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Author Topic: How much would non-supply cards fetch on the open market?  (Read 2769 times)

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geeday

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How much would non-supply cards fetch on the open market?
« on: August 29, 2018, 11:46:30 pm »
+5

Certain cards don't go in the supply, they all say explicitly: "(This is not in the supply)." Many of these cards cost 0, some cost more, all of them have an * next to their cost (in the physical version) indicating that, while this is their "cost," you cannot actually buy them by paying this cost. My question is how would you price them if you were going to make them available on the "open" market?

Here's the list of cards along with their stated cost:

  • Spoils - 0
  • Madman - 0
  • Mercenary - 0
  • Bag of Gold - 0
  • Diadem - 0
  • Followers - 0
  • Princess - 0
  • Treasure Hunter - 3
  • Warrior - 4
  • Hero - 5
  • Champion - 6
  • Soldier - 3
  • Fugitive - 4
  • Disciple - 5
  • Teacher - 6
  • Will-o'-Wisp - 0
  • Imp - 2
  • Ghost - 4
  • Wish - 0
  • Bat - 2
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traces Around

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Re: How much would non-supply cards fetch on the open market?
« Reply #1 on: August 30, 2018, 01:20:26 am »
+3

This probably belongs in variants.

Anyways, first it should be noted that not all of these could actually work as supply cards since you can't separate then from their supply aspect - most notably Bat, where if you can get a Vampire from it, it may as well cost $5. I'll make a nice list here of the ones I think actually would work as supply piles.

Spoils: 3
Bag of Gold: 5
Followers: 4
Trusty Steed: 6
Treasure Hunter: 4
Hero: 5
Soldier: 3
Fugitive: 5 but can't cost that so doesn't work
Disciple (with a no self-gaining clause, else doesn't work): 6 and would be the single best card in Dominion by a fair amount
Imp: 3
Ghost: 5
« Last Edit: August 30, 2018, 01:22:22 am by traces Around »
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LastFootnote

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Re: How much would non-supply cards fetch on the open market?
« Reply #2 on: August 30, 2018, 01:44:48 am »
+11

I think you’re really undervaluing Ghost.

Followers at $4 would lead to awful, sloggy games. Oh man, they’d be so bad. Even at $5 it would make games terrible, but $4 is just nuts.
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faust

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Re: How much would non-supply cards fetch on the open market?
« Reply #3 on: August 30, 2018, 02:06:00 am »
0

Imp should cost $4, otherwise an Imp/X opening is trivially better than Silver/X.

Hero I think as is can't be priced. It's too good with Platinum and some kingdom Treasures. It has already been explored how to make it a kingdom card and the result is Tragic Hero.
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Holunder9

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Re: How much would non-supply cards fetch on the open market?
« Reply #4 on: August 30, 2018, 02:08:50 am »
0

I excluded the ones which I consider to be broken as Kingdom cards:

Spoils - 3
Bag of Gold - 5
Diadem - 6
Princess - 7
Treasure Hunter - 2
Warrior - 3
Hero - 5
Soldier - 3
Fugitive - 4/5 so undoable
Will-o'-Wisp - 2 is too cheap due to self-synergies, 3 seems too expensive
Imp - 4/5 so undoable
Ghost - 6/7
Bat - 4
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ipofanes

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Re: How much would non-supply cards fetch on the open market?
« Reply #5 on: August 30, 2018, 04:53:36 am »
0

I'd play Fugitive at €4; it's to Lab what Oasis is to Peddler. At €4, I would in many cases prefer it to Secret Passage but the cases where Secret Passage is better (rig Chariot Races, assemble Treasure Maps, make educated guesses with Wishing Well, line up Ruins with Death Cart or Provinces with Tournaments) are much more numerous than cases where I'd prefer Fugitive to Lab.
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Holunder9

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Re: How much would non-supply cards fetch on the open market?
« Reply #6 on: August 30, 2018, 06:01:10 am »
0

I'd play Fugitive at €4

Quote
Fugitive was an old old card, from the 2nd expansion before it split into Seaside and Hinterlands, that didn't exist previously because it was too strong at $4.
http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=13082.0


the cases where Secret Passage is better  are much more numerous than cases where I'd prefer Fugitive to Lab.
I disagee. Secret Passage is a unique card but its strength highly board-dependent whereas Fugitive is useful in nearly every deck. Even if you are totally thin you want a handsize-maintaining sifter to make things match.
I also don't think that your Oasis-Peddler = Fugitive-Lab maths works for numerous reasons with one being that the jump from 3 to 4 is far smaller than the jump from 4 to 5. It seems strange that Forum, a double Fugitive, is balanced at $5 while Fugitive would be a $4.5 but again, price/power comparisons are anything but straightforward in Dominion.
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ipofanes

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Re: How much would non-supply cards fetch on the open market?
« Reply #7 on: August 30, 2018, 06:43:03 am »
+3

It seems strange that Forum, a double Fugitive, is balanced at $5 while Fugitive would be a $4.5 but again, price/power comparisons are anything but straightforward in Dominion.

One could place Fugitive at $5 and give it a small bonus, like for instance a +Buy as an on-buy effect.
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Commodore Chuckles

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Re: How much would non-supply cards fetch on the open market?
« Reply #8 on: August 30, 2018, 07:57:35 am »
+5

He used Euros, so maybe he did mean $4.5.
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Jimmmmm

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Re: How much would non-supply cards fetch on the open market?
« Reply #9 on: August 30, 2018, 08:05:31 am »
0

It seems strange that Forum, a double Fugitive, is balanced at $5 while Fugitive would be a $4.5 but again, price/power comparisons are anything but straightforward in Dominion.

One could place Fugitive at $5 and give it a small bonus, like for instance a +Buy as an on-buy effect.

It could cost 9 debt (or $5 + 4d etc) and you gain another copy when you buy one.
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Screwyioux

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Re: How much would non-supply cards fetch on the open market?
« Reply #10 on: August 30, 2018, 09:10:06 am »
0


Princess - 7


Princess is an interesting because it would be BONKERS if a full ten of them existed. Still really good if you could only buy one, but probably fine at $6? Maybe even a strong $5?

If there's a full supply pile of them, though, then yeah $7, maybe even higher.
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GendoIkari

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Re: How much would non-supply cards fetch on the open market?
« Reply #11 on: August 30, 2018, 10:54:07 am »
+8

I don't think this belongs in variants; as far as I can tell the question isn't about literally playing a game with a house rule that you can buy these cards like they were in the supply. It's more of a though experiment that is questioning the relative strength of all these cards; and how much stronger a card is allowed to be based on how hard it is to gain one.
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GendoIkari

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Re: How much would non-supply cards fetch on the open market?
« Reply #12 on: August 30, 2018, 10:57:41 am »
+2

For travelers, are we keeping the Exchange clause in the supply version? Because if so, that makes Disciple and Hero extra crazy, because it's only 1 play away from Teacher or Champion.
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Screwyioux

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Re: How much would non-supply cards fetch on the open market?
« Reply #13 on: August 30, 2018, 11:19:22 am »
0

Agree with Tracer and Gendo, I can't think of a way that Disciple wouldn't be opaf.
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Dingan

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Re: How much would non-supply cards fetch on the open market?
« Reply #14 on: August 30, 2018, 01:00:20 pm »
0

I could see Champion as an Event that would be similar to Donate - would be debt only so both players could open it (or buy on T2, T3, etc.), and it drastically changes the entire flow of the game.
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Asper

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Re: How much would non-supply cards fetch on the open market?
« Reply #15 on: August 30, 2018, 01:36:38 pm »
0

Fugitive for a debt cost, like <6>, doesn't seem so bad?

Edit: Or how about 2$ and a Potion?
« Last Edit: August 30, 2018, 01:40:16 pm by Asper »
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crj

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Re: How much would non-supply cards fetch on the open market?
« Reply #16 on: August 30, 2018, 02:02:35 pm »
0

I could see Champion as an Event that would be similar to Donate - would be debt only so both players could open it (or buy on T2, T3, etc.), and it drastically changes the entire flow of the game.
Unlike Donate, where timing is relatively critical, it could possibly be more like a Landmark: a permanent game-altering effect which affects all players equally from the outset.

Obviously, anyone who was interested could try that out by playing a game where everyone begins with a Champion in play. I'm guessing it would suck, but I might be bored enough, in the company of other sufficiently bored people, some day. (-8
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faust

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Re: How much would non-supply cards fetch on the open market?
« Reply #17 on: August 30, 2018, 04:10:06 pm »
+3

Fugitive for a debt cost, like <6>, doesn't seem so bad?

Edit: Or how about 2$ and a Potion?
I don't think Fugitive passes the "I would get a Potion for this" test.
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aku_chi

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Re: How much would non-supply cards fetch on the open market?
« Reply #18 on: August 30, 2018, 04:39:37 pm »
+7

Fugitive (without exchange) at $4 would be fine.  Yeah, it's a strong opener and a generically good buy, but so is Ironmonger.  I don't see Ironmonger receive tons of hate.

A $4 Followers is clearly a bad idea.  In games without Curse trashing (fully 1/3rd of games), it would be a mandatory open and a good buy the next two $4+ hands.  Even in games where you can trash Curses, it would be an oppressive opener - if not a must-open.  At $5, Followers occasionally gives a big advantage to a 5/2 opening, and just empties piles too fast when it's good.  Followers could be an acceptable $6 card, I think.  You'd still buy it in an engine if it's the only handsize attack, or if you can handle the Estate better than your opponent can handle the Curse.
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crj

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Re: How much would non-supply cards fetch on the open market?
« Reply #19 on: August 30, 2018, 06:01:53 pm »
0

Agreed. Followers is better than Witch any time you're prepared to gain an Estate in exchange for Militia-ing the other players. But you'd choose Goons over Followers, so it needn't cost more than $6.
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Donald X.

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Re: How much would non-supply cards fetch on the open market?
« Reply #20 on: August 31, 2018, 10:43:25 am »
+8

At this point there's Secret Passage, so Fugitive would have to be a different card (and that card is Secret Passage) or have a weird cost (like it does).

Dark Ages tried "Gain an Estate, each other player gains a Curse" at $3, back when there was no Cornucopia. It's bad times.
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Chappy7

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Re: How much would non-supply cards fetch on the open market?
« Reply #21 on: August 31, 2018, 11:34:03 am »
+1

I think Spoils at 3 is too good.  I'd buy that in over silver pretty much always.  Spike to 5 almost guaranteed in the opening and then it kindly removes itself from your deck.  Either way it would be a really interesting kingdom card. 
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crj

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Re: How much would non-supply cards fetch on the open market?
« Reply #22 on: August 31, 2018, 12:37:02 pm »
0

Maybe the right cost for Spoils is 5 debt?

Even if it wasn't right, it would certainly be interesting!
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markusin

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Re: How much would non-supply cards fetch on the open market?
« Reply #23 on: August 31, 2018, 07:55:03 pm »
0

Fugitive for a debt cost, like <6>, doesn't seem so bad?

Edit: Or how about 2$ and a Potion?

Or like, $4 and 1 Debt? I know a card having a 1 Debt cost looks a bit weird, but mixing coin cost with Debt exists with Fortune.
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ackmondual

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Re: How much would non-supply cards fetch on the open market?
« Reply #24 on: September 01, 2018, 06:16:42 am »
0

I'd also add a clause that you're not allowed to buy these cards until at least after someone's performed their 2nd shuffle.  That should simulate the work put in to get the corresponding Supply card, and then that to Gain the non-Supply card.
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