return this to the Supply for +$2, or gain a Millstone.
« Last Edit: December 12, 2019, 08:30:12 pm by Something_Smart »
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popsofctown

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Re: Weekly Design Contest Thread
« Reply #4247 on: December 11, 2019, 05:59:51 pm »
0

I don't feel like I'm the reason the discussion has become combative, but that is subjective, in any case it's a public forum so anyone can determine if I'm at fault or not.  I hope not. 
I give segura the last word on the topic of the card(s).
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popsofctown

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Re: Weekly Design Contest Thread
« Reply #4248 on: December 11, 2019, 06:05:19 pm »
+1

Islet
6$ Action - Victory
You may set an Islet from your hand aside on your Island mat.  If you do, set this aside on your Island mat.
--
Worth 4 VP

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anordinaryman

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Re: Weekly Design Contest Thread
« Reply #4249 on: December 11, 2019, 11:11:36 pm »
+1

24 hour warning post!
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