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Author Topic: Weekly Design Contest Thread  (Read 71229 times)

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segura

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Re: Weekly Design Contest Thread
« Reply #2025 on: May 23, 2019, 03:36:59 pm »
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Debt and coffers are tokens, not treasures. So it made sense to remove the ? Debt on the top. The card submission has been updated with clearer language and a different cost:

Looks like a more expensive and weaker version of Capital now. I'd cut the Potion cost, it works against the anti-variety idea of the card (Potion is one extra, different card in your deck).
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Gazbag

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Re: Weekly Design Contest Thread
« Reply #2026 on: May 23, 2019, 03:37:33 pm »
+2

But why does Ducat not say +1 Coffers in the corners then?
As there is no icon for Coffers?
I am not arguing that the Debt up there is necessary, important or matching the way the official cards do it. All I am saying is that it is OK as a reminder that the very card you play also produces Debt.

It still looks pretty good to me
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Gubump

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Re: Weekly Design Contest Thread
« Reply #2027 on: May 23, 2019, 03:54:51 pm »
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If it is too strong, buy instead of gain is an obvious nerf. Note that this could be beneficial during your turn (when you spend less than you total) but also hurt you (when you have $10 and want to buy 2 $5s but are unable to due to the Debt that you incur between the two Buys)

I think the +1 Coffers effect is problematic. There's a reason that cards like Smuggler and Treasure Hunter only give you benefits based on ONE other player's turn, not everyone's. This effect scales badly with player count.

Here's my idea of how to fix it:

"Until your next turn, when any player (including you) gains a card, they take <1>. At the start of your next turn, take Coffers equal to the greatest number of cards any one player gained since your last turn." Something like that.
« Last Edit: May 23, 2019, 04:00:43 pm by Gubump »
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segura

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Re: Weekly Design Contest Thread
« Reply #2028 on: May 23, 2019, 04:10:37 pm »
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If it is too strong, buy instead of gain is an obvious nerf. Note that this could be beneficial during your turn (when you spend less than you total) but also hurt you (when you have $10 and want to buy 2 $5s but are unable to due to the Debt that you incur between the two Buys)

I think the +1 Coffers effect is problematic. There's a reason that cards like Smuggler and Treasure Hunter only give you benefits based on ONE other player's turn, not everyone's. This effect scales badly with player count.

Here's my idea of how to fix it:

"Until your next turn, when any player (including you) gains a card, they take <1>. At the start of your next turn, take Coffers equal to the greatest number of cards any one player gained since your last turn." Something like that.
I am very well aware that the benefits of this card depend on the player count. Just like Pirate Ship, Jester and Noble Brigand (ironically all not particularly powerful Attacks). Ambassador is the most funky one. It is a net trasher in 2P, a "distributor" in 3P games and a net junker in 4P games.
I don't consider any of these cards to be broken just because their strength scales with player count.

About your idea, seems messy to track. Buy instead of gain is likely a simpler nerf.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Weekly Design Contest Thread
« Reply #2029 on: May 23, 2019, 04:40:45 pm »
+2

I don't get what you mean about Ambassador scaling; if you consider giving out 3 junk cards instead of 1 junk card scaling, then Witch, and all Cursers, would be considered to be scaling; more powerful with more players. But that's not how it works.

Whether the total amount of junk Ambassador gives your opponents is more or less than the total number of junk it trashes for you is irrelevant. It always trashes (up to) 2 cards, and gives out 1 junk to each opponent.
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Re: Weekly Design Contest Thread
« Reply #2030 on: May 23, 2019, 04:54:01 pm »
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I don't get what you mean about Ambassador scaling
Let's assume for the sake of simplicity that all players do play Ambassador at the same frequency and are always able to trash 2 cards.

In a 2P game you trash 2 via your own Ambassador and get 1 via the one of your opponent. Net trash 1.
In a 3P game you trash 2 and get 2 via the ones of your opponents. Net effect of 0.
In a 4P game you trash 2 and get 3 via the ones of your opponents. Net junk 1.

This makes Ambassador arguably the most player count sensitive card, it literally changes its core behaviour from a net trasher to a net junker! If you play a Kingdom with 2P you can easily use Ambassador as trasher whereas in the very same Kingdom with 4P you have to either rely on another trasher or, if there are no other trashers, Ambassador does not reduce but amplifies the junk.
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Gubump

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Re: Weekly Design Contest Thread
« Reply #2031 on: May 23, 2019, 04:56:44 pm »
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I am very well aware that the benefits of this card depend on the player count. Just like Pirate Ship, Jester and Noble Brigand (ironically all not particularly powerful Attacks). Ambassador is the most funky one. It is a net trasher in 2P, a "distributor" in 3P games and a net junker in 4P games.
I don't consider any of these cards to be broken just because their strength scales with player count.

Pirate Ship doesn't scale with player count to the same degree as Revenant. The only way it scales is that it's more likely to "hit" with more players; Revenant's effect stacks for each hit. Revenant is like if Pirate Ship got a coin token for every Treasure trashed instead of just one if it trashed any, and then got + $1 per Coin token on your Pirate Ship mat after the attack. Except it's even better, because their Coffers instead of $, and Coffers are strictly better.

I don't get what you mean about Ambassador scaling
Let's assume for the sake of simplicity that all players do play Ambassador at the same frequency and are always able to trash 2 cards.

In a 2P game you trash 2 via your own Ambassador and get 1 via the one of your opponent. Net trash 1.
In a 3P game you trash 2 and get 2 via the ones of your opponents. Net effect of 0.
In a 4P game you trash 2 and get 3 via the ones of your opponents. Net junk 1.

This makes Ambassador arguably the most player count sensitive card, it literally changes its core behaviour from a net trasher to a net junker! If you play a Kingdom with 2P you can easily use Ambassador as trasher whereas in the very same Kingdom with 4P you have to either rely on another trasher or, if there are no other trashers, Ambassador does not reduce but amplifies the junk.

Your scenario assumes that every single player has an Ambassador, which is unlikely and requires more Ambassadors to be taken from the Supply. Sure, Ambassador could be said, based on your example, to scale with the player count, but it scales with the number of copies shared by players, not just player count. Revenant, however, scales with player count alone.
« Last Edit: May 23, 2019, 05:01:58 pm by Gubump »
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Re: Weekly Design Contest Thread
« Reply #2032 on: May 23, 2019, 05:08:14 pm »
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Pirate Ship doesn't scale with player count to the same degree as Revenant. The only way it scales is that it's more likely to "hit" with more players; Revenant's effect stacks for each hit. Revenant is like if Pirate Ship got a coin token for every Treasure trashed instead of just one if it trashed any.
And? In a 2P game Revenant could easily yield just 1 Coffers. Not a particularly huge benefit which is why I do not worry about the multiplayer case.


Your scenario assumes that every single player has an Ambassador, which is unlikely
Not getting Ambassadors is unlikely. Unlike you I do not implicitly assume irrational players.
Pretty weird to argue like this just in order to deny that many Dominion cards scale with player count. You also want to deny that one Jester can theoretically gain you 3 $5s or that one Noble Brigand can theoretically gain you 3 Golds in a 4P game?
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Gubump

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Re: Weekly Design Contest Thread
« Reply #2033 on: May 23, 2019, 05:10:01 pm »
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Pirate Ship doesn't scale with player count to the same degree as Revenant. The only way it scales is that it's more likely to "hit" with more players; Revenant's effect stacks for each hit. Revenant is like if Pirate Ship got a coin token for every Treasure trashed instead of just one if it trashed any.
And? In a 2P game Revenant could easily yield just 1 Coffers. Not a particularly huge benefit which is why I do not worry about the multiplayer case

That's only if your opponent doesn't buy anything, and it would be very rare for them to do that just to avoid 1 measly debt. In 2P games, it will usually yield 2 Coffers. In a 3P game, it suddenly gives +3 Coffers, and has an attack along with it. For just $5. Revenant is balanced ONLY in 2 player games.

Your scenario assumes that every single player has an Ambassador
True that, I did indeed implicitly assume rational play.

Sorry, I should have specified. Your scenario assumes that every player has an Ambassador AND plays them EXACTLY the same number of times. That's very unlikely, even if Ambassador is SO great that not buying them in every possible set is irrational, which is itself an irrational assumption. No card is good in absolutely every possible deck. Also, I guess Witch must also scale with players according to you. After all, if 2 players play one, it results in a net 1 Curse for everybody, and if 4 players play one, it results in a net 3 Curses for everybody. I'll give you Noble Brigand and Jester, but arguing that Ambassador scales with player count is just stupid.

The thing about Noble Brigand and Jester is that sure, their potential strength increases with player count, but the chances of gaining more cards decreases with each card gained; you might consistently gain one powerful card in a 4 player game, but you're pretty unlikely to gain 3 Golds with either of those. Your Revenant, on the other hand, is just as likely to gain +4 Coffers in a 4P game as it is to get +2 in a 2P game.
« Last Edit: May 23, 2019, 05:18:36 pm by Gubump »
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Re: Weekly Design Contest Thread
« Reply #2034 on: May 23, 2019, 05:17:42 pm »
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Pirate Ship doesn't scale with player count to the same degree as Revenant. The only way it scales is that it's more likely to "hit" with more players; Revenant's effect stacks for each hit. Revenant is like if Pirate Ship got a coin token for every Treasure trashed instead of just one if it trashed any.
And? In a 2P game Revenant could easily yield just 1 Coffers. Not a particularly huge benefit which is why I do not worry about the multiplayer case
In 2P games, it will usually yield 2 Coffers.
You cannot conveniently ignore that you only get the second Coffer after you bought a card and that it comes with Debt. As I already pointed out, that can be an asset as well as a liability.

Also, I guess Witch must also scale with players according to you. After all, if 2 players play one, it results in a net 1 Curse for everybody, and if 4 players play one, it results in a net 3 Curses for everybody.
Yep, that's how it is, junking attacks are stronger in multiplayer games. Just play some yourself to get a feel for it.

Quote
I'll give you Noble Brigand and Jester, but arguing that Ambassador scales with player count is just stupid.
Thanks for the insult. I think I am done here. The simple maths/counting speaks for itself and I have no interest in chatting about Dominion with rude people.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Weekly Design Contest Thread
« Reply #2035 on: May 23, 2019, 05:18:00 pm »
+1

I don't get what you mean about Ambassador scaling
Let's assume for the sake of simplicity that all players do play Ambassador at the same frequency and are always able to trash 2 cards.

In a 2P game you trash 2 via your own Ambassador and get 1 via the one of your opponent. Net trash 1.
In a 3P game you trash 2 and get 2 via the ones of your opponents. Net effect of 0.
In a 4P game you trash 2 and get 3 via the ones of your opponents. Net junk 1.

This makes Ambassador arguably the most player count sensitive card, it literally changes its core behaviour from a net trasher to a net junker! If you play a Kingdom with 2P you can easily use Ambassador as trasher whereas in the very same Kingdom with 4P you have to either rely on another trasher or, if there are no other trashers, Ambassador does not reduce but amplifies the junk.

I see what you're saying; but that applies to all attacks in the game, especially cursers. Witches hurt your deck more if you are getting 3 Curses per turn rather than 1. So while it can be said that the attack hurts your deck more; it doesn't make it's effect when you buy it stronger.
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Gubump

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Re: Weekly Design Contest Thread
« Reply #2036 on: May 23, 2019, 05:20:31 pm »
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Pirate Ship doesn't scale with player count to the same degree as Revenant. The only way it scales is that it's more likely to "hit" with more players; Revenant's effect stacks for each hit. Revenant is like if Pirate Ship got a coin token for every Treasure trashed instead of just one if it trashed any.
And? In a 2P game Revenant could easily yield just 1 Coffers. Not a particularly huge benefit which is why I do not worry about the multiplayer case
In 2P games, it will usually yield 2 Coffers.
You cannot conveniently ignore that you only get the second Coffer after you bought a card and that it comes with Debt. As I already pointed out, that can be an asset as well as a liability.

Um, as worded, you buy a card and get +1 Coffers, then somebody ELSE buys a card...and you get +1 Coffers, hence why I said 2 Coffers in 2P games and 4 Coffers in 4P games. If you intended that you only get Coffers when YOU gain a card, that's not what the wording says at all.

Also, I guess Witch must also scale with players according to you. After all, if 2 players play one, it results in a net 1 Curse for everybody, and if 4 players play one, it results in a net 3 Curses for everybody.
Yep, that's how it is, junking attacks are stronger in multiplayer games. Just play some yourself to get a feel for it.

Quote
I'll give you Noble Brigand and Jester, but arguing that Ambassador scales with player count is just stupid.
Thanks for the insult. I think I am done here. The simple maths/counting speaks for itself and I have no interest in chatting about Dominion with rude people.

Still assumes that everybody plays the attack the exact same number of times. That doesn't make each individual copy of Witch stronger; it results in more junk because there are more of them.
« Last Edit: May 23, 2019, 05:25:01 pm by Gubump »
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Re: Weekly Design Contest Thread
« Reply #2037 on: May 23, 2019, 05:25:11 pm »
+1

I see what you're saying; but that applies to all attacks in the game, especially cursers. Witches hurt your deck more if you are getting 3 Curses per turn rather than 1. So while it can be said that the attack hurts your deck more; it doesn't make it's effect when you buy it stronger.
I don't think that it applies to all attacks. Stuff that does not stack like handsize attacks are decreasing in strength in multiplayer. In a 2P game your Militia will always hit whereas in a 3P game it might hit only one opponent.

The general point is that some Attacks scale with player count. In a 2P game you might be able to skip a junker whereas in a 3P game you cannot do so in the very same Kingdom. Gee, a lot of stuff in Dominion scales with player count. City becomes less ignorable and in general, all Action cards become more scarce. The mirror image of that is that a money strategy becomes on average stronger in multiplayer. 4P games are in my experience no fun as it is near impossible to build an engine.
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Re: Weekly Design Contest Thread
« Reply #2038 on: May 23, 2019, 05:27:02 pm »
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Um, as worded, you buy a card and get +1 Coffers, then somebody ELSE buys a card.
Nope. As the card is a Night-Duration, it is the other way around.
Vampire is the only way to gain a card during your Night phase and if I nerf it to buy instead of gain, there is no way to buy a card during your Night phase.
« Last Edit: May 23, 2019, 05:29:54 pm by segura »
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GendoIkari

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Re: Weekly Design Contest Thread
« Reply #2039 on: May 23, 2019, 05:28:54 pm »
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I see what you're saying; but that applies to all attacks in the game, especially cursers. Witches hurt your deck more if you are getting 3 Curses per turn rather than 1. So while it can be said that the attack hurts your deck more; it doesn't make it's effect when you buy it stronger.
I don't think that it applies to all attacks. Stuff that do not stack like handsize attacks are decreasing in strength in multiplayer. In a 2P game your Militia will always hit whereas in a 3P game it might hit only one opponent.

In a 4 player Militia game, you (and all players) are more likely to start your turn with only 3 cards than in a 2 player game. So Militia generally does scale in the same way Witch does.

Quote
The general point is that some Attacks scale with player count. In a 2P game you might be able to skip a junker whereas in a 3P game you cannot do so in the very same Kingdom. Gee, a lot of stuff in Dominion scales with player count. City is les ignorable and in general, all Action cards become more scarce. The mirror image of that is that a money strategy becomes on average stronger in multiplayer.

I think this issue here is just that we're using different ideas of "card strength". Witch hurts your deck more in a 4 player game than a 2 player game, yes. But when people generally talk about "card strength", they talk about it in terms of how strong it is for you to buy one (especially compared to buying something else instead). In this way, Witch doesn't become stronger. How likely it is that Witch is a good card to buy shouldn't change in 4 player compared to 2 player, because the net effect of playing one is still exactly the same for you (you draw 2 cards, and your deck has 1 less junk card than your opponents' decks).  It's just that Witch will have a bigger impact on the game as a whole, because it is getting played more often. But this is true of every card no matter what. Silvers will generate more total in a 4 player game than a 2 player game. Smithy will draw more total cards. Etc.
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Re: Weekly Design Contest Thread
« Reply #2040 on: May 23, 2019, 05:37:57 pm »
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In this way, Witch doesn't become stronger.
I disagree. If everybody plays Witch at the same frequency you get double the amount of Curses in a 3P game than in a 2P game. So Witch does become stronger (and so do potential defenses against it, like trashers).
« Last Edit: May 23, 2019, 05:39:56 pm by segura »
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Re: Weekly Design Contest Thread
« Reply #2041 on: May 23, 2019, 05:38:54 pm »
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CHALLENGE #30 SUBMISSION:

My last submission was said to be complicated and uninteresting. I guess I'll try uncomplicated and uninteresting this time.



At first I didn't like this, because hey it's just a slightly buffed Highway. But then I realized that it's own cost reduction can't help you get more of them, which gives it a really good reason to have a Debt cost. I like it.

I appreciate that. Highway with an extra Buy may seem like a slight buff, but it essentially turns it into a Double Highway. A very strong card that possibly can't be balanced with a Coin cost, but the Debt cost may work. I should run a few quick test to make sure, but I think this is balanced.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Weekly Design Contest Thread
« Reply #2042 on: May 23, 2019, 05:39:07 pm »
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In this way, Witch doesn't become stronger.
I disagree. Junkers are rarely ignorable but sometimes they are. In this very situation in which you ignore a junker in a 2P game you would perhaps not do the same in a 4P game as the junk pool is larger. So not getting that Marauder in a 2P game might be fine, you can only get a max. of 10 Ruins. But in a 4P game, if you are the only player without a Marauder, you could end up with 40 Ruins.

This isn't correct, because all the other opponents are getting some of that junk as well. Just look at the math in a game where your opponent buys Witch and you don't:

2 player game: You end up with 10 Curses, your opponent ends up with 0.
3 player game, 1 opponent buys Witch, the other doesn't: You end up with 10 Curses, so does the other opponent.
3 player game, both opponents buy Witch: You end up with 10 Curses, each opponent ends up with 5.

The point is that each time a Witch is played in 3 player games, 2 Curses are given out (from the pool of 20). So you can't end up with all 20, or even more than 10, unless some players are using cards like Moat also.

In fact it's much worse in a 2 player game; where you have 10 Curse cards more than your opponent. In a 3 player game, if both opponents buy Witches, you only end up with 5 Curses more than your opponents.

4 player math works out the same way.
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Re: Weekly Design Contest Thread
« Reply #2043 on: May 23, 2019, 05:40:05 pm »
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Let me put it this way, Segura:

In a 2P game, the most likely outcome is +1 Coffers and your opponent gets 1 debt. I would rather buy Scout.

In a 4P game, on the other hand, the most likely outcome is +3 Coffers and your opponents each get 1 debt. A +3 Coffers Night card alone is something I would buy for $8.

In other words, Revenant is a must-buy if you have 4P, balanced if you have 3P, and Scout tier with 2P. Sure, a lot of official cards scale a bit with player count, but not nearly to the same degree; even the official cards that do scale with player count are balanced at their cost regardless of player count. This argument is less about whether cards should scale or not and more about the degree to which a card should be allowed to scale.
« Last Edit: May 23, 2019, 05:43:22 pm by Gubump »
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Re: Weekly Design Contest Thread
« Reply #2044 on: May 23, 2019, 05:41:20 pm »
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In this way, Witch doesn't become stronger.
I disagree. Junkers are rarely ignorable but sometimes they are. In this very situation in which you ignore a junker in a 2P game you would perhaps not do the same in a 4P game as the junk pool is larger. So not getting that Marauder in a 2P game might be fine, you can only get a max. of 10 Ruins. But in a 4P game, if you are the only player without a Marauder, you could end up with 40 Ruins.

This isn't correct, because all the other opponents are getting some of that junk as well. Just look at the math in a game where your opponent buys Witch and you don't:

2 player game: You end up with 10 Curses, your opponent ends up with 0.
3 player game, 1 opponent buys Witch, the other doesn't: You end up with 10 Curses, so does the other opponent.
3 player game, both opponents buy Witch: You end up with 10 Curses, each opponent ends up with 5.

The point is that each time a Witch is played in 3 player games, 2 Curses are given out (from the pool of 20). So you can't end up with all 20, or even more than 10, unless some players are using cards like Moat also.

In fact it's much worse in a 2 player game; where you have 10 Curse cards more than your opponent. In a 3 player game, if both opponents buy Witches, you only end up with 5 Curses more than your opponents.

4 player math works out the same way.
True that, I was wrong. But the junking frequency still increases (doubles from a 2P to a 3P game) which is why junkers (as well as trashers and some Reactions) become stronger with an increasing number of players.
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Re: Weekly Design Contest Thread
« Reply #2045 on: May 23, 2019, 05:41:59 pm »
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Let me put it this way, Segura:

In a 2P game, the most likely outcome is +1 Coffers and your opponent gets 1 debt. I would rather buy Scout.

In a 4P game, on the other hand, the most likely outcome is +3 Coffers and your opponents each get 1 debt. +3 Coffers alone is something I would buy for $8.

In other words, Revenant is a must-buy if you have 4P, balanced if you have 3P, and Scout tier with 2P. Sure, a lot of official cards scale a bit with player count, but not nearly to the same degree; the official cards that do scale with player count are balanced at their cost regardless of player count. This argument is less about whether cards should scale or not and more about the degree to which a card should be allowed to scale.

I agree about the player balance issues, but I don't think that +3 Coffers on your next turn, as a Duration, is that powerful for a . The Coffers being delayed a turn matters a lot; as well as the card just staying out more because of Duration.
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Re: Weekly Design Contest Thread
« Reply #2046 on: May 23, 2019, 05:42:17 pm »
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This will get cleaned up at the end of the last opponent's turn because it doesn't do anything during your next turn. I don't know whether that's intentional or not. (I'm pretty sure this is how Durations work but someone can shout at me if I'm wrong.)
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Re: Weekly Design Contest Thread
« Reply #2047 on: May 23, 2019, 05:45:26 pm »
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This will get cleaned up at the end of the last opponent's turn because it doesn't do anything during your next turn. I don't know whether that's intentional or not. (I'm pretty sure this is how Durations work but someone can shout at me if I'm wrong.)

Hmm, yes, I believe the rulings on Coin of the Realm called on a Caravan Guard tell us that all players discard in-play cards during all cleanup phases, not only during their own cleanup phase. It should rarely matter at all. In fact, even if it did stay in play, it would never cause you to get a coffer and a debt from your own gains (unless you gain with Vampire after playing this).
« Last Edit: May 23, 2019, 05:46:31 pm by GendoIkari »
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Gubump

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Re: Weekly Design Contest Thread
« Reply #2048 on: May 23, 2019, 05:47:01 pm »
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Let me put it this way, Segura:

In a 2P game, the most likely outcome is +1 Coffers and your opponent gets 1 debt. I would rather buy Scout.

In a 4P game, on the other hand, the most likely outcome is +3 Coffers and your opponents each get 1 debt. +3 Coffers alone is something I would buy for $8.

In other words, Revenant is a must-buy if you have 4P, balanced if you have 3P, and Scout tier with 2P. Sure, a lot of official cards scale a bit with player count, but not nearly to the same degree; the official cards that do scale with player count are balanced at their cost regardless of player count. This argument is less about whether cards should scale or not and more about the degree to which a card should be allowed to scale.

I agree about the player balance issues, but I don't think that +3 Coffers on your next turn, as a Duration, is that powerful for a . The Coffers being delayed a turn matters a lot; as well as the card just staying out more because of Duration.

Fair, but you get to use the Coffers whenever you want, and you don't even have to use all of them at the same time. It's like having a Gold that's delayed by one turn but doesn't take any space in your hand afterwards and can be used whenever. Except even better.

I don't think delaying an effect by one turn is that bad a drawback.
« Last Edit: May 23, 2019, 05:48:10 pm by Gubump »
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GendoIkari

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Re: Weekly Design Contest Thread
« Reply #2049 on: May 23, 2019, 05:47:39 pm »
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In this way, Witch doesn't become stronger.
I disagree. Junkers are rarely ignorable but sometimes they are. In this very situation in which you ignore a junker in a 2P game you would perhaps not do the same in a 4P game as the junk pool is larger. So not getting that Marauder in a 2P game might be fine, you can only get a max. of 10 Ruins. But in a 4P game, if you are the only player without a Marauder, you could end up with 40 Ruins.

This isn't correct, because all the other opponents are getting some of that junk as well. Just look at the math in a game where your opponent buys Witch and you don't:

2 player game: You end up with 10 Curses, your opponent ends up with 0.
3 player game, 1 opponent buys Witch, the other doesn't: You end up with 10 Curses, so does the other opponent.
3 player game, both opponents buy Witch: You end up with 10 Curses, each opponent ends up with 5.

The point is that each time a Witch is played in 3 player games, 2 Curses are given out (from the pool of 20). So you can't end up with all 20, or even more than 10, unless some players are using cards like Moat also.

In fact it's much worse in a 2 player game; where you have 10 Curse cards more than your opponent. In a 3 player game, if both opponents buy Witches, you only end up with 5 Curses more than your opponents.

4 player math works out the same way.
True that, I was wrong. But the junking frequency still increases (doubles from a 2P to a 3P game) which is why junkers (as well as trashers and some Reactions) become stronger with an increasing number of players.

But again, you're using stronger to mean "does more total stuff in the game". Your personal copy of Witch isn't stronger. The collective copies of Witch that all players have are stronger. You don't have a better reason to buy Witch over another card in 4 player than 2 player.
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