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Author Topic: Newbie Mafia 12: Your Favorite Animal Mafia (Game Over! Town wins flawlessly)  (Read 70660 times)

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Uncleeurope

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Re: Newbie Mafia 12: Your Favorite Animal Mafia (Day 1!)
« Reply #275 on: August 20, 2018, 10:14:47 pm »

Ahkay, so you didn't think I was scummy until after you voted for me. Fair enough.

You mean where I pointed out after you changed your vote to faust that switching your vote for no good reason made you look bad?

And that you tried to claim I was voting just to save my skin?

And now you're trying to claim I said you were scummy after my vote?

Either you're scum, and you're deliberately trying to muddy the water to save yourself, or you're a townie who chooses not to read what I've posted.

Ahkay, when you gave your 2 point reasoning the uneven voting I had caused didn't make the list so I missed it. I was only examining that post when determining motivation.

And I read your initial post in a misleading way, after re-reading it, I can see what your intent was, you were saying that I was trying to get nobody to lynch, I read it that you were trying to get nobody lynched. Hence me asking for clarification so many times, because it made no sense.

Sorry for the confusion.
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Re: Newbie Mafia 12: Your Favorite Animal Mafia (Day 1!)
« Reply #276 on: August 20, 2018, 10:30:54 pm »

Catching up now, I find it frustrating that I post at my normal time Saturday, am busy Sunday and suddenly there's all this talk about me disappearing because the game sped up so I have relatively fewer posts.

Anyway, I'm glad the game picked up, anything specific anyone wants me to comment on/answer?
Otherwise I'll just post my big thoughts and possibly move my vote.
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UmbrageOfSnow

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Re: Newbie Mafia 12: Your Favorite Animal Mafia (Day 1!)
« Reply #277 on: August 20, 2018, 11:44:25 pm »

Because evening out the vote is a good mafia tactic because it does one of two things:

1) makes it less likely that anyone (especially your fellow scum) will be lynched (good for the mafia-wolves)
2) makes it so that if the voted for person does get the votes their way (whilst you're absent) there is plausible deniability when they turn out to be innocent.

If you can unvote then unvoting avoids (2).

In any case, there seems to be no good justification for Uncle to keep changing their vote.

Can't help myself, have to theorypost:

I love to even out wagons as town, the moment when two wagons are even forces people to take a stand and make a choice, and when you look back at votes on later days once you have some flips it can provide a lot of information.

By the same token, having a vote somewhere and moving it is generally better for town than unvoting. Information and actual stances on issue that people can look back on are better for town, and around here we usually do arrive at a lynch. And that's why we announce L-1.
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UmbrageOfSnow

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Re: Newbie Mafia 12: Your Favorite Animal Mafia (Day 1!)
« Reply #278 on: August 20, 2018, 11:46:17 pm »

As for the possibility that one of my partners resides with Cube or Phy, the obvious counter would be I am voting for cube and phy is voting for me. And while such things are not proof (votin' for friends be a strat) it is something to consider and my only defense to the claim. *Shrugs*

I find it weird that... Eddie (I know his real name, and that's really throwing me) goes out of his way to address this
and defends himself with this:
That being said, my case it that since a decent chunk of people are saying cheese has a good shot at being evil. (At least from what I can tell, a lot of people appear to be saying opinions halfwayishly.) Well, cheese voted for me. That's the best defense I got right now.

If a replacement for cheese is inevitable, I would like to wait a bit to see how his replacement responds before settling a vote in that direction.

Ima Vote: hypercube

He doesn't have a vote yes, as far as I can see, and that makes him a safer pick than phyphor.

So you don't want to lynch either of the players who are voting for you who you think are scummy?

Also, the misrep (misrepresentation) of Phyphar's intro comment on No Lynching (#198) strikes me as deliberate.

I'm happy with my vote where it is.
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UmbrageOfSnow

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Re: Newbie Mafia 12: Your Favorite Animal Mafia (Day 1!)
« Reply #279 on: August 20, 2018, 11:48:46 pm »

I absolutely will not vote for: Faust, WestCoastDidds, or hypercube today.

I'd prefer to lynch one of Simon or Uncleeurope.
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faust

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Re: Newbie Mafia 12: Your Favorite Animal Mafia (Day 1!)
« Reply #280 on: August 21, 2018, 12:36:09 am »

Catching up now, I find it frustrating that I post at my normal time Saturday, am busy Sunday and suddenly there's all this talk about me disappearing because the game sped up so I have relatively fewer posts.
That is not a fair assessment. You had not posted once in nearly 48 hours. When you are close to being proddable, it is fine for us to talk about you disappearing.
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UmbrageOfSnow

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Re: Newbie Mafia 12: Your Favorite Animal Mafia (Day 1!)
« Reply #281 on: August 21, 2018, 12:44:06 am »

Catching up now, I find it frustrating that I post at my normal time Saturday, am busy Sunday and suddenly there's all this talk about me disappearing because the game sped up so I have relatively fewer posts.
That is not a fair assessment. You had not posted once in nearly 48 hours. When you are close to being proddable, it is fine for us to talk about you disappearing.

The comments I was referring to were before that. And I'm probably extra salty about it because of a past game where a similar thing happened.
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Uncleeurope

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Re: Newbie Mafia 12: Your Favorite Animal Mafia (Day 1!)
« Reply #282 on: August 21, 2018, 12:50:15 am »

So you don't want to lynch either of the players who are voting for you who you think are scummy?

Also, the misrep (misrepresentation) of Phyphar's intro comment on No Lynching (#198) strikes me as deliberate.

I'm happy with my vote where it is.

I said I didn't want to vote for them, which is different. I didn't want to be misconstrued as defensive when I had other motivations, and that doesn't even matter, because I did vote for them. Both of them, despite the possibility of being misconstrued. Like, that vote you put in your quote was for cube, one of the people in question... So I dunno what your point is there.

As for me misreading Phy's comment, why would I do that as a scum, intentionally antagonize a townie as a scum to a point where he is convinced I am evil, like... what? I am genuinely confused about that angle. If I did intentionally misrep him as scum, it has only brought more attention to scum!me and caused me to be seen as more evil by Phy (and apparently you, and who knows whoever else) with no gain to myself.

I am currently trying to put myself into a situation where I would do that play, and it's not happening for me. (This statement means nothing to you people, because it is easily fabricated, I don't really care though, gunna put it out there) But day1 just aggressively lying about crap other people say as a scum...

And why would I admit misreading him as scum...? Wouldn't I double down? I dunno, read other crap I do as scummy all you want, but that one is just weird.

It's also one of the weirdest misreads I could have done.


This turned out to be ramble-y, just trying to sort through my thoughts right now.
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Re: Newbie Mafia 12: Your Favorite Animal Mafia (Day 1!)
« Reply #283 on: August 21, 2018, 12:53:06 am »

Is it a thing now where we have to announce V/LA if we are worried one weekend day is going to be busy? Because if someone checks in once on a given day, then has a busy weekend day, then checks in at the normal time the next day, that's 48 hours. I'm annoyed at the concept that this is breaking the rules. Especially on a weekend.

Today was also very busy so that made it worse, but jeez
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UmbrageOfSnow

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Re: Newbie Mafia 12: Your Favorite Animal Mafia (Day 1!)
« Reply #284 on: August 21, 2018, 12:59:34 am »

Ima Vote: hypercube

He doesn't have a vote yes, as far as I can see, and that makes him a safer pick than phyphor.

So you don't want to lynch either of the players who are voting for you who you think are scummy?

I said I didn't want to vote for them, which is different. I didn't want to be misconstrued as defensive when I had other motivations, and that doesn't even matter, because I did vote for them. Both of them, despite the possibility of being misconstrued. Like, that vote you put in your quote was for cube, one of the people in question... So I dunno what your point is there.
I know what was said, I'm talking about motivation. You didn't want to put a vote in a place where it would make as much progress toward lynching one of the people you have a scumread on, and therefore would want to see lynched if you are Town. I think that comes from knowing they are town and actually being defensive and knowing how it looks but still thinking it's the best play.

You're pointing out that the vote I quoted is on cube, which should be obvious from the context of the quote that it was one of the people you're talking about, but that does serve to discredit my point to people not reading this closely enough.
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Uncleeurope

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Re: Newbie Mafia 12: Your Favorite Animal Mafia (Day 1!)
« Reply #285 on: August 21, 2018, 01:02:10 am »

Going to walk everyone through my misread, because defensiveness kicked in, here we go:



Vote: Uncleeurope

Partially to save my own back, but also because setting up three of us to share the votes (by switching to Faust) means we are unlikely to lynch on Day 1.

He gives his first reason for voting me with "Saving my own back" then follows up with "but also setting up the three of us to share the votes"

Which seems to me, because no noun/pronoun exists in part 2, that the reason for him voting me was that IT/(Phy) was "setting up the three of us to share the votes" I just subconsciously threw in his pronoun there and moved on to the next bit. (probably because the most recent person to attach the second phrase to in the sentence was "my") Which states "So we are unlikely to lynch"

The part under that goes into more detail on what he means (and rereading that bit 3 times is what finally made it click for me what he actually meant) but I just read it in the context of what the my mistake was.

Obviously the intent was that Uncleeurope was "setting up the three of us to share the votes"


I dunno, sorry again for this... This is an annoying tangent to get caught up in.
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Re: Newbie Mafia 12: Your Favorite Animal Mafia (Day 1!)
« Reply #286 on: August 21, 2018, 01:10:20 am »

As for me misreading Phy's comment, why would I do that as a scum, intentionally antagonize a townie as a scum to a point where he is convinced I am evil, like... what? I am genuinely confused about that angle. If I did intentionally misrep him as scum, it has only brought more attention to scum!me and caused me to be seen as more evil by Phy (and apparently you, and who knows whoever else) with no gain to myself.
I'm not saying it was about being antagonistic, it's about wanting someone to lynch and jumping on flimsy reasoning (i.e. repeating Simon's misreading.) It doesn't look like solving the game, it looks like finding excuses to have scum reads (which you need to have.)

And results mean nothing, you didn't know how it would go down. I don't think any scum ever do something they know won't work out, but that doesn't mean everything always works out perfectly.

And why would I admit misreading him as scum...? Wouldn't I double down? I dunno, read other crap I do as scummy all you want, but that one is just weird.
Why would you ever double down when caught misreading something? You're scum, you need a scumread, town!Simon (I don't think you are likely partners, so if you're scum I doubt he is too, and vice versa) makes a bizarre misreading of a post to find someone scummy for flimsy reasons, you jump on the same thing hoping it will take off, and if it doesn't and the newb defends decently the heat will fall on Simon and you can just say "sorry, should have read closer."

That's the thought process I'm proposing, and that feeling of deliberateness from you is why I'd rather vote you than Simon.
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UmbrageOfSnow

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Re: Newbie Mafia 12: Your Favorite Animal Mafia (Day 1!)
« Reply #287 on: August 21, 2018, 01:17:51 am »

Partially to save my own back, but also because setting up three of us to share the votes (by switching to Faust) means we are unlikely to lynch on Day 1.

In general we want to lynch every day, but whilst Day 1 is a day with little information which makes it hard to do a good lynching if we don't lynch anyone we run the risk of having the Mafia take out the good townies (be it because they're good at Mafia or have had to role-claim to save their skin).
It's unclear if you mean that a no-lynch D1 is good or not. It's very much NOT good to no-lynch here. Sure, due to the little information we have it's likely we are hitting town, but the information the lynch is gathering is key to have a useful D2. Without a lynch we are doomed to repeat D1 only with fewer players left.

Maf will most likely kill out the best/towniest town players by their NK no matter what we do. Scum has not that much influence over our lynch though, which is why it's so important to use, also in D1.
As for Phy, him piggybacking off of cheese, who was uber-scummish, doesn't help his case. I know they have the same role.

Then phy comes in with the goal of not lynching anyone while putting me at vote #3. Super aggressive way to not kill someone. His initial post just struck me as odd, and I get the feeling that would be the case regardless of who he voted for, but I am willing to admit that defensive bias might play into this. I dunno, phy just doesn't sit right with me. And this confusion is ultimately why I went with cube first.

As for the possibility that one of my partners resides with Cube or Phy, the obvious counter would be I am voting for cube and phy is voting for me. And while such things are not proof (votin' for friends be a strat) it is something to consider and my only defense to the claim. *Shrugs*

And as for not being concerned about being voted on a bunch, I have always thought denial is the best medicine for panic.
This is the interaction I'm talking about.
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faust

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Re: Newbie Mafia 12: Your Favorite Animal Mafia (Day 1!)
« Reply #288 on: August 21, 2018, 01:38:00 am »

Is it a thing now where we have to announce V/LA if we are worried one weekend day is going to be busy? Because if someone checks in once on a given day, then has a busy weekend day, then checks in at the normal time the next day, that's 48 hours. I'm annoyed at the concept that this is breaking the rules. Especially on a weekend.

Today was also very busy so that made it worse, but jeez
It is, very clearly, breaking the rules:
The Standard Rules:

6. Players must post once every 24 hours.
And there is a good reason to have that rule, as we need to deal with people who are not going to be active quickly in order to keep the game fun.

That said, I would be happy with a universal ruling that says weekends count as a single day for all mafia purposes.
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faust

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Re: Newbie Mafia 12: Your Favorite Animal Mafia (Day 1!)
« Reply #289 on: August 21, 2018, 01:53:10 am »

And why would I admit misreading him as scum...? Wouldn't I double down? I dunno, read other crap I do as scummy all you want, but that one is just weird.
Why would you ever double down when caught misreading something? You're scum, you need a scumread, town!Simon (I don't think you are likely partners, so if you're scum I doubt he is too, and vice versa) makes a bizarre misreading of a post to find someone scummy for flimsy reasons, you jump on the same thing hoping it will take off, and if it doesn't and the newb defends decently the heat will fall on Simon and you can just say "sorry, should have read closer."

That's the thought process I'm proposing, and that feeling of deliberateness from you is why I'd rather vote you than Simon.
People sure have strange ideas of what scum does. Can you point me to any game at all where scum did something comparable?
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faust

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Re: Newbie Mafia 12: Your Favorite Animal Mafia (Day 1!)
« Reply #290 on: August 21, 2018, 01:59:03 am »

2) it/its

Wait, really? I don't have a problem with that but it strikes me as so unusual that I want to make sure you aren't joking.

I don't joke about pronouns. They aren't a joking matter. And, yes, the correct pronoun for me, someone who doesn't have a gender, is "its". The pronoun "it" has been used to dehumanise people because of the implicit assumption that all people have a gender, but I assume most people here are enlightened enough to recognise that this isn't necessarily the case.

I agree on it (its pronoun choice...sigh) being weird out of the gate and the “it’s gonna be a no lunch” and saying zippo about it’s experience. Super strange to me, but not sure if it’s scummy yet.

Also, can we stop with the passive-aggressive sighing at my pronouns, thanks?
I very much agree that those posts were uncalled for and would suggest the people that did them apologize.

Phypor/muenstercheese have done absolutely nothing towny in their two posts.

What, precisely, would you like me to do on D1?
Here again is a proponent of the silly idea that D1s are pointless it seems. They are not. They are only if everyone is lazy and fails to do anything like you did. We have a good deal of content already. You might not necessarily find scum D1, but it is very common to have a bunch of solid townreads by the end of D1 if played correctly.
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faust

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Re: Newbie Mafia 12: Your Favorite Animal Mafia (Day 1!)
« Reply #291 on: August 21, 2018, 02:01:20 am »

I see WCD already apologized. Nevermind then.
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faust

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Re: Newbie Mafia 12: Your Favorite Animal Mafia (Day 1!)
« Reply #292 on: August 21, 2018, 02:08:09 am »

Why exactly do you think uncleeurope is mafia because he evened the votes out by voting for Faust. I strongly disagree that any vote at that time period was more or less likely to get a lynch through and we were not in a deadline scramble situation. So from the outside your reasoning looks flawed, and I would like you to flesh it out.

Because evening out the vote is a good mafia tactic because it does one of two things:

1) makes it less likely that anyone (especially your fellow scum) will be lynched (good for the mafia-wolves)
2) makes it so that if the voted for person does get the votes their way (whilst you're absent) there is plausible deniability when they turn out to be innocent.

If you can unvote then unvoting avoids (2).
1) I think any vote placed more than 48 hours before the deadline has a negligible impact on whether there will be a lynch.
2) Why would there be plausible deniability in that case?
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silverspawn

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Re: Newbie Mafia 12: Your Favorite Animal Mafia (Day 1!)
« Reply #293 on: August 21, 2018, 03:13:27 am »

I don't joke about pronouns. They aren't a joking matter. And, yes, the correct pronoun for me, someone who doesn't have a gender, is "its". The pronoun "it" has been used to dehumanise people because of the implicit assumption that all people have a gender, but I assume most people here are enlightened enough to recognise that this isn't necessarily the case.

Got it. I hope I wasn't coming across as passive-aggressive; I was simply actually unsure.

I'm also in the "scum usually doesn't intentionally misread people" camp. I'm a bit surprised how much UoS is entertaining the idea. His entrance makes me want to vote for him a bit more, but not really enough. As far as Eddie goes, I'm fairly confident that the defense is genuine, but I don't think that tells us about his alignment. He could be scum and genuinely defend himself. If anything the interaction makes them less likely to be partners.

So when the dust is settled, I still like Simon the best.

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Re: Newbie Mafia 12: Your Favorite Animal Mafia (Day 1!)
« Reply #294 on: August 21, 2018, 03:21:41 am »

I don't joke about pronouns. They aren't a joking matter. And, yes, the correct pronoun for me, someone who doesn't have a gender, is "its". The pronoun "it" has been used to dehumanise people because of the implicit assumption that all people have a gender, but I assume most people here are enlightened enough to recognise that this isn't necessarily the case.

Got it. I hope I wasn't coming across as passive-aggressive; I was simply actually unsure.

I'm also in the "scum usually doesn't intentionally misread people" camp. I'm a bit surprised how much UoS is entertaining the idea. His entrance makes me want to vote for him a bit more, but not really enough. As far as Eddie goes, I'm fairly confident that the defense is genuine, but I don't think that tells us about his alignment. He could be scum and genuinely defend himself. If anything the interaction makes them less likely to be partners.

So when the dust is settled, I still like Simon the best.
That is about what I think. Scum!Eddie would very happily take the opportunity here to defend himself against an accusation that is really untrue.
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Re: Newbie Mafia 12: Your Favorite Animal Mafia (Day 1!)
« Reply #295 on: August 21, 2018, 05:32:17 am »

Vote Count 1.8

silverspawn (2): hypercube, mcmcsalot
Uncleeurope (2):, UmbrageOfSnow, phyphor
hypercube (1): Simon Jester
Simon Jester (2): silverspawn, faust
phyphor (1): Uncleeurope
Not Voting (1): WestCoastDidds

With 9 alive it takes 5 to lynch. Day 1 ends Wednesday, August 22 at 5am forum time.
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Re: Newbie Mafia 12: Your Favorite Animal Mafia (Day 1!)
« Reply #296 on: August 21, 2018, 06:21:34 am »


Phypor/muenstercheese have done absolutely nothing towny in their two posts.

What, precisely, would you like me to do on D1?
Here again is a proponent of the silly idea that D1s are pointless it seems. They are not. They are only if everyone is lazy and fails to do anything like you did. We have a good deal of content already. You might not necessarily find scum D1, but it is very common to have a bunch of solid townreads by the end of D1 if played correctly.

I didn't say they were pointless, I asked what you wanted from me.

I'm happy to join in with whatever is desired.
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Re: Newbie Mafia 12: Your Favorite Animal Mafia (Day 1!)
« Reply #297 on: August 21, 2018, 08:01:57 am »

I just realized that I was without a vote. Sorry about that.  Taking a cue from Faust and silver, and more on feeling than any good evidence...vote: Simon
 
I’m interested in how today plays out with Phy, though.
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Re: Newbie Mafia 12: Your Favorite Animal Mafia (Day 1!)
« Reply #298 on: August 21, 2018, 08:37:40 am »

So I think uncleeurope’s misread of phyphor post it stupid but 100% believable. I think umbrage is scummy for thinking he deliberately did it.

I do not like the uncleeurope votes at all.

I’m still curious what uncleeurope thinks of my silvercase.

Wcd you mentioned that you didn’t have an opinion on if silverspawns don’t lynch vets argument was scummy but figured it was now void. But I feel like you are missing the point that it was a scummy argument to begin with and just because it is no longer valid doesn’t take away from the objectively scummyness. I can’t see why people found it okay for silver to rule himself out of the lynch pool due to the fear that losing two vets on day one would allow a third scum vet to run away with the game. As I keep explaining the argument is full of logical flaws at all levels because it assumes one vet is scum and then says don’t lynch them and then says we need to look for one scum in the other 6 newbies. That’s worse then a random lynch which means ruling vets out was never ever ever a good idea.
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Re: Newbie Mafia 12: Your Favorite Animal Mafia (Day 1!)
« Reply #299 on: August 21, 2018, 08:52:49 am »

objectively scummyness
I don't think I can take you seriously if you insist that there are objective scumtells on D1.
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You say the ocean's rising, like I give a shit
You say the whole world's ending, honey it already did
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