Dominion Strategy Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Pages: 1 ... 11 12 [13] 14 15 ... 24  All

Author Topic: Newbie Mafia 12: Your Favorite Animal Mafia (Game Over! Town wins flawlessly)  (Read 70665 times)

0 Members and 2 Guests are viewing this topic.

faust

  • Board Moderator
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3376
  • Shuffle iT Username: faust
    • View Profile
Re: Newbie Mafia 12: Your Favorite Animal Mafia (Day 1!)
« Reply #300 on: August 21, 2018, 08:55:05 am »

As I keep explaining the argument is full of logical flaws at all levels because it assumes one vet is scum and then says don’t lynch them and then says we need to look for one scum in the other 6 newbies. That’s worse then a random lynch which means ruling vets out was never ever ever a good idea.
I don't mean to salvage the argument, I don't think it was pretty good. But it does give a reason for not lynching vets even if one of the vets is scum. That we should not lynch among the vets if no vet is scum should be relatively obvious.
Logged
You say the ocean's rising, like I give a shit
You say the whole world's ending, honey it already did

faust

  • Board Moderator
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3376
  • Shuffle iT Username: faust
    • View Profile
Re: Newbie Mafia 12: Your Favorite Animal Mafia (Day 1!)
« Reply #301 on: August 21, 2018, 08:56:35 am »

As I keep explaining the argument is full of logical flaws at all levels because it assumes one vet is scum and then says don’t lynch them and then says we need to look for one scum in the other 6 newbies. That’s worse then a random lynch which means ruling vets out was never ever ever a good idea.
I don't mean to salvage the argument, I don't think it was prettyvery good. But it does give a reason for not lynching vets even if one of the vets is scum. That we should not lynch among the vets if no vet is scum should be relatively obvious.
EBWOP

I guess it is correct without the correction, but it sure does sound strange.
Logged
You say the ocean's rising, like I give a shit
You say the whole world's ending, honey it already did

Uncleeurope

  • Pawn
  • **
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3
    • View Profile
Re: Newbie Mafia 12: Your Favorite Animal Mafia (Day 1!)
« Reply #302 on: August 21, 2018, 09:01:19 am »

So I think uncleeurope’s misread of phyphor post it stupid but 100% believable.

Fair

I think umbrage is scummy for thinking he deliberately did it.

Same, but I also just think he is overanalyzing my posts as to not let a scum!me slide past him. Because we know each other outside of this context he is looking at me with a scum bias so that I don't "beat" him.

I do not like the uncleeurope votes at all.

I’m still curious what uncleeurope thinks of my silvercase.

Wcd you mentioned that you didn’t have an opinion on if silverspawns don’t lynch vets argument was scummy but figured it was now void. But I feel like you are missing the point that it was a scummy argument to begin with and just because it is no longer valid doesn’t take away from the objectively scummyness. I can’t see why people found it okay for silver to rule himself out of the lynch pool due to the fear that losing two vets on day one would allow a third scum vet to run away with the game. As I keep explaining the argument is full of logical flaws at all levels because it assumes one vet is scum and then says don’t lynch them and then says we need to look for one scum in the other 6 newbies. That’s worse then a random lynch which means ruling vets out was never ever ever a good idea.

Right, I saw you ask this awhile back and never got around to it. I definitely lean more (generally speaking) to the side that avoiding killing a player group based on player group is bad. I also think he is under-appreciating us newbies, a lot of us are only new to this forum, and who even cares, logically looking at statements isn't something that require hours of gameplay, it's not like we require vets to catch scum.

And yeah, as you said, it assumes the vets are divided between town and scum, and when we kill a vet, we lose the 50/50 (saying there are 2 vets) and kill a town-vet, despite us voting based on sus-levels. It's weird.

I understand where the guy is coming from, though, he is thinking worst possible scenarios. But understanding the logic of something doesn't mean agreeing with it, so I have a mixed opinion on Silver.

Why does my opinion specifically matter here?
Logged
Don't worry, no one can read uncle correctly.

Uncleeurope Eddie

mcmcsalot

  • Explorer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 338
  • Shuffle iT Username: mcmcsalot
    • View Profile
Re: Newbie Mafia 12: Your Favorite Animal Mafia (Day 1!)
« Reply #303 on: August 21, 2018, 09:08:31 am »

objectively scummyness
I don't think I can take you seriously if you insist that there are objective scumtells on D1.

Your right, objective anti-town play, which ruling out a group of 3 players for what comes down to arbitrary reasons with flawed logic is. Objectively scummy it absolutely is not, I think it’s scummy
coming from silver especially since that group includes himself. But I am getting he sense others disagree.
Logged
Wins: M19, M21, M23, M24, M26, M39, M91, M94, M102, M104, M107, M114, M115
Losses: M20, M22, M25, M27, M30, M31, M35, M38, M40, M42, M46, M60, M90, M93, M96, M98, M100, M101, M106, M111, M113
Winrate: 38.2%(13/34) 29.6%(8/27), 71.4%(5/7)

Simon Jester

  • Golem
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 186
  • Shuffle iT Username: hockeyzemlan
  • changed life, changed everything
    • View Profile
Re: Newbie Mafia 12: Your Favorite Animal Mafia (Day 1!)
« Reply #304 on: August 21, 2018, 09:11:06 am »

Woha.

Unfortunate time to be occupied it seems. The gut feelings from Faust and now also WCD are bad and you should feel.. something else, I suggest.

Still on phone so quoting will be a mess but Phy, I genuinely thought you were saying no-lynch D1 was good, if anything see it as a clarification of what you actually said. I wasn't able to read straight.

I think Mcmc:s case on silver is rather weak. I myself would agree it seems better to rule out the vets at that position we were then. I might be influenced by the fact that hyper also have a case against silver and I still don't like what I'm seeing from them. Silver seems town, sure a mcmc/hyper team creating a wagon together is farfetched and bold but it could happen.

Umbrage: Why are you ruling out Hyper? WCD jumping on my wagon rubs me also the wrong way. Perfect timing for scum to join.

Umbrages comeback hits me as scummy too somewhat, might be the frustration thing, but the case against Europe seems also rather forced. Faust, how are your gut feeling about UoS now?

Ugh, scummery everywhere it seems right now. Game has started.

Coming back for real soon, see this as a quick recap.

(Pronoun issue: I think I'm going with a general they/them for almost everyone unless the player is well known by me since before. Hope that is ok with everyone.)
Logged
S

mcmcsalot

  • Explorer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 338
  • Shuffle iT Username: mcmcsalot
    • View Profile
Re: Newbie Mafia 12: Your Favorite Animal Mafia (Day 1!)
« Reply #305 on: August 21, 2018, 09:16:10 am »

As I keep explaining the argument is full of logical flaws at all levels because it assumes one vet is scum and then says don’t lynch them and then says we need to look for one scum in the other 6 newbies. That’s worse then a random lynch which means ruling vets out was never ever ever a good idea.
I don't mean to salvage the argument, I don't think it was pretty good. But it does give a reason for not lynching vets even if one of the vets is scum. That we should not lynch among the vets if no vet is scum should be relatively obvious.

Yes this gets at the flawed logic I keep mentioning. We should lynch a vet only if they are scummy, we should not lynch a vet only if they are not scummy. Silvers assertion that a reason to not lynch vets was if one is scum we don’t want the other two to die. It’s bad reasoning.

I also think it’s scummy that silver didn’t respond by saying, “yea the argument really doesn’t make sense” (which it doesn’t), he said “hey look I dropped the argument now that you filled in leave it alone” and “I still think it would be scary to have one scum vet left alive”. Both of which are null points.
Logged
Wins: M19, M21, M23, M24, M26, M39, M91, M94, M102, M104, M107, M114, M115
Losses: M20, M22, M25, M27, M30, M31, M35, M38, M40, M42, M46, M60, M90, M93, M96, M98, M100, M101, M106, M111, M113
Winrate: 38.2%(13/34) 29.6%(8/27), 71.4%(5/7)

WestCoastDidds

  • Ambassador
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 33
  • Shuffle iT Username: WestCoastDidds
  • Didds, ya'll
    • View Profile
Re: Newbie Mafia 12: Your Favorite Animal Mafia (Day 1!)
« Reply #306 on: August 21, 2018, 09:34:40 am »

So I think uncleeurope’s misread of phyphor post it stupid but 100% believable.

Fair

I think umbrage is scummy for thinking he deliberately did it.

Same, but I also just think he is overanalyzing my posts as to not let a scum!me slide past him. Because we know each other outside of this context he is looking at me with a scum bias so that I don't "beat" him.


Hmmmm... if UoS is overanalyzing your posts not to let scum!you(eddie) slide by him, then UoS would have to be town, right?
Logged
classic Diddsian meddling
I never got to read what Didds said, but whatever she's saying, she's right.

WestCoastDidds

  • Ambassador
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 33
  • Shuffle iT Username: WestCoastDidds
  • Didds, ya'll
    • View Profile
Re: Newbie Mafia 12: Your Favorite Animal Mafia (Day 1!)
« Reply #307 on: August 21, 2018, 09:47:31 am »

[quote author=mcmcsalot link=topic=18893.msg765632#msg765632 date=1534855060

I’m still curious what uncleeurope thinks of my silvercase.

Wcd you mentioned that you didn’t have an opinion on if silverspawns don’t lynch vets argument was scummy but figured it was now void. But I feel like you are missing the point that it was a scummy argument to begin with and just because it is no longer valid doesn’t take away from the objectively scummyness. I can’t see why people found it okay for silver to rule himself out of the lynch pool due to the fear that losing two vets on day one would allow a third scum vet to run away with the game. As I keep explaining the argument is full of logical flaws at all levels because it assumes one vet is scum and then says don’t lynch them and then says we need to look for one scum in the other 6 newbies. That’s worse then a random lynch which means ruling vets out was never ever ever a good idea.
[/quote]

Yeah, I get it. It didn’t seem that big of a deal when it happened and he wasn’t in a position, at that point, of defending himself or the other vets. It was more just chatter (to me, anyway) about how might proceed.

I see your point that in making the arg he created a circle of protection, but it didn’t seem especially strong or well defended. But I see that it was somewhat scummy or at least self-serving, but is that enough to overcome any of his other contributions?

Phy seems aggressive and not helpful.
UoS seems friendly and newb helpful, but not game helpful.

I had to go back and reread my take on Simon wherein I called him erratic and remember that he seems to be all over the place but then again, so am I. My feelings are likely being swayed by his day away and scummy reads of faust (who seems town to me).

Vote: Phyphor

Logged
classic Diddsian meddling
I never got to read what Didds said, but whatever she's saying, she's right.

WestCoastDidds

  • Ambassador
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 33
  • Shuffle iT Username: WestCoastDidds
  • Didds, ya'll
    • View Profile
Re: Newbie Mafia 12: Your Favorite Animal Mafia (Day 1!)
« Reply #308 on: August 21, 2018, 09:49:10 am »

On my phone...apologies for typos and sub-optimal quoting skills
Logged
classic Diddsian meddling
I never got to read what Didds said, but whatever she's saying, she's right.

silverspawn

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5301
  • Shuffle iT Username: sty.silver
    • View Profile
Re: Newbie Mafia 12: Your Favorite Animal Mafia (Day 1!)
« Reply #309 on: August 21, 2018, 09:53:47 am »

I feel an incrasing urge to vote mcmc for being incredibly annoying. vote: Awaclus

silverspawn

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5301
  • Shuffle iT Username: sty.silver
    • View Profile
Re: Newbie Mafia 12: Your Favorite Animal Mafia (Day 1!)
« Reply #310 on: August 21, 2018, 09:53:59 am »

vote: simon

Simon Jester

  • Golem
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 186
  • Shuffle iT Username: hockeyzemlan
  • changed life, changed everything
    • View Profile
Re: Newbie Mafia 12: Your Favorite Animal Mafia (Day 1!)
« Reply #311 on: August 21, 2018, 09:58:12 am »

vote: simon

Why are you voting me, again?

Awaclus?
Logged
S

mcmcsalot

  • Explorer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 338
  • Shuffle iT Username: mcmcsalot
    • View Profile
Re: Newbie Mafia 12: Your Favorite Animal Mafia (Day 1!)
« Reply #312 on: August 21, 2018, 09:59:41 am »

Wcd I think that what Europe was saying, that it’s scummy umbrage thinks he did it deliberately but it could just be town!umbrage being extra cautious about scum!europe since they know eachother. That makes sense to me.

Simon’s most recent post does nothing to make me feel townie toward him. He doesn’t defend himself at all saying the votes are bad though the case from Faust is somewhat old (I believe it had to do with an oportunistic vote on wcd). The ugh scummery everywhere does feels like frustrated scum.

I still want to look at how the Muenstercheese/phyphor wagon rose and fell but my lynch pool for the day has narrowed quite a bit.
Logged
Wins: M19, M21, M23, M24, M26, M39, M91, M94, M102, M104, M107, M114, M115
Losses: M20, M22, M25, M27, M30, M31, M35, M38, M40, M42, M46, M60, M90, M93, M96, M98, M100, M101, M106, M111, M113
Winrate: 38.2%(13/34) 29.6%(8/27), 71.4%(5/7)

mcmcsalot

  • Explorer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 338
  • Shuffle iT Username: mcmcsalot
    • View Profile
Re: Newbie Mafia 12: Your Favorite Animal Mafia (Day 1!)
« Reply #313 on: August 21, 2018, 10:01:03 am »

I feel an incrasing urge to vote mcmc for being incredibly annoying. vote: Awaclus

This is funny, and has to do with the meta of another player.
Logged
Wins: M19, M21, M23, M24, M26, M39, M91, M94, M102, M104, M107, M114, M115
Losses: M20, M22, M25, M27, M30, M31, M35, M38, M40, M42, M46, M60, M90, M93, M96, M98, M100, M101, M106, M111, M113
Winrate: 38.2%(13/34) 29.6%(8/27), 71.4%(5/7)

silverspawn

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5301
  • Shuffle iT Username: sty.silver
    • View Profile
Re: Newbie Mafia 12: Your Favorite Animal Mafia (Day 1!)
« Reply #314 on: August 21, 2018, 10:04:17 am »

There is a subtle thing going on here that I want to make explicit. Mcmc seems capable of interpreting the player reaction to his case as mixed, and will probably do so. However. The thing which people are mixed about is whether the argument [about not lynching vets] was good, which is not what matters because no-one thinks that anymore now that we have 5 vets rather than 3. Mcmc claims that the argument isn't legit, doesn't make sense, which is quite different. As far as I can tell, everyone who has expressed their view on this so far has acknowledged that the argument does in fact make sense (BECAUSE IT OBVIOUSLY DOES). So no-one is agreeing with you, mcmc, and that is because you're wrong. If you could stop mentioninng it that would probably be productive.

silverspawn

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5301
  • Shuffle iT Username: sty.silver
    • View Profile
Re: Newbie Mafia 12: Your Favorite Animal Mafia (Day 1!)
« Reply #315 on: August 21, 2018, 10:06:18 am »

Simon’s most recent post does nothing to make me feel townie toward him. He doesn’t defend himself at all saying the votes are bad though the case from Faust is somewhat old (I believe it had to do with an oportunistic vote on wcd). The ugh scummery everywhere does feels like frustrated scum.

Some agreement there.

faust

  • Board Moderator
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3376
  • Shuffle iT Username: faust
    • View Profile
Re: Newbie Mafia 12: Your Favorite Animal Mafia (Day 1!)
« Reply #316 on: August 21, 2018, 10:06:39 am »

I feel an incrasing urge to vote mcmc for being incredibly annoying. vote: Awaclus

This is funny, and has to do with the meta of another player.
3/10, insufficient explanation of joke made it less funny than it could have been.
Logged
You say the ocean's rising, like I give a shit
You say the whole world's ending, honey it already did

hypercube

  • Young Witch
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 139
  • Shuffle iT Username: xyrix
    • View Profile
Re: Newbie Mafia 12: Your Favorite Animal Mafia (Day 1!)
« Reply #317 on: August 21, 2018, 10:06:53 am »

I also misread phyphor's post to mean it wanted a no lynch; it wasn't exactly trivial to parse.

Thinking that saving the vets D1 could be good is a reasonable thought-- I thought it myself at one point. Then I posted it, thinking that it would be scummy if any of the vets vocally agreed with it. silver's defence has been focused mainly on whether saving the vets is, in a vacuum, a possible logical conclusion, which ignores whether having that thought and stating it is scummy or not. It also lets him deflect from the other points against him.

I am going to continue making scumreads based on how much energy people expend defending themselves vs. scumhunting. Since there are only two scum, self-preservation is significantly more important for scum than town at this point and we should exploit that difference.

PPE 10
Logged
I have sigs off.

silverspawn

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5301
  • Shuffle iT Username: sty.silver
    • View Profile
Re: Newbie Mafia 12: Your Favorite Animal Mafia (Day 1!)
« Reply #318 on: August 21, 2018, 10:08:44 am »

I am going to continue making scumreads based on how much energy people expend defending themselves vs. scumhunting. Since there are only two scum, self-preservation is significantly more important for scum than town at this point and we should exploit that difference.

I don't think that's a good standard. Generally, people defending themselves is a good thing. We shouldn't discourage that.

faust

  • Board Moderator
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3376
  • Shuffle iT Username: faust
    • View Profile
Re: Newbie Mafia 12: Your Favorite Animal Mafia (Day 1!)
« Reply #319 on: August 21, 2018, 10:12:52 am »

Unfortunate time to be occupied it seems. The gut feelings from Faust and now also WCD are bad and you should feel.. something else, I suggest.
Make me feel something else then!

Umbrage: Why are you ruling out Hyper? WCD jumping on my wagon rubs me also the wrong way. Perfect timing for scum to join.
In what sense is that perfect timing? The perfect time for scum to join a town wagon is never, or if they have to then as the very first vote. The time where scum really doesn't want to join because it looks exceedingly scummy is at L-2.
Logged
You say the ocean's rising, like I give a shit
You say the whole world's ending, honey it already did

faust

  • Board Moderator
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3376
  • Shuffle iT Username: faust
    • View Profile
Re: Newbie Mafia 12: Your Favorite Animal Mafia (Day 1!)
« Reply #320 on: August 21, 2018, 10:13:59 am »

I am going to continue making scumreads based on how much energy people expend defending themselves vs. scumhunting. Since there are only two scum, self-preservation is significantly more important for scum than town at this point and we should exploit that difference.

I don't think that's a good standard. Generally, people defending themselves is a good thing. We shouldn't discourage that.
What the pony said.
Logged
You say the ocean's rising, like I give a shit
You say the whole world's ending, honey it already did

WestCoastDidds

  • Ambassador
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 33
  • Shuffle iT Username: WestCoastDidds
  • Didds, ya'll
    • View Profile
Re: Newbie Mafia 12: Your Favorite Animal Mafia (Day 1!)
« Reply #321 on: August 21, 2018, 10:15:28 am »


What are the lynch pools looking like?
Logged
classic Diddsian meddling
I never got to read what Didds said, but whatever she's saying, she's right.

hypercube

  • Young Witch
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 139
  • Shuffle iT Username: xyrix
    • View Profile
Re: Newbie Mafia 12: Your Favorite Animal Mafia (Day 1!)
« Reply #322 on: August 21, 2018, 10:15:35 am »

I am going to continue making scumreads based on how much energy people expend defending themselves vs. scumhunting. Since there are only two scum, self-preservation is significantly more important for scum than town at this point and we should exploit that difference.

I don't think that's a good standard. Generally, people defending themselves is a good thing. We shouldn't discourage that.

OK, I should clarify. Defending yourself by explaining your thoughts and actions is good, defending yourself by deflecting instead is bad, especially early in the Day when a lynch is unlikely anyways.
Logged
I have sigs off.

hypercube

  • Young Witch
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 139
  • Shuffle iT Username: xyrix
    • View Profile
Re: Newbie Mafia 12: Your Favorite Animal Mafia (Day 1!)
« Reply #323 on: August 21, 2018, 10:17:52 am »


What are the lynch pools looking like?

I'm not voting for mcmc, WCD, or faust today. I would need some convincing to vote for UoS still.
Logged
I have sigs off.

Simon Jester

  • Golem
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 186
  • Shuffle iT Username: hockeyzemlan
  • changed life, changed everything
    • View Profile
Re: Newbie Mafia 12: Your Favorite Animal Mafia (Day 1!)
« Reply #324 on: August 21, 2018, 10:18:56 am »

Simon’s most recent post does nothing to make me feel townie toward him. He doesn’t defend himself at all saying the votes are bad though the case from Faust is somewhat old (I believe it had to do with an oportunistic vote on wcd). The ugh scummery everywhere does feels like frustrated scum.

Some agreement there.

I don't defend myself because I don't see much to defend against. Faust has a gutread seemingly coming from my use of the word fairly and that I encourage players in a newbie-game, yours I haven't seen or missed and WCD just jumped on going with the vets. It's nothing, it's bad and it's wrong.
Logged
S
Pages: 1 ... 11 12 [13] 14 15 ... 24  All
 

Page created in 0.14 seconds with 20 queries.