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[Galzria]

unvote

After rereading, the case against silver is a lot weaker than I thought it was. His first few (serious) posts are boldly supporting the flavorclaim plan, something that I don't think pushes him either way on the scum radar. From the offset it seems that the scum's first instinct would be to not support the plan, because they 1) don't want to bother thinking of a believable townie flavor to claim, 2) don't want to have to worry about someone else having that flavor, and 3) don't gain too much from the info regarding who has a PR from flavor claims because there are probably a lot of PRs here. However, he probably correctly recognized that this plan was never going to go to fruition, so there was little danger in supporting it as scum and little hope in supporting it as town. Thus, his reaction doesn't give him town points or scum points imo.

Then there is his defense of WCD, which makes a lot of sense to me. The only real case against WCD is that his content was below average near the beginning of the game, for which he gave a pretty legitimate excuse. Aside from that, he has...not supported his own wagon? idek

He has a TR on iguana which I don't think is necessarily far fetched. Iguana had a pretty strange and oddly specific SK plan but has been pretty townish since then? I guess? (ppe: I don't agree with the e votes but iguana isn't that scummy for it imo)

He voted for ashes which I am pretty inclined to do at this point.

He correctly said that EFHW was right about WCD.


yeah maybe a little scummy but not enough to warrant a wagon like this

Notes on this, because it struck me at the time of reading it:

1) Scum are probably provided with fake-claims. This is standard practice these days in flavor games as to not give town an unfair advantage for exactly this reason.

2) See 1)

3) This is likely false, although I get the premise in which you are going for. While there are "many players" (and thus "many PR's") for scum to choose from when making a night kill, knowing the flavors of town can definitely help them have an educated guess on who's PR's are better than others. Add in any number of other factors (blocking, redirecting, etc) - and it's definitely in scum's favor to obtain as much knowledge as they can, as early as they can.

[LaLight]

Vote count 1.8

Morgrim7 (1):, SpaceAnemone
WestCoastDidds (1): Hydrad
silverspawn (3): Awaclus, EFHW, gkrieg13
Galzria (1): DatSwan
chairs (4): Morgrim7, silverspawn, WestCoastDidds, iguanaiguana
Hydrad (3): Galzria, chairs, 2.71828.....
Not voting (1): ashersky

With 14 alive, it takes 8 to lynch. Day 1 ends, Tuesday, 18th of September, at 7am. This is in 17 hours

[Galzria]

I agree with the points on WCD and silver looks scummy.  Still like my vote on EFHW best though.

Gkrieg has also touched me as being off, and I haven't really been able to put a finger on it - but it's likely that I've felt that he's trying to play both sides. Like here, finding the points against WCD good, but also finding Silver scummy. I'm not saying that he can't do those things both at the same time - but he doesn't explore his opinions here, he just states them, and seems to state them in a way that plays up both people that are kinda being scum read.

[Galzria]

I don't think any plan suggested has been clearly scum-helping. Not if clearly means that almost all players would agree if they were honest.

Which is not to say that reactions aren't alignment indicative.

Let's lynch Awaclus vote: Awaclus

I can't tell if this from you is scummy or townie.  I think it is one of those two, but I don't remember.

Here's another example of the "both sides" kinda thing. And I get this was somewhat tongue-in-cheek, but it just rubs me wrong.

[Galzria]

K. Done with my list. Won't be around tomorrow really that much. And deadline is at like 4am my time, but I will be around the day right before for like the whole day.

I cannot find someone that I really like... mainly due to lack of participation by experienced players (which is weird bc no Robz).

It comes down to [WCD, Silver, 2.7].

I would like an answer from 2.7 before I decide.

I would like you to give more reasons for your list here - as it seemed like you were in the defending side of WCD previously, so it's strange to see her in your list here.

[Galzria]

Space seems townie this game.

Space has very little, and forgettable (sorry Space!), content. Does this make them townie?

[Galzria]

And now, for a bit, I'm going to find either a coffee or a beer, whichever I come across first.

[chairs]

Get a coffee stout, then you don’t have to decide!

[Morgrim7]

1) Scum are probably provided with fake-claims. This is standard practice these days in flavor games as to not give town an unfair advantage for exactly this reason.

If this is a thing, that changes my opinion on the plan and my read on awaclus a lot. Claiming right after I claimed seems like scum trying to earn free town cred and to trigger a mass flavor claim. I would vote for him if we had more time, but oop

I would rather lynch silver or chairs than hydrad. I wouldn't be opposed to lynching gkrieg or awa.

[WestCoastDidds]

I second the coffee stout.

I’m way more jammed up at work than I anticipated so I won’t be around until later. Apologies.

[Hydrad]

Hmm a wagon is forming on me. That's bad as I'm obviously town. Anyways I'm here till about 5 hours before deadline but not at deadline.

I'll go Vote: chairs to get a desperate second lynch off.

But nah in seriousness if no one wants wcd I'm fine with a chairs lynch. It's not like I'm jumping to the biggest wagon I can or anything

[gkrieg13]

Space seems townie this game.

Space has very little, and forgettable (sorry Space!), content. Does this make them townie?

Well, the content they did have was townie.  Doesn't quite seem like scum Space to me yet, but they aren't a town read for me anymore.

[gkrieg13]

I agree with the points on WCD and silver looks scummy.  Still like my vote on EFHW best though.

Gkrieg has also touched me as being off, and I haven't really been able to put a finger on it - but it's likely that I've felt that he's trying to play both sides. Like here, finding the points against WCD good, but also finding Silver scummy. I'm not saying that he can't do those things both at the same time - but he doesn't explore his opinions here, he just states them, and seems to state them in a way that plays up both people that are kinda being scum read.

It's scummy when you don't pick a side, it isn't scummy when you find someone scummy but still think they would try to make a valid D1 case on someone, even if that person is a partner, which is fully what I expect scum!silver to do.

[gkrieg13]

I don't think any plan suggested has been clearly scum-helping. Not if clearly means that almost all players would agree if they were honest.

Which is not to say that reactions aren't alignment indicative.

Let's lynch Awaclus vote: Awaclus

I can't tell if this from you is scummy or townie.  I think it is one of those two, but I don't remember.

Here's another example of the "both sides" kinda thing. And I get this was somewhat tongue-in-cheek, but it just rubs me wrong.

I just legitimately don't remember if silver tunnels Awaclus as town or as scum more.

[chairs]

I don't think any plan suggested has been clearly scum-helping. Not if clearly means that almost all players would agree if they were honest.

Which is not to say that reactions aren't alignment indicative.

Let's lynch Awaclus vote: Awaclus

I can't tell if this from you is scummy or townie.  I think it is one of those two, but I don't remember.

Here's another example of the "both sides" kinda thing. And I get this was somewhat tongue-in-cheek, but it just rubs me wrong.

I just legitimately don't remember if silver tunnels Awaclus as town or as scum more.

Yes

[silverspawn]

Next item - Silver has had a lot going on around him, but I'm not sure that he's scum:

Last game I played with him, he was scum, and I correctly read him as scum D1. The gist of my case against him was that he was subtly trying to direct town. Here, he also has posts where he seems to be attempting to direct players opinions... but I find it to be much more forward, and much less subtle. Silver said at the end of his scum game that what I was reading in him D1 wasn't because he was scum, but it was just that I didn't understand they Bayesian style of his speech... but honestly, I don't feel like that's correct - or at least, I definitely see a difference between this game and that one. I just feel like when he was scum, he was very subtle in what he said/did, and that's not really the case here. I think he's getting in trouble for the same things - but I think it's a false positive read that others are picking up on.

I think you're wrong about that the things you pointed out in your day 1 case were scum indicative, but probably correct about my bluntness being town indicative. Of course I said in the past that I think of this as a reliable tell for me, and I have definitely tried to emulate that as scum in the past, but even so I think it's still a valid tell. Also, regardless of what exactly it is that I do differently as scum and town, "feels different" is a reasonable starting point.

I also think that I am pretty hard to read, but nonetheless, town recently does a particularly terrible job at it. I feel like I'm lynched relatively more often as town than scum. as soon as I get my program to detect that kind of stuff I'm going to check whether that's actually true.

[silverspawn]

Space seems townie this game.

Space has very little, and forgettable (sorry Space!), content. Does this make them townie?

I think no. Space generally is fairly active, very calm, and makes a lot of sense as either alignment. Their inactivity is unusual but I don't think alignment indicative.

I think they're one of the hardest people to read in general, but gkrieg (I think) said he knows of some kind of tell in a recent game.

[silverspawn]

i can jump on the kill new players strat. I think iguana brings up good points

Vote:WCD

Second, and on the topic of WCD/Iguana, this is, by far, the scummiest post in the entire game, and I'm surprised that nobody to this point has brought this up. It just reeks as opportunistic.

That's a very reasonable thing to conclude and would be correct for most players, but  I think it's  wrong here. Hydrad is super conventionally scummy as town and perhaps somewhat less scummy as scum. I once set myself the goal of trying to "figure out" one particular player and really develop accurate reads on them, and I ended up choosing Hydrad. It mostly didn't work because I still find him frustratingly difficult to read, but I am pretty sure that super scummy looking opportunistic votes are not scum indiciative.

[silverspawn]

1) Scum are probably provided with fake-claims. This is standard practice these days in flavor games as to not give town an unfair advantage for exactly this reason.

If this is a thing, that changes my opinion on the plan and my read on awaclus a lot. Claiming right after I claimed seems like scum trying to earn free town cred and to trigger a mass flavor claim. I would vote for him if we had more time, but oop

I would rather lynch silver or chairs than hydrad. I wouldn't be opposed to lynching gkrieg or awa.

I second that this is absolutely a thing. No fakeclaims are basically not a thing in RMMs where flavor matters.

[silverspawn]

apologies for the double negative.

yeah so Hyrad is meh. chairs is fairly nullish but fine for day 1. gkrieg is the most interesting case, he does feel different this game, but I'm not sure if that makes him town or scum.

[silverspawn]

Somewhat leaning towards scum, actually.

[iguanaiguana]

Space seems townie this game.

Space has very little, and forgettable (sorry Space!), content. Does this make them townie?

No, it makes them scummy! Maybe... Or busy. Or both!

Let's lynch Space.

[iguanaiguana]

apologies for the double negative.

yeah so Hyrad is meh. chairs is fairly nullish but fine for day 1. gkrieg is the most interesting case, he does feel different this game, but I'm not sure if that makes him town or scum.

Yeah, he's been scum in a bunch of games recently and feels different... seems like a town tell to me.

[iguanaiguana]

i can jump on the kill new players strat. I think iguana brings up good points

Vote:WCD

Second, and on the topic of WCD/Iguana, this is, by far, the scummiest post in the entire game, and I'm surprised that nobody to this point has brought this up. It just reeks as opportunistic.

That's a very reasonable thing to conclude and would be correct for most players, but  I think it's  wrong here. Hydrad is super conventionally scummy as town and perhaps somewhat less scummy as scum. I once set myself the goal of trying to "figure out" one particular player and really develop accurate reads on them, and I ended up choosing Hydrad. It mostly didn't work because I still find him frustratingly difficult to read, but I am pretty sure that super scummy looking opportunistic votes are not scum indiciative.

I rolled scum with Hydrad a lot back in 2015, and find him easier to read.

He's cheerful and nonchalant about everything as town, but also lurks and doesn't always show up for important deadlines. Which in the past got him lynched a lot, or he didn't get nightkilled because he wasn't a big participator and would end up at LyLo and get lynched there.

As scum, he's not so cheerful, at least in my memory. The other stuff is pretty similar.

[iguanaiguana]

Irk I don't want to lynch a lot of people : ( Not sure what to do here.

Awaclus disappearing was/is scummy. Because he didn't start the game that way, he changed into it when the deadline approached. That's antitown.

Vote: Awaclus