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Author Topic: Maximum Wishes gained in a turn?  (Read 573 times)

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Cave-o-sapien

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Maximum Wishes gained in a turn?
« on: August 13, 2018, 05:23:51 pm »
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This question came up in a league match chat today. What are the maximum number of wishes you can gain in a turn?
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silvern

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Re: Maximum Wishes gained in a turn?
« Reply #1 on: August 13, 2018, 08:30:33 pm »
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The question as phrased is pretty easy to answer--12, since this is the number of wishes present in the game, and it is fairly easy to gain all 12
(for example: 3 cards+Procession- Procession-Procession-Leprechaun-Leprechaun-Procession-Leprechaun-Leprechaun+ more cards + 2 magic lamps (one passed by masquerade).)

Harder is the question, how many times in a turn can you gain a wish? The answer ought to be higher, but I have no idea how to definitively determine a solution.
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faust

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Re: Maximum Wishes gained in a turn?
« Reply #2 on: August 14, 2018, 04:27:35 am »
+6

We modify everyone's favorite infinite loop:

Fewer cards I have found to loop infinitely.
6 cards, no Event

Kingdom: Overlord, Lurker, Raze, Watchtower, Crown, Mandarin

Setup: trash Mandarin
Deck: 5 Overlord, 2 Watchtower

You have 2 Overlord and Watchtower in your hand.

play Overlord as Crown
-- play Overload as Crown
---- play Watchtower
---- play Watchtower
-- play Overload as Crown
---- play Overload as Crown
------ play Overload as Crown
-------- play Overlord as Raze (trash itself)
-------- play Overlord as Lurker (gain Mandarin, reveal Watchtower to trash)
------ play Overload as Lurker (gain Overlord)
---- play Overload as Watchtower

Now you have 5 Overlord and Watchtower in your hand.

LOOP FROM HERE

play Overlord as Crown
-- play Overload as Crown
---- play Overload as Crown
------ play Overload as Crown
-------- play Overlord as Raze (trash itself)
-------- play Overlord as Lurker (gain Mandarin, reveal Watchtower to trash)
------ play Overload as Lurker (gain Overlord)
---- play Overload as an Action costing up to $5
-- play Overload as Watchtower

LOOP END

Use Band of Misfits and Ferry instead of Overlord to make this more practical.

We add Library, Village, Trader, Pathfinding to the kingdom. The setup is this:

Trash down deck with Trader to just 7 Villages, 4 Overlords, Watchtower, Trader, Wish, trashing all Silvers in the process. Put +1 card token on Overlord.

Start of turn: 7 Villages in hand. Play all, drawing 2 Overlords, Watchtower, Trader. The rest of the deck is Wish + 2 Overlords. Now we do:

play Overlord (drawing Wish) as Crown
-- play Overload (drawing Overlord) as Crown
---- play Overload (drawing Overlord) as Crown
------ play Overlord as Raze (trash itself)
------ play Overlord as Lurker (gain Mandarin, reveal Watchtower to trash)
-------- topdeck 3 Overlords
---- play Overload (drawing Overlord) as Lurker (gain Overlord, topdeck it)
-- play Overload (drawing Overlord) as Leprechaun (trash Gold with Watchtower, topdeck Wish)
« Last Edit: August 14, 2018, 11:48:52 am by faust »
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Since the number of points is within a constant factor of the number of city quarters, in the long run we can get (4 - ε) ↑↑ n points in n turns for any ε > 0.

Mic Qsenoch

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Re: Maximum Wishes gained in a turn?
« Reply #3 on: August 14, 2018, 09:50:54 am »
+3

We add Library, Village, Trader, Pathfinding and Expedition to the kingdom. The setup is this:

Trash down deck with Trader to just 7 Villages, 4 Overlords, Watchtower, Trader, Wish, trashing all Silvers in the process.

The turn before, buy Expedition. Put +1 card token on Overlord.

Start of turn: 7 Villages in hand. Play all, drawing 4 Overlords, Watchtower, Trader, Wish. Now we do:

play Wish (gain Crown, reveal Trader to nothing)
play Overlord (drawing Overlord) as Crown
-- play Overload as Crown
---- play Overload as Crown
------ play Overload as Crown
-------- play Overlord as Raze (trash itself)
-------- play Overlord as Lurker (gain Mandarin, reveal Watchtower to trash)
-------- topdeck 4 Overlords
------ play Overload as Lurker (gain Overlord, topdeck it)
---- play Overload as Leprechaun (trash Gold with Watchtower, topdeck Wish)
-- play Overload as Library, draw Wish + 4 Overlords

This looks like it works to me, so these are just nitpicks on the write up: I count 5 Overlords needed in the deck, and the Library doesn't really draw that much because the last 3 Overlord plays all draw a card (I don't think you even need the Library or other draw with +card on Overlord).
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RTT

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Re: Maximum Wishes gained in a turn?
« Reply #4 on: August 14, 2018, 11:10:48 am »
+5

just a thought. noone said you had to gain wishes from leprechaun. you could also trash a wish and gain it from the trash with lurker over and over a again.
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faust

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Re: Maximum Wishes gained in a turn?
« Reply #5 on: August 14, 2018, 11:49:37 am »
0

We add Library, Village, Trader, Pathfinding and Expedition to the kingdom. The setup is this:

Trash down deck with Trader to just 7 Villages, 4 Overlords, Watchtower, Trader, Wish, trashing all Silvers in the process.

The turn before, buy Expedition. Put +1 card token on Overlord.

Start of turn: 7 Villages in hand. Play all, drawing 4 Overlords, Watchtower, Trader, Wish. Now we do:

play Wish (gain Crown, reveal Trader to nothing)
play Overlord (drawing Overlord) as Crown
-- play Overload as Crown
---- play Overload as Crown
------ play Overload as Crown
-------- play Overlord as Raze (trash itself)
-------- play Overlord as Lurker (gain Mandarin, reveal Watchtower to trash)
-------- topdeck 4 Overlords
------ play Overload as Lurker (gain Overlord, topdeck it)
---- play Overload as Leprechaun (trash Gold with Watchtower, topdeck Wish)
-- play Overload as Library, draw Wish + 4 Overlords

This looks like it works to me, so these are just nitpicks on the write up: I count 5 Overlords needed in the deck, and the Library doesn't really draw that much because the last 3 Overlord plays all draw a card (I don't think you even need the Library or other draw with +card on Overlord).
You're right! This even allows us to simplify the loop to work with 1 Overlord less. I have made some edits.
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Since the number of points is within a constant factor of the number of city quarters, in the long run we can get (4 - ε) ↑↑ n points in n turns for any ε > 0.

GendoIkari

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Re: Maximum Wishes gained in a turn?
« Reply #6 on: August 14, 2018, 04:01:24 pm »
+5

I feel like we've reached the point in Dominion where the answer to all puzzles in the form of "what's the most ______" can by answered by "unbounded, here's the infinite loop".
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Re: Maximum Wishes gained in a turn?
« Reply #7 on: August 14, 2018, 09:07:39 pm »
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I feel like we've reached the point in Dominion where the answer to all puzzles in the form of "what's the most ______" can by answered by "unbounded, here's the infinite loop".

That's why in the few puzzles I've asked, I like to ask what is the highest bounded value possible.  It makes for way more interesting discussion (and is where faust's signature comes from).
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jonts26

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Re: Maximum Wishes gained in a turn?
« Reply #8 on: August 14, 2018, 11:16:19 pm »
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That's why you should ban certain cards. Like, how many can you play without lurker and overlord? Or without leprechaun and secret cave?
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jonaskoelker

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Re: Maximum Wishes gained in a turn?
« Reply #9 on: July 29, 2019, 06:02:48 am »
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I feel like we've reached the point in Dominion where the answer to all puzzles in the form of "what's the most ______" can by answered by "unbounded, here's the infinite loop".
You can design challenges that are inherently bounded above by the number of cards in the game.

For example, the poor house challenge (which I stole from Adam Horton), what's the most money you can lose by playing a Poor House—this is obviously bounded above by (approximately) the number of treasure cards in the game.

Or the top decking challenge: maximize the number of known cards on top of your deck. Mandarin gives you an easy score of 1, cartographer gives you an easy 4, etc.; obviously bounded by the number of cards in the game.

However, it feels like the puzzle design space around number-of-card bounds is at least 20% and maybe as much as 80% exhausted just by those two puzzles.

You could perhaps try "how many different [something]", though I suspect the answer will very often be "Black Market". There's also "how fast can you [something]", but without ruling out loops the answer is probably often "turn 1".

So I 80% agree: if you allow loops then either the design space is small or the answer is often trivial and easy.
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