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Who deserves MVP?

Awaclus
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McMcsalot
- 5 (41.7%)
pingpongsam lol
- 5 (41.7%)

Total Members Voted: 12


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Author Topic: M118: Pacific Northwest Mafia (Game Over, Town Wins!)  (Read 14909 times)

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DatSwan

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Re: M118: Pacific Northwest Mafia (Day Two!)
« Reply #600 on: August 30, 2018, 12:34:29 pm »

Fine. I give up. I stand by my theory - i agree with the some of the downsides people point out - but in the end if Iím ge only one voting there - it ainít gonna do any good.

unvote



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Robz888

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Re: M118: Pacific Northwest Mafia (Day Two!)
« Reply #601 on: August 30, 2018, 01:15:56 pm »

We should keep in mind that the person who hammers is more likely to be Traitor than Mafia. Mafia doesn't know if they are hammering the Traitor--and that would be bad!--but Traitor knows. Therefore E's hammering of PPS is much safer from a scum perspective if E is Traitor.
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Dsell

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Re: M118: Pacific Northwest Mafia (Day Two!)
« Reply #602 on: August 30, 2018, 01:40:37 pm »

The thing about coaching the traitor is that it's super easy for scum to do it, because traitor knows mafia. Normally you would have to manage signaling to the traitor that you're mafia and that you're coaching them while appearing to everyone else as town, which is pretty impossible, but here, you only have to signal to the traitor who already knows that you're mafia that you're coaching them while appearing to everyone else as town, which is pretty easy to do under the guise of "setup analysis".

It's also noteworthy that so far, it looks like the traitor has actually done everything according to the coaching from Dsell and Galz.

It's wild to me that y'all think it's scummy to be doing setup analysis.

-This is a brand new setup we've never done on the site before
-People had details of the setup wrong, which could have significantly hampered town's ability to deduce correct information if left unchecked

I think you're significantly underestimating the players here if you don't think the traitor would have figured out some optimal moves to make, and planned them out. If I was scum, playing a new setup, I would study the hell out of it to figure out how I could screw town the most. If town just skims the setup and tries to play a regular game of mafia, town will lose. Town has to work just as hard or harder than scum to figure shit out and cut off scum's moves - or point out the moves (ideally, after the fact) that helped scum more than town.

So when you say that the traitor "has actually done everything according to coaching" I think we have a correlation-not-causation situation. Yeah the traitor has probably done some of the things that we pointed out the traitor might do - because they make sense for the traitor to do. But that doesn't mean they were influenced by us. Us putting in the same amount of work as the traitor will help us find them.
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Dsell

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Re: M118: Pacific Northwest Mafia (Day One!)
« Reply #603 on: August 30, 2018, 01:43:51 pm »

gkrieg13 - he is awesome! Considered as one of the best players of modern community, gkrieg always plays extremely pro-town and can guess the whole scum-team in his first post and be right. That's why, along with faust, he is usually a N1 kill.

I am starting my rereads now and I wanted to ask LaLight how well you think gkrieg is fitting in with his usual town play thus far?
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Awaclus

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Re: M118: Pacific Northwest Mafia (Day Two!)
« Reply #604 on: August 30, 2018, 01:46:43 pm »

It's wild to me that y'all think it's scummy to be doing setup analysis.

-This is a brand new setup we've never done on the site before
-People had details of the setup wrong, which could have significantly hampered town's ability to deduce correct information if left unchecked

I think you're significantly underestimating the players here if you don't think the traitor would have figured out some optimal moves to make, and planned them out. If I was scum, playing a new setup, I would study the hell out of it to figure out how I could screw town the most. If town just skims the setup and tries to play a regular game of mafia, town will lose. Town has to work just as hard or harder than scum to figure shit out and cut off scum's moves - or point out the moves (ideally, after the fact) that helped scum more than town.

So when you say that the traitor "has actually done everything according to coaching" I think we have a correlation-not-causation situation. Yeah the traitor has probably done some of the things that we pointed out the traitor might do - because they make sense for the traitor to do. But that doesn't mean they were influenced by us. Us putting in the same amount of work as the traitor will help us find them.

It's not that the traitor can't figure out the optimal strategy without help from better players, it's that the optimal strategy requires coordination between mafia and the traitor, and the only way they can coordinate is by having the mafia tell the traitor what to do because the traitor knows the mafia but not vice versa.
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Hydrad

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Re: M118: Pacific Northwest Mafia (Day Two!)
« Reply #605 on: August 30, 2018, 01:50:53 pm »

Just on a 15 minute break right now. But I'll state again I still prefer robz over gkrieg by far
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Joseph2302

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Re: M118: Pacific Northwest Mafia (Day Two!)
« Reply #606 on: August 30, 2018, 01:58:10 pm »

I have no idea whatís going on. Gkrieg hasnít remotely done anything as scummy as Galz and Dsell coaching the traitor or Robz with the quickwagon.
Agreed, I strongly prefer Robz to Gkrieg right now

Your read on robz was based on him pushing the quicklynch and then doing nothing. He has posted a bit more since then, no change in your read or reasons?
I still think he looks scummy
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Mafia Stats: (correct as of 2017)
Town: 22 games, 8 wins
Scum: 5 games, 3 wins

Robz888

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Re: M118: Pacific Northwest Mafia (Day Two!)
« Reply #607 on: August 30, 2018, 02:13:22 pm »

I'm a moderate on this "Galz and/or Dsell were coaching the Traitor" question. Might this have been what was going on? Sure. Is it an automatic? No.
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Joseph2302

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Re: M118: Pacific Northwest Mafia (Day Two!)
« Reply #608 on: August 30, 2018, 02:15:55 pm »

Just on a 15 minute break right now. But I'll state again I still prefer robz over gkrieg by far
Agreed
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Mafia Stats: (correct as of 2017)
Town: 22 games, 8 wins
Scum: 5 games, 3 wins

mcmcsalot

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Re: M118: Pacific Northwest Mafia (Day Two!)
« Reply #609 on: August 30, 2018, 02:23:47 pm »

Just on a 15 minute break right now. But I'll state again I still prefer robz over gkrieg by far
Agreed

Can you guys give me a reason or adress my case on gkrieg and explain why Iím wrong. You know be helpful instead of lazy and anti-town.

I swear I used to bunk it was silly the whole Faust always dies night one thing but over the last few games Iíve played itís really true that you kill faust and you kill 80% of towns effort. Me and him argue almost every game and I used to think itís some issue with the way we communicate but itís just whatís supposed to happen when two players have different reads, not this ďfor the record I still want to lynch X.Ē Explain to me why Iím wrong and your right because I think Iíve clearly explained why you are wrong and Iím right.
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Dsell

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Re: M118: Pacific Northwest Mafia (Day Two!)
« Reply #610 on: August 30, 2018, 03:46:13 pm »

Finished my reread of Gkrieg, also reread Mcmc's case on him.

I think Mcmc is VERY towny and I am glad he's doing so much today.

I've never played with gkrieg. LaLight and others have said that he's an amazing town player, often a n1 kill target. I haven't seen amazing town play here. I've seen a fair bit of confusion about the setup or the situation (Robz being in a different position on the wagon than initially thought, Robz having a scumslip that really wasn't actually a scumslip). I've seen pushing wagons on PPS, Robz, and Galz. I have seen almost zero "I think X person is being towny." So overall it's possible that he's not having his greatest game as town, but I get a stronger feeling that he is sowing and watering chaos as scum.

The arguments that LaLight, Awaclus, and Gkrieg have made about coaching the traitor - I admit these could have some merit to them. Especially Awaclus' point that in order to be truly optimal, mafia has to communicate their desires with the traitor. IMO this is something that the mafia/traitor can figure out independently and relatively easily, without having to talk in the thread. And I also am a strong believer that setup discussion can be valuable for town, for the reasons I've listed before. Nevertheless, I can understand the suspicion and maybe this is a reason that I would take another look at Galz in the future (not today - absolutely against lynching him today).

Insofar as this argument implicates me, I know it's wrong. But since it's coming from multiple people, I obviously don't think they're all scum. However, I think it's very likely that there is scum within this group, probably attempting to push more suspicion on 2 active players.

Vote: Gkrieg
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DatSwan

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Re: M118: Pacific Northwest Mafia (Day Two!)
« Reply #611 on: August 30, 2018, 03:49:00 pm »

thats L-2 btw
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Hydrad

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Re: M118: Pacific Northwest Mafia (Day Two!)
« Reply #612 on: August 30, 2018, 04:07:45 pm »

Just on a 15 minute break right now. But I'll state again I still prefer robz over gkrieg by far
Agreed

Can you guys give me a reason or adress my case on gkrieg and explain why Iím wrong. You know be helpful instead of lazy and anti-town.

I swear I used to bunk it was silly the whole Faust always dies night one thing but over the last few games Iíve played itís really true that you kill faust and you kill 80% of towns effort. Me and him argue almost every game and I used to think itís some issue with the way we communicate but itís just whatís supposed to happen when two players have different reads, not this ďfor the record I still want to lynch X.Ē Explain to me why Iím wrong and your right because I think Iíve clearly explained why you are wrong and Iím right.

Still at work so can't post much. But I'll give you an answer I know you will hate. Basically I have a reason but I think it's anti town to say what it is. Sorry
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Joseph2302

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Re: M118: Pacific Northwest Mafia (Day Two!)
« Reply #613 on: August 30, 2018, 04:22:52 pm »


The arguments that LaLight, Awaclus, and Gkrieg have made about coaching the traitor - I admit these could have some merit to them. Especially Awaclus' point that in order to be truly optimal, mafia has to communicate their desires with the traitor. IMO this is something that the mafia/traitor can figure out independently and relatively easily, without having to talk in the thread. And I also am a strong believer that setup discussion can be valuable for town, for the reasons I've listed before. Nevertheless, I can understand the suspicion and maybe this is a reason that I would take another look at Galz in the future (not today - absolutely against lynching him today).

This is why I think Gkrieg is somewhat towny, along with Awaclus and LL. I think there was some scum trying to communicate with the traitor. But Robz on the other hand isn't giving me a towny vibe.
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Dsell

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Re: M118: Pacific Northwest Mafia (Day Two!)
« Reply #614 on: August 30, 2018, 04:35:24 pm »

thats L-2 btw

Hey I still value using more of our time and I would still like to do at least a reread of Hyrdad and maybe some others. I'm not gonna be on constantly tonight but I would prefer not to see people hammer right away, even if we enough people are interested in the lynch.

In fact, unvote: gkrieg.

I fully intend to put my vote back on soon but I am spooked by the trigger fingers around here and I have more reading to do before day's end.
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gkrieg13

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Re: M118: Pacific Northwest Mafia (Day Two!)
« Reply #615 on: August 30, 2018, 04:43:01 pm »

I'll get to rereads later today hopefully.  Otherwise, I'll be V/LA starting tomorrow.
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DatSwan

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Re: M118: Pacific Northwest Mafia (Day Two!)
« Reply #616 on: August 30, 2018, 05:09:01 pm »

OK now that I have given up on looking at the cops, I have started looking at the not cops. Posting in segments based on importance because we have two days left and it will take me the rest of tonight to finish up.

Most important first.

GK:

1) I am just like on the top of the damn fence with this one. First major Town-Point for me comes at the end of D1 when he put PPS at L-1. The general consensus seemed to be everyone wanted to lynch PPS because they could flip Traitor. If GK is Mafia, he would NOT want that obviously. This led me to the skummy side of it - meaning if GK is the Traitor he would obv know that it was town and ect. I just cant entertain the idea at this point of a Non-Cop being the traitor. I even looked into it, and there is like 1 post to E! about "I couldn't believe you ended up being IC".. but it is nowhere near enough.

2) This Town-Point is negated by the fact that I CAN however, entertain the idea that both PPS and GK have probably played.... dozens? of games together. So GK could of been confident as Mafia that it was town!PPS

3) Other skummy things include
#213: Votes Dsell based in some way on them wanting to do free form claiming instead of sign up order - as they were second to last, if they are Mafia this would make sense.
#291: They were LITERALLY the only player in the entire game to feel the need to point out that... I NEVER CLAIMED! (which is totally fair, but is also skummy bc of where we are now)
#463: Not getting into it - but these are my reads - so while I cannot put a finger on it... suggesting skum will not kill within the cops bc of PoE is just offputting.
#458: The Joseph sheeping vote is weird. It took the 3-3 wagon at the time and turned it into 4-2 and Robz still had a live vote to use. (without going into detail GK, this is the large reason why I think there is skum between GK/Robz/Joseph. It will make more sense later after the other read posts).

and then there is this...

#543 - Claims to not understand why the Traitor has been assumed to be the fake cop instead of the other Mafia.

#557 - Next post. Scum slip case on Robz, regarding the gender he used to refer to skum. That is all fine and silly. Here is what is weird. As of GK's last post, they "did not understand why it had to be the Traitor as the fake cop" - this is to say, I am assuming at least, that they thought it was possible that fake cop could be regular mafia. In this very next post, their mindset has changed... the gender thing doesn't matter, it is that they said "I want to call this a scum slip, but I can't bc traitor knows mafia instead of the other way around." - I read that as "this seems skummy except for the fact it can't be because the Traitor has to be one of the cops". Those back to back posts do not follow the same mindset.... Far fetched, just pointing it out. Also if I caught skum on a skum slip while they were promoting a skum slip that would be just peaches.

I am not going to take the time to bullet point everything GK has done that i think could be towny. Let's just say I find their general gameplay to be towny combined with the fact that they have made several errors regarding the set up that they had to correct themselves about. I am marking that trait to this point as kind of towny - a) because I have done the same thing... probably more then they have, and b) upon thinking about it, I agree with Dsell's point about comprehending the set up as town.. which would mean, a skum player would probably be all over that shit.


That is a lot of me arguing with myself, which is why I was hesitant to look outside the cops.... As it appears GK is our best option... and I don't even really like that option all that much. Need to look at Robz for sure, and then I have one other I wanna read through before I decide though.

PPE - 1
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DatSwan

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Re: M118: Pacific Northwest Mafia (Day Two!)
« Reply #617 on: August 30, 2018, 05:24:16 pm »

Also before I get into the rest, there are essentially 2 players I am 100% unwilling to lynch today. Could absolutely change tomorrow, but for today they are:

Galz - 2 reasons. First, wayyyyyy to many people are attacking him for coaching. I personally do not believe he was... but even if he was, way too much hate. Second, I have obviously spent a lot of time considering fake claim reasons for the fake-cop and all that jazz... this is the defn of a set up where Galz would straight up volunteer to run that gambit. To do so he would want to be believable, so towards the front (but he tried for popcorn over sign up), and then obviously after getting that result - he claimed VT.

Dsell - Also the Coaching hate thing, and then obvious reasons... mainly that they are trying harder than the other 10 players put together. I choose to remove them now and re address at a later time.


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Robz888

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Re: M118: Pacific Northwest Mafia (Day Two!)
« Reply #618 on: August 30, 2018, 05:24:19 pm »

In fact, unvote: gkrieg.

I fully intend to put my vote back on soon but I am spooked by the trigger fingers around here and I have more reading to do before day's end.

This is overly cautious and bad!
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DatSwan

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Re: M118: Pacific Northwest Mafia (Day Two!)
« Reply #619 on: August 30, 2018, 05:25:46 pm »

In fact, unvote: gkrieg.

I fully intend to put my vote back on soon but I am spooked by the trigger fingers around here and I have more reading to do before day's end.

This is overly cautious and bad!

???????? are you just saying skummy shit on purpose at this point?
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Robz888

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Re: M118: Pacific Northwest Mafia (Day Two!)
« Reply #620 on: August 30, 2018, 05:31:40 pm »

In fact, unvote: gkrieg.

I fully intend to put my vote back on soon but I am spooked by the trigger fingers around here and I have more reading to do before day's end.

This is overly cautious and bad!

???????? are you just saying skummy shit on purpose at this point?

I am not. And what I said is not scummy. Voting for someone and them immediately unvoting them because heavens to betsy L-2 is a bridge too far is what's scummy.
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DatSwan

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Re: M118: Pacific Northwest Mafia (Day Two!)
« Reply #621 on: August 30, 2018, 05:32:56 pm »

also this is a wayyyyy back thought I just came to but whatever...

They killed faust. So, in regards to the fake-cop being Mafia vs Traitor - yes, the plan is easier to come up with as 2 players with communication, but wouldn't their play there would of been to keep him alive?
We wake up to Player X dead (let's assume VT), and the cops all out the results. They could then either create CC situation or not. Either way, without the faust flip... we would have to like... lynch faust right?

Just pointing out I think it is unlikely that they went with the plan they chose and then also chose to fake claim in either position 1 or 4.
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DatSwan

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Re: M118: Pacific Northwest Mafia (Day Two!)
« Reply #622 on: August 30, 2018, 05:33:35 pm »

In fact, unvote: gkrieg.

I fully intend to put my vote back on soon but I am spooked by the trigger fingers around here and I have more reading to do before day's end.

This is overly cautious and bad!

???????? are you just saying skummy shit on purpose at this point?

I am not. And what I said is not scummy. Voting for someone and them immediately unvoting them because heavens to betsy L-2 is a bridge too far is what's scummy.

we just ended day 1 like 3.5 days into the day. I am gonna go ahead and say that the worry is merited in this instance.
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Robz888

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Re: M118: Pacific Northwest Mafia (Day Two!)
« Reply #623 on: August 30, 2018, 05:34:59 pm »

we just ended day 1 like 3.5 days into the day.

The horror!
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iguanaiguana

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Re: M118: Pacific Northwest Mafia (Day Two!)
« Reply #624 on: August 30, 2018, 05:56:11 pm »

Thor's Well

Vote count 2.5

Galzria (2): Awaclus, gkrieg13
Robz888 (3): Joseph2302, Hydrad, Lalight
gkrieg13 (3): McMcsalot, Robz888, 2.71828...

not voting (3): Dsell, Galzria, DatSwan

With 11 alive, it takes 6 to lynch. Day 1 ends, Saturday, September 01, 2018, 05:30:00 pm
« Last Edit: August 31, 2018, 09:20:29 pm by iguanaiguana »
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