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DeepCyan

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Storyteller
« on: August 27, 2018, 01:40:11 pm »
+7



Storyteller is a card unlike anything else in Dominion, being the only card to let you effectively spend your economy for massive amounts of non-terminal draw. In doing so, Storyteller both spends whatever virtual economy youíve built up so far (the card itself providing $1, making it a cantrip when played alone) while letting you play up to 3 of your treasures.  While this effect seems counterproductive at first glance, +1 card is almost always preferable to $1 as long as you still have cards to draw. Provided your drawn card is better than a Copper, turning your economy into cards will almost result in a better turn overall.

Weaknesses and Basic Strategy

Storyteller is a card that, at worst, plays itself as a cantrip, while potentially being one of the strongest sources of non-terminal draw in the game. What weaknesses could the card even have? In a vacuum, not many. Provided youíve trashed your Coppers and Estates, 3 to 5 Storytellers and an ample supply of Silver or Gold can be the sole source of draw in a thin deck that consistently draws itself. Being able to consistently acquire 10-20+ card hands non-terminally is a major boon, allowing you to spend your terminal actions on attacks or powerful payload cards such as Bridge.

On weaker boards, itís a perfectly valid strategy to build a ĎStoryteller + Big Money + Xí deck, ĎXí being a particularly strong terminal and/or a +buy card to take advantage of the massive hands this deck can generate. While most Storyteller-BM-X strategies can easily beat traditional BM, against more traditional forms of draw, Storyteller/BM decks will often fall behind when ran entirely unsupported. There are two main reasons for this: speed and reliability.

Storytellerís speed weakness is rarer, but simple. Storyteller decks aim to consistently draw most or all of your deck. When Storyteller is both unsupported and up against strong draw alternatives such as Wharf, Storyteller decks can have a hard time keeping up with the latterís explosive tempo. Other forms of non-terminal draw such as Hunting Party and Alchemist can also threaten Storytellerís viability on certain boards. Since Storytellers require both the card itself and 2 or 3 treasures to draw effectively, it can sometimes be quicker to simply buy and use other sources of draw over Storyteller (and its fuel) and when aiming to build a deck that draws itself.

However, more important than this is Storytellerís reliability problem. Storyteller decks are completely dependant upon having a Storyteller in their starting hand; while 4 Silvers and a Storyteller is a fantastic opener, 4 Silvers and a terminal is just a Big Money variant - slow and unimpressive. Even all of the strategies written in this article fall to pieces without access to a Storyteller in your opening hand. This makes Storyteller decks more prone to dud than other conventional draw engines. The best way to combat this is simply to have 1 or 2 more Storytellers than youíd otherwise need to fully draw your deck - having to play 1 or 2 Storytellers as cantrips every turn is well worth having a deck that runs consistently.

Supported Storyteller

Like most cards, Storytellerís strength in comparison to other draw sources depends upon the rest of the kingdom. While there are many cards that interact with Storyteller directly, letting you further capitalize on the cardís strengths (more on those later), the strongest synergies are those that patch up Storytellerís weaknesses, its speed and unreliability.

Storyteller with Savers

For a Storyteller deck to avoid dudding, you need an opening hand of money and a Storyteller. Since money is a pretty easy thing to consistently draw, getting a Storyteller into your hand every turn will effectively negate a Storyteller deckís chance of failure almost completely. Cards that can consistently put Storytellers into your hand every turn such as Haven, Scheme, and Save can let you fully draw with near 100% consistency, provided you still have ample Storytellers in the rest of your deck. In the absence of traditional saving cards, you can use cards such as Courtyard and Count to topdeck a Storyteller once youíre done drawing, or simply use supplemental Duration draw such as Haunted Woods to increase the likelihood of drawing a Storyteller in your opening hand.

Storyteller with Gainers

Why worry about having to buy all of your Storyteller fodder when you can have cards give you boatloads of treasure for free? Silver gainers such as Jack of All Trades, Amulet, and Masterpiece can fill your deck with excessive amounts of Silver incredibly quickly. This usually isnít a good thing, since Silver is an engine-clogging stop card in every other scenario. Storyteller, however, lets you turn your Silvers into incredibly potent non-terminal draw (Silvers effectively becoming Laboratories when fed to a Storyteller), while still providing fantastic economy from the Silvers you donít need for draw. Not needing to buy your Storyteller fodder lets you build at an exponentially faster rate, letting you spend your payload on more Storytellers or powerful actions. While rarer, Storyteller becomes even stronger when on the board with gold gainers such as Soothsayer or Bandit. Governor is an especially strong card with Storyteller, since it can both gain gold non-terminally and remodel them into Provinces in the late game. This being said, itís still important to not over-gain treasures in a Storyteller deck. Thoughtlessly gaining loads of Silver or Gold will still clog your deck, making it hard to actually find your Storytellers to play.

Storyteller with Kingdom Treasures

Storyteller is one of the three cards in the game (along with Black Market and Villa) that can put Treasures in play during your action phase, giving your action cards access to Kingdom Treasuresí special effects. Not only are most Kingdom Treasures simply much stronger cards overall when played as draw rather than as payload, but certain treasures can prove incredibly strong when played during your action phase. Feed Storyteller a Quarry? Your Workshops can now gain Grand Markets. Feed Storyteller a Royal Seal afterwards? Your Workshops can now topdeck Grand Markets!

Bank is an especially notable example of this - any treasures fed to Storyteller count as Ďin playí, and therefore add to Bankís total value while also helping you fill your hand with even more treasures to boost Bank! While this still takes some build-up without support, Bank-Storyteller can lead to explosive results when paired with +buy cards. Simply feeding 4 Storytellers 3 Treasures each puts all your Banks at $13 and counting, disregarding any treasures still in your hand! Platinum, while lacking any special effects, also deserves a special mention. Though expensive and hard to connect with Storyteller, Storyteller/Platinum provides near-unrivaled drawing power that can easily facilitate game-winning megaturns.

Storyteller with Virtual Coin

Storyteller has mixed results when played with Ďvirtual coiní, the economy generated by cards such as Market and Monument. Unlike treasures, you canít control how much of your virtual coin is spent; you spend it all, then draw accordingly. Non-terminal virtual coin usually works quite well with Storyteller decks, as they can be played similar to treasures and generally benefit from being played as draw. Terminal coin-generating actions donít work at all; the moment youíre spending actions to draw with Storyteller, youíre missing out on one of the cardís biggest strengths.

 Cantrip money from cards such as Peddler can situationally benefit Storyteller decks, though you lose a noticeable degree of control when utilizing these cards in a Storyteller deck. Did you play 6 Peddlers, then draw a Storyteller? It doesnít matter how many more cards you need to draw, youíre spending all $6 or not playing the Storyteller at all. This isnít to say that Storyteller and cantrip money are completely incompatible. Rather, caution is required when playing Storyteller with cantrip money. Think carefully when playing coin-generating actions before your last Storyteller. In some cases, it might be worth not playing your last Storyteller at all if youíd spend more coins than your drawn cards could get back.

Storyteller without Trashing

At first glance, youíd think Storyteller would be a significantly worse card with no trashing - after all, itís harder to align your Storytellers with your Golds with 7 Coppers and 3 Estates in the way. And while this is true, these 10 junk cards also apply to every other player in the game, no matter what cards they decide to go with. As well as using Silver and Gold to increase handsize, Storytellerís Copper-to-cantrip effect lets you cycle through your Coppers if need be. While using Storyteller as a glorified Forum isnít ideal, it makes drawing 4 Coppers and a Storyteller often preferable to drawing 4 Coppers and a Smithy.


Overall, Storyteller is a fascinating and versatile card - its reliance on vanilla Treasures makes it at least a semi-viable option in any kingdom, though depending on its support and competition, Storyteller can be totally dominant, completely outclassed, or anything in between. While Storyteller decks build and play quite differently from anything else in Dominion, the classic rules of building and balancing a coherent deck apply just as strongly. Knowing when to go for Storyteller, along with how to build your deck around Storyteller, can spell the difference between an awkward pseudo-BM deck and a spectacular 20-card megaturn. 
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Qvist

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Re: Storyteller
« Reply #1 on: August 28, 2018, 02:55:58 am »
+1

I think a comparism to Stables is needed as both use treasures to turn into draw. When is which card better?
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faust

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Re: Storyteller
« Reply #2 on: August 28, 2018, 03:33:37 am »
+6

However, more important than this is Storytellerís reliability problem. Storyteller decks are completely dependant upon having a Storyteller in their starting hand; while 4 Silvers and a Storyteller is a fantastic opener, 4 Silvers and a terminal is just a Big Money variant - slow and unimpressive. Even all of the strategies written in this article fall to pieces without access to a Storyteller in your opening hand. This makes Storyteller decks more prone to dud than other conventional draw engines. The best way to combat this is simply to have 1 or 2 more Storytellers than youíd otherwise need to fully draw your deck - having to play 1 or 2 Storytellers as cantrips every turn is well worth having a deck that runs consistently.
I feel like this misses the point of Storyteller's reliability issue a little. Any engine will dud if it doesn't get any draw into the starting hand. The reason that this is more of an issue with Storyteller is that these decks are usually bloated with Treasures.

I feel like the kingdom treasures section doesn't add a lot, especially since I never liked articles talking at length about specific synergies. It could use some trimming down, especially since the article is already a bit long.

In the "Storyteller without trashing" section , I think you massively undersell Storyteller-as-sifting. Storyteller can cycle 3 Copper without reducing handsize and without putting those Coppers into your discard. That makes it usually better than Forum (though you'd want some Forums to handle the Estates). The fact that it doubles as draw makes it amazing. I would argue that Storyteller is even more relevant in engines that do not trash.

I think you could focus some more on the importance of deck tracking. It is important as you play Storyteller to have a decent estimate of how many $ you need to feed to Storytellers in order to draw your deck. That's not always trivial, especially if your deck also contains cantrips or other forms of draw. If you overdraw with Storyteller, then that usually means you did something wrong.

I like the article overall though! These were just points that I thought could still be improved. I think it's great to have an article on this because it is a difficult card to wrap your head around.
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Holunder9

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Re: Storyteller
« Reply #3 on: August 28, 2018, 04:17:48 am »
+4

I think a comparism to Stables is needed as both use treasures to turn into draw. When is which card better?
The equivalence of paying and discarding breaks down after you shuffle. In other words, cards like Plaza and Stables make you want to (over)draw more than usual.
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DG

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Re: Storyteller
« Reply #4 on: August 28, 2018, 07:33:04 am »
0

For me, the basic maths of the storyteller is that you spend each coin to draw each card. If your deck is worth on average less than a coin, curses maybe, then a storyteller might be poor value for money (unless you do want storyteller to cycle rather than draw). As card quality goes up, the value for money goes up. All draw cards face this problem when considering their purchase cost but you have to consider this each time you play storyteller too.

'Virtual coin' is probably not the right term as it is just as real as any other coin. Trying to use coin from terminal actions with storyteller seems weak but I wouldn't discourage players from trying to build a fishing village-monument-storyteller deck if they want to.
Sifters like cellar are good with storyteller both for getting the right type of cards in hand and use with big hand sizes.
Card counting and deck memory are important with stoytellers. You have the most coins to spend if you can spend exactly the right number of coins on storytellers.
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crj

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Re: Storyteller
« Reply #5 on: August 28, 2018, 12:14:07 pm »
+1

For me, the essential difficulty in using Storyteller well is this:

You can't (without serious shenanigans) play any one card both to give Storyteller coin and to give you economy for your Buy phase. That's an either-or. To fund Storyteller, you need extra economy. But the more economy you add to your deck, the thicker it gets and the harder it is to draw Storyteller usefully.

All too often, I've seen someone play Storyteller, play some Treasures, draw lots of cards, play another Storyteller, play more Treasures, draw the rest of their deck, then mournfully reveal they've only got $4 left to spend having sunk something like $10 into drawing.

It would be good if the article could address that trade-off.

(That, to me, is a key difference between Storyteller and Stables: Storyteller puts Treasures into play, where Stables discards them. With a well-oiled Stables engine, you'll likely draw that Treasure back later in your turn so can count on it for economy.)
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aku_chi

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Re: Storyteller
« Reply #6 on: August 28, 2018, 12:45:01 pm »
+1

All too often, I've seen someone play Storyteller, play some Treasures, draw lots of cards, play another Storyteller, play more Treasures, draw the rest of their deck, then mournfully reveal they've only got $4 left to spend having sunk something like $10 into drawing.

This just sounds like a bad deck.  I think the only time I've had this experience is in a game with Mountebank and no trashing.
And Storytellers were still worth it to play Mountebank more often.
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AJD

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Re: Storyteller
« Reply #7 on: August 28, 2018, 12:59:39 pm »
+2

All too often, I've seen someone play Storyteller, play some Treasures, draw lots of cards, play another Storyteller, play more Treasures, draw the rest of their deck, then mournfully reveal they've only got $4 left to spend having sunk something like $10 into drawing.

This just sounds like a bad deck.

Right, and this article should be about how to avoid that pitfall and build a good Storyteller deck.
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aku_chi

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Re: Storyteller
« Reply #8 on: August 28, 2018, 01:56:03 pm »
+2

All too often, I've seen someone play Storyteller, play some Treasures, draw lots of cards, play another Storyteller, play more Treasures, draw the rest of their deck, then mournfully reveal they've only got $4 left to spend having sunk something like $10 into drawing.

This just sounds like a bad deck.

Right, and this article should be about how to avoid that pitfall and build a good Storyteller deck.

The only way you can, on net, decrease your economy by playing treasures to Storyteller is if your deck averages < $1 per card.  There's really nothing special about Storyteller here.  If your deck averages < $1 per card, your deck is straight bad.  Either:
  • It's the opening, in which case Storyteller isn't much different from Stables or Laboratory (it cycles more, but slightly reduces economy).
  • You have completely failed at Dominion fundamentals.  A Storyteller article cannot help you.
  • You are under very oppressive junking attacks.  Stables is a little better in these situations, but not much.  Really, if your deck is bad enough, Silver and especially Gold become better than non-terminal draw.  A Storyteller article could mention oppressive junking, but it seems pretty low priority.
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trivialknot

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Re: Storyteller
« Reply #9 on: August 28, 2018, 02:02:31 pm »
0

All too often, I've seen someone play Storyteller, play some Treasures, draw lots of cards, play another Storyteller, play more Treasures, draw the rest of their deck, then mournfully reveal they've only got $4 left to spend having sunk something like $10 into drawing.

This just sounds like a bad deck.  I think the only time I've had this experience is in a game with Mountebank and no trashing.
And Storytellers were still worth it to play Mountebank more often.
Wasn't there a legendary Dominion League championship match that involved Storyteller+Possession?  Storyteller could consistently draw Possession at the cost of any other payoff, which is exactly the kind of deck you want to build to defend against Possession.  I think the kingdom also had Mining Village as the only splitter, LOL.
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trivialknot

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Re: Storyteller
« Reply #10 on: August 28, 2018, 02:10:49 pm »
0

Solid article, BTW.  I agree with everything, although I think there should be less emphasis on specific synergies with kingdom treasures.

One mistake that I used to see streamers make, was getting into the mindset that Storytellers are for sifting coppers, therefore they should only play coppers with it.  For example, say you have a hand of Storyteller, 3 coppers, and a silver.  Rather than playing 3 coppers, you should play 2 coppers and a silver, because that's like sifting four coppers, despite only having three in hand.  That's my two cents.
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Chris is me

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Re: Storyteller
« Reply #11 on: August 28, 2018, 02:16:57 pm »
+3

Solid article, BTW.  I agree with everything, although I think there should be less emphasis on specific synergies with kingdom treasures.

One mistake that I used to see streamers make, was getting into the mindset that Storytellers are for sifting coppers, therefore they should only play coppers with it.  For example, say you have a hand of Storyteller, 3 coppers, and a silver.  Rather than playing 3 coppers, you should play 2 coppers and a silver, because that's like sifting four coppers, despite only having three in hand.  That's my two cents.

In general you should be paying the biggest treasure you have unless you would overdraw or would lose economy. Usually you are limited by either total storytellers in the deck or your access to the next one, and the best way to ensure you get them is to draw a lot early. Using Storyteller for Coppers is... fine, but then itís essentially a cantrip Cellar - nothing special for a $5.

I donít really even like promoting ďstoryteller as copper sfterĒ at all, honestly - because itís not really what the card is good at or why it is good at all, itís just a thing it can do.
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Screwyioux

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Re: Storyteller
« Reply #12 on: August 28, 2018, 03:17:03 pm »
0

Governor is an especially strong card with Storyteller, since it can both gain gold non-terminally and remodel them into Provinces in the late game. This being said, itís still important to not over-gain treasures in a Storyteller deck. Thoughtlessly gaining loads of Silver or Gold will still clog your deck, making it hard to actually find...

I kinda made this point before about most of the "gainers" section, but I maintain most of it is just as true without Storyteller as with it. Particularly the part about Governor. Storyteller can help you play your Governors more, but midturn gain-and-remodel isn't the part of Governor Storyteller even helps with.

Without some non-money effect you're trying to draw into, feeding Storyteller money is kind of value-neutral for your turn anyway, other than for cycling. So to me the claims that treasure gainers have some special utility for cycling or that shoving more silver/gold into the deck with gainers helps you get it under control because of Storyteller are a bit dubious.
« Last Edit: August 28, 2018, 03:20:09 pm by Screwyioux »
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Holunder9

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Re: Storyteller
« Reply #13 on: August 28, 2018, 03:31:22 pm »
0

Without some non-money effect you're trying to draw into, feeding Storyteller money is kind of value-neutral for your turn anyway, other than for cycling.
That's obviously wrong. If you have a hand of Storyteller, 3 Silver and a Province you can play Storyteller to temporarily transform those 3 Silvers into Laboratories. You end up with a hand of 8 cards which is more likely to hit $8 (assuming that you don' play badly and actually have 7 Silvers in your deck)
So even if your deck only consists of Silvers, Storytellers and Provinces and no cards that junk or provide extra Buys those Storytellers do something very useful.
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Screwyioux

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Re: Storyteller
« Reply #14 on: August 28, 2018, 03:35:48 pm »
0

Without some non-money effect you're trying to draw into, feeding Storyteller money is kind of value-neutral for your turn anyway, other than for cycling.
That's obviously wrong. If you have a hand of Storyteller, 3 Silver and a Province you can play Storyteller to temporarily transform those 3 Silvers into Laboratories. You end up with a hand of 8 cards which is more likely to hit $8 (assuming that you don' play badly and actually have 7 Silvers in your deck)
So even if your deck only consists of Silvers, Storytellers and Provinces and no cards that junk or provide extra Buys those Storytellers do something very useful.

Right, I'm with you and Aku Chi's point that the your $ per card should be greater than 1, so the cycling/draw/whatever isn't useless by itself. I still think the way it's presented framed by gainers is misleading.
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aku_chi

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Re: Storyteller
« Reply #15 on: August 28, 2018, 03:59:08 pm »
+1

Governor is an especially strong card with Storyteller, since it can both gain gold non-terminally and remodel them into Provinces in the late game. This being said, itís still important to not over-gain treasures in a Storyteller deck. Thoughtlessly gaining loads of Silver or Gold will still clog your deck, making it hard to actually find...

I kinda made this point before about most of the "gainers" section, but I maintain most of it is just as true without Storyteller as with it. Particularly the part about Governor. Storyteller can help you play your Governors more, but midturn gain-and-remodel isn't the part of Governor Storyteller even helps with.

Without some non-money effect you're trying to draw into, feeding Storyteller money is kind of value-neutral for your turn anyway, other than for cycling. So to me the claims that treasure gainers have some special utility for cycling or that shoving more silver/gold into the deck with gainers helps you get it under control because of Storyteller are a bit dubious.

Governor + Storyteller is amazing and I'm baffled that you don't see this.  Storyteller is great in a Governor deck for the same reason that trashing is; the less you have to play Governor for draw, the more you can use it for payload and the less you help your opponent.  We can play some Governor + Storyteller games sometime if you're interested.
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Screwyioux

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Re: Storyteller
« Reply #16 on: August 28, 2018, 04:08:20 pm »
0

Governor is an especially strong card with Storyteller, since it can both gain gold non-terminally and remodel them into Provinces in the late game. This being said, itís still important to not over-gain treasures in a Storyteller deck. Thoughtlessly gaining loads of Silver or Gold will still clog your deck, making it hard to actually find...

I kinda made this point before about most of the "gainers" section, but I maintain most of it is just as true without Storyteller as with it. Particularly the part about Governor. Storyteller can help you play your Governors more, but midturn gain-and-remodel isn't the part of Governor Storyteller even helps with.

Without some non-money effect you're trying to draw into, feeding Storyteller money is kind of value-neutral for your turn anyway, other than for cycling. So to me the claims that treasure gainers have some special utility for cycling or that shoving more silver/gold into the deck with gainers helps you get it under control because of Storyteller are a bit dubious.

Governor + Storyteller is amazing and I'm baffled that you don't see this.  Storyteller is great in a Governor deck for the same reason that trashing is; the less you have to play Governor for draw, the more you can use it for payload and the less you help your opponent.  We can play some Governor + Storyteller games sometime if you're interested.

I mean Governor is a great card, yes. Being able to play your Governors other than for draw is also great, so it follows the two are good together, but Governor gaining gold and remodeling it midturn is not the part where Storyteller helps. Governor does that part just as well on its own.
« Last Edit: August 28, 2018, 04:10:40 pm by Screwyioux »
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crj

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Re: Storyteller
« Reply #17 on: August 28, 2018, 04:41:15 pm »
0

The only way you can, on net, decrease your economy by playing treasures to Storyteller is if your deck averages < $1 per card.
Firstly, it's important to be clear that "deck" there means "cards you might draw", not the totality of cards you own. Things get more complicated if, say, you know the remainder of your draw pile is dross, but there's cool stuff in your discard pile.

Secondly, it may be obvious, but spending more on Storyteller than you have cards left to draw is a pity.

Thirdly, there are normally other ways on offer to draw cards. You not only want to boost your economy by playing treasures to Storyteller, you also want to do so better than the alternatives.

Fourthly, there's the issue of variance. If your deck is 25% Platinum, 75% victory cards, your deck averages $1.25 per card. If you have a hand of Storyteller, Platinum, 3*victory, playing Storyteller and Platinum will on average increase your spending power from $5 to $7.5 . However, if you have a hand of Cellar, Platinum, 3*victory, playing Cellar and discarding your victory cards will on average increase your spending power from $5 to $8.75 . That suggests to me there are definitely deck compositions that are conspicuously bad for Storyteller and/or conspicuously good for alternatives.

I emphasise I've not thought this through fully. I don't have answers. I just have questions I'd hope an article like this would answer.
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Chris is me

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Re: Storyteller
« Reply #18 on: August 28, 2018, 07:42:14 pm »
0

Governor is an especially strong card with Storyteller, since it can both gain gold non-terminally and remodel them into Provinces in the late game. This being said, itís still important to not over-gain treasures in a Storyteller deck. Thoughtlessly gaining loads of Silver or Gold will still clog your deck, making it hard to actually find...

I kinda made this point before about most of the "gainers" section, but I maintain most of it is just as true without Storyteller as with it. Particularly the part about Governor. Storyteller can help you play your Governors more, but midturn gain-and-remodel isn't the part of Governor Storyteller even helps with.

Without some non-money effect you're trying to draw into, feeding Storyteller money is kind of value-neutral for your turn anyway, other than for cycling. So to me the claims that treasure gainers have some special utility for cycling or that shoving more silver/gold into the deck with gainers helps you get it under control because of Storyteller are a bit dubious.

Governor + Storyteller is amazing and I'm baffled that you don't see this.  Storyteller is great in a Governor deck for the same reason that trashing is; the less you have to play Governor for draw, the more you can use it for payload and the less you help your opponent.  We can play some Governor + Storyteller games sometime if you're interested.

I mean Governor is a great card, yes. Being able to play your Governors other than for draw is also great, so it follows the two are good together, but Governor gaining gold and remodeling it midturn is not the part where Storyteller helps. Governor does that part just as well on its own.

What? How is this a useful thought - ďStoryteller isnít RemodelĒ essentially? Thatís not the only thing Governor decks do - they also need to draw cards, and often have an excess of Coin and many treasures. Thereís no need to qualify this advice with ďwell, it isnít literally RemodelĒ
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Screwyioux

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Re: Storyteller
« Reply #19 on: August 28, 2018, 08:54:02 pm »
+1

Governor is an especially strong card with Storyteller, since it can both gain gold non-terminally and remodel them into Provinces in the late game. This being said, itís still important to not over-gain treasures in a Storyteller deck. Thoughtlessly gaining loads of Silver or Gold will still clog your deck, making it hard to actually find...

I kinda made this point before about most of the "gainers" section, but I maintain most of it is just as true without Storyteller as with it. Particularly the part about Governor. Storyteller can help you play your Governors more, but midturn gain-and-remodel isn't the part of Governor Storyteller even helps with.

Without some non-money effect you're trying to draw into, feeding Storyteller money is kind of value-neutral for your turn anyway, other than for cycling. So to me the claims that treasure gainers have some special utility for cycling or that shoving more silver/gold into the deck with gainers helps you get it under control because of Storyteller are a bit dubious.

Governor + Storyteller is amazing and I'm baffled that you don't see this.  Storyteller is great in a Governor deck for the same reason that trashing is; the less you have to play Governor for draw, the more you can use it for payload and the less you help your opponent.  We can play some Governor + Storyteller games sometime if you're interested.

I mean Governor is a great card, yes. Being able to play your Governors other than for draw is also great, so it follows the two are good together, but Governor gaining gold and remodeling it midturn is not the part where Storyteller helps. Governor does that part just as well on its own.

What? How is this a useful thought - ďStoryteller isnít RemodelĒ essentially? Thatís not the only thing Governor decks do - they also need to draw cards, and often have an excess of Coin and many treasures. Thereís no need to qualify this advice with ďwell, it isnít literally RemodelĒ

That's not even close to what I said.
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Chris is me

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Re: Storyteller
« Reply #20 on: August 29, 2018, 09:01:46 am »
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The reason he brought up Governor being able to Remodel into Provinces, even though itís not extremely relevant to what Storyteller does, is that it provides further justification for the Treasure flooding that Governor enables. Additionally, Storyteller enables this strategic effect by providing a good source of nonterminal draw (that also deals with the Silvers youíll get). This seems worth noting, I donít really get why it wouldnít be brought up?
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Holunder9

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Re: Storyteller
« Reply #21 on: August 29, 2018, 10:51:59 am »
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Without some non-money effect you're trying to draw into, feeding Storyteller money is kind of value-neutral for your turn anyway, other than for cycling.
That's obviously wrong. If you have a hand of Storyteller, 3 Silver and a Province you can play Storyteller to temporarily transform those 3 Silvers into Laboratories. You end up with a hand of 8 cards which is more likely to hit $8 (assuming that you don' play badly and actually have 7 Silvers in your deck)
So even if your deck only consists of Silvers, Storytellers and Provinces and no cards that junk or provide extra Buys those Storytellers do something very useful.

Right, I'm with you and Aku Chi's point that the your $ per card should be greater than 1, so the cycling/draw/whatever isn't useless by itself. I still think the way it's presented framed by gainers is misleading.
I totally disagree. DeepCyan has rightly pointed out that Storyteller likes Silvers and Gold gainers (even double Treasure gainers like Dismantle and Treasure Trove might be viable with Storyteller) precisely because she can turn the gained Treasures into (Double)Labs but that this doesn't imply that you cannot have too many Treasures in a Storyteller deck. DeepCyan also pointed out that for consistency / risk management reasons you should aim to gain "too many" Storytellers.

For example when you play a normal engine you can soon reach the point where you want to get rid of Lucky Coin whereas a Storyteller deck reaches that point later or never. You seem to argue that this is not the case.
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