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Author Topic: Anticipating Renaissance  (Read 1701 times)

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NoMoreFun

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Re: Anticipating Renaissance
« Reply #25 on: October 05, 2018, 08:14:25 pm »
0

+1 Card, +1 Villager is great as early game you will often not need to use the villager and can really accumulate them.

More likely I think we'll see

Villager Peddler
Action - $5
+1 Card
+1 Villager
+$1

Maybe? Nothing seems wrong with the card; as a basic Renaissance version of Baker. But even Baker had the setup clause to make it more interesting; That card seems too vanilla even for a set that focuses on simplicity.

Also, the teasers didn't mention a card with only 2 words.

And a card so simple could afford to have a special bottom (like Ducat) - not ruling it out at all.

It would be more interesting to prove that "+1 Card, +1 Villager" is a functional enough village for sure (as a $2 card), but the Peddler Variant would be more useful late game.
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NoMoreFun

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Re: Anticipating Renaissance
« Reply #26 on: October 05, 2018, 08:17:22 pm »
0

Now would be the time for cards that have the drawback of giving opponents Coffers/Villagers.
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crlundy

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Re: Anticipating Renaissance
« Reply #27 on: October 08, 2018, 07:45:31 pm »
+1

What do people think about this as an Artifact/Project? "At the start of your Buy phase, you may put a card from your hand onto your deck." Helps with terminal collisions.
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Kudasai

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Re: Anticipating Renaissance
« Reply #28 on: October 09, 2018, 08:47:26 pm »
0

What do people think about this as an Artifact/Project? "At the start of your Buy phase, you may put a card from your hand onto your deck." Helps with terminal collisions.

I think it would be too strong, but it's hard to say. Maybe this would be a good place to use NoMoreFun's idea of handing out Coffers and Villagers to opponents?

"At the start of your Buy phase, you may reveal and put a card from your hand onto your deck. If it is an... Action card, each other player gets +1 Villager; Treasure card, each other player gets +1 Coffers."

This seems incredibly weak though, which makes me think it might make a good Attack Artifact, if such a thing is feasible.   
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crlundy

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Re: Anticipating Renaissance
« Reply #29 on: October 09, 2018, 10:28:50 pm »
0

If it's strong, you can mitigate that by making it an expensive Project, or an easy to take Artifact (so that nobody has it for that long). It fits the Renaissance short-and-simple vibe. Mostly, it's just an ability that I have often wanted haha.
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kru5h

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Re: Anticipating Renaissance
« Reply #30 on: October 10, 2018, 04:04:23 am »
+1

I bet the "way to take a turn after the game would otherwise be over" is a project.

I've tried to design such a card before, and it would be much easier as a project.

Quote
Courthouse, Project,
When the game would end, instead take one extra turn, continuing turn order.

Holunder9

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Re: Anticipating Renaissance
« Reply #31 on: October 10, 2018, 07:47:40 am »
0

What do people think about this as an Artifact/Project? "At the start of your Buy phase, you may put a card from your hand onto your deck." Helps with terminal collisions.

I think it would be too strong, but it's hard to say. Maybe this would be a good place to use NoMoreFun's idea of handing out Coffers and Villagers to opponents?

"At the start of your Buy phase, you may reveal and put a card from your hand onto your deck. If it is an... Action card, each other player gets +1 Villager; Treasure card, each other player gets +1 Coffers."

This seems incredibly weak though, which makes me think it might make a good Attack Artifact, if such a thing is feasible.
I disagree and actually think that it is weaker than Scheme's effect. Scheme topdecks a played Action whereas this topdecks any unplayed card. It is nice in money but with Actions I guess that the amount of played Actions is on average larger than the amount of unplayed ones.
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greybirdofprey

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Re: Anticipating Renaissance
« Reply #32 on: October 10, 2018, 12:14:44 pm »
0

If I expect a Remodel variant, a card that protects against (some) Attacks, a Cursing Attack, a Silver gainer, a Peddler variant, an alt-VP card, another card with +2 Actions, another card that's very similar to an existing card, a card that almost everyone thinks is the biggest dud in the expansion, and a card that will get at least three times as much attention on this forum as all the other Renaissance cards, I'm probably going to get some right. I know DXV said in the teaser there's no Victory cards but I think there might be at least one as Project/Artifact.

Also, there's probably going to be some more interactions between Coffers/Villagers/Projects/Artifacts, aside from just Swashbuckler.

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LastFootnote

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Re: Anticipating Renaissance
« Reply #33 on: October 10, 2018, 01:07:49 pm »
+2

Also, there's probably going to be some more interactions between Coffers/Villagers/Projects/Artifacts, aside from just Swashbuckler.

That reminds me of the version of Villain I really wanted. I suggested the final version as well, but that's after Donald X. shot down my most-loved version. Some other playtesting group also loved it, can't recall with 100% certainly which one, but Donald X. tried it and hated it, and so much for that.

Villain: Action - Attack, $5
+2 Coffers
Each other player with 5 or more cards in hand discards one of them, costing at least $1 per Coffers token you have.

So yeah, the published version is a toned-down version of that. At least that's how I see it.
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ben_king

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Re: Anticipating Renaissance
« Reply #34 on: October 10, 2018, 01:14:55 pm »
+1

That version of Villain was my favorite Renaissance card that didn't make it.  So much fun (for people outside of California).
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Asper

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Re: Anticipating Renaissance
« Reply #35 on: October 10, 2018, 01:19:49 pm »
+1

Also, there's probably going to be some more interactions between Coffers/Villagers/Projects/Artifacts, aside from just Swashbuckler.

That reminds me of the version of Villain I really wanted. I suggested the final version as well, but that's after Donald X. shot down my most-loved version. Some other playtesting group also loved it, can't recall with 100% certainly which one, but Donald X. tried it and hated it, and so much for that.

Villain: Action - Attack, $5
+2 Coffers
Each other player with 5 or more cards in hand discards one of them, costing at least $1 per Coffers token you have.

So yeah, the published version is a toned-down version of that. At least that's how I see it.

Honestly, I'm glad he chose the other one. This just sounds absurdly brutal if you play it right. Always keep 3 tokens around, make players discard a card costing 5$ or more... That's not good times. It becomes even worse by the fact that you can't strike back if the only 5$ in your hand is Villain (which is loads more likely than it being the only card costing 2$ or more). Estates not giving any protection as long as you keep one measly token unused would have given a player who can open with this a huge advantage.

LastFootnote

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Re: Anticipating Renaissance
« Reply #36 on: October 10, 2018, 01:22:58 pm »
0

Honestly, I'm glad he chose the other one. This just sounds absurdly brutal if you play it right. Always keep 3 tokens around, make players discard a card costing 5$ or more... That's not good times. It becomes even worse by the fact that you can't strike back if the only 5$ in your hand is Villain (which is loads more likely than it being the only card costing 2$ or more). Estates not giving any protection as long as you keep one measly token unused would have given a player who can open with this a huge advantage.

Yeah, and that's the reason it didn't make it. As Donald X. said, "It was not fun to discard my fun, not even once." So agreed, probably for the best that it didn't make it. But however brutal it could be for the opponents, it was really fun to be the one playing it, balancing keeping tokens vs. spending them.
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LastFootnote

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Re: Anticipating Renaissance
« Reply #37 on: October 10, 2018, 03:29:28 pm »
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Estates not giving any protection as long as you keep one measly token unused would have given a player who can open with this a huge advantage.

This last part I disagree with, though. Barring Baker's setup or whatever, your first play of Villain is going to hit Estates. It's going to be turn 5 at the earliest that you can start hitting harder.
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Holunder9

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Re: Anticipating Renaissance
« Reply #38 on: October 10, 2018, 04:27:25 pm »
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Ignoring that the card could be too strong, it looks so much more interesting than the official Villain.
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Asper

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Re: Anticipating Renaissance
« Reply #39 on: October 10, 2018, 04:35:37 pm »
+1

Ignoring that the card could be too strong, it looks so much more interesting than the official Villain.
It's not about strength, it's about it being super unfun for all but one participant in this interaction. Saboteur doesn't suck because it's too strong, and neither does Possession.

Holunder9

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Re: Anticipating Renaissance
« Reply #40 on: October 10, 2018, 05:11:48 pm »
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True that, Possession sucks because it is extremly complicated. Getting mad that somebody uses your hand is plain irrational, it is not like anybody is taking anything from you, you still get a normal turn afterwards. Possession could have been, "take an extra turn", but that's not particularly interactive and we don't want Dominion to be multiplayer solitaire, do we?

About Saboteur, it doesn't suck because some folks loathe de-Remodelling of their cards. That's their issue. The cards sucks because it is weak. I still use it though, as my gaming group considers the card to be fun in the Kingdoms in which it is not so weak. Yeah, weird world, they actually find Saboteur fun.

Ths is hardly surprising as fun is always pretty subjective. Alice loses the Knight split in a 2P game and doesn't find ththe constant hammering fun. Bob loses the Cultist race in a game without trashers and despite of the zillion Ruins in his deck he enjoys the game he loses. You play Dominion with a Eurogamer and he might mind all Attacks whereas the wargamers and Ameritrashers might love 'em. Who cares, you cannot satisfy everybody. If you mind devastating Attacks like Torturer or Cultist (I never use that overpowered monster myself but hey, as I said, Bob might find that card fun) you can simply play without them.

Back to Villain, it could easily end up being Raider-level weak which is why I find it a pity that Donald went for a simple (OK, that's the motto of the expansion) and weak Attack instead of a LFN's stronger and more complex one.
Just think about the repercussions, getting always hit by a 5er-Villain could e.g. make you want to green earlier to have a Province to discard. The card creates nice trade-offs for the active player and influences gameplay of the passive player.
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LastFootnote

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Re: Anticipating Renaissance
« Reply #41 on: October 10, 2018, 05:16:38 pm »
+4

If enough people dislike the experience of playing with card, however "irrational" they may or may not be, that can kill a card. And I think that's as it should be.
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Holunder9

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Re: Anticipating Renaissance
« Reply #42 on: October 10, 2018, 05:24:40 pm »
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Sure, majorities matter and if a large part of one's playtesting group dislikes a card it doesn't matter whether the card is perfectly balanced, objectively fine and so on.
All I am saying is that people are different. Saboteur has been nixed and yet my playing group likes it, Rebuild still exists yet I wouldn't touch that thing with a ten-foot pole.
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Neirai the Forgiven

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Re: Anticipating Renaissance
« Reply #43 on: October 10, 2018, 05:26:08 pm »
+1

Honestly, I'm glad he chose the other one. This just sounds absurdly brutal if you play it right. Always keep 3 tokens around, make players discard a card costing 5$ or more... That's not good times. It becomes even worse by the fact that you can't strike back if the only 5$ in your hand is Villain (which is loads more likely than it being the only card costing 2$ or more). Estates not giving any protection as long as you keep one measly token unused would have given a player who can open with this a huge advantage.

Yeah, and that's the reason it didn't make it. As Donald X. said, "It was not fun to discard my fun, not even once." So agreed, probably for the best that it didn't make it. But however brutal it could be for the opponents, it was really fun to be the one playing it, balancing keeping tokens vs. spending them.

I'd have made you spend the Coffers to raise the minimum price of target. But then it would still make other players discard their fun, even if it cost a lot.
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LastFootnote

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Re: Anticipating Renaissance
« Reply #44 on: October 10, 2018, 05:29:11 pm »
+1

Sure, majorities matter and if a large part of one's playtesting group dislikes a card it doesn't matter whether the card is perfectly balanced, objectively fine and so on.
All I am saying is that people are different. Saboteur has been nixed and yet my playing group likes it, Rebuild still exists yet I wouldn't touch that thing with a ten-foot pole.

That's not remotely a fair comparison. If Donald X. ever were to make a true second edition of Dark Ages, I'm quite confident he'd remove Rebuild. He's said many times that he regrets it.

I'd have made you spend the Coffers to raise the minimum price of target. But then it would still make other players discard their fun, even if it cost a lot.

At first blush, that doesn't sound good to me. Too much potential for spending Coffers only to have it whiff.
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Holunder9

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Re: Anticipating Renaissance
« Reply #45 on: October 10, 2018, 05:43:56 pm »
0

Sure, majorities matter and if a large part of one's playtesting group dislikes a card it doesn't matter whether the card is perfectly balanced, objectively fine and so on.
All I am saying is that people are different. Saboteur has been nixed and yet my playing group likes it, Rebuild still exists yet I wouldn't touch that thing with a ten-foot pole.

That's not remotely a fair comparison. If Donald X. ever were to make a true second edition of Dark Ages, I'm quite confident he'd remove Rebuild. He's said many times that he regrets it.
I am not complaining (rather seemingly doing something similar as the game designer), this was just meant as an example for different preferences. It is like Alice saying that Village is too vanilla for her taste and Bob saying that his favourite village is Village.
You yourself would have obviously liked to see your version of Villain whereas DXV did not which is just another example of variety of tastes.
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trivialknot

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Re: Anticipating Renaissance
« Reply #46 on: October 10, 2018, 08:46:40 pm »
0

The teasers said there would be a trasher that you can't turn off, but we didn't get to see it in the previews.  Seems like an obvious Project idea, although I'm not sure how the details would work out.
Quote
Trasher you can't turn off - $2 Project
At the beginning of each turn, +1 card, then trash a card from your hand.

I'm not sure if this is a good turn 1 buy, or if it becomes a liability later on, especially in games without +buy.  Maybe it could cost $5 or $6 instead.  I put in the +1 card so it isn't garbage against discard attacks, but there are probably other ways of dealing with that issue.

Another idea:

Quote
Trasher you can't turn off - $6 Project
At the beginning of each turn, trash a card from your hand, and gain a non-victory card costing no more than it, to your hand.

So you could get a Transmogrify-type effect each turn.  But maybe that would just demolish piles, so I restricted it from milling Provinces.
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ConMan

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Re: Anticipating Renaissance
« Reply #47 on: October 10, 2018, 09:04:23 pm »
0

The teasers said there would be a trasher that you can't turn off, but we didn't get to see it in the previews.
I thought Sewers was confirmed as the always-on trasher.
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LastFootnote

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Re: Anticipating Renaissance
« Reply #48 on: October 10, 2018, 10:19:02 pm »
0

The teasers said there would be a trasher that you can't turn off, but we didn't get to see it in the previews.
I thought Sewers was confirmed as the always-on trasher.

No, itís not Sewers.
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ConMan

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Re: Anticipating Renaissance
« Reply #49 on: October 10, 2018, 11:00:42 pm »
0

The teasers said there would be a trasher that you can't turn off, but we didn't get to see it in the previews.
I thought Sewers was confirmed as the always-on trasher.

No, itís not Sewers.
Neat-o.
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