# Dominion Strategy Forum

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#### faust

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##### Re: Weekly Design Contest Thread
« Reply #2075 on: May 24, 2019, 02:46:08 am »
0

Here's my attempt at a balanced debt attack that won't leave anyone swimming in debt.
So do cards costing \$0 cost 1D when this is in play, or not? I.e., is the "1D more" tied to the "1\$ less"?
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Since the number of points is within a constant factor of the number of city quarters, in the long run we can get (4 - ε) ↑↑ n points in n turns for any ε > 0.

#### hhelibebcnofnena

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##### Re: Weekly Design Contest Thread
« Reply #2076 on: May 24, 2019, 09:16:37 am »
+1

I receive the impression, that some cards are a joint project, which is not the sense of this challenge? Shouldn't be the discussion after judgement?
Technically it's a competition, but I think people aren't really as focused on winning as they are on creating cool cards and seeing other people's cool cards. Sure, you could do that in other places, but having a challenge to meet might help give some inspiration.

If you want this to be able to hand out more than 10 Curses in multiplayer, you could use exchange instead of trash.
The Curse supply pile only has 10 Curses for 2 players, 20 for 3, and 30 for 4, which is the exact amount Flashing Lights will hand out. Same with IGG, as IGG's Cursing is on-gain. So that won't be an issue. It's just a question of whether or not you want the Flashing Lights pile to run out with the Curses.

Condos
Action <4>
+1 Card
+2 Actions
- <4>

Clarification: - <4> means you remove up to 4 debt
Capital says "take <6>", not "+<6>". I don't see why removing debt should be different. "Remove up to <4>" seems perfectly fine to me.
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#### Gazbag

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##### Re: Weekly Design Contest Thread
« Reply #2077 on: May 24, 2019, 09:35:02 am »
0

I receive the impression, that some cards are a joint project, which is not the sense of this challenge? Shouldn't be the discussion after judgement?
Technically it's a competition, but I think people aren't really as focused on winning as they are on creating cool cards and seeing other people's cool cards. Sure, you could do that in other places, but having a challenge to meet might help give some inspiration.

The rules in the first post specifically say that discussing entries is permitted.
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#### segura

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##### Re: Weekly Design Contest Thread
« Reply #2078 on: May 24, 2019, 09:47:33 am »
0

Updated Submission:

change log:
Replaced When you draw this card from your deck, trash it and gain a Will-O'-Wisp
I think it is a better than IGG. While IGG can lead to some quick piling and self-Copper-spamming to keep you afloat economy-wise, most decks prefer cantrips to a Copper-(gainers) and this card is also far cheaper than IGG.
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#### hhelibebcnofnena

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##### Re: Weekly Design Contest Thread
« Reply #2079 on: May 24, 2019, 10:01:52 am »
0

Updated Submission:

change log:
Replaced When you draw this card from your deck, trash it and gain a Will-O'-Wisp
I think it is a better than IGG. While IGG can lead to some quick piling and self-Copper-spamming to keep you afloat economy-wise, most decks prefer cantrips to a Copper-(gainers) and this card is also far cheaper than IGG.
Also, IGG doesn't topdeck the Curses.
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#### Frolouch

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##### Re: Weekly Design Contest Thread
« Reply #2080 on: May 24, 2019, 02:38:54 pm »
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Monoculture:

I don't think this should have the Debt icons at the top corners. The top corners are only for how much the Treasure is worth.
I disagree. Potion features a Potion on the top so what we actually see on the top is what a Treasure card produces.
This very card produces 5 Coins as well as a variable amount of Debt so it is not bad to show all parts of production on the top (unlike with Capital you also get the Debt immediately).

But why does Ducat not say +1 Coffers in the corners then?

Debt and coffers are tokens, not treasures. So it made sense to remove the ? Debt on the top. The card submission has been updated with clearer language and a different cost:

This won't work properly.This only counts Durations or a copy of this.

The check should happen "At the end of your Buy phase" or "At the start of your Clean-up". The latter if you want to count Night cards.

Option 1: Cards are discarded from play in any order. You discard Monoculture last so that only Monocultures are in play when you discard it from play.

Option 2: Cards are discarded from play all at once. Since these discards are all concurrent, you resolve discarding each card in any order... effectively the same as option 1.

You want Walled Village wording: "At the start of Clean-up, take <1> per differently named card you have in play, and then you may pay off <>."
Appreciate the input. I've updated the text to make the effect clearer. I think this is how I initially intended it. I'm still keeping the potion, because I enjoy what it does thematically, and I think it would be too powerful if it was just a coin cost.
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#### Aquila

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##### Re: Weekly Design Contest Thread #30: debt
« Reply #2081 on: May 24, 2019, 03:24:25 pm »
0

I've gone in with the creative use approach:

Technically, there's no rule saying that Duration effects stop if they leave play; You can use Improve on a Duration card and still get its next-turn(s) effect, for example. Recompense should say "At the start of each of your turns that this remains in play:"
Yes, thanks for this. I redid the card to be simpler (he says):

An Action that can be added to next turn's hand if you keep debt around. You might do it as a way to build up. Costs debt itself now so it can't gain copies of itself, but there's also buying them to keep hold of your Recompenses.
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#### Gubump

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##### Re: Weekly Design Contest Thread #30: debt
« Reply #2082 on: May 24, 2019, 03:56:34 pm »
0

I've gone in with the creative use approach:

Technically, there's no rule saying that Duration effects stop if they leave play; You can use Improve on a Duration card and still get its next-turn(s) effect, for example. Recompense should say "At the start of each of your turns that this remains in play:"
Yes, thanks for this. I redid the card to be simpler (he says):

An Action that can be added to next turn's hand if you keep debt around. You might do it as a way to build up. Costs debt itself now so it can't gain copies of itself, but there's also buying them to keep hold of your Recompenses.

Problem is, now it's way, way weaker, since it takes an Action each turn.
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#### mail-mi

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##### Re: Weekly Design Contest Thread
« Reply #2083 on: May 24, 2019, 03:58:24 pm »
0

Here's my attempt at a balanced debt attack that won't leave anyone swimming in debt.
So do cards costing \$0 cost 1D when this is in play, or not? I.e., is the "1D more" tied to the "1\$ less"?

Yes,  after playing a Broker, coppers and curses cost 1D. So if you play too many Brokers all the cheap stuff will start to get expensive.
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#### herw

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##### Re: Weekly Design Contest Thread
« Reply #2084 on: May 24, 2019, 04:04:50 pm »
0

I receive the impression, that some cards are a joint project, which is not the sense of this challenge? Shouldn't be the discussion after judgement?
Technically it's a competition, but I think people aren't really as focused on winning as they are on creating cool cards and seeing other people's cool cards. Sure, you could do that in other places, but having a challenge to meet might help give some inspiration.

The rules in the first post specifically say that discussing entries is permitted.
maybe, but it is boring to see that every next hour there is a change. Isn't it possible to think about a card 1 day? I am scrolling and scrolling and only see the same card in another variation.
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#### Commodore Chuckles

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##### Re: Weekly Design Contest Thread
« Reply #2085 on: May 24, 2019, 04:08:46 pm »
+3

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#### Gazbag

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##### Re: Weekly Design Contest Thread
« Reply #2086 on: May 25, 2019, 07:19:42 am »
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It's trying to be like a Kingdom card Disciple. Debt cost prevents it from gaining copies of itself and because the gaining is conditional upon playing an Action it shouldn't be too good early to have a debt cost. I imagine it's still very strong but I don't think that has to be bad thing.
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#### Commodore Chuckles

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##### Re: Weekly Design Contest Thread
« Reply #2087 on: May 25, 2019, 10:19:08 am »
+1

Quote
Banker
Action - \$2

Play a non-Duration Action card costing up to \$6 from the supply, leaving it there. Take debt equal to its cost in coin.

I like the idea, but the penalty seems too harsh. Paying the full price for a card is usually only worth it if you play it more than once. Maybe "Take debt equal to half its cost in coin, rounded up"? And then maybe you could raise the price of the card itself.
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#### Kudasai

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##### Re: Weekly Design Contest Thread
« Reply #2088 on: May 25, 2019, 04:18:57 pm »
0

I receive the impression, that some cards are a joint project, which is not the sense of this challenge? Shouldn't be the discussion after judgement?
Technically it's a competition, but I think people aren't really as focused on winning as they are on creating cool cards and seeing other people's cool cards. Sure, you could do that in other places, but having a challenge to meet might help give some inspiration.

The rules in the first post specifically say that discussing entries is permitted.
maybe, but it is boring to see that every next hour there is a change. Isn't it possible to think about a card 1 day? I am scrolling and scrolling and only see the same card in another variation.

I certainly see your argument. It can be hard to track updates when there are so many updates flying around. But ultimately I think the major benefit of these contests are to inject new ideas into Dominion. A big part of that is analyzing other peoples cards to make sure the submitted content is as good as it can be. So yes, it's probably not fair to the individual person who got their card right the first time, but I think the community benefits greatly from the conversations and tweaks that come from them.
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#### Kudasai

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##### Re: Weekly Design Contest Thread
« Reply #2089 on: May 25, 2019, 04:28:29 pm »
+2

It's trying to be like a Kingdom card Disciple. Debt cost prevents it from gaining copies of itself and because the gaining is conditional upon playing an Action it shouldn't be too good early to have a debt cost. I imagine it's still very strong but I don't think that has to be bad thing.

A Disciple-esque card certainly seems like a good fit for an 8 Debt cost card. I worry though that Royal Academy is much more strong.

Mainly because the timing window you have to hit on Disciple is a lot smaller and the cost of getting it wrong is much more severe. You need to have the correct saturation of Action Supply cards (and really high cost cards to make it worth it) by the time you hit Disciple. If you don't, you probably end up playing it dead anyways just to get to Teacher. This can be tough if you've got a lot of non-Supply Traveler cards floating around. An issue Royal Academy won't have to deal with.

Secondly, Royal Academy allows you to play a card twice and gain a DIFFERENT card if you do. A small difference, but I think this is a huge buff.

I could be wrong, but I thought I'd at least share my concerns. Any thoughts?
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#### Kudasai

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##### Re: Weekly Design Contest Thread
« Reply #2090 on: May 25, 2019, 04:48:33 pm »
0

Prophet
Edict (LastFootnote's idea)
Setup: Each player may take <1>. If they do, they put all starting cards into their hand, and put 5 cards onto their deck.

Interesting idea. I'm sure we all know how frustrating it is to get the wrong opening hands on the wrong board. I'm not sure if reducing your initial buy power by \$1 will always be worth the opening hands you want, but perhaps.

Seems like the most logical opening hands you could force are:
\$1-\$5 (If you had \$4-\$3 and wanted a \$5 cost)
\$3-\$3 (If you had \$5-\$2 and wanted two \$3 cost)

I just wonder if there's some wording that would allow your combined, initial, buy power to remain at \$7. Like having the debt only hit you after your 2nd turn, etc. Maybe that's not a direction you want to go with this though.
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#### King Leon

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##### Re: Weekly Design Contest Thread
« Reply #2091 on: May 25, 2019, 05:02:15 pm »
0

It's trying to be like a Kingdom card Disciple. Debt cost prevents it from gaining copies of itself and because the gaining is conditional upon playing an Action it shouldn't be too good early to have a debt cost. I imagine it's still very strong but I don't think that has to be bad thing.

A Disciple-esque card certainly seems like a good fit for an 8 Debt cost card. I worry though that Royal Academy is much more strong.

Mainly because the timing window you have to hit on Disciple is a lot smaller and the cost of getting it wrong is much more severe. You need to have the correct saturation of Action Supply cards (and really high cost cards to make it worth it) by the time you hit Disciple. If you don't, you probably end up playing it dead anyways just to get to Teacher. This can be tough if you've got a lot of non-Supply Traveler cards floating around. An issue Royal Academy won't have to deal with.

Secondly, Royal Academy allows you to play a card twice and gain a DIFFERENT card if you do. A small difference, but I think this is a huge buff.

I could be wrong, but I thought I'd at least share my concerns. Any thoughts?

Gaining \$5 cards is pretty strong. That is the reason that my suggestion, Blueprints, only gives you one gain per turn. Royal Academy is very similar, but you actually can play multiple instances of it in one turn. In contrast to University (and Blueprints) you must have another Action card in your hand to get the gain, which is a huge drawback. I like both cards, Gazbag’s and mine. They are similar at the first glance, but come with a different twist.
« Last Edit: May 25, 2019, 05:03:31 pm by King Leon »
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#### Gazbag

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##### Re: Weekly Design Contest Thread
« Reply #2092 on: May 25, 2019, 06:26:51 pm »
+1

It's trying to be like a Kingdom card Disciple. Debt cost prevents it from gaining copies of itself and because the gaining is conditional upon playing an Action it shouldn't be too good early to have a debt cost. I imagine it's still very strong but I don't think that has to be bad thing.

A Disciple-esque card certainly seems like a good fit for an 8 Debt cost card. I worry though that Royal Academy is much more strong.

Mainly because the timing window you have to hit on Disciple is a lot smaller and the cost of getting it wrong is much more severe. You need to have the correct saturation of Action Supply cards (and really high cost cards to make it worth it) by the time you hit Disciple. If you don't, you probably end up playing it dead anyways just to get to Teacher. This can be tough if you've got a lot of non-Supply Traveler cards floating around. An issue Royal Academy won't have to deal with.

Secondly, Royal Academy allows you to play a card twice and gain a DIFFERENT card if you do. A small difference, but I think this is a huge buff.

I could be wrong, but I thought I'd at least share my concerns. Any thoughts?

I think that Royal Academy's power is in the ballpark of Kings Court, it seems very powerful to me.
Aside from some random Disciple strategy stuff that I probably shouldn't get into here I don't really disagree with what you're saying, once it's in your deck Royal Academy is better than Disciple unless you're playing a \$6+ (or Debt or potion or whatever) cost and would like another copy of that. But the whole Traveller line thing means that Disciple has a wildly different opportunity cost and even has the ability to become Teacher so Royal Academy being mostly better doesn't necessarily matter. I think the question should be more whether Royal Academy is too crazy even at 8 debt rather than how it stacks up against Disciple and I do think there's a pretty high chance that it is very crazy at 8 debt.

The nerf I'd go with would be to change it to: Play an Action card from your hand twice, if it cost \$5 or less gain a copy of it. That way it'd be even more Disciple-esque so we can get the experience of Disciple without having to travel.

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#### majiponi

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##### Re: Weekly Design Contest Thread
« Reply #2093 on: May 25, 2019, 06:33:38 pm »
+1

Prophet
Edict (LastFootnote's idea)
Setup: Each player may take <1>. If they do, they put all starting cards into their hand, and put 5 cards onto their deck.

Interesting idea. I'm sure we all know how frustrating it is to get the wrong opening hands on the wrong board. I'm not sure if reducing your initial buy power by \$1 will always be worth the opening hands you want, but perhaps.

Seems like the most logical opening hands you could force are:
\$1-\$5 (If you had \$4-\$3 and wanted a \$5 cost)
\$3-\$3 (If you had \$5-\$2 and wanted two \$3 cost)

I just wonder if there's some wording that would allow your combined, initial, buy power to remain at \$7. Like having the debt only hit you after your 2nd turn, etc. Maybe that's not a direction you want to go with this though.

I tried taking debts after T2, but that was too easy to forget. This version is simpler and still gives a choice to have \$7.
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#### naitchman

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##### Re: Weekly Design Contest Thread
« Reply #2094 on: May 25, 2019, 11:27:21 pm »
+1

Prophet
Edict (LastFootnote's idea)
Setup: Each player may take <1>. If they do, they put all starting cards into their hand, and put 5 cards onto their deck.

Interesting idea. I'm sure we all know how frustrating it is to get the wrong opening hands on the wrong board. I'm not sure if reducing your initial buy power by \$1 will always be worth the opening hands you want, but perhaps.

Seems like the most logical opening hands you could force are:
\$1-\$5 (If you had \$4-\$3 and wanted a \$5 cost)
\$3-\$3 (If you had \$5-\$2 and wanted two \$3 cost)

I just wonder if there's some wording that would allow your combined, initial, buy power to remain at \$7. Like having the debt only hit you after your 2nd turn, etc. Maybe that's not a direction you want to go with this though.

I tried taking debts after T2, but that was too easy to forget. This version is simpler and still gives a choice to have \$7.

What about putting a debt token under your deck? Then when you reshuffle you'll remember to take it.
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#### segura

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##### Re: Weekly Design Contest Thread
« Reply #2095 on: May 26, 2019, 04:52:14 am »
0

It's trying to be like a Kingdom card Disciple. Debt cost prevents it from gaining copies of itself and because the gaining is conditional upon playing an Action it shouldn't be too good early to have a debt cost. I imagine it's still very strong but I don't think that has to be bad thing.

A Disciple-esque card certainly seems like a good fit for an 8 Debt cost card. I worry though that Royal Academy is much more strong.

Mainly because the timing window you have to hit on Disciple is a lot smaller and the cost of getting it wrong is much more severe. You need to have the correct saturation of Action Supply cards (and really high cost cards to make it worth it) by the time you hit Disciple. If you don't, you probably end up playing it dead anyways just to get to Teacher. This can be tough if you've got a lot of non-Supply Traveler cards floating around. An issue Royal Academy won't have to deal with.

Secondly, Royal Academy allows you to play a card twice and gain a DIFFERENT card if you do. A small difference, but I think this is a huge buff.

I could be wrong, but I thought I'd at least share my concerns. Any thoughts?

I think that Royal Academy's power is in the ballpark of Kings Court, it seems very powerful to me.
At a cost of \$7 or \$8 it might be OK. D8 is roughly similar to a \$6 so an Artisan that Thrones is obviously too cheap at D8.
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#### hhelibebcnofnena

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##### Re: Weekly Design Contest Thread
« Reply #2096 on: May 26, 2019, 10:48:54 pm »
0

I figured I would give an image for my entry. Also I changed the wording a bit to make it more consistent with e.g. Sinister Plot.

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#### Gazbag

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##### Re: Weekly Design Contest Thread
« Reply #2097 on: May 27, 2019, 05:41:02 am »
+1

It's trying to be like a Kingdom card Disciple. Debt cost prevents it from gaining copies of itself and because the gaining is conditional upon playing an Action it shouldn't be too good early to have a debt cost. I imagine it's still very strong but I don't think that has to be bad thing.

A Disciple-esque card certainly seems like a good fit for an 8 Debt cost card. I worry though that Royal Academy is much more strong.

Mainly because the timing window you have to hit on Disciple is a lot smaller and the cost of getting it wrong is much more severe. You need to have the correct saturation of Action Supply cards (and really high cost cards to make it worth it) by the time you hit Disciple. If you don't, you probably end up playing it dead anyways just to get to Teacher. This can be tough if you've got a lot of non-Supply Traveler cards floating around. An issue Royal Academy won't have to deal with.

Secondly, Royal Academy allows you to play a card twice and gain a DIFFERENT card if you do. A small difference, but I think this is a huge buff.

I could be wrong, but I thought I'd at least share my concerns. Any thoughts?

I think that Royal Academy's power is in the ballpark of Kings Court, it seems very powerful to me.
At a cost of \$7 or \$8 it might be OK. D8 is roughly similar to a \$6 so an Artisan that Thrones is obviously too cheap at D8.

I don't think this is true at all. Artisan for example doesn't work at 8D because you'd just open with it every time where as I am of the belief that King's Court would be a generally better experience if it cost 8D. The costs don't simply convert like that, Dominion is way more complicated than that.
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#### segura

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##### Re: Weekly Design Contest Thread
« Reply #2098 on: May 27, 2019, 11:32:55 am »
0

KC at Debt cost is an interesting idea. It would make the gaining less swingy but it would also make it easier to play (like with Pathfinding or Citadel, the trade-off between spiking early and building your engine is in my opinion quite interesting).
But D8 is too cheap, D9 or D10 are better.

I agree that snowballing cards like Artisan would not be appropriate at Debt cost. But Overlord is a card with Debt cost that is often purchased in the opening and a comparison with Band of Misfits reveals that, if the card were priced at an ordinary cost, it would cost \$6 (\$7 seems too much).
Royal Blacksmith is also fairly similar to Hunting Grounds so the comparison between D8 and \$6 seems to be sound.
Note that I am not arguing that the different types of cost are equivalent, of course they are not. It is just a heuristic that can be useful when comparing cards of different cost categories.

Back to your card, precisely because it costs D8 yet is far better than a \$6 it is too cheap. It is ultimately a risk management thing but TR variants can arguably be purchased after the first shuffle (with Shelters in the Kingdom you could even open Royal Academy) so you could argue that it is not that different from Artisan which, as you rightly said, would be crazy at D8.
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#### Freddy10

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##### Re: Weekly Design Contest Thread
« Reply #2099 on: May 27, 2019, 06:49:24 pm »
+1

Not sure about the price, maybe \$3? The idea was, at the beginning, inspired by Asper's road: you may play it again by paying something. You take the debt after taking the first 2 cards, so you can skip it you already have the cards that you want.
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Who trashes the trashers?
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