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[Hydrad]

but this actually saves us from the case when 2 doctors heal each other which is, well, unlikely. One can still heal the other and we'll have effectively 1 heal that night in this case. Better than 0, but still... I think healing whoever seems townier is a better choice

you have to remember the a doctor can still heal another doctor. its just both doctors can't heal each other.

So we don't even lose a heal in that scenario. The only way we lose a heal is if doctors both heal the same target if we do the 1-4 way.

[Swowl]

I do not like this plan. The primary reason is because the only potential downside of having everything be random is both doctor's proc each other and one of them is the NK target. Kind of slim chances. Def slim enough to not make a plan if that plan has any downside.

Assuming we do not lynch a cop or skum today - the pool of players to choose from a Doctor's PoV will on be a total of 9. Doctors take up 2 of those 9 slots, leaving 7 left. So either, the Doctor(s) that have the dead player in their pool remove that player from the rotation list, or they include them as usual knowing that they won't target them. Either way, all skum has to do is create an 4 players in a row that include the lynched player and 3 targets that are not skum - which is almost always going to be possible.

Here is an example of any given cop pool. The selection of NK/Cop targets by Skum is arbitrary:
Player1 -
Player2 -  Copped N1
Player3 - Lynched Day 1
Player4 - N1 NK Target

It does not matter where this pool is aside for the fact that skum would need to create it out of 4 players that does not include skum (to ensure a doc getting the shot off correctly on the NK does not mess with their results).

From here, it could go down a few ways:
a) NK target dies, Cop result is a VT - Skum now has learned Doctor is either Player 1 or Player 10. Bad for us.
b) NK target lives, Cop result is a VT - Skum now has learned a Doctor must exist within Player 1 or Player 10. They don't get the kill, but still worse then random.
c) NK target dies, Cop result is a Doctor - Skum gets a kill and knows who one of the Doctors are. Worse case scenario for us.
d) NK target lives, Cop result is a Doctor - Skum doesn't get a kill, but finds the Doctor. Worse than random.


There are like a bazillion different variations of how this could go down with the actual sign up list, but the concept remains the same. Also, to that point, I would like to point out that skum could try to direct the lynch today if this plan is accept to ensure the best pool of candidates to choose from.

Then on top of all of this, something I am not even getting into, is the potential downside town has on itself from the WIFOM the next day.

Don't like this plan. LL is an experienced player - skum points up the wahoo for pushing this.

[Swowl]

also skummy from Hydrad - who is also an experienced player.

[Swowl]

OK I am reading back and adding as I go - add Awaclus onto the list too.

[Swowl]

Vote:Awaclus

[Swowl]

corrected format

Vote: Awaclus

[hypercube]

At this point the odds of both doctors targeting each other is basically negligible (1/81 if they select targets randomly). I agree with Swan that the people pushing this idea are suspicious.

[Awaclus]

There are more people pushing this idea than there are scum, therefore pushing the idea is not suspicious.

[hypercube]

There are more people pushing this idea than there are scum, therefore pushing the idea is not suspicious.

This makes no sense. Town is capable of having scummy ideas, but they are still more likely to come from or be supported by scum.

[Awaclus]

There are more people pushing this idea than there are scum, therefore pushing the idea is not suspicious.

This makes no sense. Town is capable of having scummy ideas, but they are still more likely to come from or be supported by scum.

Yes it does. A lot of the time, scum doesn't want to draw attention to themselves by supporting an idea that is obviously scummy. Therefore, either the idea is not obviously scummy, or the people pushing it are probably not scum.

[hypercube]

There are more people pushing this idea than there are scum, therefore pushing the idea is not suspicious.

This makes no sense. Town is capable of having scummy ideas, but they are still more likely to come from or be supported by scum.

Yes it does. A lot of the time, scum doesn't want to draw attention to themselves by supporting an idea that is obviously scummy. Therefore, either the idea is not obviously scummy, or the people pushing it are probably not scum.

The idea can be scummy in the sense that it benefits scum without that being obviously the case, as it seems to have happened here.

[Swowl]

There are more people pushing this idea than there are scum, therefore pushing the idea is not suspicious.

This makes no sense. Town is capable of having scummy ideas, but they are still more likely to come from or be supported by scum.

Yes it does. A lot of the time, scum doesn't want to draw attention to themselves by supporting an idea that is obviously scummy. Therefore, either the idea is not obviously scummy, or the people pushing it are probably not scum.

these are two separate points.
Just because there are more skum then players pushing the idea does not mean that the players pushing it are not skum.

Also, given the newbie set up of the game... this is exactly the place where a plan would be suggested such as this in hopes it goes overlooked.

[Swowl]

all in all I care far less about the skumminess then about the fact that it should be random selection.

[Hydrad]

I'm fine with random if thats how we want it. But I would like to point out your theory has some flaws about how it can work.

I'll just make a super basic setup.

1. doc
2. doc
3. vt
4. vt
5. vt
6. vt
7. vt
8. vt
9. scum
10. scum

so in this scum could pick numbers 5-8. lynch 7. cop 6 and kill 8.

From here, it could go down a few ways:
a) NK target dies, Cop result is a VT - Skum now has learned Doctor is either Player 1 or Player 10. Bad for us.
b) NK target lives, Cop result is a VT - Skum now has learned a Doctor must exist within Player 1 or Player 10. They don't get the kill, but still worse then random.
c) NK target dies, Cop result is a Doctor - Skum gets a kill and knows who one of the Doctors are. Worse case scenario for us.
d) NK target lives, Cop result is a Doctor - Skum doesn't get a kill, but finds the Doctor. Worse than random.

so here if we get the a) result. scum hasn't really learned anything about where the docs are at all.
I will agree b) could be bad still
c) this can happen in all random also, doing this number setup doesn't change it at all I believe.
d) this also can happen in all random I would say the same amount of time.

I'd also say when a person dies from lynching I wouldn't count them in the numbers personally anymore but if we don't think this plan is good we don't have to go through with it so I don't even have to discuss this part really.

[Swowl]

I'm fine with random if thats how we want it. But I would like to point out your theory has some flaws about how it can work.

I'll just make a super basic setup.

1. doc
2. doc
3. vt
4. vt
5. vt
6. vt
7. vt
8. vt
9. scum
10. scum

so in this scum could pick numbers 5-8. lynch 7. cop 6 and kill 8.

From here, it could go down a few ways:
a) NK target dies, Cop result is a VT - Skum now has learned Doctor is either Player 1 or Player 10. Bad for us.
b) NK target lives, Cop result is a VT - Skum now has learned a Doctor must exist within Player 1 or Player 10. They don't get the kill, but still worse then random.
c) NK target dies, Cop result is a Doctor - Skum gets a kill and knows who one of the Doctors are. Worse case scenario for us.
d) NK target lives, Cop result is a Doctor - Skum doesn't get a kill, but finds the Doctor. Worse than random.

so here if we get the a) result. scum hasn't really learned anything about where the docs are at all.
I will agree b) could be bad still
c) this can happen in all random also, doing this number setup doesn't change it at all I believe.
d) this also can happen in all random I would say the same amount of time.

I'd also say when a person dies from lynching I wouldn't count them in the numbers personally anymore but if we don't think this plan is good we don't have to go through with it so I don't even have to discuss this part really.

my point wasn't to say that it was 100% skum can gain the upperhand, just that there are ways in which skum could gain the upper hand. with that being the case, I do not like the idea of the plan vs random. In random, they may be able to achieve RESULTS that are the same, but if they do they get them randomly, not because we allow them a chance at gaining results systematically.

[chairs]

(begin Reddit reference) Look that's all well and good but let's get back to focusing on the movie (end Reddit reference).

Plan is bad.

If Doctors are 1 and 2, and they both choose from "up to 4 below", 1 picks 3, 2 picks 3, both valid choices for them, prevents either from working. Doctors should pick from the entire pool.

vote: Awaclus and I'm p. sure that's L-1.

[LaLight]

(begin Reddit reference) Look that's all well and good but let's get back to focusing on the movie (end Reddit reference).

Plan is bad.

If Doctors are 1 and 2, and they both choose from "up to 4 below", 1 picks 3, 2 picks 3, both valid choices for them, prevents either from working. Doctors should pick from the entire pool.

vote: Awaclus and I'm p. sure that's L-1.

They don’t prevent each other from working if they have the same target

[LaLight]

Oh, i was just glad there was a plan. I am a really bad setup speculator and usually i leave it to smarter people, thanks Swan

I don’t agree this plan makes half the game scum

[LaLight]

If anything, vote: chairs

[infangthief]

I'm alarmed at how quickly we've reached L-1. Especially as the first two votes on the Awaclus wagon were pretty random.

Hydrad and UncleEurope, please could you either give a reason for keeping your vote on Awaclus, or else unvote?

[infangthief]

actually up to 4 places down from themselves. Say, doctors are 1 and 6, then 1 can heal 2,3,4,5 and 6 can heal 7,8,9,10. In no way doctors will choose each other

I like this plan.

Awaclus, how does this plan fit with your playstyle of denying scum as much information as possible?

[infangthief]

Hydrad: Voted for Awaclus, clearly Town because voting for Awaclus is always Town.

Chairs, please could you expand on this? Meta reasoning, or wagon incitement?

[infangthief]

And while I'm here asking questions of particular people, here's another one:

10/10 would lie as town again.

Uncleeurope (may I call you Eddie?) could you give us a percentage chance of how likely you are to lie as town in this particular game?

[LaLight]

actually up to 4 places down from themselves. Say, doctors are 1 and 6, then 1 can heal 2,3,4,5 and 6 can heal 7,8,9,10. In no way doctors will choose each other

I like this plan.

Awaclus, how does this plan fit with your playstyle of denying scum as much information as possible?

Good catch!

[LaLight]

Hydrad: Voted for Awaclus, clearly Town because voting for Awaclus is always Town.

Chairs, please could you expand on this? Meta reasoning, or wagon incitement?

It is a meta reasoning. There is a history of Town people voting for Awaclus all the time because of his playstyle