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Author Topic: Newbie Mafia 12: Your Favorite Animal Mafia (Game Over! Town wins flawlessly)  (Read 70661 times)

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mcmcsalot

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Re: Newbie Mafia 12: Your Favorite Animal Mafia (Day 1!)
« Reply #250 on: August 20, 2018, 01:25:02 pm »

The quoting is hard to parse from silver so I’ll adress the point that he made separately.

I think it wasn't wrong at the time. If you have a game with three vets and one+ of them is scum, then if you lynch a vet day 1, what will happen is that a second vet dies n1 which leaves a bunch of people who're playing for the first time and one vet who is scum. That is really bad.

And you don't have any argument why it's not bad, you're just making the policy/moral case. It's always bad to answer a factual argument with a moral argument.

And you also conveniently left out this post:

Now that mcmc is here, the vet thing becomes less relevant.

I took the vet thing back as soon as you were here, because with 4 the same argument no longer applies. Where is the scum motivation for that?

In reference to the “we shouldn’t lynch vets argument”. It was bad and I’ll explain, you claimed it would be bad if we lynched a vet, then a vet died, and the remaining one was scum left with all newbies and therefor we shouldn’t lynch a vet. The issue there is that your bad scenario assumes one vet is scum and the we are lynching and having killed the other vets. Just on the surface your saying let’s not lynch from this pool in case one is scum which is absolutely bad. On top of that I think you are severely underrating new players ability to make logical reads as the game progresses that they would be swayed be a singular scum vet who could run away with he game.

It’s just a poor reasoning  all around for ruling out lynching a group of people that includes yourself hence it being scummy on top of logically flawed.

Yes I saw that you dropped it once I joined and that to be expected from either alignment because  the one lynch/one kill = one vet left part is no longer true. The scum reasoning for it is there is one more town player(me) that is now in the vet category that scum you might need to try to get lynched.
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UmbrageOfSnow

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Re: Newbie Mafia 12: Your Favorite Animal Mafia (Day 1!)
« Reply #251 on: August 20, 2018, 01:29:04 pm »

Sorry, busy Sunday, spent most of the day driving and then impromptu dogsitting a hyperactive dog with emotional issues in the time when I expected to be catching up on mafia, super busy today, will catch up later tonight (probably around 11 PM forum time), no worries about deadline from me. Glad to see the pace picked up while I was busy.

Hi Mcmcsalot!
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faust

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Re: Newbie Mafia 12: Your Favorite Animal Mafia (Day 1!)
« Reply #252 on: August 20, 2018, 01:45:17 pm »

I don't think that repeating a joke is the gold standard for partner tells.

Oh faust, you and your only addressing a part of the post you find a flaw with is so you...anyway I think that point is weak but the rest of the post is strong.

I hadn’t even realized his “back to uncle” was infact not backed up by him voting for uncleeurope. He votes cheese for lurking, pressures cheese again with his vote call post, wcd and Simon both join in voting cheese to which he immediately swaps off to wcd for a “pressure vote” and then as shown goes “back to uncle”.
It was the only thing in there I found that held a barest hint of partner interaction. The fact that silver voted for someone and then left is... well I don't know how that constitutes a partner interaction, and that he says "back to" when he did not go back doesn't improve that, it is just an expression that shows he thought about voting for Eddie before. You'd think that if scum!silver put a pressure vote on his partner, he'd remember.
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silverspawn

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Re: Newbie Mafia 12: Your Favorite Animal Mafia (Day 1!)
« Reply #253 on: August 20, 2018, 01:46:18 pm »

In reference to the “we shouldn’t lynch vets argument”. It was bad and I’ll explain, you claimed it would be bad if we lynched a vet, then a vet died, and the remaining one was scum left with all newbies and therefor we shouldn’t lynch a vet. The issue there is that your bad scenario assumes one vet is scum and the we are lynching and having killed the other vets. Just on the surface your saying let’s not lynch from this pool in case one is scum which is absolutely bad. On top of that I think you are severely underrating new players ability to make logical reads as the game progresses that they would be swayed be a singular scum vet who could run away with he game.

There is no argument here. You're just saying "bad" but still not giving actual reasons. I already said that it is based on having one vet be scum, and that is not particularly unlikely. And that's all you need, after that scum NKs a vet (why wouldn't they?) and there you have it. It's not far fetched, it's not super unlikely, it's a thing that could reasonably happen. Explain me why this scenario is not plausible or admit that you're wrong.

The only actual argument here is that I underestimate the ability for new players to make logical reads. I think you almost certainly overestimate that ability. Reads in general are terrible. The game is so hard that you only need a few percentage points above random to have a decent win %. I don't see any reason to be confident that scum!faust or scum!UoS couldn't trick a bunch of new players.

faust

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Re: Newbie Mafia 12: Your Favorite Animal Mafia (Day 1!)
« Reply #254 on: August 20, 2018, 01:47:17 pm »

Meh, I find mcmc's case very weak, but silver's defense isn't as decisive as I would have hoped either.
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silverspawn

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Re: Newbie Mafia 12: Your Favorite Animal Mafia (Day 1!)
« Reply #255 on: August 20, 2018, 01:47:42 pm »

btw the opposite could also happen. Maybe one vet dies the other gets NKd and town gets paranoid about the third and lynches them. Both cases aren't good.

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Re: Newbie Mafia 12: Your Favorite Animal Mafia (Day 1!)
« Reply #256 on: August 20, 2018, 01:48:19 pm »

Meh, I find mcmc's case very weak, but silver's defense isn't as decisive as I would have hoped either.

:'(

mcmcsalot

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Re: Newbie Mafia 12: Your Favorite Animal Mafia (Day 1!)
« Reply #257 on: August 20, 2018, 01:54:53 pm »

Meh, I find mcmc's case very weak, but silver's defense isn't as decisive as I would have hoped either.

It’s day one, like I said I think your umbrag case was valid yet weaker. I maintain that silver trying to give himself and other vets a d1 pass based on the conspiracy that a scum vet will run away with the game is less likely to be true then scum!silver thinking that argument will fly and actually create a sense that vets are important to keep around.

Again the argument is so silly because it assumes one vet is scum(totally possible) but then makes a straw argument for his benefit. You could easily lynch s newbie, have scum!silver kill one of the other vets and hen use the well you can’t lynch me because then if the other vet is scum they will run away with the game. It’s a bad argument and silver saying I need to explain why when I have repeatedly only makes me more confident I’m right.
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silverspawn

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Re: Newbie Mafia 12: Your Favorite Animal Mafia (Day 1!)
« Reply #258 on: August 20, 2018, 02:16:22 pm »

can someone reasonable tell mcmc that it's not a bad argument? Maybe he'll listen to them.

Also – I realize that I'm incentivized to say this, but nonetheless – finding a policy or meta reason for why others shouldn't vote for you strikes me as an excellent bet for something town does far more often than scum.

WestCoastDidds

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Re: Newbie Mafia 12: Your Favorite Animal Mafia (Day 1!)
« Reply #259 on: August 20, 2018, 03:45:47 pm »


No position on the strength of the arg itself, but when silver made the arg we had 6 newbies (2 or 3 super brand new) and 3 vets. Since then, two of the newbs left and have been replaced by vets so vets are now in the majority. I’m assuming that his arg is now null.

More interesting now is what his arguments look like moving forward.
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faust

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Re: Newbie Mafia 12: Your Favorite Animal Mafia (Day 1!)
« Reply #260 on: August 20, 2018, 03:57:40 pm »


No position on the strength of the arg itself, but when silver made the arg we had 6 newbies (2 or 3 super brand new) and 3 vets. Since then, two of the newbs left and have been replaced by vets so vets are now in the majority. I’m assuming that his arg is now null.

More interesting now is what his arguments look like moving forward.
Actually phyphor is also a newbie.
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silverspawn

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Re: Newbie Mafia 12: Your Favorite Animal Mafia (Day 1!)
« Reply #261 on: August 20, 2018, 04:06:07 pm »

I’m assuming that his arg is now null.

Even though there are only four as faust as pointed out; yes I've immediately said that it's no longer valid and already reminded mcmc of that.

It's relevant to look back at the argument of mcmc thinks it makes me scummy.

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Re: Newbie Mafia 12: Your Favorite Animal Mafia (Day 1!)
« Reply #262 on: August 20, 2018, 05:47:51 pm »

phyphar replaces muenstercheese, effective immediately. I can’t do a vote count until evening

Welcome Phyphar! Standard questions: Any previous mafia experience, preferred pronouns and most importantly.. are you scum?

0) LaLight can't spell - my name is phyphor
1) Yes
2) it/its
3) no


Ah, I’d assumed he was a vet because he’d played before and started spouting  “we have to do this or else no lynch” kind of stuff like he knew what was up. My bad.
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phyphor

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Re: Newbie Mafia 12: Your Favorite Animal Mafia (Day 1!)
« Reply #263 on: August 20, 2018, 07:10:50 pm »

In general we want to lynch every day, but whilst Day 1 is a day with little information which makes it hard to do a good lynching if we don't lynch anyone we run the risk of having the Mafia take out the good townies (be it because they're good at Mafia or have had to role-claim to save their skin).

It's unclear if you mean that a no-lynch D1 is good or not. It's very much NOT good to no-lynch here. Sure, due to the little information we have it's likely we are hitting town, but the information the lynch is gathering is key to have a useful D2. Without a lynch we are doomed to repeat D1 only with fewer players left.

Maf will most likely kill out the best/towniest town players by their NK no matter what we do. Scum has not that much influence over our lynch though, which is why it's so important to use, also in D1.

What you've done here is throw doubt on what I said, where I was very clear in that in general we want to lynch every day, and then re-stated what I said they'd do as if it were new information.


2) it/its

Wait, really? I don't have a problem with that but it strikes me as so unusual that I want to make sure you aren't joking.

I don't joke about pronouns. They aren't a joking matter. And, yes, the correct pronoun for me, someone who doesn't have a gender, is "its". The pronoun "it" has been used to dehumanise people because of the implicit assumption that all people have a gender, but I assume most people here are enlightened enough to recognise that this isn't necessarily the case.





Then phy comes in with the goal of not lynching anyone while putting me at vote #3. Super aggressive way to not kill someone. His initial post just struck me as odd, and I get the feeling that would be the case regardless of who he voted for, but I am willing to admit that defensive bias might play into this. I dunno, phy just doesn't sit right with me. And this confusion is ultimately why I went with cube first.

No, phy comes in stating that I want to kill someone that isn't me. Although you and Simon appear to want to collaborate on making it seem like I said something else. Not only that you choose to misgender me so, yeah, I'm keeping my vote on you and, assuming I make it through the night, Simon tomorrow at this rate.


I agree on it (its pronoun choice...sigh) being weird out of the gate and the “it’s gonna be a no lunch” and saying zippo about it’s experience. Super strange to me, but not sure if it’s scummy yet.

I didn't say "no lynch", I merely outlined why some people argue against a D1 lynch, but that I think it's a good idea.

I was asked if I had experience, I said yes. If you want to know more then ask me. I don't believe lying as a townie (which I am, but we'd all say this) helps the town.

Also, can we stop with the passive-aggressive sighing at my pronouns, thanks?

Phypor/muenstercheese have done absolutely nothing towny in their two posts.

What, precisely, would you like me to do on D1?





Vote: Uncleeurope

Partially to save my own back, but also because setting up three of us to share the votes (by switching to Faust) means we are unlikely to lynch on Day 1.

In general we want to lynch every day, but whilst Day 1 is a day with little information which makes it hard to do a good lynching if we don't lynch anyone we run the risk of having the Mafia take out the good townies (be it because they're good at Mafia or have had to role-claim to save their skin).

This is a terrible vote. Phyphor tell me why you think uncleeurooe is scummy.

I don't know how to make it clearer. Someone switching votes to keep us at 3 seemingly to avoid lynching someone is a bad tactic If they switched for a reason then that's fine, but this didn't appear to be the case.




Another point against silver is his interactions with phyphor/muenstercheese, who I think we all agree have only been scummy in their brief time here.

I'm scummy because?

Oh, wait, you said "Being concerned with self-preservation first and foremost is a pretty big red flag."

EVen though I said that was partially the reason and provided a better reason. But nice of you, and others, to skip past what I said, right?




Actually phyphor is also a newbie.

Here, yes, but not in general (as I said before).

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phyphor

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Re: Newbie Mafia 12: Your Favorite Animal Mafia (Day 1!)
« Reply #264 on: August 20, 2018, 07:14:38 pm »

Ah, I’d assumed [it] was a vet because [they]’d played before and started spouting  “we have to do this or else no lynch” kind of stuff like he knew what was up. My bad.

So how comes you can understand my "we should do this because not lynching is bad" but others seemed to think I was saying not to  lynch / changing my vote to avoid a lynch?
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Uncleeurope

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Re: Newbie Mafia 12: Your Favorite Animal Mafia (Day 1!)
« Reply #265 on: August 20, 2018, 08:12:51 pm »

Do you think I am scum, or are you just trying to save yourself with this triangle voting business?
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Re: Newbie Mafia 12: Your Favorite Animal Mafia (Day 1!)
« Reply #266 on: August 20, 2018, 08:29:01 pm »

Do you think I am scum, or are you just trying to save yourself with this triangle voting business?

1) we have agreed that it is good to lynch someone on D1
2) you have constantly changed who you're voting for, after we agreed that, such that we are unlikely to reach a consensus without actually giving a good reason why your'e changing your vote.

That is scummy.

You and your cohort trying to make it about me protecting myself even after I literally just explained my reasoning for the second time makes you look even scummier.
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WestCoastDidds

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Re: Newbie Mafia 12: Your Favorite Animal Mafia (Day 1!)
« Reply #267 on: August 20, 2018, 09:01:45 pm »


1) we have agreed that it is good to lynch someone on D1
2) you have constantly changed who you're voting for, after we agreed that, such that we are unlikely to reach a consensus without actually giving a good reason why your'e changing your vote.

That is scummy.

You and your cohort trying to make it about me protecting myself even after I literally just explained my reasoning for the second time makes you look even scummier.

Phy, I apologize for sighing at your pronoun choice. I wasn’t being deliberately passive aggressive, just bent out of shape about the way my sentence sounded to me. But that is on me and stupid grammar and not your fault. Sorry.

I feel like you are annoyed with us for not coalescing on a decision about who to lynch yet, but it seems to me that we still had a fair amount of time (Wednesday at 5 am, right?) so this is out of tune with the rest of the conversation. The vets don’t seem concerned yet, and I’m following their cue. It’s also unusual considering that two new players just joined and Umbrage has been otherwise engaged.

It also seems like you are annoyed with us generally and your long post seems unnecessarily aggressive. I’ve been a work, though, so that could just be how it strikes me. You’ve offered little and now your chastising us for not asking more and some folks being confused about an early wagon or no lynch statement.

Would you care to share some of your previous experience? And do you have any reads on folks upon rereading other than trying to join a wagon that is not you?
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Uncleeurope

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Re: Newbie Mafia 12: Your Favorite Animal Mafia (Day 1!)
« Reply #268 on: August 20, 2018, 09:19:56 pm »

Do you think I am scum, or are you just trying to save yourself with this triangle voting business?

1) we have agreed that it is good to lynch someone on D1
2) you have constantly changed who you're voting for, after we agreed that, such that we are unlikely to reach a consensus without actually giving a good reason why your'e changing your vote.

That is scummy.

You and your cohort trying to make it about me protecting myself even after I literally just explained my reasoning for the second time makes you look even scummier.

Ahkay, so you didn't think I was scummy until after you voted for me. Fair enough.
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mcmcsalot

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Re: Newbie Mafia 12: Your Favorite Animal Mafia (Day 1!)
« Reply #269 on: August 20, 2018, 09:25:09 pm »

I would also like to know your previous experience phyphor. I think there is some meta clashing going on which is causing you to lash out at people for pretty non-alignment reasons. This is also unfortunately not very alignment indicative from you.

For example we try to be more case based here and my questioning of your vote on uncleeuro was meant to get you to elaborate on your case. I’lll be more specific in my questioning.

Why exactly do you think uncleeurope is mafia because he evened the votes out by voting for Faust. I strongly disagree that any vote at that time period was more or less likely to get a lynch through and we were not in a deadline scramble situation. So from the outside your reasoning looks flawed, and I would like you to flesh it out.
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Re: Newbie Mafia 12: Your Favorite Animal Mafia (Day 1!)
« Reply #270 on: August 20, 2018, 09:26:15 pm »

 Uncleeurope what do you think of my silverspawn case?
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phyphor

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Re: Newbie Mafia 12: Your Favorite Animal Mafia (Day 1!)
« Reply #271 on: August 20, 2018, 09:35:28 pm »

I feel like you are annoyed with us for not coalescing on a decision about who to lynch yet, but it seems to me that we still had a fair amount of time (Wednesday at 5 am, right?) so this is out of tune with the rest of the conversation. The vets don’t seem concerned yet, and I’m following their cue. It’s also unusual considering that two new players just joined and Umbrage has been otherwise engaged.

It also seems like you are annoyed with us generally and your long post seems unnecessarily aggressive. I’ve been a work, though, so that could just be how it strikes me. You’ve offered little and now your chastising us for not asking more and some folks being confused about an early wagon or no lynch statement.

Would you care to share some of your previous experience? And do you have any reads on folks upon rereading other than trying to join a wagon that is not you?

I am not annoyed at the lack of coalescing, none of us even need to vote yet, after all, only that deliberately adjusting votes so that there's no clear majority, instead of just unvoting, is a bad tactic.

I'm not annoyed, I just wanted to respond to the messages that I'd not interacted with. I appreciate that annoyance can be perceived, but that wasn't my intent.

As for my experience - I've played various incarnations of Mafia/Werewolf on forums going back over a decade, have run various in-person games, and play quite a bit of One Night Ultimate Werewolf (although that's a very different style of game). I've played with various different roles from "no special roles", "just a seer", to some ridiculous games the silliest of which had about 100 people and it felt like half of them were special roles.


I am still perturbed by the fact that some people appear to have deliberately mis-stated my reasons or voting, focusing on one half of my statement.

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phyphor

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Re: Newbie Mafia 12: Your Favorite Animal Mafia (Day 1!)
« Reply #272 on: August 20, 2018, 09:38:34 pm »

Ahkay, so you didn't think I was scummy until after you voted for me. Fair enough.

You mean where I pointed out after you changed your vote to faust that switching your vote for no good reason made you look bad?

And that you tried to claim I was voting just to save my skin?

And now you're trying to claim I said you were scummy after my vote?

Either you're scum, and you're deliberately trying to muddy the water to save yourself, or you're a townie who chooses not to read what I've posted.
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phyphor

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Re: Newbie Mafia 12: Your Favorite Animal Mafia (Day 1!)
« Reply #273 on: August 20, 2018, 09:43:36 pm »

Why exactly do you think uncleeurope is mafia because he evened the votes out by voting for Faust. I strongly disagree that any vote at that time period was more or less likely to get a lynch through and we were not in a deadline scramble situation. So from the outside your reasoning looks flawed, and I would like you to flesh it out.

Because evening out the vote is a good mafia tactic because it does one of two things:

1) makes it less likely that anyone (especially your fellow scum) will be lynched (good for the mafia-wolves)
2) makes it so that if the voted for person does get the votes their way (whilst you're absent) there is plausible deniability when they turn out to be innocent.

If you can unvote then unvoting avoids (2).

In any case, there seems to be no good justification for Uncle to keep changing their vote.
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Re: Newbie Mafia 12: Your Favorite Animal Mafia (Day 1!)
« Reply #274 on: August 20, 2018, 09:56:03 pm »

In Uncle Eddie’s defense, but there was been a whole lot of voting around by lots of /most people. I’m not sure he should be held uniquely responsible for that. And without any critical mass it’s hard to be terribly insightful.
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