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[LaLight]

Welcome to NM12: Your Favorite Animal Mafia

This game will use New Newbie Setup v2, a semi-open setup for 9 players first used in NM11

Mod: LaLight

Tags:

Players
1. faust
2. Simon Jester
3. silverspawn
4. alinatolm
5. hypercube
6. Uncleeurope
7. UmbrageOfSnow
8. muenstercheese
9. WestCoastDidds

The Rules:

The Golden Rule:
This is a game. Everyone who signs up to play must be considerate of each other, never get personal, and focus on having fun. Once the game starts, having signed up is a commitment: inactivity is just as inconsiderate as rude comments.

The Standard Rules:
1. No communication between players outside of the game thread or shared QTs at any time. This includes passing references, jokes, or cases in other games or threads, whether in context or not.
2. If the game thread is locked, do not post. If you are unsure if something is locked, ask the mod by PM.
3. Direct or verbatim quoting of mod-provided information is strictly forbidden. Paraphrasing is okay.
4. Actions with instructions that do not specify a game state will be resolved in the order they are received.
5. All night actions must be submitted within 24 hours of day ending.
6. Players must post once every 24 hours.
7. Do not edit or delete posts, ever. If you need to clarify or correct something, post again.
8. Invisible text, font size less than 10, and spoiler tags are not allowed.
9. Cryptography is not allowed.
10. The time between a lynch being reached and a flip being provided is called twilight. All players may continue posting during this time, including the lynched player.
11. Dead players may not post in thread or QT, except their Role QT. A lynched player is not "dead" until a flip has been provided.
12. Personal multimedia, such as video or audio recordings, are not allowed in the game thread.

The Voting Rules:
1. Votes should be in this format: Vote: Playername. Unambigiuous nicknames are acceptable, or any string that uniquely identifies a user. Note that the point of voting is, in fact, unambiguity, and attempting to make it unclear to other players (or, of course, mods) which user you are voting for is very ill-advised.
2. Unvotes should be in this format: unvote or Unvote: Playername.
3. Unvotes are not required if changing your vote from one player to another.
4. You may vote: no lynch.
5. Lynches occur when a simple majority (rounded up) of living players is reached. Once reached, a lynch cannot be undone.
6. If a majority lynch is not reached by the Day's deadline, no lynch occurs.

The Rest:
1. Bold, aquamarine text is reserved for the mod. Players may not use it.
2. If you have an issue or problem with the game, please PM the Mod. Do not post complaints in the game thread.
3. Mods make mistakes - please point them out gently. If they can be corrected, they will. If irreversible, they will stand as final to be commiserated over after the game.
4. If a mod error disadvantages one faction greatly, the game may be called off.
5. Ask all questions and make all requests directly to the Mod via PM. Questions deemed as "universal" (defined as questions for which the answers should be available to all players) will be requested to be re-posted in the Game Thread and answered there.
6. One prod will be issued after 48 hours without posting in the game thread. Players are subject to replacement or modkill after one prod.
7. All rule violations will be dealt with according to their severity, as determined by the mod.
8. Each player will receive their own QT, regardless of role. Don't quote from it.
9. If the game goes on for 3 days and 3 nights without a lynch or nightkill, town wins.

Deadlines:
7-day Days, 2-day Nights

[LaLight]

Setup



I choose between A, B, and C and between 1, 2 and 3. ABC chooses which power role mafia has (between roleblocker, rolecop, and just a goon) and 123 chooses which power role(s) town has (depends on ABC). and then add 1 mafia goon and 5 vanilla townies.

Mafia may communicate at any time, and cannot kill and use a secondary action while both are alive.

Below are the role PMs: these are what i will tell each role at the beginning of the game. these are useful if you want to learn what any of the roles do.

Vanilla Townie (VT)

Welcome to NM12: Your Favorite Animal Mafia! You are a Vanilla Townie! This means you are aligned with the town, but don't have any special powers. You can vote and talk during the day.

You win when all mafia members are eliminated.

Town Cop

Welcome to NM12: Your Favorite Animal Mafia! You are a Town Cop! You are aligned with the town, and each night you can target one player to have me tell you whether they are a member of town or mafia, unless you are roleblocked, in which case i say "no result". Nothing can cause me to tell you a mafia member is town or vice versa. You can also vote and talk during the day.

You win when all mafia members are eliminated.

Town Doctor

Welcome to NM12: Your Favorite Animal Mafia! You are a Town Doctor! You are aligned with the town, and each night you can target one player other than yourself; if the mafia target that person to kill them, the kill will fail and no one will die! You can also vote and talk during the day.

You win when all mafia members are eliminated.

Town Jailkeeper

Welcome to NM12: Your Favorite Animal Mafia! You are a Town Jailkeeper! You are aligned with the town, and your role is a combination of the "doctor" and "roleblocker" roles: each night, you may target someone other than yourself; if the mafia target that person to kill them, the kill will fail and no one will die. Additionally, if they attempt to use a night action (including a kill if they are a mafia member) that action will fail. You can also vote and talk during the day.

You win when all mafia members are eliminated.

Town Tracker

Welcome to NM12: Your Favorite Animal Mafia! You are a Town Tracker! You are aligned with the town, and each night, you can target one player to learn who they successfully targeted with some night action (though i don't tell you exactly what night action they used). if they didn't use a night action, i will say "[player] didn't target anyone." if you were roleblocked, i will say "no result." You can also vote and talk during the day.

You win when all mafia members are eliminated.

Town Neapolitan

welcome to NM12: Your Favorite Animal Mafia! You are a town neapolitan! You are aligned with the town, and each night you can target one player to have me tell you whether or not they are a vanilla townie, unless you are roleblocked, in which case i say "no result". Nothing can cause me to tell you a mafia member is town or vice versa. You can also vote and talk during the day.

You win when all mafia members are eliminated.

Mafia Goon

Welcome to NM12: Your Favorite Animal Mafia! You are a Mafia Goon! You are aligned with the mafia, along with [player name], a [role name]. The two of you may talk at any time, in [qt link]. Additionally, each night, one of you may kill a member of the town. You can also vote and talk in the game thread during the day.

You win when mafia makes up at least half of the people alive during a day phase, or when town cannot prevent that from happening.

Mafia Rolecop

Welcome to NM12: Your Favorite Animal Mafia! You are a Mafia Rolecop! You are aligned with the mafia, along with [player name], a [role name]. The two of you may talk at any time, in [qt link]. Additionally, each night:
-You may choose one player to have me tell you what role PM they received.
-Either of the two of you may kill a member of the town. You may not use this and the rolecop ability while [partner] is alive.

You can also vote and talk in the game thread during the day.

You win when mafia makes up at least half of the people alive during a day phase, or when town cannot prevent that from happening.

Mafia Roleblocker

Welcome to NM12: Your Favorite Animal Mafia! You are a Mafia Roleblocker! You are aligned with the mafia, along with [player name], a [role name]. The two of you may talk at any time, in [qt link]. Additionally, each night:
-You may choose one player; any night action that player uses will fail.
-Either of the two of you may kill a member of the town. You may not use this and the roleblock ability while [partner] is alive.

You can also vote and talk in the game thread during the day.

You win when mafia makes up at least half of the people alive during a day phase, or when town cannot prevent that from happening.

[LaLight]

The game is aimed for newbies. If you have less than 2-3 games played on site, you are welcome to join! If you want to play and this is the first time, don't forget to /pledge in This Thread. Other than newbies, I would very much like to see 1-2 veterans who will play and help along the game. Let's try to engage as many new players as possible. If you have any questions about the game beforehand, feel free to ask them in thread!

[faust]

I would be available as a vet.

[Simon Jester]

/in - 2 (1) games on this site, excluding BM.

[silverspawn]

I would be available as a vet.

mafia has become fun again!

[silverspawn]

(in case it's unlcear, that means I'd also play.)

[LaLight]

cool! Let's stop on 2 vets for now

[alinatolm]

/in

[LaLight]

this is my promised newbie

[hypercube]

in

[faust]

this is my promised newbie

The Newb That Was Promised

[Joseph2302]

/in if you need another vet

[UmbrageOfSnow]

I don't want to steal a newb spot but I'd really like to play if my friend (Uncleeurope) plays.

Anyway, I'll let him know about this but if there is still a slot open when it's time to launch I would really like to be /in.

[LaLight]

I don't want to steal a newb spot but I'd really like to play if my friend (Uncleeurope) plays.

Anyway, I'll let him know about this but if there is still a slot open when it's time to launch I would really like to be /in.

let me try to advertise Mafia in Dominion Discord and see how many people will be willing to join, then we'll see.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

At the very least I'll heckle from the spectator thread.

[Uncleeurope]

I am the newbie attached to UmbrageOfSnow

And I believe I am /in

[LaLight]

Umbrage is on the list. Let's find 2 more newbies, shall we?

[SpaceAnemone]

/tag

[muenstercheese]

/in

0 games played, so there's that

[Robz888]

/tag

[Awaclus]

Looks like you already have enough veterans but I'll /in anyway in case the game doesn't fill up from newbies.

[WestCoastDidds]

I will play, but am not quite sure how... the newbiest newb

[LaLight]

I will play, but am not quite sure how... the newbiest newb

Awesome! You'll get it, its's quite simple

[LaLight]

All of you have got the private messages on this forum with links to Quicktopic site. Click them, there will be your role and win condition. If you have any questions, ask me in there!

This THREAD is LOCKED. The game will start when everyone confirms they got the role in there.

[gkrieg13]

/tag for speccy

[LaLight]

Day 1 starts now!

Vote Count 1.0

Not Voting (9): faust, Simon Jester, silverspawn, alinatolm, hypercube, Uncleeurope, UmbrageOfSnow, muenstercheese, WestCoastDidds

With 9 alive it takes 5 to lynch. Day 1 starts now and ends Wednesday, August 22 at 5am forum time.

[Simon Jester]

Good morning y'all!

Many new people naturally, exciting!

Let's start out with a vote: Umbrage and see where that leads us.

[silverspawn]

vote: poorly written Harry Potter Villain

nice playing with you again!

I'm town. What about you?

[hypercube]

Hi everyone!

I'm town. What about you?

I'm also town.

vote: silver for starting a wagon in a somewhat opaque manner.

[Simon Jester]

Hi everyone!

I'm town. What about you?

I'm also town.

vote: silver for starting a wagon in a somewhat opaque manner.

Wha.. Wagons, where? How?

And wagons are good, bad reason for voting silver, really. One scumpoint to you.

[LaLight]

Vote Count 1.1

UmbrageOfSnow (1): Simon Jester
silverspawn (1): hypercube
Not Voting (7): faust, silverspawn, alinatolm, Uncleeurope, UmbrageOfSnow, muenstercheese, WestCoastDidds

With 9 alive it takes 5 to lynch. Day 1 ends Wednesday, August 22 at 5am forum time.

[silverspawn]

Hi everyone!

I'm town. What about you?

I'm also town.

vote: silver for starting a wagon in a somewhat opaque manner.

I'd have been fairly surprised if that vote counted. As you can see, it didn't.

but this one may. opaque vote: hypercube

[Simon Jester]

Hi everyone!

I'm town. What about you?

I'm also town.

vote: silver for starting a wagon in a somewhat opaque manner.

I'd have been fairly surprised if that vote counted. As you can see, it didn't.

but this one may. opaque vote: hypercube

ooooh, Omgus! Fight, Fight, Fight!!

[hypercube]

ooooh, Omgus! Fight, Fight, Fight!!

translucent vote: Simon for formenting conflict.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

Since we have at least one total total newb, I want to make a "brief" post on strategy.

• Right now we have nothing to go on so we start by just voting for semi-arbitrary reasons. People will see things that give them a small read, argue about them, find each other scummy for their garbage reads, generate better reads off the whole mess, and so the cycle begins. Don't just throw up your hands and say "but there's nothing to get reads off of," it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy.
   
• "L-1" means someone is 1 vote away from being lynched. We don't want anyone accidentally or "accidentally" hammering (casting the last vote) so announce when you put someone at L-1.
  
  
• Also declare intent to hammer before doing so. This gives a chance for the lynchee to claim and everyone a last chance to reconsider in light of that claim. If you hammer someone without warning and they flip town, I will do everything in my power to lynch you the next day.
  
  
• The goal isn't to survive until the end of the game, the goal is to identify and lynch the Mafia. If you are worried you’re on track to get mislynched, try to take a deep breath and figure out who is most likely to be scum. Make a case on why they are scum instead of flailing around just trying not to die, it’s more helpful to town, and more likely to actually save you if it’s a good case.
  
  
• Don't claim false power roles or false results, this only benefits the scumteam. If you claim a power role, the correct play is for another town player with that power role to claim. If scum fake claims, this gets scum lynched at a 1-for-1 tradeoff with that town power role. If you do it as town, you and the town power role both die at no benefit to anyone other than the Mafia.
  
  
• If you have a power role, be very cautious about claiming it. If you're about to be lynched (and I mean intent to hammer, not a couple votes and feeling generally depressed and fatalistic), if you have a guilty result on someone as cop or tracker, if scum just claimed your role or your role makes their claim impossible, if someone you have an innocent result on is about to be lynched, or when it's the last day and it's Lynch or Lose (LyLo), then claim. Not before.
  
  
• No Lynching is very bad for Town most of the time. We should compromise and get someone lynched. Scum have complete control over the night kill, but have to vote like everyone else on the lynch, which gives us more information, which is better. If we get to 3v1 or 4v2 that's when we No Lynch.
  
  
• There is no reason to wait until the last 5 minutes of every day to settle on a compromise lynch. No one ever gets their top scumread lynched every day and we can get better compromises that are more likely to hit scum if we try to settle things a bit early instead of waiting until the last minute and having who is online (or strategically lurking) decide which compromises are even possible.

And with that, I’ll shut up about theory.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

Vote:Faust for not doing that yet.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

vote: poorly written Harry Potter Villain

nice playing with you again!

I'm town. What about you?

Nice playing with you again too! Like I've realized I've been missing forum mafia and I'm actually a bit emotional about coming back. Not just excitement or shame at having left before but like nostalgia and that sort of happy sadness. I'm seriously glad to be back.

None of that is alignment-indicative though. And neither is this: I'm town.

P.S. The poorly written Harry Potter villain was
a) all of them
b) spelled Umbridge

[Simon Jester]

ooooh, Omgus! Fight, Fight, Fight!!

translucent vote: Simon for formenting conflict.

Asch, conflict is good, irregardless if it's fabricated, silly or whatever. What is fishy is to try to dial down a potential subject of conversation. Town wants to have many interactions D1 a so we can go back later days and study them when we have more revealed information.

PPE

So c'mone, be a pro-town player and go hunt down scum!silver, attaboy!

[UmbrageOfSnow]

@Hypercube: what's your previous Mafia experience?

[silverspawn]

a) all of them
b) spelled Umbridge

I know. I once called you Umbridge and you said you didn't want to be confused with a poorly written harry potter villain. It was a failed attempt at an insider. Iactuallythinkumbridgeiswellwrittenbutnjeh

Your case on faust is solid. I think you probably caught him. vote: faust

[UmbrageOfSnow]

Wooo, wagon!

I remember that now, but I have trouble remembering who said what sometimes. I thought it was EFHW for some reason.

[hypercube]

@Hypercube: what's your previous Mafia experience?

I've played IRL some, never by text before. I've been lurking this forum for a while; I've probably read ~20 games here.

[Uncleeurope]

Even though no one asked me, I have a bit of IRL experience and a bit of forum experience, although my forum experience was a lot more... casual? I guess? With very different structure and terms. So I may get lost, but I will try my best to keep myself aware and open to listening to advice from you people.

That being said, any advice that disagrees with me will allow me to assume its coming from the depths of scumminess, and will have to be dealt with.

(Note: This is a post which is meant to show I am reading all of this without actually accomplishing anything.)

[alinatolm]

Hi! So much terms in here! I've played Mafia at school before, but never on the internet. So scared to do something wrong. I hope I'll figure out things here quickly. What does it mean 'declare intent to hammer'? How exactly should I warn someone before the action?

[UmbrageOfSnow]

Hi! So much terms in here! I've played Mafia at school before, but never on the internet. So scared to do something wrong. I hope I'll figure out things here quickly. What does it mean 'declare intent to hammer'? How exactly should I warn someone before the action?

Don't let the terms intimidate you, but they do get thrown around a lot (and do help people talk about stuff without re-explaining everything) so worth getting used to, but if you don't know what something means just ask.

Don't worry too much about doing something wrong, just put your thoughts out there. If you are scum or town with a power role, this probably doesn't help much, but try to play as if you are town with no powers.

Just saying it is all anyone ever means. Often we put it in bold.

Like this
Intent to hammer: Uncleeurope

Bold doesn't automatically make it a vote or something, you have to actually say Vote:

[alinatolm]

OK thank you! In real life I'm used to the fact that Mafia is often too active. So
vote: UmbrageOfSnow

[Simon Jester]

@Lalight, your date in the vote count is likely wrong, unless the first game-day is ending today!?

Interesting vote from alinatolm, altough activeness can't be a general scumtell in forum mafia, it's much more a question of each players meta in that case. It's easy to lurk as mafia and it tends to be a playstyle that pays off unfortunately so I would rather look among the silent players in the first place. Of course irrelevant this early in the game, but we'll see.

Umbrages ambition to be the tutor for the newbies is most likely a null-tell, but it would be so fun it was a deliberate way to gain easy town-cred that I'm happy to have my vote staying where it is. Slightly less RVS now, with other words.

[LaLight]

@Lalight, your date in the vote count is likely wrong, unless the first game-day is ending today!?

Sorry for that, I fixed it.

[alinatolm]

Thank you for the explanation. Can I clarify some words? What do 'null-tell' and 'RVS' mean?

[Simon Jester]

Thank you for the explanation. Can I clarify some words? What do 'null-tell' and 'RVS' mean?

"null-tell" means basically that a statement is neither townie nor scummy. RVS is Random Vote Stage and that's where we are right now and Umbrage mentioned it above. We throw careless accusations that generates discussion and via the discussion we et more substantial reads and then the game has begun for real.

For further reference this link might be useful: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=16266.0

[Uncleeurope]

Vote: alinatolm

Either he is killing a talker, or he is killing someone he thinks is intelligent enough to be a threat, you decide. Ima just vote for the guy to see what happens.

[faust]

Hi!

My internet was broken yesterday, but hopefully it will be better from now on.

[faust]

Hi everyone!

I'm town. What about you?

I'm also town.

vote: silver for starting a wagon in a somewhat opaque manner.

This is the scummiest thing to happen so far. As in, why in the world is that even scummy? It seems just like not wanting to place a vote without a reason.

Vote: hypercube

[faust]

Umbrages ambition to be the tutor for the newbies is most likely a null-tell, but it would be so fun it was a deliberate way to gain easy town-cred that I'm happy to have my vote staying where it is. Slightly less RVS now, with other words.

I have trouble parsing what you are saying here.

[LaLight]

Vote Count 1.2

UmbrageOfSnow (2): Simon Jester, alinatolm
Simon Jester (1): hypercube
faust (1): silverspawn
alinatolm (1): Uncleeurope
hypercube (1): faust
Not Voting (3): UmbrageOfSnow, muenstercheese, WestCoastDidds

With 9 alive it takes 5 to lynch. Day 1 ends Wednesday, August 22 at 5am forum time.

Please note, that this vote:

Vote:Faust for not doing that yet.

Doesn't count, because it is poorly written.

[faust]

OK thank you! In real life I'm used to the fact that Mafia is often too active. So
vote: UmbrageOfSnow

This post is interesting in several ways.

- it is the third vote on UoS from what I can tell, making it the first major wagon.
- the reasoning is the kind of flawed one that you often see from casual players. Mafia is not more active then town. Different players have different levels of activity. Some people are more as scum then they are as town, and for others it is the other way around. I can testify to the fact that UoS's activity level so far is about what I would expect from him as either alignment.

So if alina is scum, they are trying a very in-your-face approach to get UoS lynched. So not a subtle scum player. Which makes me confident that it won't take us long to figure out their alignment.

By the way, what pronouns does everyone use? You can use he or they for me.

[silverspawn]

goot points. vote: muenstercheese for lurking

[Simon Jester]

Umbrages ambition to be the tutor for the newbies is most likely a null-tell, but it would be so fun it was a deliberate way to gain easy town-cred that I'm happy to have my vote staying where it is. Slightly less RVS now, with other words.

I have trouble parsing what you are saying here.

I think there is a chance that scum!Umbrage could make an effort to be active in the early stage of the game with teaching advice and such to get a townie feel on himself, that well, since I don't have anything else at the moment I'm happy to have my vote there as of now.

quote author=faust link=topic=18893.msg764947#msg764947 date=1534408660]

- it is the third vote on UoS from what I can tell, making it the first major wagon.
- the reasoning is the kind of flawed one that you often see from casual players. Mafia is not more active then town. Different players have different levels of activity. Some people are more as scum then they are as town, and for others it is the other way around. I can testify to the fact that UoS's activity level so far is about what I would expect from him as either alignment.

So if alina is scum, they are trying a very in-your-face approach to get UoS lynched. So not a subtle scum player. Which makes me confident that it won't take us long to figure out their alignment.
[/quote]

It's not. Silvers vote was never counted and it was quite obvious it wouldn't be (silver voted somewhere else soon there after too) which makes the rest of your reasoning quite.. meh. Giving someone a second vote is not bold at all and to use their familiar IRL- meta as reasoning for voting as a new forum player is not strange either when casting the first vote.

[Simon Jester]

Quote fail, aagh.

[silverspawn]

I think there is a chance that scum!Umbrage could make an effort to be active in the early stage of the game with teaching advice and such to get a townie feel on himself, that well, since I don't have anything else at the moment I'm happy to have my vote there as of now.

Umbrage is totally the person to do this as town, so I don't think that's any tell.

[silverspawn]

But you're right of course that the second vote wasn't anything notable.

[Simon Jester]

I think there is a chance that scum!Umbrage could make an effort to be active in the early stage of the game with teaching advice and such to get a townie feel on himself, that well, since I don't have anything else at the moment I'm happy to have my vote there as of now.

Umbrage is totally the person to do this as town, so I don't think that's any tell.

Ah, well, alrite, I guess not.

Let's hunt lurkers: vote: Westcoastdidds

[LaLight]

I prodded WestCoastDidds and muenstercheese

[WestCoastDidds]

Thanks for the prod! I know what my favorite animal is, but not that the game had started.

Alas, voting for lurkers is no bueno. Especially when they are the newbs. Look at my delightful headgehog outfit. It’s totally town wear.

[Simon Jester]

Thanks for the prod! I know what my favorite animal is, but not that the game had started.

Alas, voting for lurkers is no bueno. Especially when they are the newbs. Look at my delightful headgehog outfit. It’s totally town wear.

Voting lurkers is always bueno, newb or not. There can be better cases but chances to catch scum among low posters is always rather high so Lynch All Lurkers Literally is a saying here that is good to listen to.

Scummy vibe from you. Hm.

[WestCoastDidds]

Scummy vibe is just a lack of coffee.

But in the spirit of Lynch All Lurkers
Vote:muenstercheese for being all excited and now suspiciously absent

[silverspawn]

you need a whitespace after the colon, otherwise LaLight won't count it.

[hypercube]

This is the scummiest thing to happen so far. As in, why in the world is that even scummy? It seems just like not wanting to place a vote without a reason.

Vote: hypercube

I was mostly annoyed that it took me several minutes to figure out who they were (pretending to) vote for.

muenstercheese is basically notorious for running away from things so it's not terribly surprising he's not here.

He or they pronouns for me.

[WestCoastDidds]

Interesting... why is that?

Vote: Muenstercheese

I’m she/they

[UmbrageOfSnow]

Please note , that this vote: [/color]

Vote:Faust for not doing that yet.

Doesn't count , because it is poorly written.

This vote count doesn't count because it is poorly written.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

Interesting... why is that?

Vote: Muenstercheese

I’m she/they

So that you new players can have fun experiencing a fake hammer I guess. Where someone deliberately looks like they are hammering someone but didn't really.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

Scummy vibe is just a lack of coffee.

But in the spirit of Lynch All Lurkers
Vote:muenstercheese for being all excited and now suspiciously absent

Lurker lynching is all well and good but what do you think of the game so far? Does any player seem more likely to be town or scum to you?

[UmbrageOfSnow]

Sorry for the post spam here, I'll try to keep it down.

Anyway, I do actually get a slight townread off that vote on me. No, I don't think it put me in danger of being lynched or anything, but I feel like new scum would have been more nervous about that whole interaction.

I'm a bit weirded out by UE and faust both coming to my defense in their own ways.

I go by he or they but I'm tempted (because I'm feeling trollish since it's right after coffee #2) to insist everyone should call me they purely to bother anyone who has this thing about singular they being wrong, it predates Shakespeare and pushing for "he" as a generic/genderless first person pronoun didn't start until the mid 1700s and was never agreed upon by everyone. Grrrrrrr

[UmbrageOfSnow]

muenstercheese is basically notorious for running away from things so it's not terribly surprising he's not here.

How do you to know each other? Do you think you are likely to be better at reading each other than average?

I'm friends with Uncleeurope and we played one game somewhat like forum mafia before, but a lot less serious with some element of roleplaying and outside-the-thread communication. I ended up mis-scumreading him because of a Skype call we had where basically he was trying to get me to scumread him to generate a read on me.

We also play Dominion, another board game called Summoner Wars, and the roleplaying game Trail of Cthulhu (and recently a game of Fiasco) together. I feel like I can point out when something is about what's expected from him, but he's also probably able to fool me as scum, and therefore I'm prone to oversuspecting him. But I'm aware of that, so who knows where my actual bias is. Anyway, don't blindly sheep my reads on him.

(Sheep means to follow or agree with someone with basically no other thought or comment of your own.)

[UmbrageOfSnow]

"How do you TWO"

gah.

Okay, I will post nothing else until some people come in here and respond to things. Feel like I'm falling back into old habits and will end up having half the posts in the game, which is bad for anyone's ability to actually read or reread the game to get reads.

[faust]

Sorry for the post spam here, I'll try to keep it down.

Something is wrong when people start apologizing for posting.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

Sorry for the post spam here, I'll try to keep it down.

Something is wrong when people start apologizing for posting.

Just seems like I'm going way beyond the pace of the rest of the game. Do you remember my first game ever?

[faust]

Sorry for the post spam here, I'll try to keep it down.

Something is wrong when people start apologizing for posting.

Just seems like I'm going way beyond the pace of the rest of the game. Do you remember my first game ever?

Doesn't your first game predate mine?

[UmbrageOfSnow]

Doesn't your first game predate mine?

It might, I don't know. Anyway, newb!me spammed the crap out of a game and I was town but I think I did more to help the scumteam in terms of creating town apathy than I did anything else. If I think I had a correct scumread on Robz that no one listened to, partly because I drowned myself out in walls of vote count and post count nonsense.

[WestCoastDidds]

Scummy vibe is just a lack of coffee.

But in the spirit of Lynch All Lurkers
Vote:muenstercheese for being all excited and now suspiciously absent

Lurker lynching is all well and good but what do you think of the game so far? Does any player seem more likely to be town or scum to you?

Hell if I know! It seems like with the number of brand spanking new folks and our general lack of know-how, two of us are not likely to be scum. We wouldn’t know what to do! You’d want a vet in at least one of the spots, right? So, I am less supicious of the lesser known. 

[WestCoastDidds]

Faust, Silver, and Umbrage are the vets?

[Uncleeurope]

I'm a bit weirded out by UE and faust both coming to my defense in their own ways.

*Shrugs* Fair enough, I wasn't expecting to have much support with that post being an oddity, I just wanted to latch on to something similar to a lead. I can vote for you now if it makes you feel more comfortable.

I'm friends with Uncleeurope and we played one game somewhat like forum mafia before, but a lot less serious with some element of roleplaying and outside-the-thread communication. I ended up mis-scumreading him because of a Skype call we had where basically he was trying to get me to scumread him to generate a read on me.

We also play Dominion, another board game called Summoner Wars, and the roleplaying game Trail of Cthulhu (and recently a game of Fiasco) together. I feel like I can point out when something is about what's expected from him, but he's also probably able to fool me as scum, and therefore I'm prone to oversuspecting him. But I'm aware of that, so who knows where my actual bias is. Anyway, don't blindly sheep my reads on him.

Awwwwww, that's the nicest thing you've ever said to me. <3

[silverspawn]

@uncle, you still have zero posts, does that mean you have to fill out something every time you want to post?

If so that'll disappear if you make a post somwewhere where it counts. The random stuff thread, for example. http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=18043.msg764966#new

[silverspawn]

Faust, silver, and Umbrage are the vets?

Yes. I'll take care of all your hurt animals.

[faust]

Faust, silver, and Umbrage are the vets?

Yes. I'll take care of all your hurt animals.

Nice flavor tie-in!

[WestCoastDidds]

Indeed!

Plus my cats, Scott and Brad, would appreciate the care.

[faust]

Scummy vibe is just a lack of coffee.

But in the spirit of Lynch All Lurkers
Vote:muenstercheese for being all excited and now suspiciously absent

Lurker lynching is all well and good but what do you think of the game so far? Does any player seem more likely to be town or scum to you?

Hell if I know! It seems like with the number of brand spanking new folks and our general lack of know-how, two of us are not likely to be scum. We wouldn’t know what to do! You’d want a vet in at least one of the spots, right? So, I am less supicious of the lesser known.

We can be very, very sure that roles were distributed completely randomly and everyone had an equal that of being scum.

[faust]

Scummy vibe is just a lack of coffee.

But in the spirit of Lynch All Lurkers
Vote:muenstercheese for being all excited and now suspiciously absent

Lurker lynching is all well and good but what do you think of the game so far? Does any player seem more likely to be town or scum to you?

Hell if I know! It seems like with the number of brand spanking new folks and our general lack of know-how, two of us are not likely to be scum. We wouldn’t know what to do! You’d want a vet in at least one of the spots, right? So, I am less supicious of the lesser known.

We can be very, very sure that roles were distributed completely randomly and everyone had an equal that chance of being scum.

EBWOP

(That stands for Edit By Way Of Post, i.e. I posted something that I want to correct and since we're are not allowed to modify posts, I quote the wrong post and point out what I actually meant to say)

[faust]

Doesn't your first game predate mine?

It might, I don't know. Anyway, newb!me spammed the crap out of a game and I was town but I think I did more to help the scumteam in terms of creating town apathy than I did anything else. If I think I had a correct scumread on Robz that no one listened to, partly because I drowned myself out in walls of vote count and post count nonsense.

Well let me tell you that I can think of no game where I would say that town was crippled by a townie posting too much, but on the other hand there were a plethora of instances where town lost because people weren't active enough. So I would ask you to not restrain yourself.

[faust]

Whcih goes for everybody obviously.

[Uncleeurope]

@uncle, you still have zero posts, does that mean you have to fill out something every time you want to post?

If so that'll disappear if you make a post somwewhere where it counts. The random stuff thread, for example. http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=18043.msg764966#new

There, I think I did it, thanks.

I was seriously starting to get the feeling I would be in some insane asylum blubbering about captchas in the near future.

[hypercube]

How do you to know each other? Do you think you are likely to be better at reading each other than average?

Just from the Dominion Discord (the running away thing is regarding crew battle challenges on there). I doubt I have any special insight; maybe the lurking makes them slightly more likely to be scum. I'm ok with where my vote is at the moment though.

[muenstercheese]

vote: father-brother-continent

[faust]

vote: father-brother-continent

Do you have anything else to contribute?

[alinatolm]

Oh, I've lost the whole conversation about identity! I'm definitely 'she'

[silverspawn]

Very slow start here. How about this: everyone vote for someone in their next post

vote: muenstercheese

[Simon Jester]

vote: father-brother-continent

This is just too odd.

vote: muenstercheese

[faust]

Very slow start here. How about this: everyone vote for someone in their next post

vote: muenstercheese

Can you explain how your voting will help us get the game started?

[hypercube]

I'll post some thoughts on things, hopefully that will help.

None of that is alignment-indicative though. And neither is this: I'm town.

If you're town, isn't saying "I'm town" literally indicating your alignment?

[hypercube]

ooooh, Omgus! Fight, Fight, Fight!!

translucent vote: Simon for formenting conflict.

Asch, conflict is good, irregardless if it's fabricated, silly or whatever. What is fishy is to try to dial down a potential subject of conversation. Town wants to have many interactions D1 a so we can go back later days and study them when we have more revealed information.

PPE

So c'mone, be a pro-town player and go hunt down scum!silver, attaboy!

Scum probably wants to encourage things like OMGUS though, especially if it's between two town, since it leads to emotional reactions and lets them hide.

[hypercube]

Vote: alinatolm

Either he is killing a talker, or he is killing someone he thinks is intelligent enough to be a threat, you decide. Ima just vote for the guy to see what happens.

I agree that trying to leave the more experienced players alive for the early going is probably a good idea.

[hypercube]

But in the spirit of Lynch All Lurkers
Vote:muenstercheese for being all excited and now suspiciously absent

This is a very fast turn around from "voting for lurkers is no bueno."

[faust]

But in the spirit of Lynch All Lurkers
Vote:muenstercheese for being all excited and now suspiciously absent

This is a very fast turn around from "voting for lurkers is no bueno."

Good point.

Vote: WCD

[hypercube]

vote: father-brother-continent

This is possibly too apathetic to be scum, or at least if they're scum we can count on them to be apathetic scum.

[WestCoastDidds]

But in the spirit of Lynch All Lurkers
Vote:muenstercheese for being all excited and now suspiciously absent

This is a very fast turn around from "voting for lurkers is no bueno."

I’m learning, so taking advice when it’s offered. You said lurkers are suspicious, and I was one of the only two people who hadn’t voted, so I voted for the other. Your reason that lurkers are suspicious was more substantive than any other vote thus far.

I’m quite literally figuring this out as we go along...

[WestCoastDidds]

And the only single thing we have heard from muenstercheese at all is the weird father-brother-continent vote. Weird, right?

[hypercube]

Very slow start here. How about this: everyone vote for someone in their next post

vote: muenstercheese

Can you explain how your voting will help us get the game started?

Agreed that "let's move things along by voting. [policy vote]" isn't actually helpful.

vote: silverspawn

[alinatolm]

Vote: alinatolm

Either he is killing a talker, or he is killing someone he thinks is intelligent enough to be a threat, you decide. Ima just vote for the guy to see what happens.

I agree that trying to leave the more experienced players alive for the early going is probably a good idea.

To be honest, I'm not sure it is a good strategy. If you play for a long time, it means you can hide your true nature professionally.

[Uncleeurope]

And the only single thing we have heard from muenstercheese at all is the weird father-brother-continent vote. Weird, right?

To be fair I believe it was a vote directed at me.

About the "voting in next post" thing, I am very content with my current vote, am I supposed to change it? Or was that just calling out all the non-voters? Either way I think I will keep everything as is for the time being.

[silverspawn]

Very slow start here. How about this: everyone vote for someone in their next post

vote: muenstercheese

Can you explain how your voting will help us get the game started?

No.

[silverspawn]

But in the spirit of Lynch All Lurkers
Vote:muenstercheese for being all excited and now suspiciously absent

This is a very fast turn around from "voting for lurkers is no bueno."

Good point.

Vote: WCD

sure, vote: WCD

[LaLight]

Vote Count 1.3

UmbrageOfSnow (1): alinatolm
alinatolm (1): Uncleeurope
muenstercheese (2): WestCoastDidds, Simon Jester
WestCoastDidds (2): faust, silverspawn
silverspawn (1): hypercube
Not Voting (2): UmbrageOfSnow, muenstercheese

With 9 alive it takes 5 to lynch. Day 1 ends Wednesday, August 22 at 5am forum time.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

Scum probably wants to encourage things like OMGUS though, especially if it's between two town, since it leads to emotional reactions and lets them hide.

I feel like emotions make it easier to sort people rather than easier for scum to hide. Scum can manipulate town using emotions for sure, but I think it helps with reads.

This is possibly too apathetic to be scum, or at least if they're scum we can count on them to be apathetic scum.

No such thing as too apathetic to be scum, and apathetic scum can be very hard to catch. They can sit back as town tears itself apart and no one really wonders why they are still alive or has any way to sort them from town. Letting apathetic scum off the hook lets apathetic scum win games.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

You said lurkers are suspicious, and I was one of the only two people who hadn’t voted, so I voted for the other. Your reason that lurkers are suspicious was more substantive than any other vote thus far.

So you were worried you looked suspicious?

[WestCoastDidds]

What is OMGUS?

I’m not worried that I’d look suscious, rather I was trying to find some reason to vote one way of another since it seems so rando.

But two of the veterans targeting the new kid....that seems all kinds of scummy.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

What is OMGUS?

It stands for "Oh My God You Suck," when someone votes the person voting for them, it's a good way for scum to discredit votes on themselves and so can be sort of a tell that way, but it's also just common with new players in general. Town tends to get emotional and mistakenly scumread people voting for them because "if you're voting for me then you can't see how obviously town I am, you must be scum!" which is often untrue.

Basically it's something that can be a good reason to find someone scummy that gets abused and is often meaningless.

By the way, confirmation bias is sometimes called confbias.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

I’m not worried that I’d look suscious, rather I was trying to find some reason to vote one way of another since it seems so rando.

But two of the veterans targeting the new kid....that seems all kinds of scummy.

Why is that scummy?

Is 3 a less scummy number than 2?

Vote: WestCoastDidds

[WestCoastDidds]

Why is that scummy?

Is 3 a less scummy number than 2?

Vote: WestCoastDidds

I thought the point was ask questions and learn, but that just leads to votes. So, if I want to keep playing, better to just watch? The only thing I’ve learned so far, other than the acronyms (thank you) is engagement is bad.

[WestCoastDidds]

Sorry....I didn’t mean to make my text part of your quote.

I thought the point was ask questions and learn, but that just leads to votes. So, if I want to keep playing, better to just watch? The only thing I’ve learned so far, other than the acronyms (thank you) is engagement is bad.

[silverspawn]

I thought the point was ask questions and learn, but that just leads to votes. So, if I want to keep playing, better to just watch? The only thing I’ve learned so far, other than the acronyms (thank you) is engagement is bad.

So this is an interesting post. I suspect that you probably suspect that we think engagement is actually good. Therefore, you put pressure on us to stop voting for you in order to prove that it's actually good.

Would you agree or deny that this was your intention?

[UmbrageOfSnow]

I thought the point was ask questions and learn, but that just leads to votes. So, if I want to keep playing, better to just watch? The only thing I’ve learned so far, other than the acronyms (thank you) is engagement is bad.

That's really the wrong lesson to take away from this. I'm not voting you because you asked questions, I'm voting for you because of your reaction to pressure. It would still take 2 more votes to lynch you and there is plenty of time left in the day for people to change their minds. Don't just throw up your hands and give up hope, I know it can be frustrating.

For the record, the other person I most want to be voting for right now is muenstercheese, so that's how lurking works out.

Take a deep breath, think about it, and answer some questions:
1. Is it scummy that Faust voted for you? Why or why not?
2. Why is it scummy that Silverspawn voted for you?
3. Is it scummy that I voted for you? Why or why not?
4. Other than the three of us, you, and muenster, who do you think is most likely to be TOWN in this game?
5. Why?

None of these have objective answers, but they are all questions worth thinking about and answering, both for yourself and to help people read you.

[Uncleeurope]

Sorry....I didn’t mean to make my text part of your quote.

I thought the point was ask questions and learn, but that just leads to votes. So, if I want to keep playing, better to just watch? The only thing I’ve learned so far, other than the acronyms (thank you) is engagement is bad.

I don’t think your engagement is the problem, I would think it’s just how squirrelly your engagement has been his far. You look a touch guilty.

[faust]

I’m not worried that I’d look suscious, rather I was trying to find some reason to vote one way of another since it seems so rando.

But two of the veterans targeting the new kid....that seems all kinds of scummy.

Why is that scummy?

Is 3 a less scummy number than 2?

Vote: WestCoastDidds

Meh.

Vote: UoS

[UmbrageOfSnow]

Am I coming across like I have multiple personality disorder here?

[WestCoastDidds]

I thought the point was ask questions and learn, but that just leads to votes. So, if I want to keep playing, better to just watch? The only thing I’ve learned so far, other than the acronyms (thank you) is engagement is bad.

So this is an interesting post. I suspect that you probably suspect that we think engagement is actually good. Therefore, you put pressure on us to stop voting for you in order to prove that it's actually good.

Would you agree or deny that this was your intention?

No real intention of any sort. Just pointing out that this is what is happening. Mostly, I’m just confused. Earlier someone said we need to engage, we need to vote!  So I tried that out. Result= people vote for me. The people who are just chilling (Alina, Muenster) are far safer. So there must be some lower level of engagement that is preferable.

I also don’t have a sense of why folks are voting. When someone gave me a good reason, I followed it and that made me look guilty, or squirrely or whatever. So, perhaps I need to be less forthcoming and more observant. (Which is probably true IRL, too.)

Thanks for the help, UoS. It’s helpful to know how ya’ll are thinking about things and the kinds of questions that I should consider.

So, what happens next? How do we get more/better information? What happens when day one ends?

[UmbrageOfSnow]

Mostly, I’m just confused. Earlier someone said we need to engage, we need to vote!  So I tried that out. Result= people vote for me. The people who are just chilling (Alina, Muenster) are far safer. So there must be some lower level of engagement that is preferable.

I have felt this way so many times. As you may have noticed, I tend to be more talkative than average. I feel like most games that gets me initially townread and then a certain amount of scumreads no matter what I do. But it's not because I talk, it's because I say a bunch of stuff and sooner or later some of it makes people think I'm scummy. Lurkers have less shots at this and so it can feel bad, but you can also often talk your way out of being lynched just like you talk your way into it.

I also don’t have a sense of why folks are voting.

Admittedly the reasons are all still a bit weaker right now, but it's no longer random. Sometimes people are cagey about their reasons. In my case it was partly to see how you reacted to increased pressure and partly because of how you had reacted to pressure so far.

When someone gave me a good reason, I followed it and that made me look guilty, or squirrely or whatever. So, perhaps I need to be less forthcoming and more observant. (Which is probably true IRL, too.)

You should try to think for yourself. You should definitely look at being more observant, but there's nothing wrong with being forthcoming.

Incidentally, this kind of thing is part of what is making you look suspicious, it looks like you're appealing to everyone's emotions rather than logic, like we should pity you and therefore not vote for you, which can be a good scum tactic. (I do know it can also come out of genuine frustration, but that's some of what I'm seeing at least.)

So, what happens next? How do we get more/better information? What happens when day one ends?

Well one thing you could do is literally answer the questions I gave you. Think about them, (also, I don't really think Silverspawn was scummy for that, I phrased it that way because you had commented that it was and I want to know why you said that.)

Day 1 ends when we lynch someone. That person dies and gets access to a spectator thread where a few other people have probably already posted some of their observations of the game. We go to Night where only the scumteam can talk, they pick a townie to die and the next Day, that person goes to the spectator thread and can't post here anymore either, Power Roles have their results and everyone has 2 players who we absolutely know the alignment of. If I'm still alive I then look back at Day 1 in light of those two new things I know and see if it changes my opinion on anything.

[WestCoastDidds]

Thanks for the insight. I appreciate the help.

[silverspawn]

For the record, my vote was entirely for pressure. Now is the first time that I think I have some kind of read, and it's a town read on WCD. Don't particularly want to explain why.

back to vote: uncle

[UmbrageOfSnow]

Seriously guys? I waited a day hoping someone would ask me what I thought of Faust’s vote on me so I could respond with “meh” and now it won’t be funny at all.

MuensterCheese is a couple hours away from the 2nd prod

@Alinatolm: Aside from whether or not you should focus on experienced or inexperienced players, what other thoughts do you have? Did my push on WestCoastDidds seem more towny or more scummy to you? Why?

Vote: Uncleeurope
You being this quiet I know is unusual. Trying not to draw attention while subtly defending me out of the gate?

[Simon Jester]

Hm. This game is hard to get a good feeling of, but I can't help to get a new!scum- vibe from Westcoast. Let's see what some real pressure might do: vote: Westcoast

[UmbrageOfSnow]

Hm. This game is hard to get a good feeling of, but I can't help to get a new!scum- vibe from Westcoast. Let's see what some real pressure might do: vote: Westcoast

Interesting timing

[Simon Jester]

Hm. This game is hard to get a good feeling of, but I can't help to get a new!scum- vibe from Westcoast. Let's see what some real pressure might do: vote: Westcoast

Interesting timing

You think?

[silverspawn]

There is no recipe for getting a game started. We just joke around until reads form and then it goes from there. Sometimes that happens more quickly than other times. This is one of the slowest games in memory. A bit unfortunate as an introduction.

I was hoping to cause some kind of drama with my bossy "everyone vote" post, even just someone saying I was scummy for it or discussing it or anything

As it looks right now we're headed towards lynching someone with fairly little information. I think it can't be a vet. There are only three. If we lynch one and one dies in the night there's only one. If that one is scum, that's super bad news.

So probably a lynch ona new player is incoming. I don't want it to be WCD, but I'm still fairly undecided between the others.

uncle is my defualt pick. If you are town, then prove it.

[WestCoastDidds]

The arg for saving the vets is solid.

Muenstercheese was my vote a while back, and still is because if we are going to vote out a new person, they are the one we know the least about. Literally one post that was just a vote. Alina has shared marginally more, but very little as well. Uncleeurope too, yeah?

I have shared all my wide-eyed innocence. If it’s scummy, I’m not sure how and also unsure how else I’d learn to play.

[WestCoastDidds]

Simon Jester targeting me, tho? Seems weird since he was for rooting out lurkers and I am dr ideally not.

Interesting timing, indeed.

[alinatolm]

I'm sorry. I just figured out that last time I played Mafia several years ago. And in real life it's so different, you know. You can see emotional reaction from people, who you often already know. It makes process easy because you can guess based on it. Now it's too complicated, and I just read the conversation and try to catch something. But for the moment I haven't any ideas. But! The theory of probability says that every time you need to make an opinion about who is a scum, you should pick different person from previous time. So I'll make a try

vote: faust

[faust]

Muenstercheese was my vote a while back, and still is because if we are going to vote out a new person, they are the one we know the least about. Literally one post that was just a vote.

Yes, but I am hoping that we will get a replacement here.

[faust]

The theory of probability says that every time you need to make an opinion about who is a scum, you should pick different person from previous time.

Does it though?

[faust]

Hm. This game is hard to get a good feeling of, but I can't help to get a new!scum- vibe from Westcoast. Let's see what some real pressure might do: vote: Westcoast

Do you think the previous pressure on WCD was fake pressure, and if so, why?

[faust]

I think WCD, alina and silver are town.

Scummy people are UoS and Simon. I could maybe be convinced against lynching the vet, though Simon doesn't really count as a newbie in my book.

[silverspawn]

UoS is scummy? Why?

[Simon Jester]

I think WCD, alina and silver are town.

Scummy people are UoS and Simon. I could maybe be convinced against lynching the vet, though Simon doesn't really count as a newbie in my book.

Odd people to have a scumvibe on, especially together. UoS feel very townie so far and it's not by their activity as such, it just feel too jittery to be from scum. Your read on me I have no clue on what you are basing it on. I feel I haven't really been engaged in the game yet to be anything than null for most players..

When it comes to WCD my hunch is coming from this post:

No real intention of any sort. Just pointing out that this is what is happening. Mostly, I’m just confused. Earlier someone said we need to engage, we need to vote!  So I tried that out. Result= people vote for me. The people who are just chilling (Alina, Muenster) are far safer. So there must be some lower level of engagement that is preferable.

I also don’t have a sense of why folks are voting. When someone gave me a good reason, I followed it and that made me look guilty, or squirrely or whatever. So, perhaps I need to be less forthcoming and more observant. (Which is probably true IRL, too.)

Thanks for the help, UoS. It’s helpful to know how ya’ll are thinking about things and the kinds of questions that I should consider.

So, what happens next? How do we get more/better information? What happens when day one ends?

 
It reads to me as new!scum trying something in the game, gets heat for it and gets confused and a bit scared but manages to hide it behind being new and flustered generally. It's not much, but it strikes out to me every time I reread.

I might have missed if WCD was on 3 votes before, but that I put them there was what I was referring to anyway.

Faust feels unusually townie and the same goes for silvers.. that is almost scary, but I see the point that we should avoid vets for D1.

Is there any case for Uncleeurope by the way, why are people voting there?

[WestCoastDidds]

Thanks for the prod! I know what my favorite animal is, but not that the game had started.

Alas, voting for lurkers is no bueno. Especially when they are the new newbs. Look at my delightful headgehog outfit. It’s totally town wear.

Voting lurkers is always bueno, newb or not. There can be better cases but chances to catch scum among low posters is always rather high so Lynch All Lurkers Literally is a saying here that is good to listen to.

Scummy vibe from you. Hm.

Simon has been anti-WCD for the start, and then followed it up with “real pressure” comment. Seems like a lot of effort to sway folks against me without any real reason other than noting I have lots of basic questions.

[faust]

UoS is scummy? Why?

I don't like the way he jumped on the WCD wagon,, did not seem genuine. Also we have seen a lot of posts and none of them made me feel any particular town vibe. A lot of them were very explainy, and it's certainly also good for town to do that, but I would expect town to also do other things that are notable and move the game and UoS has been a bit too distant from the game for my taste.

[faust]

Request replacement for muentercheese

It has been 48 hours since that last post, rules states people are subject to replacement at the second prod.

hypercube is also up for prodding soon.

[Simon Jester]

Thanks for the prod! I know what my favorite animal is, but not that the game had started.

Alas, voting for lurkers is no bueno. Especially when they are the new newbs. Look at my delightful headgehog outfit. It’s totally town wear.

Voting lurkers is always bueno, newb or not. There can be better cases but chances to catch scum among low posters is always rather high so Lynch All Lurkers Literally is a saying here that is good to listen to.

Scummy vibe from you. Hm.

Simon has been anti-WCD for the start, and then followed it up with “real pressure” comment. Seems like a lot of effort to sway folks against me without any real reason other than noting I have lots of basic questions.

Yes, you have yet to give me a reason to see you as town. It's not your questions as is, it's more of a tone where you seem.. a tad too worried and self-aware. And you are already accusing me of tunneling you when I'm basically trying out my first real scumread this game. Doesn't really help your case.

Second scum is probably among muenstercheese/hypercube, a bit sad if both of them is gone.

[faust]

Yes, you have yet to give me a reason to see you as town. It's not your questions as is, it's more of a tone where you seem.. a tad too worried and self-aware. And you are already accusing me of tunneling you when I'm basically trying out my first real scumread this game. Doesn't really help your case.

I don't want to open a whole can of worms... but I think this is more a character-thing than an alignment one.

Second scum is probably among muenstercheese/hypercube, a bit sad if both of them is gone.

Why should this be the case?

[Simon Jester]

Second scum is probably among muenstercheese/hypercube, a bit sad if both of them is gone.

Why should this be the case?
[/quote]

I have no other scumread than WCD, all others seems fairly townie which makes me assume last scum could be among the players not actually playing. 

[faust]

So can you explain why you think the other are all townie?

[Simon Jester]

I think I already have done that to some extent to be honest, but sure:

UoS activity I read as town. You have a point that his post is not too game- oriented, but I would almost feel that a happy scum!UoS would focus more on being pro-town in that way in his first posts. Could be swayed here I guess, but right now I lean townie on him.

You are your usual pro-town you and it's easy to townread you by default. I have seen nothing that defer to that this game.

Silver is the same, a useful and good vet. Has done nothing to make the game weird or crazy, even though he said he tried to do that with the votething I think his suggestion was good and moved the game forward somewhat.
 
I liked Alinas posts, there is a confidence there that comes off as townie to me. Would need some more activity to have a more confident read though. Why do you read them as town? 

Uncleeurope is perfectly and utterly null, if anyone can weigh in on them I would appreciate it.

hypercube and muenstercheese left and yeah, wouldn't blow my mind if there is one scum there.

[faust]

Uncleeurope is perfectly and utterly null, if anyone can weigh in on them I would appreciate it.

So you think that Unlce is null, but at the same time:

all others seems fairly townie

Which one is it?

[faust]

I liked Alinas posts, there is a confidence there that comes off as townie to me. Would need some more activity to have a more confident read though. Why do you read them as town? 

Mostly just gut reads. The votes she placed seemed to come from a newbie!town perspective.

[mcmcsalot]

/tag

[Simon Jester]

Uncleeurope is perfectly and utterly null, if anyone can weigh in on them I would appreciate it.

So you think that Unlce is null, but at the same time:

all others seems fairly townie

Which one is it?

Fairly. That was including null to townreads. Waiting for the case on uncle to be better explained, until then I'm fine with "fairly townie" on them for sure.

[LaLight]

Vote Count 1.4

UmbrageOfSnow (1): faust
alinatolm (1): Uncleeurope
muenstercheese (2): WestCoastDidds, Simon Jester
silverspawn (1): hypercube
Uncleeurope (2): silverspawn, UmbrageOfSnow
faust (1): alinatolm
Not Voting (1): muenstercheese

With 9 alive it takes 5 to lynch. Day 1 ends Wednesday, August 22 at 5am forum time.

hypercube prodded, replacemewnt for muenstercheese is on the way.

[Simon Jester]

Huh, I thought WCD would be at 3 votes and now there is none there..

Both ss and faust moved away yeah, but mine wasn't counted.

vote: Westcoastdidds to have my stance on record.

[Uncleeurope]

Real life got amped up right as I was voted for, and I knew my next post would me a bit more mentally taxing than he average one, so I put it off.

That being said, my case it that since a decent chunk of people are saying cheese has a good shot at being evil. (At least from what I can tell, a lot of people appear to be saying opinions halfwayishly.) Well, cheese voted for me. That's the best defense I got right now.

If a replacement for cheese is inevitable, I would like to wait a bit to see how his replacement responds before settling a vote in that direction.

As for my vote on Alin, I still can't shake the scum read I had there completely, but I feel weathered down by all the positive reactions you people are having to her. the next people on my list here are cheese, cube, and I have a weird feeling about faust. (Mainly because he seems really nit-picky about phrasing, he honestly could be fine)

Ehhh, don't wanna vote for cheese until a replacement is figured out... So I guess... Vote: Faust (Yes, I realize I skipped over cube in my list, so sue me, this vote is more interesting)

Also, side note, I find it hilarious that this is a newbie game, and the strat has become to save the vets. I get the logic, it just amuses me immensely.

[silverspawn]

who or what is cheese?

[WestCoastDidds]

who or what is cheese?

Muenstercheese, I think

[Uncleeurope]

who or what is cheese?

Muenstercheese, I think

Yup.

[hypercube]

The theory of probability says that every time you need to make an opinion about who is a scum, you should pick different person from previous time. So I'll make a try

vote: faust

I'm curious as to what this theory of probability is.

[WestCoastDidds]

Happy Sunday! I just had cookies for breakfast so it’s sure to be a good day. The predicted high is 104F, though, so maybe I am speaking too soon. Nothing like having to hide inside because the planet is roasting. Good times!

Anyway....so Muenstercheese is to be replaced? Does that mean new folks will slot into their roles and we kind of start from scratch on reading them, on our current time line?

[hypercube]

alina and Europe voting for faust without a stated reason is somewhat suspicious to me, explanation please?

[hypercube]

Apologies for not posting yesterday, although I disagree with Simon's characterization of me as "not playing."

[Simon Jester]

Apologies for not posting yesterday, although I disagree with Simon's characterization of me as "not playing."

Sorry, was just refering to the prodding-business. Please feel free to make me notice you further.

Actually, a reread of you makes me fairly suspicious of you. Short posts, no strong stances really. I know it's hard to get into a game, but you give off a feeling that you don't really want anything to happen. You criticised me for jokingly trying to incite an omgus- argument and silver for his voting proposal. A stagnate game is good for scum, I think you just might be the scum I assumed would be found among you and muenstercheese.

So.. are you?

[Simon Jester]

alina and Europe voting for faust without a stated reason is somewhat suspicious to me, explanation please?

I believe Europe is voting faust for his nitpicky attitude, mainly showing against me above. I think this is wrong, it's a bit annoying but probably a good scumhunt- method which I assume is what is going on. 

I agree though that alinas vote is a bit out of place. What more than the "probability argument" is there for the vote, alinas? Do you have any further scumreads? 

[silverspawn]

Happy Sunday! I just had cookies for breakfast so it’s sure to be a good day. The predicted high is 104F, though, so maybe I am speaking too soon. Nothing like having to hide inside because the planet is roasting. Good times!

Anyway....so Muenstercheese is to be replaced? Does that mean new folks will slot into their roles and we kind of start from scratch on reading them, on our current time line?

Yup. (on both counts)

[silverspawn]

faust asking questions is a very faust thing to do. I also think it's a pro-town thing to so. it's definitely not a town tell, because he'd do it as scum, but it's not a scum tell, either.

[Uncleeurope]

alina and Europe voting for faust without a stated reason is somewhat suspicious to me, explanation please?

I mean, I felt I was fairly transparent, about my reasoning, you can disagree with the reasoning as Jester does, but the reasoning still exists. I am prodding a prodded.

The snarky side of myself wants to throw a vote at you now with no explaination given just for fun, but I have just given the explaination (“for fun”) so I guess it’s too late. Bummer.

[Uncleeurope]

alina and Europe voting for faust without a stated reason is somewhat suspicious to me, explanation please?

I mean, I felt I was fairly transparent, about my reasoning, you can disagree with the reasoning as Jester does, but the reasoning still exists. I am prodding a prodder.

The snarky side of myself wants to throw a vote at you now with no explaination given just for fun, but I have just given the explaination (“for fun”) so I guess it’s too late. Bummer.

Autocorrect telling me “prodder” isn’t a thing, pffft.

[LaLight]

phyphor replaces muenstercheese, effective immediately. I can’t do a vote count until evening

[Simon Jester]

phyphar replaces muenstercheese, effective immediately. I can’t do a vote count until evening

Welcome Phyphar! Standard questions: Any previous mafia experience, preferred pronouns and most importantly.. are you scum?

[faust]

Does anyone find the name "Uncle Europe" curious? I mean Europa was mythologically a woman and hence would have a hard time being an uncle. So maybe it means "uncle of Europe" some research leads me to on of her uncles: Belos, King of Egypt (and son of Poseidon).

So I think Belos should totally be a valid nickname for Uncleeurope.

[faust]

Nothing like having to hide inside because the planet is roasting.

Don't think we couldn't roast you as well.

[Simon Jester]

Does anyone find the name "Uncle Europe" curious? I mean Europa was mythologically a woman and hence would have a hard time being an uncle. So maybe it means "uncle of Europe" some research leads me to on of her uncles: Belos, King of Egypt (and son of Poseidon).

So I think Belos should totally be a valid nickname for Uncleeurope.

The first google-post suggests it has to do with Edward VII and the creation of Entente Cordiale.. the more you know.

[WestCoastDidds]

Nothing like having to hide inside because the planet is roasting.

Don't think we couldn't roast you as well.

True enough. Thus, the importance of cookie breakfast. Because if your gonna get fried, at least you enjoyed some quality baked good satisfaction along the way.

[Uncleeurope]

Does anyone find the name "Uncle Europe" curious? I mean Europa was mythologically a woman and hence would have a hard time being an uncle. So maybe it means "uncle of Europe" some research leads me to on of her uncles: Belos, King of Egypt (and son of Poseidon).

So I think Belos should totally be a valid nickname for Uncleeurope.

I am going to pretend that a logical reasoning behind my name exists. Mainly because listening to over people attempt to decipher it is a lot more enjoyable than expected.

[Uncleeurope]

Does anyone find the name "Uncle Europe" curious? I mean Europa was mythologically a woman and hence would have a hard time being an uncle. So maybe it means "uncle of Europe" some research leads me to on of her uncles: Belos, King of Egypt (and son of Poseidon).

So I think Belos should totally be a valid nickname for Uncleeurope.

I am going to pretend that a logical reasoning behind my name exists. Mainly because listening to other people attempt to decipher it is a lot more enjoyable than expected.

Fixed

I need to stop doing this on my phone.

[phyphor]

phyphar replaces muenstercheese, effective immediately. I can’t do a vote count until evening

Welcome Phyphar! Standard questions: Any previous mafia experience, preferred pronouns and most importantly.. are you scum?

0) LaLight can't spell - my name is phyphor
1) Yes
2) it/its
3) no


Vote: Uncleeurope

Partially to save my own back, but also because setting up three of us to share the votes (by switching to Faust) means we are unlikely to lynch on Day 1.

In general we want to lynch every day, but whilst Day 1 is a day with little information which makes it hard to do a good lynching if we don't lynch anyone we run the risk of having the Mafia take out the good townies (be it because they're good at Mafia or have had to role-claim to save their skin).

[Simon Jester]

Partially to save my own back, but also because setting up three of us to share the votes (by switching to Faust) means we are unlikely to lynch on Day 1.

In general we want to lynch every day, but whilst Day 1 is a day with little information which makes it hard to do a good lynching if we don't lynch anyone we run the risk of having the Mafia take out the good townies (be it because they're good at Mafia or have had to role-claim to save their skin).

It's unclear if you mean that a no-lynch D1 is good or not. It's very much NOT good to no-lynch here. Sure, due to the little information we have it's likely we are hitting town, but the information the lynch is gathering is key to have a useful D2. Without a lynch we are doomed to repeat D1 only with fewer players left.

Maf will most likely kill out the best/towniest town players by their NK no matter what we do. Scum has not that much influence over our lynch though, which is why it's so important to use, also in D1.

[hypercube]

Apologies for not posting yesterday, although I disagree with Simon's characterization of me as "not playing."

Sorry, was just refering to the prodding-business. Please feel free to make me notice you further.

Actually, a reread of you makes me fairly suspicious of you. Short posts, no strong stances really. I know it's hard to get into a game, but you give off a feeling that you don't really want anything to happen. You criticised me for jokingly trying to incite an omgus- argument and silver for his voting proposal. A stagnate game is good for scum, I think you just might be the scum I assumed would be found among you and muenstercheese.

So.. are you?

There hasn't been too much analysis to do thus far; there's been lots of posts without any content which I'm able to use to make reads. I would rather not contribute to that unless I have something actually helpful to say. My reads early on were focused on looking for people who seemed like they were trying to be helpful without actually being helpful, which caused me to scumread you and silver somewhat. My criticism of silver wasn't that he made the voting proposal, but rather that he made it while placing a vote that didn't inspire discussion.

I'm town, as I've already pointed out.

[hypercube]

alina and Europe voting for faust without a stated reason is somewhat suspicious to me, explanation please?

I mean, I felt I was fairly transparent, about my reasoning, you can disagree with the reasoning as Jester does, but the reasoning still exists. I am prodding a prodded.

The snarky side of myself wants to throw a vote at you now with no explaination given just for fun, but I have just given the explaination (“for fun”) so I guess it’s too late. Bummer.

Voting for someone because they're nitpicking seems pretty arbitrary. What makes the nitpicking scummy specifically?

I'm happy to vote for Uncleeurope but am holding off for now to not put him at L-1.

[Simon Jester]

Apologies for not posting yesterday, although I disagree with Simon's characterization of me as "not playing."

Sorry, was just refering to the prodding-business. Please feel free to make me notice you further.

Actually, a reread of you makes me fairly suspicious of you. Short posts, no strong stances really. I know it's hard to get into a game, but you give off a feeling that you don't really want anything to happen. You criticised me for jokingly trying to incite an omgus- argument and silver for his voting proposal. A stagnate game is good for scum, I think you just might be the scum I assumed would be found among you and muenstercheese.

So.. are you?

There hasn't been too much analysis to do thus far; there's been lots of posts without any content which I'm able to use to make reads. I would rather not contribute to that unless I have something actually helpful to say. My reads early on were focused on looking for people who seemed like they were trying to be helpful without actually being helpful, which caused me to scumread you and silver somewhat. My criticism of silver wasn't that he made the voting proposal, but rather that he made it while placing a vote that didn't inspire discussion.

I'm town, as I've already pointed out.

Well, there is a little more to go on by now, I would say. Care to share any reads?

ppe

Again: Is there a case against Eddie I can look closer into?

[silverspawn]

2) it/its

Wait, really? I don't have a problem with that but it strikes me as so unusual that I want to make sure you aren't joking.

[WestCoastDidds]

Eddie?

[Uncleeurope]

alina and Europe voting for faust without a stated reason is somewhat suspicious to me, explanation please?

I mean, I felt I was fairly transparent, about my reasoning, you can disagree with the reasoning as Jester does, but the reasoning still exists. I am prodding a prodded.

The snarky side of myself wants to throw a vote at you now with no explaination given just for fun, but I have just given the explaination (“for fun”) so I guess it’s too late. Bummer.

Voting for someone because they're nitpicking seems pretty arbitrary. What makes the nitpicking scummy specifically?

I'm happy to vote for Uncleeurope but am holding off for now to not put him at L-1.

Nothing makes nitpicking scummy specifically, it is, however, the reason that caused to to raise an eyebrow in his direction. Often times I have seen the baddies in these games jump on things that look like logical inconsistencies, but are actually just phrasing discrepancies and claim that there is a deeper meaning to be found. (Ima be honest, I do this when I am a baddie, write that one down) It is a good way to seem like you are contributing to sleuthing, while actually just saying nothing significant.

The whole "Aha! Gottem!" vibe he gave me when comparing two statements made by Jester was a bit odd. Honestly I know little about Faust's play style and it seems this is normal behavior for him. Fair enough, helpful information I didn't know prior and now know, thanks to me voting. Ima count it as a win.

Sadly the two people at the top of my list (The newly acquired Phyphor and our friend cube, here) both seem to have an interest in ending my life. Which is unfortunate, any vote to them will now look self-defensive. Does that mean I won't vote for them at all? No, as you are probably already aware due to the bold font that drew your eyes immediately: Ima Vote: hypercube

He doesn't have a vote yes, as far as I can see, and that makes him a safer pick than phyphor.

[Simon Jester]

Eddie?

Sorry, was referring to Uncleeurope, but the wiki-article about Edward VII was really intense. Cool dude, fascinating era.

[silverspawn]

Eddie is a great nickname.

[faust]

Nothing makes nitpicking scummy specifically, it is, however, the reason that caused to to raise an eyebrow in his direction. Often times I have seen the baddies in these games jump on things that look like logical inconsistencies, but are actually just phrasing discrepancies and claim that there is a deeper meaning to be found. (Ima be honest, I do this when I am a baddie, write that one down) It is a good way to seem like you are contributing to sleuthing, while actually just saying nothing significant.

I still think it was a logical inconstency. Simon argued that two lurkers should have one scum among them because the others are all townie, and then it turned out he doesn't actually townread everyone else, so it doesn't make much sense to narrow it down to those two, it was arbitrary and he could have included you, but didn't. Which strikes me as manipulative because had he ended up with "1 of those 3 is probably scum", it would be harder to justify a vote on them.

[faust]

Partially to save my own back, but also because setting up three of us to share the votes (by switching to Faust) means we are unlikely to lynch on Day 1.

We are not close to the deadline, so I don't think there is anything wrong - or scummy - in not consolidating wagons yet.

[Uncleeurope]

Nothing makes nitpicking scummy specifically, it is, however, the reason that caused to to raise an eyebrow in his direction. Often times I have seen the baddies in these games jump on things that look like logical inconsistencies, but are actually just phrasing discrepancies and claim that there is a deeper meaning to be found. (Ima be honest, I do this when I am a baddie, write that one down) It is a good way to seem like you are contributing to sleuthing, while actually just saying nothing significant.

I still think it was a logical inconstency. Simon argued that two lurkers should have one scum among them because the others are all townie, and then it turned out he doesn't actually townread everyone else, so it doesn't make much sense to narrow it down to those two, it was arbitrary and he could have included you, but didn't. Which strikes me as manipulative because had he ended up with "1 of those 3 is probably scum", it would be harder to justify a vote on them.

Yeah, that's fair.

[WestCoastDidds]

How many times, would you estimate, that we have to go back and read from the start? Does that happen over and over again. Anyway, it was a good exercise.

"Appearing to be helpful without actually being helpful" (proposed by both Uncle and Simon) seems a useful criteria, and by that one Hypercube is aces. Lots of one-line commentary that revealed little, and jumping on the Uncle wagon, but remarking on the kindness of being amenable but not wanting to but him on L-1, seems an attempt to bolster his town-cred without actually having to do anything. My current most scummy.

Uncle Eddie doesn't seem at all concerned to have a heap of votes, and says Phy and HyperC are at the top of his list. I am not exactly sure why, though. If one of them was his scum partner would he be elevating them like that? Or is it fairly low risk regardless since Phy is new to the game and there hasn't been much discussion of HyperC?  More scummy than town for me but just barely.

Simon seems to be trying to get things going and stirring things up. Other than his squeamishness about me, its been rather erratic, but when he draws down on Hypercube, the response was along the lines well, there hasn't been much to say and I don't want to chatter needlessly. Faust saying that Simon doesn't really count as a newb is interesting, too. Still, it doesn't really feel like he is working with anyone so townish. But I am more on the fence about him than other towns.

silver and Faust have a townie feel, and have shared their thinking about who is town, etc earlier on in a "the vets can show you how we do" way that I found helpful. The nitpicking actually serves to remind me that this particular fora is one where words matter because its all we've got to go on.

Alina seems about as freshly scrubbed as I am, and isn't really trying to move the game forward at all, so townish. I feel like that is where I am at as well.  I am not moving the game forward other than sharing information about myself and asking questions, so many questions.   

What has become of UofS???  He was all over and now crickets.  I don't have a scummy feeling about that necessarily because he didn't stir the pot significantly before fading, but it is different. Maybe that is just weekend real life?

So, I have five townish to some extent (Simon, silver, faust, alina, WCD)
Two scummyish (HyperC, Uncle)
Two need more info: Phy and Umbrage

My vote was on Muenster before so I think I am currently without a vote. Vote: Hypercube

Also, Eddie is a GREAT nickname for such a grand handle as UncleEurope.

[faust]

How many times, would you estimate, that we have to go back and read from the start? Does that happen over and over again. Anyway, it was a good exercise.

Usually you would do it at most once after D1. There is also the option of targeted reread, where you only read through a specific player's posts, which will occur more frequently.

[Simon Jester]

Great post, and I agree with much of your observations. Sorry about the "erratic" case against you, the vibe I observed in your earlier posts isn't here at all so I will leave it for now, I think. First hunches are what they are.

I wonder a bit about your view of Alina. Do you think it is townie to not move the game forward or are you just giving her sort of a newbie-pass in general? I'm eager to hear her responses to what have happened recently, right now she sinks a little bit into the scummier areas, more because of vagueness than anything else.

UoS disappearance is odd, yeah. If he wasn't experienced/vet I would almost assume he got scared of Faust and others scumreading him, but nah. Probably V/LA.

And finally, pleased to not be alone with my read on hypercube. That's where I want to go now. vote: Hypercube

[Simon Jester]

How many times, would you estimate, that we have to go back and read from the start? Does that happen over and over again. Anyway, it was a good exercise.

Usually you would do it at most once after D1. There is also the option of targeted reread, where you only read through a specific player's posts, which will occur more frequently.

Oh, on that note. May I ask new players to get a signature? Doesn't have to be anything fancy, just something that makes it possible to search especially for your posts when rereading.

[WestCoastDidds]

By signature you mean the text at the bottom of the post? like your cor.ax?

Also, what is VLA? Thanks

[Simon Jester]

By signature you mean the text at the bottom of the post? like your cor.ax?

Also, what is VLA? Thanks

Yes, precisely. Profile>Modify profile>Forum profile.

Vacation/Low access. If you know that you probably won't be able to post in some time it's good to announce it beforehand. There is a special thread for it here somewhere.

[Uncleeurope]

"Appearing to be helpful without actually being helpful" (proposed by both Uncle and Simon) seems a useful criteria, and by that one Hypercube is aces. Lots of one-line commentary that revealed little, and jumping on the Uncle wagon, but remarking on the kindness of being amenable but not wanting to but him on L-1, seems an attempt to bolster his town-cred without actually having to do anything. My current most scummy.

Uncle Eddie doesn't seem at all concerned to have a heap of votes, and says Phy and HyperC are at the top of his list. I am not exactly sure why, though. If one of them was his scum partner would he be elevating them like that? Or is it fairly low risk regardless since Phy is new to the game and there hasn't been much discussion of HyperC?  More scummy than town for me but just barely.

The first bit kinda answers about my opinion on Hypercube, you and I both came to the same conclusion there. He is trying to sound helpful but isn't saying anything new. (He also offered to kill me if other people were up to it in a weird way, like he was hoping the blood wouldn't be on his hands, super sketchy...) As for Phy, him piggybacking off of cheese, who was uber-scummish, doesn't help his case. I know they have the same role.

Then phy comes in with the goal of not lynching anyone while putting me at vote #3. Super aggressive way to not kill someone. His initial post just struck me as odd, and I get the feeling that would be the case regardless of who he voted for, but I am willing to admit that defensive bias might play into this. I dunno, phy just doesn't sit right with me. And this confusion is ultimately why I went with cube first.

As for the possibility that one of my partners resides with Cube or Phy, the obvious counter would be I am voting for cube and phy is voting for me. And while such things are not proof (votin' for friends be a strat) it is something to consider and my only defense to the claim. *Shrugs*

And as for not being concerned about being voted on a bunch, I have always thought denial is the best medicine for panic.

[Uncleeurope]

By signature you mean the text at the bottom of the post? like your cor.ax?

Also, what is VLA? Thanks

Yes, precisely. Profile>Modify profile>Forum profile.

Vacation/Low access. If you know that you probably won't be able to post in some time it's good to announce it beforehand. There is a special thread for it here somewhere.

Done

[WestCoastDidds]

Eddie, your signature is EVERYTHING!

[WestCoastDidds]

As for Phy, him piggybacking off of cheese, who was uber-scummish, doesn't help his case. I know they have the same role.

Then phy comes in with the goal of not lynching anyone while putting me at vote #3. Super aggressive way to not kill someone. His initial post just struck me as odd, and I get the feeling that would be the case regardless of who he voted for, but I am willing to admit that defensive bias might play into this. I dunno, phy just doesn't sit right with me.

I wonder why Muenster flaked. Was he a vanilla townie and bored by the idea? It seems like if he had been scum he might have felt more compelled to be engaged. But that is 100% impossible to know. I just wonder.

I agree on it (its pronoun choice...sigh) being weird out of the gate and the “it’s gonna be a no lunch” and saying zippo about it’s experience. Super strange to me, but not sure if it’s scummy yet.

[WestCoastDidds]

I wonder a bit about your view of Alina. Do you think it is townie to not move the game forward or are you just giving her sort of a newbie-pass in general? I'm eager to hear her responses to what have happened recently, right now she sinks a little bit into the scummier areas, more because of vagueness than anything else.

Right now, sort of a newbie pass but the expiration date on that is nearing because her engagement level is really low and she hasn’t shared much by way of impression or thoughts in any substantive manner. The longer that takes the more lurkier and scummier it appears. Of course, I am only just now getting to the impression sharing point myself so some slack is okay. That being said, I am also looking forward to her take...

[hypercube]

"Appearing to be helpful without actually being helpful" (proposed by both Uncle and Simon) seems a useful criteria, and by that one Hypercube is aces. Lots of one-line commentary that revealed little, and jumping on the Uncle wagon, but remarking on the kindness of being amenable but not wanting to but him on L-1, seems an attempt to bolster his town-cred without actually having to do anything. My current most scummy.

I would say that I've contributed above average to this game. My observation of your flip-flop regarding lurkers led to a significant discussion of your thoughts there. By comparison I don't think you or Europe have done much other than defend yourselves until this point.

To those who don't like my one-line commentary, well, that's how I'm finding it easiest to read and respond to things so hopefully you'll learn to cope.

Simon seems to be trying to get things going and stirring things up. Other than his squeamishness about me, its been rather erratic, but when he draws down on Hypercube, the response was along the lines well, there hasn't been much to say and I don't want to chatter needlessly. Faust saying that Simon doesn't really count as a newb is interesting, too. Still, it doesn't really feel like he is working with anyone so townish. But I am more on the fence about him than other towns.

I agree with your characterization of Simon as erratic. I've been reading him the most carefully and haven't come up with anything particularly scummy, so right now I think he's just town who rubs me the wrong way a little bit.

[hypercube]

Oh, on that note. May I ask new players to get a signature? Doesn't have to be anything fancy, just something that makes it possible to search especially for your posts when rereading.

You can use "xyrix" to find my posts.

[hypercube]

Well, there is a little more to go on by now, I would say. Care to share any reads?

My strongest scumread at the moment is silver, who has seemed happy to fly under the radar for most of the game. Phypor/muenstercheese have done absolutely nothing towny in their two posts. Uncleeurope's explanation of his vote against faust was decent but he retains a slightly higher than average chance of being scum in my eyes.

You, WCD, and faust are my townreads so far. I agree with the general consensus that WCD did a towny job of talking themselves out of trouble, and faust's thinking has been tracking my own fairly well thus far. The others are null for lack of information mostly.

[faust]

Great post, and I agree with much of your observations. Sorry about the "erratic" case against you, the vibe I observed in your earlier posts isn't here at all so I will leave it for now, I think. First hunches are what they are.

I don't like this at all. Simon scumread WCD, and then she makes a single (admittedly decent) post and he drops the whole thing and even apologizes (!) for making a case. This is a buddying tactic and I would expect town who actually scumreads WCD to be a bit more persistent in their reads.

[faust]

Gotta check out the hyper-cool new wagon we have going.

So I'm doing a targeted reread, also to show that off.

So first notable post is here:

muenstercheese is basically notorious for running away from things so it's not terribly surprising he's not here.

If the cheese/now phyphor is town, then scum!cube has little reason to talk about this. It's a soft defense of one of the at the time most lynchable player.

But in the spirit of Lynch All Lurkers
Vote:muenstercheese for being all excited and now suspiciously absent

This is a very fast turn around from "voting for lurkers is no bueno."

So here is hyper pointing out something strange about WCD's behaviour... but not following up with a vote. Note WCD has only one vote on her at that time. You can of course say that this is scum being hedgy and reluctant to vote, but actually I think scum would be pretty happy to take the opportunity to place a vote that seems more solid.

vote: father-brother-continent

This is possibly too apathetic to be scum, or at least if they're scum we can count on them to be apathetic scum.

Continued defense of cheese.

alina and Europe voting for faust without a stated reason is somewhat suspicious to me, explanation please?

And he comes to my aid! Gotta love that rectangular polyhedron!

I'm happy to vote for Uncleeurope but am holding off for now to not put him at L-1.

This on the other hand is not great. Why do you think Eddie is scum?

My strongest scumread at the moment is silver, who has seemed happy to fly under the radar for most of the game. Phypor/muenstercheese have done absolutely nothing towny in their two posts. Uncleeurope's explanation of his vote against faust was decent but he retains a slightly higher than average chance of being scum in my eyes.

You, WCD, and faust are my townreads so far. I agree with the general consensus that WCD did a towny job of talking themselves out of trouble, and faust's thinking has been tracking my own fairly well thus far. The others are null for lack of information mostly.

And finally some reads. silver is an interesting one, I am not really seeing that but it follows naturally from what hyper posted. Interesting that he defended cheese but now puts phyphor as scummy, though it does make some sense.

Question for you, hypercube: How does it make you feel that two of your scumreads, silver and phyphor, are voting for the third, Eddie?

And this is it. I am not seeing much scumminess. I am also not seeing a lack in content that others have claimed.

[faust]

Full disclosure: I had a gut-felt skepticism of the hyper wagon before starting this reread. I try to not let that influence my assessment, but it is good to be aware of your own biases because you can never fully shut them out.

[Uncleeurope]

Well, it’s nice to see you guys defending each other, at least there’s consistency.

(Also, if you just wanna do one of those nice long posts clearing my name/train too, that’d be awesome.)

[faust]

Well, it’s nice to see you guys defending each other, at least there’s consistency.

(Also, if you just wanna do one of those nice long posts clearing my name/train too, that’d be awesome.)

Well I'm burnt out now... but why don't you just do it yourself?

[Simon Jester]

Great post, and I agree with much of your observations. Sorry about the "erratic" case against you, the vibe I observed in your earlier posts isn't here at all so I will leave it for now, I think. First hunches are what they are.

I don't like this at all. Simon scumread WCD, and then she makes a single (admittedly decent) post and he drops the whole thing and even apologizes (!) for making a case. This is a buddying tactic and I would expect town who actually scumreads WCD to be a bit more persistent in their reads.

Stop being grumpy. I actually felt a little ashamed or "erratic" scumreading a new player mostly for them being jokey and seemingly themselves. I was a bit afraid that could scare her off and I guess that is what showing here. For a certain personality type the first times you get false accusations D1 could be pretty tough, I am that one myself and I hated the first time people used my writing style and tone as argument for scumpainting me, and I just wanted to reassure a bit that it really was "first scumread"- kind of thing from my side. Maybe unnecessary, everybody should know it's only a game after all, but still. I want the new players to enjoy their experience rather than it being too scary and confusing.

By the way Faust, you seem to think that our reads should be firm and steady already. That is very much not the case for me, this early I change almost post to post and since it was basically one post from WCD plus her generally jokeyness that gave me the scumvibe this post makes her more null, not precisely towney. I think firm reads on D1 would be a mistake, since it is built on almost nothing but gut and I think your approach here is odd. I would suspect players that tunneling people this early a lot more, but neither is really alignment-indicative, it depends on the kingdom player.

[hypercube]

Question for you, hypercube: How does it make you feel that two of your scumreads, silver and phyphor, are voting for the third, Eddie?

Silver's vote for Eddie was interesting:

For the record, my vote was entirely for pressure. Now is the first time that I think I have some kind of read, and it's a town read on WCD. Don't particularly want to explain why.

back to vote: uncle

He had never been voting there or expressing suspicion previously. Phypor/cheese's vote there was similarly unexplained. This makes the two of them look significantly worse, and moves Eddie back into nullish.

[LaLight]

Vote Count 1.6

UmbrageOfSnow (1): faust
silverspawn (1): hypercube
Uncleeurope (3): silverspawn, UmbrageOfSnow, phyphor
faust (1): alinatolm
hypercube (3): Uncleeurope, WestCoastDidds, Simon Jester

With 9 alive it takes 5 to lynch. Day 1 ends Wednesday, August 22 at 5am forum time.

replacement for alinatolm is on the way.

[faust]

Too bad about all the replacements. It's probably good that LaLight follows through on those quickly as continued lurking can really slow things down. Unfortunately phyphor is also gone again it seems.

[LaLight]

mcmcsalot replaces alinatolm, effective immediately.

[LaLight]

Vote Count 1.7

UmbrageOfSnow (1): faust
silverspawn (1): hypercube
Uncleeurope (3): silverspawn, UmbrageOfSnow, phyphor
faust (1): mcmcsalot
hypercube (3): Uncleeurope, WestCoastDidds, Simon Jester

With 9 alive it takes 5 to lynch. Day 1 ends Wednesday, August 22 at 5am forum time.

[faust]

mcmcsalot replaces alinatolm, effective immediately.

Curious, I would have expected Awaclus based on how signups went.

[WestCoastDidds]

Too bad about all the replacements. It's probably good that LaLight follows through on those quickly as continued lurking can really slow things down. Unfortunately phyphor is also gone again it seems.

Too bad, indeed. We hadn’t heard from her or UoS since Saturday, and it was becoming super suspicious to me. And then Phy is suspicious to everyone with the odd statements from out of the gate. With those three just absent from the conversation, I wonder if the rest of us are just looking for anything to get a read and back-biting one another due to the lack of engagement from the rest. The fact that we’re all trying to talk maybe makes us all more town than not, or no?

[faust]

Also less than 48 hours to deadline. I am not super excited about either of the existing wagons. Would lynch phyphor over both. But preferably Simon or UoS.

[faust]

Too bad about all the replacements. It's probably good that LaLight follows through on those quickly as continued lurking can really slow things down. Unfortunately phyphor is also gone again it seems.

Too bad, indeed. We hadn’t heard from her or UoS since Saturday, and it was becoming super suspicious to me. And then Phy is suspicious to everyone with the odd statements from out of the gate. With those three just absent from the conversation, I wonder if the rest of us are just looking for anything to get a read and back-biting one another due to the lack of engagement from the rest. The fact that we’re all trying to talk maybe makes us all more town than not, or no?

How active you are very rarely has anything to do with your alignment. Not posting for more than 24 hours is breaking the rules, I would hope that noone does so intentionally. The most likely explanation is that things got busy. But we should prod them as soon as we can.

[silverspawn]

Now that mcmc is here, the vet thing becomes less relevant. But, hm, I don't really want to vote for any of them.

Also less than 48 hours to deadline. I am not super excited about either of the existing wagons. Would lynch phyphor over both. But preferably Simon or UoS.

let's make it happen! vote: Simon

[faust]

vote: Simon

[mcmcsalot]

I’m completely caught up and was following along as the posts came so I haven’t re-read the beginning pages yet. Faust what was your umbrage case I can’t remember it at all and was really surprised when I hit a vote count with your vote on him.

[mcmcsalot]

Oh and unvote

[Simon Jester]

Just checking in to say I'm going to be a bit busy today and tomorrow and won't be able to post much.

Welcome mcmc! I posted some questions to Alina later back, would be happy if you could answer them as relevant as you can, knowing the fact that you, eh, aren't her..

[faust]

I’m completely caught up and was following along as the posts came so I haven’t re-read the beginning pages yet. Faust what was your umbrage case I can’t remember it at all and was really surprised when I hit a vote count with your vote on him.

UoS is scummy? Why?

I don't like the way he jumped on the WCD wagon,, did not seem genuine. Also we have seen a lot of posts and none of them made me feel any particular town vibe. A lot of them were very explainy, and it's certainly also good for town to do that, but I would expect town to also do other things that are notable and move the game and UoS has been a bit too distant from the game for my taste.

[mcmcsalot]

I’ll reread umbrage and see if I get that I actually have a case on someone else ready to go for similar reasons. I’ll post after my reread on unbradge.

[mcmcsalot]

Woah yea umbrage has said absolutely nothing non newb aid related. I agree his vote on wcd was terrible she be town.

From following along my biggest scum read has been silverspawn. His contribution has been limited to his “let’s get everyone to vote” post which he claimed was to incite drama (here’s your drama). I think it was not helpful, forcing people to get reads out is best done by directly asking question and Faust does well getting everyone’s general vote/read out benefits scum because they can see where the lynch of least resistance is.

Silver also made what I think is the scummiest post of the whole game:

As it looks right now we're headed towards lynching someone with fairly little information. I think it can't be a vet. There are only three. If we lynch one and one dies in the night there's only one. If that one is scum, that's super bad news.

This is now the second time silver is inciting the idea that we need to be more directed in our reads and votes. This post comes on the 18th which is 3 days after start and 4 days before deadline way too early to be concerned about this I think. He then goes on to give a clear direction that we shouldn’t be lynching a vet. This is absolutely crazy and wrong. Vets partake in newbie games to help out through tough day ones and provide tips about game theory/wording. They absolutely are no there to help lead the charge in finding scum nor should they be held to any safer standard than newbies.

With that vote: silverspawn

[mcmcsalot]

Just checking in to say I'm going to be a bit busy today and tomorrow and won't be able to post much.

Welcome mcmc! I posted some questions to Alina later back, would be happy if you could answer them as relevant as you can, knowing the fact that you, eh, aren't her..

This is all I could find:

alina and Europe voting for faust without a stated reason is somewhat suspicious to me, explanation please?

I believe Europe is voting faust for his nitpicky attitude, mainly showing against me above. I think this is wrong, it's a bit annoying but probably a good scumhunt- method which I assume is what is going on. 

I agree though that alinas vote is a bit out of place. What more than the "probability argument" is there for the vote, alinas? Do you have any further scumreads?

And unfortunately other than her favorite animal I was left no notes as to her reads so I do not know why she was voting for Faust or what the probability argument is.

[mcmcsalot]

Vote: Uncleeurope

Partially to save my own back, but also because setting up three of us to share the votes (by switching to Faust) means we are unlikely to lynch on Day 1.

In general we want to lynch every day, but whilst Day 1 is a day with little information which makes it hard to do a good lynching if we don't lynch anyone we run the risk of having the Mafia take out the good townies (be it because they're good at Mafia or have had to role-claim to save their skin).

This is a terrible vote. Phyphor tell me why you think uncleeurooe is scummy.

[faust]

From following along my biggest scum read has been silverspawn. His contribution has been limited to his “let’s get everyone to vote” post which he claimed was to incite drama (here’s your drama). I think it was not helpful, forcing people to get reads out is best done by directly asking question and Faust does well getting everyone’s general vote/read out benefits scum because they can see where the lynch of least resistance is.

Agreed that his way of trying to get people to vote was not particularly well thought out. I don't see why this speaks to silver's alignment.

Silver also made what I think is the scummiest post of the whole game:

As it looks right now we're headed towards lynching someone with fairly little information. I think it can't be a vet. There are only three. If we lynch one and one dies in the night there's only one. If that one is scum, that's super bad news.

This is now the second time silver is inciting the idea that we need to be more directed in our reads and votes. This post comes on the 18th which is 3 days after start and 4 days before deadline way too early to be concerned about this I think. He then goes on to give a clear direction that we shouldn’t be lynching a vet. This is absolutely crazy and wrong. Vets partake in newbie games to help out through tough day ones and provide tips about game theory/wording. They absolutely are no there to help lead the charge in finding scum nor should they be held to any safer standard than newbies.

With that vote: silverspawn

I can see a point here in silver's argument. Newbies definitely can often use help scumhunting and it is bad news if vets die early. But of course the flip side is that vets are also expectedly better scums. But anyway this is a theory disagreement and again I fail to see why it would imply that silver is scum.

[mcmcsalot]

The reason those things imply scum is town!silver is aware of the better way of generating reads from people and has not done that at all. Scum!silver is aware that getting quick votes down from everyone helps him find easy lynch targets. Town!silver is aware ruling people out for poor reasons is bad and scum!silver is aware putting fear into newbies for vets dying directly protects himself. We have had many “newbies” over the years that did not need any help from vets and I think pushing that idea only limits individual though and hurts town.

[mcmcsalot]

I could say the same to you faust about your (weaker in my opinion) umbrage case. Umbrage has almost solely given help to the newbies, which while it isn’t high quality content it is actually helpful vs silverspawns unhelpful posts.

[faust]

I would have something to say to this, but I would prefer to see silver address this himself.

[WestCoastDidds]

vote: Simon

Faust, Why Simon over UoS?

Thanks, MC for the fresh commentary. It’s helping me think through things from a new perspective. I can see why having everyone talking is better than having five people talking...

I’m also compelled by Faust’s reading and Hypercube’s explanation that is his one line responses aren’t necessarily suspicious, just not particularly helpful but not for lack of trying. And he correctly notes that none of the newbs (me, Eddie, Hyper, simon(?)) are really doing much to move the game, largely, I’d guess, because we don’t quite know how.

MC says silver could be doing better at generating game play....this is why vet’s are helpful! I wouldn’t have known that. I’ll be interested in what he has to say to that remark. Same with UoS, who was super helpful in explaining the game to me but maybe that was all.

Anyway, unvote: Hyper because I think the newbs may just be taking turns whacking each other around, and I’m not ready to commit elsewhere until I see how the silver and UoS discussion goes. And Phy....what’s up Phy? Ugh.

[faust]

vote: Simon

Faust, Why Simon over UoS?

Well noone else seemed interested in voting for UoS. We are entering a phase in the game where it is good to not have votes spread out all over the place, but consolidate on a couple of wagons. Which isn't to say that you should only vote for people who already have votes necessarily, but I have tried the UoS wagon and there is no movement there and I have nothing new to add to that case because UoS has not been posting.

[WestCoastDidds]

vote: Simon

Faust, Why Simon over UoS?

Well noone else seemed interested in voting for UoS. We are entering a phase in the game where it is good to not have votes spread out all over the place, but consolidate on a couple of wagons. Which isn't to say that you should only vote for people who already have votes necessarily, but I have tried the UoS wagon and there is no movement there and I have nothing new to add to that case because UoS has not been posting.

And Simon is scummy why?

[hypercube]

Another point against silver is his interactions with phyphor/muenstercheese, who I think we all agree have only been scummy in their brief time here.

Cheese follows silver in voting in a convoluted manner:

vote: poorly written Harry Potter Villain

vote: father-brother-continent

He then votes for cheese in this much-scrutinized post:

Very slow start here. How about this: everyone vote for someone in their next post

vote: muenstercheese

And then, after switching onto WCD, moves onto Eddie instead of actually going back to cheese.

For the record, my vote was entirely for pressure. Now is the first time that I think I have some kind of read, and it's a town read on WCD. Don't particularly want to explain why.

back to vote: uncle

At this point phyphor shows up, follows silver in voting for Eddie, and makes a very scummy post. Being concerned with self-preservation first and foremost is a pretty big red flag.

Partially to save my own back, but also because setting up three of us to share the votes (by switching to Faust) means we are unlikely to lynch on Day 1.

In general we want to lynch every day, but whilst Day 1 is a day with little information which makes it hard to do a good lynching if we don't lynch anyone we run the risk of having the Mafia take out the good townies (be it because they're good at Mafia or have had to role-claim to save their skin).

silver doesn't comment on the above other than to note that phyphor's choice of pronouns is unusual.

I think we should lynch one of these two and then strongly suspect the other if the first flips scum.

PPE 3

[faust]

I don't think that repeating a joke is the gold standard for partner tells.

[faust]

vote: Simon

Faust, Why Simon over UoS?

Well noone else seemed interested in voting for UoS. We are entering a phase in the game where it is good to not have votes spread out all over the place, but consolidate on a couple of wagons. Which isn't to say that you should only vote for people who already have votes necessarily, but I have tried the UoS wagon and there is no movement there and I have nothing new to add to that case because UoS has not been posting.

And Simon is scummy why?

This is mostly a gut read for me. I don't like the wagons he has been pushing, and I don't like how he has been pushing them. I didn't like the "I have no scumreads but WCD" from a bit earlier, it is usually harder for scum to procure scumreads than it is for town, and then he pushed for a specific group of two less active players with no reason as to why he chose those two specifically.

[mcmcsalot]

I don't think that repeating a joke is the gold standard for partner tells.

Oh faust, you and your only addressing a part of the post you find a flaw with is so you...anyway I think that point is weak but the rest of the post is strong.

I hadn’t even realized his “back to uncle” was infact not backed up by him voting for uncleeurope. He votes cheese for lurking, pressures cheese again with his vote call post, wcd and Simon both join in voting cheese to which he immediately swaps off to wcd for a “pressure vote” and then as shown goes “back to uncle”. 

[silverspawn]

Woah yea umbrage has said absolutely nothing non newb aid related. I agree his vote on wcd was terrible she be town.

From following along my biggest scum read has been silverspawn. His contribution has been limited to his “let’s get everyone to vote” post which he claimed was to incite drama (here’s your drama). I think it was not helpful, forcing people to get reads out is best done by directly asking question and Faust does well getting everyone’s general vote/read out benefits scum because they can see where the lynch of least resistance is.

I disagree. I think it was helpful. Posting begets posting. The worst thing that can happen is that no-one cares and no-one has anything to say. And that kind of thing does happen, I've seen it happen before. And it's not good for town. On the other hand, I don't recall any game where there was a minimum quantity of discussion, but it was all so devoid of content that I didn't find any alignment indicative stuff in it. If there is a concerning lack of activity, which there was, then more stuff is a very safe bet for a good thing. And people did start to post a bit immediately afterwards, so it might have even worked.

Silver also made what I think is the scummiest post of the whole game:

This is now the second time silver is inciting the idea that we need to be more directed in our reads and votes. This post comes on the 18th which is 3 days after start and 4 days before deadline way too early to be concerned about this I think. He then goes on to give a clear direction that we shouldn’t be lynching a vet. This is absolutely crazy and wrong. Vets partake in newbie games to help out through tough day ones and provide tips about game theory/wording. They absolutely are no there to help lead the charge in finding scum nor should they be held to any safer standard than newbies. [/quote]
I think it wasn't wrong at the time. If you have a game with three vets and one+ of them is scum, then if you lynch a vet day 1, what will happen is that a second vet dies n1 which leaves a bunch of people who're playing for the first time and one vet who is scum. That is really bad.

And you don't have any argument why it's not bad, you're just making the policy/moral case. It's always bad to answer a factual argument with a moral argument.

And you also conveniently left out this post:

Now that mcmc is here, the vet thing becomes less relevant.

I took the vet thing back as soon as you were here, because with 4 the same argument no longer applies. Where is the scum motivation for that?

[silverspawn]

The reason those things imply scum is town!silver is aware of the better way of generating reads from people and has not done that at all.

The whole problem I was trying to solve was that there was no material to work with.

[Uncleeurope]

Well, I am not opposed to jumping off the cube wagon either, and as previously stated, my runner-up was to Vote: Phyphor

I will just let that rest there while I reread Silver/Simon/Snow

[silverspawn]

s/s/s for short

[Uncleeurope]

The reason those things imply scum is town!silver is aware of the better way of generating reads from people and has not done that at all.

The whole problem I was trying to solve was that there was no material to work with.

Well, there is more info now, do you have more reads?

[mcmcsalot]

The reason those things imply scum is town!silver is aware of the better way of generating reads from people and has not done that at all.

The whole problem I was trying to solve was that there was no material to work with.

I totally understood that. But the way to went generating more material was done in a scummy way. You got people to make quick general votes which benefits scum to see where they can get a lynch instead of making specific singular interactions that let town figure out individual alignments.

[silverspawn]

Some, all mostly feeling based.

Town on WCD, weak town on faust. Scum somewhat on you just because if I read any of the other new players I get this urge to believe they're town and I don't get that from you.

That's all, sorry. I don't share the scumread on UoS and while mcmc has said some stuff, I can easily see that coming from either alignment.

[silverspawn]

The reason those things imply scum is town!silver is aware of the better way of generating reads from people and has not done that at all.

The whole problem I was trying to solve was that there was no material to work with.

I totally understood that. But the way to went generating more material was done in a scummy way. You got people to make quick general votes which benefits scum to see where they can get a lynch instead of making specific singular interactions that let town figure out individual alignments.

I didn't think particularly far, it was the only thing I could come up with, and I reasoned that it was better done than not done.

I don't agree that quick general votes early benefits scum in any way.

[mcmcsalot]

The quoting is hard to parse from silver so I’ll adress the point that he made separately.

I think it wasn't wrong at the time. If you have a game with three vets and one+ of them is scum, then if you lynch a vet day 1, what will happen is that a second vet dies n1 which leaves a bunch of people who're playing for the first time and one vet who is scum. That is really bad.

And you don't have any argument why it's not bad, you're just making the policy/moral case. It's always bad to answer a factual argument with a moral argument.

And you also conveniently left out this post:

Now that mcmc is here, the vet thing becomes less relevant.

I took the vet thing back as soon as you were here, because with 4 the same argument no longer applies. Where is the scum motivation for that?

In reference to the “we shouldn’t lynch vets argument”. It was bad and I’ll explain, you claimed it would be bad if we lynched a vet, then a vet died, and the remaining one was scum left with all newbies and therefor we shouldn’t lynch a vet. The issue there is that your bad scenario assumes one vet is scum and the we are lynching and having killed the other vets. Just on the surface your saying let’s not lynch from this pool in case one is scum which is absolutely bad. On top of that I think you are severely underrating new players ability to make logical reads as the game progresses that they would be swayed be a singular scum vet who could run away with he game.

It’s just a poor reasoning  all around for ruling out lynching a group of people that includes yourself hence it being scummy on top of logically flawed.

Yes I saw that you dropped it once I joined and that to be expected from either alignment because  the one lynch/one kill = one vet left part is no longer true. The scum reasoning for it is there is one more town player(me) that is now in the vet category that scum you might need to try to get lynched.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

Sorry, busy Sunday, spent most of the day driving and then impromptu dogsitting a hyperactive dog with emotional issues in the time when I expected to be catching up on mafia, super busy today, will catch up later tonight (probably around 11 PM forum time), no worries about deadline from me. Glad to see the pace picked up while I was busy.

Hi Mcmcsalot!

[faust]

I don't think that repeating a joke is the gold standard for partner tells.

Oh faust, you and your only addressing a part of the post you find a flaw with is so you...anyway I think that point is weak but the rest of the post is strong.

I hadn’t even realized his “back to uncle” was infact not backed up by him voting for uncleeurope. He votes cheese for lurking, pressures cheese again with his vote call post, wcd and Simon both join in voting cheese to which he immediately swaps off to wcd for a “pressure vote” and then as shown goes “back to uncle”.

It was the only thing in there I found that held a barest hint of partner interaction. The fact that silver voted for someone and then left is... well I don't know how that constitutes a partner interaction, and that he says "back to" when he did not go back doesn't improve that, it is just an expression that shows he thought about voting for Eddie before. You'd think that if scum!silver put a pressure vote on his partner, he'd remember.

[silverspawn]

In reference to the “we shouldn’t lynch vets argument”. It was bad and I’ll explain, you claimed it would be bad if we lynched a vet, then a vet died, and the remaining one was scum left with all newbies and therefor we shouldn’t lynch a vet. The issue there is that your bad scenario assumes one vet is scum and the we are lynching and having killed the other vets. Just on the surface your saying let’s not lynch from this pool in case one is scum which is absolutely bad. On top of that I think you are severely underrating new players ability to make logical reads as the game progresses that they would be swayed be a singular scum vet who could run away with he game.

There is no argument here. You're just saying "bad" but still not giving actual reasons. I already said that it is based on having one vet be scum, and that is not particularly unlikely. And that's all you need, after that scum NKs a vet (why wouldn't they?) and there you have it. It's not far fetched, it's not super unlikely, it's a thing that could reasonably happen. Explain me why this scenario is not plausible or admit that you're wrong.

The only actual argument here is that I underestimate the ability for new players to make logical reads. I think you almost certainly overestimate that ability. Reads in general are terrible. The game is so hard that you only need a few percentage points above random to have a decent win %. I don't see any reason to be confident that scum!faust or scum!UoS couldn't trick a bunch of new players.

[faust]

Meh, I find mcmc's case very weak, but silver's defense isn't as decisive as I would have hoped either.

[silverspawn]

btw the opposite could also happen. Maybe one vet dies the other gets NKd and town gets paranoid about the third and lynches them. Both cases aren't good.

[silverspawn]

Meh, I find mcmc's case very weak, but silver's defense isn't as decisive as I would have hoped either.

[mcmcsalot]

Meh, I find mcmc's case very weak, but silver's defense isn't as decisive as I would have hoped either.

It’s day one, like I said I think your umbrag case was valid yet weaker. I maintain that silver trying to give himself and other vets a d1 pass based on the conspiracy that a scum vet will run away with the game is less likely to be true then scum!silver thinking that argument will fly and actually create a sense that vets are important to keep around.

Again the argument is so silly because it assumes one vet is scum(totally possible) but then makes a straw argument for his benefit. You could easily lynch s newbie, have scum!silver kill one of the other vets and hen use the well you can’t lynch me because then if the other vet is scum they will run away with the game. It’s a bad argument and silver saying I need to explain why when I have repeatedly only makes me more confident I’m right.

[silverspawn]

can someone reasonable tell mcmc that it's not a bad argument? Maybe he'll listen to them.

Also – I realize that I'm incentivized to say this, but nonetheless – finding a policy or meta reason for why others shouldn't vote for you strikes me as an excellent bet for something town does far more often than scum.

[WestCoastDidds]

No position on the strength of the arg itself, but when silver made the arg we had 6 newbies (2 or 3 super brand new) and 3 vets. Since then, two of the newbs left and have been replaced by vets so vets are now in the majority. I’m assuming that his arg is now null.

More interesting now is what his arguments look like moving forward.

[faust]

No position on the strength of the arg itself, but when silver made the arg we had 6 newbies (2 or 3 super brand new) and 3 vets. Since then, two of the newbs left and have been replaced by vets so vets are now in the majority. I’m assuming that his arg is now null.

More interesting now is what his arguments look like moving forward.

Actually phyphor is also a newbie.

[silverspawn]

I’m assuming that his arg is now null.

Even though there are only four as faust as pointed out; yes I've immediately said that it's no longer valid and already reminded mcmc of that.

It's relevant to look back at the argument of mcmc thinks it makes me scummy.

[WestCoastDidds]

phyphar replaces muenstercheese, effective immediately. I can’t do a vote count until evening

Welcome Phyphar! Standard questions: Any previous mafia experience, preferred pronouns and most importantly.. are you scum?

0) LaLight can't spell - my name is phyphor
1) Yes
2) it/its
3) no

Ah, I’d assumed he was a vet because he’d played before and started spouting  “we have to do this or else no lynch” kind of stuff like he knew what was up. My bad.

[phyphor]

In general we want to lynch every day, but whilst Day 1 is a day with little information which makes it hard to do a good lynching if we don't lynch anyone we run the risk of having the Mafia take out the good townies (be it because they're good at Mafia or have had to role-claim to save their skin).

It's unclear if you mean that a no-lynch D1 is good or not. It's very much NOT good to no-lynch here. Sure, due to the little information we have it's likely we are hitting town, but the information the lynch is gathering is key to have a useful D2. Without a lynch we are doomed to repeat D1 only with fewer players left.

Maf will most likely kill out the best/towniest town players by their NK no matter what we do. Scum has not that much influence over our lynch though, which is why it's so important to use, also in D1.

What you've done here is throw doubt on what I said, where I was very clear in that in general we want to lynch every day, and then re-stated what I said they'd do as if it were new information.

2) it/its

Wait, really? I don't have a problem with that but it strikes me as so unusual that I want to make sure you aren't joking.

I don't joke about pronouns. They aren't a joking matter. And, yes, the correct pronoun for me, someone who doesn't have a gender, is "its". The pronoun "it" has been used to dehumanise people because of the implicit assumption that all people have a gender, but I assume most people here are enlightened enough to recognise that this isn't necessarily the case.

Then phy comes in with the goal of not lynching anyone while putting me at vote #3. Super aggressive way to not kill someone. His initial post just struck me as odd, and I get the feeling that would be the case regardless of who he voted for, but I am willing to admit that defensive bias might play into this. I dunno, phy just doesn't sit right with me. And this confusion is ultimately why I went with cube first.

No, phy comes in stating that I want to kill someone that isn't me. Although you and Simon appear to want to collaborate on making it seem like I said something else. Not only that you choose to misgender me so, yeah, I'm keeping my vote on you and, assuming I make it through the night, Simon tomorrow at this rate.

I agree on it (its pronoun choice...sigh) being weird out of the gate and the “it’s gonna be a no lunch” and saying zippo about it’s experience. Super strange to me, but not sure if it’s scummy yet.

I didn't say "no lynch", I merely outlined why some people argue against a D1 lynch, but that I think it's a good idea.

I was asked if I had experience, I said yes. If you want to know more then ask me. I don't believe lying as a townie (which I am, but we'd all say this) helps the town.

Also, can we stop with the passive-aggressive sighing at my pronouns, thanks?

Phypor/muenstercheese have done absolutely nothing towny in their two posts.

What, precisely, would you like me to do on D1?

Vote: Uncleeurope

Partially to save my own back, but also because setting up three of us to share the votes (by switching to Faust) means we are unlikely to lynch on Day 1.

In general we want to lynch every day, but whilst Day 1 is a day with little information which makes it hard to do a good lynching if we don't lynch anyone we run the risk of having the Mafia take out the good townies (be it because they're good at Mafia or have had to role-claim to save their skin).

This is a terrible vote. Phyphor tell me why you think uncleeurooe is scummy.

I don't know how to make it clearer. Someone switching votes to keep us at 3 seemingly to avoid lynching someone is a bad tactic If they switched for a reason then that's fine, but this didn't appear to be the case.

Another point against silver is his interactions with phyphor/muenstercheese, who I think we all agree have only been scummy in their brief time here.

I'm scummy because?

Oh, wait, you said "Being concerned with self-preservation first and foremost is a pretty big red flag."

EVen though I said that was partially the reason and provided a better reason. But nice of you, and others, to skip past what I said, right?

Actually phyphor is also a newbie.

Here, yes, but not in general (as I said before).

[phyphor]

Ah, I’d assumed [it] was a vet because [they]’d played before and started spouting  “we have to do this or else no lynch” kind of stuff like he knew what was up. My bad.

So how comes you can understand my "we should do this because not lynching is bad" but others seemed to think I was saying not to  lynch / changing my vote to avoid a lynch?

[Uncleeurope]

Do you think I am scum, or are you just trying to save yourself with this triangle voting business?

[phyphor]

Do you think I am scum, or are you just trying to save yourself with this triangle voting business?

1) we have agreed that it is good to lynch someone on D1
2) you have constantly changed who you're voting for, after we agreed that, such that we are unlikely to reach a consensus without actually giving a good reason why your'e changing your vote.

That is scummy.

You and your cohort trying to make it about me protecting myself even after I literally just explained my reasoning for the second time makes you look even scummier.

[WestCoastDidds]

1) we have agreed that it is good to lynch someone on D1
2) you have constantly changed who you're voting for, after we agreed that, such that we are unlikely to reach a consensus without actually giving a good reason why your'e changing your vote.

That is scummy.

You and your cohort trying to make it about me protecting myself even after I literally just explained my reasoning for the second time makes you look even scummier.

Phy, I apologize for sighing at your pronoun choice. I wasn’t being deliberately passive aggressive, just bent out of shape about the way my sentence sounded to me. But that is on me and stupid grammar and not your fault. Sorry.

I feel like you are annoyed with us for not coalescing on a decision about who to lynch yet, but it seems to me that we still had a fair amount of time (Wednesday at 5 am, right?) so this is out of tune with the rest of the conversation. The vets don’t seem concerned yet, and I’m following their cue. It’s also unusual considering that two new players just joined and Umbrage has been otherwise engaged.

It also seems like you are annoyed with us generally and your long post seems unnecessarily aggressive. I’ve been a work, though, so that could just be how it strikes me. You’ve offered little and now your chastising us for not asking more and some folks being confused about an early wagon or no lynch statement.

Would you care to share some of your previous experience? And do you have any reads on folks upon rereading other than trying to join a wagon that is not you?

[Uncleeurope]

Do you think I am scum, or are you just trying to save yourself with this triangle voting business?

1) we have agreed that it is good to lynch someone on D1
2) you have constantly changed who you're voting for, after we agreed that, such that we are unlikely to reach a consensus without actually giving a good reason why your'e changing your vote.

That is scummy.

You and your cohort trying to make it about me protecting myself even after I literally just explained my reasoning for the second time makes you look even scummier.

Ahkay, so you didn't think I was scummy until after you voted for me. Fair enough.

[mcmcsalot]

I would also like to know your previous experience phyphor. I think there is some meta clashing going on which is causing you to lash out at people for pretty non-alignment reasons. This is also unfortunately not very alignment indicative from you.

For example we try to be more case based here and my questioning of your vote on uncleeuro was meant to get you to elaborate on your case. I’lll be more specific in my questioning.

Why exactly do you think uncleeurope is mafia because he evened the votes out by voting for Faust. I strongly disagree that any vote at that time period was more or less likely to get a lynch through and we were not in a deadline scramble situation. So from the outside your reasoning looks flawed, and I would like you to flesh it out.

[mcmcsalot]

 Uncleeurope what do you think of my silverspawn case?

[phyphor]

I feel like you are annoyed with us for not coalescing on a decision about who to lynch yet, but it seems to me that we still had a fair amount of time (Wednesday at 5 am, right?) so this is out of tune with the rest of the conversation. The vets don’t seem concerned yet, and I’m following their cue. It’s also unusual considering that two new players just joined and Umbrage has been otherwise engaged.

It also seems like you are annoyed with us generally and your long post seems unnecessarily aggressive. I’ve been a work, though, so that could just be how it strikes me. You’ve offered little and now your chastising us for not asking more and some folks being confused about an early wagon or no lynch statement.

Would you care to share some of your previous experience? And do you have any reads on folks upon rereading other than trying to join a wagon that is not you?

I am not annoyed at the lack of coalescing, none of us even need to vote yet, after all, only that deliberately adjusting votes so that there's no clear majority, instead of just unvoting, is a bad tactic.

I'm not annoyed, I just wanted to respond to the messages that I'd not interacted with. I appreciate that annoyance can be perceived, but that wasn't my intent.

As for my experience - I've played various incarnations of Mafia/Werewolf on forums going back over a decade, have run various in-person games, and play quite a bit of One Night Ultimate Werewolf (although that's a very different style of game). I've played with various different roles from "no special roles", "just a seer", to some ridiculous games the silliest of which had about 100 people and it felt like half of them were special roles.


I am still perturbed by the fact that some people appear to have deliberately mis-stated my reasons or voting, focusing on one half of my statement.

[phyphor]

Ahkay, so you didn't think I was scummy until after you voted for me. Fair enough.

You mean where I pointed out after you changed your vote to faust that switching your vote for no good reason made you look bad?

And that you tried to claim I was voting just to save my skin?

And now you're trying to claim I said you were scummy after my vote?

Either you're scum, and you're deliberately trying to muddy the water to save yourself, or you're a townie who chooses not to read what I've posted.

[phyphor]

Why exactly do you think uncleeurope is mafia because he evened the votes out by voting for Faust. I strongly disagree that any vote at that time period was more or less likely to get a lynch through and we were not in a deadline scramble situation. So from the outside your reasoning looks flawed, and I would like you to flesh it out.

Because evening out the vote is a good mafia tactic because it does one of two things:

1) makes it less likely that anyone (especially your fellow scum) will be lynched (good for the mafia-wolves)
2) makes it so that if the voted for person does get the votes their way (whilst you're absent) there is plausible deniability when they turn out to be innocent.

If you can unvote then unvoting avoids (2).

In any case, there seems to be no good justification for Uncle to keep changing their vote.

[WestCoastDidds]

In Uncle Eddie’s defense, but there was been a whole lot of voting around by lots of /most people. I’m not sure he should be held uniquely responsible for that. And without any critical mass it’s hard to be terribly insightful.

[Uncleeurope]

Ahkay, so you didn't think I was scummy until after you voted for me. Fair enough.

You mean where I pointed out after you changed your vote to faust that switching your vote for no good reason made you look bad?

And that you tried to claim I was voting just to save my skin?

And now you're trying to claim I said you were scummy after my vote?

Either you're scum, and you're deliberately trying to muddy the water to save yourself, or you're a townie who chooses not to read what I've posted.

Ahkay, when you gave your 2 point reasoning the uneven voting I had caused didn't make the list so I missed it. I was only examining that post when determining motivation.

And I read your initial post in a misleading way, after re-reading it, I can see what your intent was, you were saying that I was trying to get nobody to lynch, I read it that you were trying to get nobody lynched. Hence me asking for clarification so many times, because it made no sense.

Sorry for the confusion.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

Catching up now, I find it frustrating that I post at my normal time Saturday, am busy Sunday and suddenly there's all this talk about me disappearing because the game sped up so I have relatively fewer posts.

Anyway, I'm glad the game picked up, anything specific anyone wants me to comment on/answer?
Otherwise I'll just post my big thoughts and possibly move my vote.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

Because evening out the vote is a good mafia tactic because it does one of two things:

1) makes it less likely that anyone (especially your fellow scum) will be lynched (good for the mafia-wolves)
2) makes it so that if the voted for person does get the votes their way (whilst you're absent) there is plausible deniability when they turn out to be innocent.

If you can unvote then unvoting avoids (2).

In any case, there seems to be no good justification for Uncle to keep changing their vote.

Can't help myself, have to theorypost:

I love to even out wagons as town, the moment when two wagons are even forces people to take a stand and make a choice, and when you look back at votes on later days once you have some flips it can provide a lot of information.

By the same token, having a vote somewhere and moving it is generally better for town than unvoting. Information and actual stances on issue that people can look back on are better for town, and around here we usually do arrive at a lynch. And that's why we announce L-1.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

As for the possibility that one of my partners resides with Cube or Phy, the obvious counter would be I am voting for cube and phy is voting for me. And while such things are not proof (votin' for friends be a strat) it is something to consider and my only defense to the claim. *Shrugs*

I find it weird that... Eddie (I know his real name, and that's really throwing me) goes out of his way to address this
and defends himself with this:

That being said, my case it that since a decent chunk of people are saying cheese has a good shot at being evil. (At least from what I can tell, a lot of people appear to be saying opinions halfwayishly.) Well, cheese voted for me. That's the best defense I got right now.

If a replacement for cheese is inevitable, I would like to wait a bit to see how his replacement responds before settling a vote in that direction.

Ima Vote: hypercube

He doesn't have a vote yes, as far as I can see, and that makes him a safer pick than phyphor.

So you don't want to lynch either of the players who are voting for you who you think are scummy?

Also, the misrep (misrepresentation) of Phyphar's intro comment on No Lynching (#198) strikes me as deliberate.

I'm happy with my vote where it is.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

I absolutely will not vote for: Faust, WestCoastDidds, or hypercube today.

I'd prefer to lynch one of Simon or Uncleeurope.

[faust]

Catching up now, I find it frustrating that I post at my normal time Saturday, am busy Sunday and suddenly there's all this talk about me disappearing because the game sped up so I have relatively fewer posts.

That is not a fair assessment. You had not posted once in nearly 48 hours. When you are close to being proddable, it is fine for us to talk about you disappearing.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

Catching up now, I find it frustrating that I post at my normal time Saturday, am busy Sunday and suddenly there's all this talk about me disappearing because the game sped up so I have relatively fewer posts.

That is not a fair assessment. You had not posted once in nearly 48 hours. When you are close to being proddable, it is fine for us to talk about you disappearing.

The comments I was referring to were before that. And I'm probably extra salty about it because of a past game where a similar thing happened.

[Uncleeurope]

So you don't want to lynch either of the players who are voting for you who you think are scummy?

Also, the misrep (misrepresentation) of Phyphar's intro comment on No Lynching (#198) strikes me as deliberate.

I'm happy with my vote where it is.

I said I didn't want to vote for them, which is different. I didn't want to be misconstrued as defensive when I had other motivations, and that doesn't even matter, because I did vote for them. Both of them, despite the possibility of being misconstrued. Like, that vote you put in your quote was for cube, one of the people in question... So I dunno what your point is there.

As for me misreading Phy's comment, why would I do that as a scum, intentionally antagonize a townie as a scum to a point where he is convinced I am evil, like... what? I am genuinely confused about that angle. If I did intentionally misrep him as scum, it has only brought more attention to scum!me and caused me to be seen as more evil by Phy (and apparently you, and who knows whoever else) with no gain to myself.

I am currently trying to put myself into a situation where I would do that play, and it's not happening for me. (This statement means nothing to you people, because it is easily fabricated, I don't really care though, gunna put it out there) But day1 just aggressively lying about crap other people say as a scum...

And why would I admit misreading him as scum...? Wouldn't I double down? I dunno, read other crap I do as scummy all you want, but that one is just weird.

It's also one of the weirdest misreads I could have done.


This turned out to be ramble-y, just trying to sort through my thoughts right now.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

Is it a thing now where we have to announce V/LA if we are worried one weekend day is going to be busy? Because if someone checks in once on a given day, then has a busy weekend day, then checks in at the normal time the next day, that's 48 hours. I'm annoyed at the concept that this is breaking the rules. Especially on a weekend.

Today was also very busy so that made it worse, but jeez

[UmbrageOfSnow]

Ima Vote: hypercube

He doesn't have a vote yes, as far as I can see, and that makes him a safer pick than phyphor.

So you don't want to lynch either of the players who are voting for you who you think are scummy?

I said I didn't want to vote for them, which is different. I didn't want to be misconstrued as defensive when I had other motivations, and that doesn't even matter, because I did vote for them. Both of them, despite the possibility of being misconstrued. Like, that vote you put in your quote was for cube, one of the people in question... So I dunno what your point is there.

I know what was said, I'm talking about motivation. You didn't want to put a vote in a place where it would make as much progress toward lynching one of the people you have a scumread on, and therefore would want to see lynched if you are Town. I think that comes from knowing they are town and actually being defensive and knowing how it looks but still thinking it's the best play.

You're pointing out that the vote I quoted is on cube, which should be obvious from the context of the quote that it was one of the people you're talking about, but that does serve to discredit my point to people not reading this closely enough.

[Uncleeurope]

Going to walk everyone through my misread, because defensiveness kicked in, here we go:

Vote: Uncleeurope

Partially to save my own back, but also because setting up three of us to share the votes (by switching to Faust) means we are unlikely to lynch on Day 1.

He gives his first reason for voting me with "Saving my own back" then follows up with "but also setting up the three of us to share the votes"

Which seems to me, because no noun/pronoun exists in part 2, that the reason for him voting me was that IT/(Phy) was "setting up the three of us to share the votes" I just subconsciously threw in his pronoun there and moved on to the next bit. (probably because the most recent person to attach the second phrase to in the sentence was "my") Which states "So we are unlikely to lynch"

The part under that goes into more detail on what he means (and rereading that bit 3 times is what finally made it click for me what he actually meant) but I just read it in the context of what the my mistake was.

Obviously the intent was that Uncleeurope was "setting up the three of us to share the votes"


I dunno, sorry again for this... This is an annoying tangent to get caught up in.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

As for me misreading Phy's comment, why would I do that as a scum, intentionally antagonize a townie as a scum to a point where he is convinced I am evil, like... what? I am genuinely confused about that angle. If I did intentionally misrep him as scum, it has only brought more attention to scum!me and caused me to be seen as more evil by Phy (and apparently you, and who knows whoever else) with no gain to myself.

I'm not saying it was about being antagonistic, it's about wanting someone to lynch and jumping on flimsy reasoning (i.e. repeating Simon's misreading.) It doesn't look like solving the game, it looks like finding excuses to have scum reads (which you need to have.)

And results mean nothing, you didn't know how it would go down. I don't think any scum ever do something they know won't work out, but that doesn't mean everything always works out perfectly.

And why would I admit misreading him as scum...? Wouldn't I double down? I dunno, read other crap I do as scummy all you want, but that one is just weird.

Why would you ever double down when caught misreading something? You're scum, you need a scumread, town!Simon (I don't think you are likely partners, so if you're scum I doubt he is too, and vice versa) makes a bizarre misreading of a post to find someone scummy for flimsy reasons, you jump on the same thing hoping it will take off, and if it doesn't and the newb defends decently the heat will fall on Simon and you can just say "sorry, should have read closer."

That's the thought process I'm proposing, and that feeling of deliberateness from you is why I'd rather vote you than Simon.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

Partially to save my own back, but also because setting up three of us to share the votes (by switching to Faust) means we are unlikely to lynch on Day 1.

In general we want to lynch every day, but whilst Day 1 is a day with little information which makes it hard to do a good lynching if we don't lynch anyone we run the risk of having the Mafia take out the good townies (be it because they're good at Mafia or have had to role-claim to save their skin).

It's unclear if you mean that a no-lynch D1 is good or not. It's very much NOT good to no-lynch here. Sure, due to the little information we have it's likely we are hitting town, but the information the lynch is gathering is key to have a useful D2. Without a lynch we are doomed to repeat D1 only with fewer players left.

Maf will most likely kill out the best/towniest town players by their NK no matter what we do. Scum has not that much influence over our lynch though, which is why it's so important to use, also in D1.

As for Phy, him piggybacking off of cheese, who was uber-scummish, doesn't help his case. I know they have the same role.

Then phy comes in with the goal of not lynching anyone while putting me at vote #3. Super aggressive way to not kill someone. His initial post just struck me as odd, and I get the feeling that would be the case regardless of who he voted for, but I am willing to admit that defensive bias might play into this. I dunno, phy just doesn't sit right with me. And this confusion is ultimately why I went with cube first.

As for the possibility that one of my partners resides with Cube or Phy, the obvious counter would be I am voting for cube and phy is voting for me. And while such things are not proof (votin' for friends be a strat) it is something to consider and my only defense to the claim. *Shrugs*

And as for not being concerned about being voted on a bunch, I have always thought denial is the best medicine for panic.

This is the interaction I'm talking about.

[faust]

Is it a thing now where we have to announce V/LA if we are worried one weekend day is going to be busy? Because if someone checks in once on a given day, then has a busy weekend day, then checks in at the normal time the next day, that's 48 hours. I'm annoyed at the concept that this is breaking the rules. Especially on a weekend.

Today was also very busy so that made it worse, but jeez

It is, very clearly, breaking the rules:

The Standard Rules:

6. Players must post once every 24 hours.

And there is a good reason to have that rule, as we need to deal with people who are not going to be active quickly in order to keep the game fun.

That said, I would be happy with a universal ruling that says weekends count as a single day for all mafia purposes.

[faust]

And why would I admit misreading him as scum...? Wouldn't I double down? I dunno, read other crap I do as scummy all you want, but that one is just weird.

Why would you ever double down when caught misreading something? You're scum, you need a scumread, town!Simon (I don't think you are likely partners, so if you're scum I doubt he is too, and vice versa) makes a bizarre misreading of a post to find someone scummy for flimsy reasons, you jump on the same thing hoping it will take off, and if it doesn't and the newb defends decently the heat will fall on Simon and you can just say "sorry, should have read closer."

That's the thought process I'm proposing, and that feeling of deliberateness from you is why I'd rather vote you than Simon.

People sure have strange ideas of what scum does. Can you point me to any game at all where scum did something comparable?

[faust]

2) it/its

Wait, really? I don't have a problem with that but it strikes me as so unusual that I want to make sure you aren't joking.

I don't joke about pronouns. They aren't a joking matter. And, yes, the correct pronoun for me, someone who doesn't have a gender, is "its". The pronoun "it" has been used to dehumanise people because of the implicit assumption that all people have a gender, but I assume most people here are enlightened enough to recognise that this isn't necessarily the case.

I agree on it (its pronoun choice...sigh) being weird out of the gate and the “it’s gonna be a no lunch” and saying zippo about it’s experience. Super strange to me, but not sure if it’s scummy yet.

Also, can we stop with the passive-aggressive sighing at my pronouns, thanks?

I very much agree that those posts were uncalled for and would suggest the people that did them apologize.

Phypor/muenstercheese have done absolutely nothing towny in their two posts.

What, precisely, would you like me to do on D1?

Here again is a proponent of the silly idea that D1s are pointless it seems. They are not. They are only if everyone is lazy and fails to do anything like you did. We have a good deal of content already. You might not necessarily find scum D1, but it is very common to have a bunch of solid townreads by the end of D1 if played correctly.

[faust]

I see WCD already apologized. Nevermind then.

[faust]

Why exactly do you think uncleeurope is mafia because he evened the votes out by voting for Faust. I strongly disagree that any vote at that time period was more or less likely to get a lynch through and we were not in a deadline scramble situation. So from the outside your reasoning looks flawed, and I would like you to flesh it out.

Because evening out the vote is a good mafia tactic because it does one of two things:

1) makes it less likely that anyone (especially your fellow scum) will be lynched (good for the mafia-wolves)
2) makes it so that if the voted for person does get the votes their way (whilst you're absent) there is plausible deniability when they turn out to be innocent.

If you can unvote then unvoting avoids (2).

1) I think any vote placed more than 48 hours before the deadline has a negligible impact on whether there will be a lynch.
2) Why would there be plausible deniability in that case?

[silverspawn]

I don't joke about pronouns. They aren't a joking matter. And, yes, the correct pronoun for me, someone who doesn't have a gender, is "its". The pronoun "it" has been used to dehumanise people because of the implicit assumption that all people have a gender, but I assume most people here are enlightened enough to recognise that this isn't necessarily the case.

Got it. I hope I wasn't coming across as passive-aggressive; I was simply actually unsure.

I'm also in the "scum usually doesn't intentionally misread people" camp. I'm a bit surprised how much UoS is entertaining the idea. His entrance makes me want to vote for him a bit more, but not really enough. As far as Eddie goes, I'm fairly confident that the defense is genuine, but I don't think that tells us about his alignment. He could be scum and genuinely defend himself. If anything the interaction makes them less likely to be partners.

So when the dust is settled, I still like Simon the best.

[faust]

I don't joke about pronouns. They aren't a joking matter. And, yes, the correct pronoun for me, someone who doesn't have a gender, is "its". The pronoun "it" has been used to dehumanise people because of the implicit assumption that all people have a gender, but I assume most people here are enlightened enough to recognise that this isn't necessarily the case.

Got it. I hope I wasn't coming across as passive-aggressive; I was simply actually unsure.

I'm also in the "scum usually doesn't intentionally misread people" camp. I'm a bit surprised how much UoS is entertaining the idea. His entrance makes me want to vote for him a bit more, but not really enough. As far as Eddie goes, I'm fairly confident that the defense is genuine, but I don't think that tells us about his alignment. He could be scum and genuinely defend himself. If anything the interaction makes them less likely to be partners.

So when the dust is settled, I still like Simon the best.

That is about what I think. Scum!Eddie would very happily take the opportunity here to defend himself against an accusation that is really untrue.

[LaLight]

Vote Count 1.8

silverspawn (2): hypercube, mcmcsalot
Uncleeurope (2):, UmbrageOfSnow, phyphor
hypercube (1): Simon Jester
Simon Jester (2): silverspawn, faust
phyphor (1): Uncleeurope
Not Voting (1): WestCoastDidds

With 9 alive it takes 5 to lynch. Day 1 ends Wednesday, August 22 at 5am forum time.

[phyphor]

Phypor/muenstercheese have done absolutely nothing towny in their two posts.

What, precisely, would you like me to do on D1?

Here again is a proponent of the silly idea that D1s are pointless it seems. They are not. They are only if everyone is lazy and fails to do anything like you did. We have a good deal of content already. You might not necessarily find scum D1, but it is very common to have a bunch of solid townreads by the end of D1 if played correctly.

I didn't say they were pointless, I asked what you wanted from me.

I'm happy to join in with whatever is desired.

[WestCoastDidds]

I just realized that I was without a vote. Sorry about that.  Taking a cue from Faust and silver, and more on feeling than any good evidence...vote: Simon
 
I’m interested in how today plays out with Phy, though.

[mcmcsalot]

So I think uncleeurope’s misread of phyphor post it stupid but 100% believable. I think umbrage is scummy for thinking he deliberately did it.

I do not like the uncleeurope votes at all.

I’m still curious what uncleeurope thinks of my silvercase.

Wcd you mentioned that you didn’t have an opinion on if silverspawns don’t lynch vets argument was scummy but figured it was now void. But I feel like you are missing the point that it was a scummy argument to begin with and just because it is no longer valid doesn’t take away from the objectively scummyness. I can’t see why people found it okay for silver to rule himself out of the lynch pool due to the fear that losing two vets on day one would allow a third scum vet to run away with the game. As I keep explaining the argument is full of logical flaws at all levels because it assumes one vet is scum and then says don’t lynch them and then says we need to look for one scum in the other 6 newbies. That’s worse then a random lynch which means ruling vets out was never ever ever a good idea.

[faust]

objectively scummyness

I don't think I can take you seriously if you insist that there are objective scumtells on D1.

[faust]

As I keep explaining the argument is full of logical flaws at all levels because it assumes one vet is scum and then says don’t lynch them and then says we need to look for one scum in the other 6 newbies. That’s worse then a random lynch which means ruling vets out was never ever ever a good idea.

I don't mean to salvage the argument, I don't think it was pretty good. But it does give a reason for not lynching vets even if one of the vets is scum. That we should not lynch among the vets if no vet is scum should be relatively obvious.

[faust]

As I keep explaining the argument is full of logical flaws at all levels because it assumes one vet is scum and then says don’t lynch them and then says we need to look for one scum in the other 6 newbies. That’s worse then a random lynch which means ruling vets out was never ever ever a good idea.

I don't mean to salvage the argument, I don't think it was prettyvery good. But it does give a reason for not lynching vets even if one of the vets is scum. That we should not lynch among the vets if no vet is scum should be relatively obvious.

EBWOP

I guess it is correct without the correction, but it sure does sound strange.

[Uncleeurope]

So I think uncleeurope’s misread of phyphor post it stupid but 100% believable.

Fair

I think umbrage is scummy for thinking he deliberately did it.

Same, but I also just think he is overanalyzing my posts as to not let a scum!me slide past him. Because we know each other outside of this context he is looking at me with a scum bias so that I don't "beat" him.

I do not like the uncleeurope votes at all.

I’m still curious what uncleeurope thinks of my silvercase.

Wcd you mentioned that you didn’t have an opinion on if silverspawns don’t lynch vets argument was scummy but figured it was now void. But I feel like you are missing the point that it was a scummy argument to begin with and just because it is no longer valid doesn’t take away from the objectively scummyness. I can’t see why people found it okay for silver to rule himself out of the lynch pool due to the fear that losing two vets on day one would allow a third scum vet to run away with the game. As I keep explaining the argument is full of logical flaws at all levels because it assumes one vet is scum and then says don’t lynch them and then says we need to look for one scum in the other 6 newbies. That’s worse then a random lynch which means ruling vets out was never ever ever a good idea.

Right, I saw you ask this awhile back and never got around to it. I definitely lean more (generally speaking) to the side that avoiding killing a player group based on player group is bad. I also think he is under-appreciating us newbies, a lot of us are only new to this forum, and who even cares, logically looking at statements isn't something that require hours of gameplay, it's not like we require vets to catch scum.

And yeah, as you said, it assumes the vets are divided between town and scum, and when we kill a vet, we lose the 50/50 (saying there are 2 vets) and kill a town-vet, despite us voting based on sus-levels. It's weird.

I understand where the guy is coming from, though, he is thinking worst possible scenarios. But understanding the logic of something doesn't mean agreeing with it, so I have a mixed opinion on Silver.

Why does my opinion specifically matter here?

[mcmcsalot]

objectively scummyness

I don't think I can take you seriously if you insist that there are objective scumtells on D1.

Your right, objective anti-town play, which ruling out a group of 3 players for what comes down to arbitrary reasons with flawed logic is. Objectively scummy it absolutely is not, I think it’s scummy
coming from silver especially since that group includes himself. But I am getting he sense others disagree.

[Simon Jester]

Woha.

Unfortunate time to be occupied it seems. The gut feelings from Faust and now also WCD are bad and you should feel.. something else, I suggest.

Still on phone so quoting will be a mess but Phy, I genuinely thought you were saying no-lynch D1 was good, if anything see it as a clarification of what you actually said. I wasn't able to read straight.

I think Mcmc:s case on silver is rather weak. I myself would agree it seems better to rule out the vets at that position we were then. I might be influenced by the fact that hyper also have a case against silver and I still don't like what I'm seeing from them. Silver seems town, sure a mcmc/hyper team creating a wagon together is farfetched and bold but it could happen.

Umbrage: Why are you ruling out Hyper? WCD jumping on my wagon rubs me also the wrong way. Perfect timing for scum to join.

Umbrages comeback hits me as scummy too somewhat, might be the frustration thing, but the case against Europe seems also rather forced. Faust, how are your gut feeling about UoS now?

Ugh, scummery everywhere it seems right now. Game has started.

Coming back for real soon, see this as a quick recap.

(Pronoun issue: I think I'm going with a general they/them for almost everyone unless the player is well known by me since before. Hope that is ok with everyone.)

[mcmcsalot]

As I keep explaining the argument is full of logical flaws at all levels because it assumes one vet is scum and then says don’t lynch them and then says we need to look for one scum in the other 6 newbies. That’s worse then a random lynch which means ruling vets out was never ever ever a good idea.

I don't mean to salvage the argument, I don't think it was pretty good. But it does give a reason for not lynching vets even if one of the vets is scum. That we should not lynch among the vets if no vet is scum should be relatively obvious.

Yes this gets at the flawed logic I keep mentioning. We should lynch a vet only if they are scummy, we should not lynch a vet only if they are not scummy. Silvers assertion that a reason to not lynch vets was if one is scum we don’t want the other two to die. It’s bad reasoning.

I also think it’s scummy that silver didn’t respond by saying, “yea the argument really doesn’t make sense” (which it doesn’t), he said “hey look I dropped the argument now that you filled in leave it alone” and “I still think it would be scary to have one scum vet left alive”. Both of which are null points.

[WestCoastDidds]

So I think uncleeurope’s misread of phyphor post it stupid but 100% believable.

Fair

I think umbrage is scummy for thinking he deliberately did it.

Same, but I also just think he is overanalyzing my posts as to not let a scum!me slide past him. Because we know each other outside of this context he is looking at me with a scum bias so that I don't "beat" him.

Hmmmm... if UoS is overanalyzing your posts not to let scum!you(eddie) slide by him, then UoS would have to be town, right?

[WestCoastDidds]

[quote author=mcmcsalot link=topic=18893.msg765632#msg765632 date=1534855060

I’m still curious what uncleeurope thinks of my silvercase.

Wcd you mentioned that you didn’t have an opinion on if silverspawns don’t lynch vets argument was scummy but figured it was now void. But I feel like you are missing the point that it was a scummy argument to begin with and just because it is no longer valid doesn’t take away from the objectively scummyness. I can’t see why people found it okay for silver to rule himself out of the lynch pool due to the fear that losing two vets on day one would allow a third scum vet to run away with the game. As I keep explaining the argument is full of logical flaws at all levels because it assumes one vet is scum and then says don’t lynch them and then says we need to look for one scum in the other 6 newbies. That’s worse then a random lynch which means ruling vets out was never ever ever a good idea.
[/quote]

Yeah, I get it. It didn’t seem that big of a deal when it happened and he wasn’t in a position, at that point, of defending himself or the other vets. It was more just chatter (to me, anyway) about how might proceed.

I see your point that in making the arg he created a circle of protection, but it didn’t seem especially strong or well defended. But I see that it was somewhat scummy or at least self-serving, but is that enough to overcome any of his other contributions?

Phy seems aggressive and not helpful.
UoS seems friendly and newb helpful, but not game helpful.

I had to go back and reread my take on Simon wherein I called him erratic and remember that he seems to be all over the place but then again, so am I. My feelings are likely being swayed by his day away and scummy reads of faust (who seems town to me).

Vote: Phyphor

[WestCoastDidds]

On my phone...apologies for typos and sub-optimal quoting skills

[silverspawn]

I feel an incrasing urge to vote mcmc for being incredibly annoying. vote: Awaclus

[silverspawn]

vote: simon

[Simon Jester]

vote: simon

Why are you voting me, again?

Awaclus?

[mcmcsalot]

Wcd I think that what Europe was saying, that it’s scummy umbrage thinks he did it deliberately but it could just be town!umbrage being extra cautious about scum!europe since they know eachother. That makes sense to me.

Simon’s most recent post does nothing to make me feel townie toward him. He doesn’t defend himself at all saying the votes are bad though the case from Faust is somewhat old (I believe it had to do with an oportunistic vote on wcd). The ugh scummery everywhere does feels like frustrated scum.

I still want to look at how the Muenstercheese/phyphor wagon rose and fell but my lynch pool for the day has narrowed quite a bit.

[mcmcsalot]

I feel an incrasing urge to vote mcmc for being incredibly annoying. vote: Awaclus

This is funny, and has to do with the meta of another player.

[silverspawn]

There is a subtle thing going on here that I want to make explicit. Mcmc seems capable of interpreting the player reaction to his case as mixed, and will probably do so. However. The thing which people are mixed about is whether the argument [about not lynching vets] was good, which is not what matters because no-one thinks that anymore now that we have 5 vets rather than 3. Mcmc claims that the argument isn't legit, doesn't make sense, which is quite different. As far as I can tell, everyone who has expressed their view on this so far has acknowledged that the argument does in fact make sense (BECAUSE IT OBVIOUSLY DOES). So no-one is agreeing with you, mcmc, and that is because you're wrong. If you could stop mentioninng it that would probably be productive.

[silverspawn]

Simon’s most recent post does nothing to make me feel townie toward him. He doesn’t defend himself at all saying the votes are bad though the case from Faust is somewhat old (I believe it had to do with an oportunistic vote on wcd). The ugh scummery everywhere does feels like frustrated scum.

Some agreement there.

[faust]

I feel an incrasing urge to vote mcmc for being incredibly annoying. vote: Awaclus

This is funny, and has to do with the meta of another player.

3/10, insufficient explanation of joke made it less funny than it could have been.

[hypercube]

I also misread phyphor's post to mean it wanted a no lynch; it wasn't exactly trivial to parse.

Thinking that saving the vets D1 could be good is a reasonable thought-- I thought it myself at one point. Then I posted it, thinking that it would be scummy if any of the vets vocally agreed with it. silver's defence has been focused mainly on whether saving the vets is, in a vacuum, a possible logical conclusion, which ignores whether having that thought and stating it is scummy or not. It also lets him deflect from the other points against him.

I am going to continue making scumreads based on how much energy people expend defending themselves vs. scumhunting. Since there are only two scum, self-preservation is significantly more important for scum than town at this point and we should exploit that difference.

PPE 10

[silverspawn]

I am going to continue making scumreads based on how much energy people expend defending themselves vs. scumhunting. Since there are only two scum, self-preservation is significantly more important for scum than town at this point and we should exploit that difference.

I don't think that's a good standard. Generally, people defending themselves is a good thing. We shouldn't discourage that.

[faust]

Unfortunate time to be occupied it seems. The gut feelings from Faust and now also WCD are bad and you should feel.. something else, I suggest.

Make me feel something else then!

Umbrage: Why are you ruling out Hyper? WCD jumping on my wagon rubs me also the wrong way. Perfect timing for scum to join.

In what sense is that perfect timing? The perfect time for scum to join a town wagon is never, or if they have to then as the very first vote. The time where scum really doesn't want to join because it looks exceedingly scummy is at L-2.

[faust]

I am going to continue making scumreads based on how much energy people expend defending themselves vs. scumhunting. Since there are only two scum, self-preservation is significantly more important for scum than town at this point and we should exploit that difference.

I don't think that's a good standard. Generally, people defending themselves is a good thing. We shouldn't discourage that.

What the pony said.

[WestCoastDidds]

What are the lynch pools looking like?

[hypercube]

I am going to continue making scumreads based on how much energy people expend defending themselves vs. scumhunting. Since there are only two scum, self-preservation is significantly more important for scum than town at this point and we should exploit that difference.

I don't think that's a good standard. Generally, people defending themselves is a good thing. We shouldn't discourage that.

OK, I should clarify. Defending yourself by explaining your thoughts and actions is good, defending yourself by deflecting instead is bad, especially early in the Day when a lynch is unlikely anyways.

[hypercube]

What are the lynch pools looking like?

I'm not voting for mcmc, WCD, or faust today. I would need some convincing to vote for UoS still.

[Simon Jester]

Simon’s most recent post does nothing to make me feel townie toward him. He doesn’t defend himself at all saying the votes are bad though the case from Faust is somewhat old (I believe it had to do with an oportunistic vote on wcd). The ugh scummery everywhere does feels like frustrated scum.

Some agreement there.

I don't defend myself because I don't see much to defend against. Faust has a gutread seemingly coming from my use of the word fairly and that I encourage players in a newbie-game, yours I haven't seen or missed and WCD just jumped on going with the vets. It's nothing, it's bad and it's wrong.

[faust]

objectively scummyness

I don't think I can take you seriously if you insist that there are objective scumtells on D1.

Your right, objective anti-town play, which ruling out a group of 3 players for what comes down to arbitrary reasons with flawed logic is. Objectively scummy it absolutely is not, I think it’s scummy
coming from silver especially since that group includes himself. But I am getting he sense others disagree.

Well I don't think that his argument was as obviously bad as you paint it to be, so even there using "objective" seems a bit much. Anyway I don't think that scum is particularly likely to propose to not lynch a group that includes themselves because the expected reaction is exactly yours, and there is not much to gain. It would be a different matter had silver already been under fire and actively trying to prevent his lynch, but that was not the situation.

[faust]

Simon’s most recent post does nothing to make me feel townie toward him. He doesn’t defend himself at all saying the votes are bad though the case from Faust is somewhat old (I believe it had to do with an oportunistic vote on wcd). The ugh scummery everywhere does feels like frustrated scum.

Some agreement there.

I don't defend myself because I don't see much to defend against. Faust has a gutread seemingly coming from my use of the word fairly and that I encourage players in a newbie-game, yours I haven't seen or missed and WCD just jumped on going with the vets. It's nothing, it's bad and it's wrong.

So why are you town then?

[Simon Jester]

Simon’s most recent post does nothing to make me feel townie toward him. He doesn’t defend himself at all saying the votes are bad though the case from Faust is somewhat old (I believe it had to do with an oportunistic vote on wcd). The ugh scummery everywhere does feels like frustrated scum.

Some agreement there.

I don't defend myself because I don't see much to defend against. Faust has a gutread seemingly coming from my use of the word fairly and that I encourage players in a newbie-game, yours I haven't seen or missed and WCD just jumped on going with the vets. It's nothing, it's bad and it's wrong.

So why are you town then?

Well, I know that activity not necessarily are alignement-indicative but given how I been trying to get this game going, being everywhere to try to stir up discussion I hope that still is a plus. My scum hunting is still primitive and maybe I'm too stuck in Lurkers are obv!scum but at least I have been trying to be pro-town. Now when the game is going I suddenly gets a wagon. Well, whelp, thanks for nothing then. Again, I'm not too worried, it'seems wrong, but I see the benefit in trying it out. Would be interested in hearing more from Silver here, as stated. He started it actually, without a reason from what I can see. Why didn't you make UoS "happen" rather than me?

[silverspawn]

I am going to continue making scumreads based on how much energy people expend defending themselves vs. scumhunting. Since there are only two scum, self-preservation is significantly more important for scum than town at this point and we should exploit that difference.

I don't think that's a good standard. Generally, people defending themselves is a good thing. We shouldn't discourage that.

OK, I should clarify. Defending yourself by explaining your thoughts and actions is good, defending yourself by deflecting instead is bad, especially early in the Day when a lynch is unlikely anyways.

No disagreement here, although Simon is right that there isn't a clear case he can defend against.

[mcmcsalot]

unvote for consolidation purposes. Will move somewhere around lunch after I read phyphor.

What are the lynch pools looking like?

Remember that generally this is better for scum than town. Check votes yourself and make notes of what reads people have, giving direct I want to lynch this person or I don’t want to lynch this person for X reason is always better than just naming a pool that gives scum an idea of where they will get he most assistance when making a case.

[WestCoastDidds]

unvote for consolidation purposes. Will move somewhere around lunch after I read phyphor.

What are the lynch pools looking like?

Remember that generally this is better for scum than town. Check votes yourself and make notes of what reads people have, giving direct I want to lynch this person or I don’t want to lynch this person for X reason is always better than just naming a pool that gives scum an idea of where they will get he most assistance when making a case.

Ah, that makes sense. Thanks for the assist! The day will end at 4 am my time (I will almost certainly be sleeping) so I’m trying to get up to speed sooner rather than later.

[mcmcsalot]

I do think we want to lynch by tonight. I will not be around by deadline after I go to sleep.

I know faust has the ability to be around but I’m not sure how many other people we have that do.

So unless people can be around it in the hours before deadline I suggest we set a soft deadline of 10:00 pm forum time (which is eastern standard time).

[phyphor]

(Pronoun issue: I think I'm going with a general they/them for almost everyone unless the player is well known by me since before. Hope that is ok with everyone.)

Epicene "they" is a catch-all pronoun and, whilst some suggest that refusing to use the correct pronoun and instead always using 'they' is bad I am not one of them.

Phy seems aggressive and not helpful.

I appreciate I appear unhelpful - but there's very little help I can provide as I am (a) new to this forum's way of playing and (b) entering the game party-way through a day and having to battle against that. I am happy to accept that not only am I appearing to be unhelpful I am not actively helping because there's very little I can actively do right now.

With regards the aggression, I appreciate and acknowledge your impression of me. I didn't believe I was being aggressive but I will endeavour (should I survive, which is currently looking likely) to moderate my tone better.

[WestCoastDidds]

I can do 10:00 game time

[hypercube]

I can be around for the deadline but agree that we should lynch tonight.

Now that I understand phyphor's first post correctly it is less scummy, but it hasn't really contributed much other than correcting people (which is fair) and theory discussion. I'll go ahead and borrow faust's question.

phyphor: why are you town?

PPE 2

[WestCoastDidds]

(Pronoun issue: I think I'm going with a general they/them for almost everyone unless the player is well known by me since before. Hope that is ok with everyone.)

Epicene "they" is a catch-all pronoun and, whilst some suggest that refusing to use the correct pronoun and instead always using 'they' is bad I am not one of them.

Phy seems aggressive and not helpful.

I appreciate I appear unhelpful - but there's very little help I can provide as I am (a) new to this forum's way of playing and (b) entering the game party-way through a day and having to battle against that. I am happy to accept that not only am I appearing to be unhelpful I am not actively helping because there's very little I can actively do right now.

With regards the aggression, I appreciate and acknowledge your impression of me. I didn't believe I was being aggressive but I will endeavour (should I survive, which is currently looking likely) to moderate my tone better.

It would be interesting and helpful, I think, if you coul read our game from the start and give us your impressions. Fresh eyes can help see new things.

[phyphor]

So I think uncleeurope’s misread of phyphor post it stupid but 100% believable.

Fair

As others have chimed in to say that my original post wasn't clear I'm more than happy to accept that the mis-read was a fail on all of our part, and I'm happy to accept that shifting votes constantly isn't necessarily a bad sign.

I'm willing to switch my vote - but I genuinely don't have a good scum read and unvoting immediately after a call for an early lynching would only make me look bad.

phyphor: why are you town?

Because that's what I was assigned to be.

It would be interesting and helpful, I think, if you coul read our game from the start and give us your impressions. Fresh eyes can help see new things.

Give me an hour or so to consider everything that's been said, and by whom.

[silverspawn]

Because that's what I was assigned to be.

This is an Awaclus answer. If people ask "why are you town" what they mean is "please give me reasons to believe you should be town".  I would think that everyone already knows this, but I well just pointed it out anyway.

[silverspawn]

I do think we want to lynch by tonight. I will not be around by deadline after I go to sleep.

I know faust has the ability to be around but I’m not sure how many other people we have that do.

So unless people can be around it in the hours before deadline I suggest we set a soft deadline of 10:00 pm forum time (which is eastern standard time).

No chance for me. I'm up for merely 5 more hours (and 20 minutes)

[mcmcsalot]

Okay phyphor/Muenster reread.

phyphor comes in with a case on europe. This has been talked about quite a bit, and has been explained to be due to europe evening up the wagons which could in turn make it more difficult to lynch and no lynch is bad. Its a correct theory that I believe was being applied at an unnecessary time. In fact looking at the votes it is literally a move that placed faust at 2 votes alongside europe at two votes. This is barely a wagon and overall really has no impact on a lynch.

The question becomes is it scum!phyphor coming up with any reason to vote europe which does then put europe at L-2 and makes him the leading wagon, or is the just poor town play. I would say because in the same post phyphor mentions that the vote is out of self preservation (when phyphor was only at one vote) it leans scummy. Scum overblows the amount of pressure they are under more often then town.

Phyphor goes on to explain to the people who thought phyphor was in favor of no lynching which is reasonable but is perturbed by the fact that some people are deliberately mis-stating phyphors reasons. Basically all of phyphor's posts have been in relation to their own post and how others viewed it. Very little actual content.

Looking at muenster cheese literally one post? It seems like all the votes for muenster were pressure votes to get them to contribute and so when phyphor replaced all the votes went away.

It is interesting that phyphor seems to have felt some of the pressure that muenster was under even though it was all gone by the time phyphor posted and that phyphor enters with a vote on europe the person that muenster's one post was jokingly voting for.

Phyphor's recent post have actually made me quite happy with a vote: phyphor

The fact that they are now going to take some time (we are running out) and consider what everyone has said makes me think it will be more responding to current posts and not actual reads or a case. Pending more information I am happy with this vote.

[faust]

I disagree with everything that mcmc is saying. Which from past experience probably means he is town.

I think all of the points you make above are easily explained by being used to a different meta.

[phyphor]

The fact that they are now going to take some time (we are running out) and consider what everyone has said makes me think it will be more responding to current posts and not actual reads or a case. Pending more information I am happy with this vote.

We have more than half a day. Even if a player is real-world going to sleep so they wake up just as the in-game day is over we still have 5 hours (e.g. silver).

Pressuring me into acting fast is scummy, especially when one person asks me to:
 

read our game from the start and give us your impressions.

is at best impolite and, at worst, throwing me to the wolves.

I'm not going to simply turn round and vote for you for that, or because you've voted for me, I'm going to stick to what I said I'd do.

[phyphor]

Oh, and add on the fact that you want me to provide:

actual content.

But not spend any time on it? Yeah, like I say, it's at best impolite.

[silverspawn]

I also disagree with everything mcmc is saying. phyphor is the player that I want to lynch the least second to myself

[faust]

I also disagree with everything mcmc is saying. phyphor is the player that I want to lynch the least second to myself

Well I wouldn't go that far.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

I'm going to be in and out for a lot of the day, but the specific 10 PM forum time soft deadline wouldn't work for me, I won't be around from about 6 PM to 10 PM probably, can be around for a few hours after that but I will be asleep at the actual deadline.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

I also disagree with everything mcmc is saying. phyphor is the player that I want to lynch the least second to myself

Where did that strong a read come from?

[UmbrageOfSnow]

I agree that this:

The fact that they are now going to take some time (we are running out) and consider what everyone has said makes me think it will be more responding to current posts and not actual reads or a case. Pending more information I am happy with this vote.

is unfair, but
@faust
@Silverspawn
Do you guys disagree with this?

Scum overblows the amount of pressure they are under more often then town.

[hypercube]

I also disagree with everything mcmc is saying. phyphor is the player that I want to lynch the least second to myself

vote: phyphor

[UmbrageOfSnow]

I also disagree with everything mcmc is saying. phyphor is the player that I want to lynch the least second to myself

vote: phyphor

Think that's L-1
Vote Count 1.UoS

phyphor (4): Uncleeurope, WCD, mcmcsalot, hypercube
Simon Jester (2): silverspawn, faust
Uncleeurope (2):, UmbrageOfSnow, phyphor
hypercube (1): Simon Jester
Not Voting (0): 
With 9 alive it takes 5 to lynch.

[phyphor]

I also disagree with everything mcmc is saying. phyphor is the player that I want to lynch the least second to myself

This makes things awkward for me because, having re-read the thread (and added a signature now, as requested), you are one of the players that made me suspicious.

FWIW we should absolutely lynch someone today, because watching how voting happens gives us information for the lynch tomorrow, but I haven't seen a good enough reason to unvote.
I'd rather I wasn't lynched, obviously, and I'm not sure why the axe has started swinging back on to me.

As I'm at L-1 I feel I should say that, as I understand it, we townfolk shouldn't have anything to worry about the mafia preventing a town role from working. Which should make it clear what I am actually saying, and why lynching me is unwise.

I am not confident in my read of the situation with UncleEurope, but the person I have the most suspicion of is probably due to my biases even though I try to be objective about things so I'm not going to over-react just because.

I'm also likely to be up for several hours, if this helps, so can discuss further as necessary.

[hypercube]

As I'm at L-1 I feel I should say that, as I understand it, we townfolk shouldn't have anything to worry about the mafia preventing a town role from working. Which should make it clear what I am actually saying, and why lynching me is unwise.

Are you claiming something? I honestly can't parse the first sentence.

[phyphor]

Are you claiming something? I honestly can't parse the first sentence.

Yes.

[phyphor]

• If you have a power role, be very cautious about claiming it. If you're about to be lynched (and I mean intent to hammer, not a couple votes and feeling generally depressed and fatalistic), if you have a guilty result on someone as cop or tracker, if scum just claimed your role or your role makes their claim impossible, if someone you have an innocent result on is about to be lynched, or when it's the last day and it's Lynch or Lose (LyLo), then claim. Not before.
  

I am saying that, as I understand it, it's not possible for there to be a Mafia Roleblocker.

You should be able to deduce there are only two ways for me to know this to be true (if it is, indeed, true), and that I am, therefore, making a very particular claim to be a specific town role.

[hypercube]

Are you claiming something? I honestly can't parse the first sentence.

Yes.

I think it's pro-town to just say such things in plain English. unvote: phyphor for the moment being however.

[phyphor]

I am saying, specifically, that we cannot be in an A setup. The only role that is only in setups B and C is Tracker.

If I am lynched then, when I flip town, you will know that I'm telling the truth and the other town role knows they can be effective every night.

Alternatively, I hope that by claiming this it will at least provide a respite. I know that only a Mafia would counter-claim and would definitely be lynched tomorrow for it.

In theory, were I lying, either a Town tracker, or Town Neopolitan would be able to know that for definite - which is 4/9 of the available set-ups (just under half, but still bad odds to make a bad claim).

[hypercube]

OK, I'm not sure how to weigh my fairly strong scumread on you against the potential utility of a Tracker. It'd be nice if the vets could weigh in at this point.

[phyphor]

OK, I'm not sure how to weigh my fairly strong scumread on you against the potential utility of a Tracker. It'd be nice if the vets could weigh in at this point.

If I am scum then lynching me is always good.

If I were vanilla town then lynching me is bad, but could provide information with regards how people vote..

I am claiming a town role, which ups the ante, but we are getting into the last stages of the day so we should vote and a bad vote still tells the town information. Yes, a tracker can provide useful information but that assumes I wouldn't be killed by the mafia anyway.

So, don't worry about the information a tracker can provide so much as when I flip town who looks suspicious and why?

[silverspawn]

I agree that this:

The fact that they are now going to take some time (we are running out) and consider what everyone has said makes me think it will be more responding to current posts and not actual reads or a case. Pending more information I am happy with this vote.

is unfair, but
@faust
@Silverspawn
Do you guys disagree with this?

Scum overblows the amount of pressure they are under more often then town.

No, I'd sign below that.

[silverspawn]

This makes things awkward for me because, having re-read the thread (and added a signature now, as requested), you are one of the players that made me suspicious.

Eh, so what? That doesn't make you scummier.

Ok so we're not going to lynch a player who claimed, so how about we go back to simon?

[UmbrageOfSnow]

Worth noting, I do think having a power role also makes people more likely to overblow the amount of pressure they are under.

[WestCoastDidds]

OK, I'm not sure how to weigh my fairly strong scumread on you against the potential utility of a Tracker. It'd be nice if the vets could weigh in at this point.

Yes, please!

Also, with the return of UoS, is there any new read on him? It seems like there were a few posts about being miffed that we thought he had disappeared, and then some more posts where he is asking questions, but not a lot going on otherwise.

[WestCoastDidds]

Ok so we're not going to lynch a player who claimed, so how about we go back to simon?

Why Simon? Why not UoS?

[phyphor]

This makes things awkward for me because, having re-read the thread (and added a signature now, as requested), you are one of the players that made me suspicious.

Eh, so what? That doesn't make you scummier.

Because voting for someone who is standing up for me can very easily lead to you being a townie and me pushing for the death of an innocent, or you being scum and me being accused of throwing you under the bus to save myself.

It's never a good look!

Ok so we're not going to lynch a player who claimed, so how about we go back to simon?

What's the justification for Simon? I didn't see any wagoning for it to be "going back to".

[silverspawn]

OK, I'm not sure how to weigh my fairly strong scumread on you against the potential utility of a Tracker. It'd be nice if the vets could weigh in at this point.

Easy; toss out your read and take the utility of a tracker.

Two reasons for this. First, reads in general are terrible, as I've said earlier. I know this is different in RL mafia, but forum mafia is just intrinsically so hard that games are balanced around town doing a bit better than random. So even a confident read shouldn't move your estimate by very much, and this is day 1, so your read probably shouldn't be confident.

Second, with player claiming a power role in an open setup like this it's just strictly better to let it live. Tomorrow, either it's dead or not. If it is, then it was clearly better not to lynch it. If it's not, then tomorrow it claims a result and we can make the same decision with more information, so it was better not to lynch it. There's only a tiny advantage to lynching a mafia player earlier rather than later.

[Simon Jester]

This makes things awkward for me because, having re-read the thread (and added a signature now, as requested), you are one of the players that made me suspicious.

Eh, so what? That doesn't make you scummier.

Ok so we're not going to lynch a player who claimed, so how about we go back to simon?

How about you explaining why you are on me in the first place?

Extremely odd claim, I'm inclined to not believe it, but it's too risky lynching a claimed player. It'll have to wait.

I'm also wondering about why you have such a strong town-read on Phyphor. You are acting very suspicious lately.

I could do UoS. In fact, Hyper doesn't seem to happening. vote: UoS

[silverspawn]

What's the justification for Simon?

Their posts, particularly under pressure, rub me the wrong way. I know that is an incredibly convincing case. No, don't thank me.

[silverspawn]

Ok I'll do a targeted reread and see if I can put it into words. But it's very possible that I can't because it's so much based on tone.

[faust]

• If you have a power role, be very cautious about claiming it. If you're about to be lynched (and I mean intent to hammer, not a couple votes and feeling generally depressed and fatalistic), if you have a guilty result on someone as cop or tracker, if scum just claimed your role or your role makes their claim impossible, if someone you have an innocent result on is about to be lynched, or when it's the last day and it's Lynch or Lose (LyLo), then claim. Not before.
  

I am saying that, as I understand it, it's not possible for there to be a Mafia Roleblocker.

The way I see it, there is exactly one way, and that is that you are a Tracker, so if you are, please cut the cryptic nonsense and claim it, and if you aren't, explain yourself.

vote: phyphor

L-1[/list]

[faust]

In theory, were I lying, either a Town tracker, or Town Neopolitan would be able to know that for definite - which is 4/9 of the available set-ups (just under half, but still bad odds to make a bad claim).

A1 has a Neapolitan and a Roleblocker.

[Uncleeurope]

Simon has definitely had a lot of aggression cast towards him, and seems to at least be the verbal successor to your death.

I am unsure, but am definitely going to unvote, at least for the time being.

This is a really sad turn of events to have to deal with.


Simon, Snow, and Silver are the ones I am squinting at currently: The "S-Crowd"

With a preference for Snow/Silver, but seeing as the crowd is more interested in Simon, and he is third on the list, I guess it's fine since someone has to die.

I also am interested if we get a counter-claim for a power role and Phyphor is still a baddie making a play.

[silverspawn]

Hm, yes, faust is right.

By the way, this is useful to know: if you want to do a targeted reread of someone, click on "All" next to the page numbers, press CTRL+F, and put in some unique string that only appears in the desired player's  description. For simon that's "Posts: 62". Then by pressing enter you jump from post to post.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

The gut feelings from Faust and now also WCD are bad and you should feel.. something else, I suggest.
...
Umbrages comeback hits me as scummy too somewhat, might be the frustration thing, but the case against Europe seems also rather forced. Faust, how are your gut feeling about UoS now?

I don't like all this "why not UoS" stuff. Not the suspicion itself but the way people (especially Simon and faust) have been subtly building up that narrative over time.

I think faust is town, and he actually had reads on Simon, it wasn't all gut. Happy to 1v1 Simon if that's where we're going with this.

[faust]

OK, I'm not sure how to weigh my fairly strong scumread on you against the potential utility of a Tracker. It'd be nice if the vets could weigh in at this point.

Here is a probability argument: For scum in phyphor's situation, it is probably good to fakeclaim. So say scum!phyphor fakeclaims 50% of the time. If phyphor is town, then the probability of it actually having a PR is just under 2/7 (or 2/6 if you yourself have no PR, or 1/6 if you do). So actually phyphor claiming increases the chance of it being scum.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

In theory, were I lying, either a Town tracker, or Town Neopolitan would be able to know that for definite - which is 4/9 of the available set-ups (just under half, but still bad odds to make a bad claim).

A1 has a Neapolitan and a Roleblocker.

It means that Neapolitan never occurs with Tracker, so it's a valid counterclaim.

[faust]

Notably: If scum has a Roleblocker, then no town PR would be able to counter a Tracker claim. That seems terribly convenient.

[faust]

In theory, were I lying, either a Town tracker, or Town Neopolitan would be able to know that for definite - which is 4/9 of the available set-ups (just under half, but still bad odds to make a bad claim).

A1 has a Neapolitan and a Roleblocker.

It means that Neapolitan never occurs with Tracker, so it's a valid counterclaim.

Ah, right... sorry. Still it makes zero sense for phyphor to not claim its role.

[Uncleeurope]

Simon has definitely had a lot of aggression cast towards him, and seems to at least be the verbal successor to your death.

I am unsure, but am definitely going to unvote, at least for the time being.

This is a really sad turn of events to have to deal with.


Simon, Snow, and Silver are the ones I am squinting at currently: The "S-Crowd"

With a preference for Snow/Silver, but seeing as the crowd is more interested in Simon, and he is third on the list, I guess it's fine since someone has to die.

I also am interested if we get a counter-claim for a power role and Phyphor is still a baddie making a play.

This was in response to Phyphor, I just happened to get ninja'd by a few people and failed to quote it like a good forum user.


Also, faust with that aggression towards a role claim intrigues me.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

Although if we're in the C column, which scum would know, 2/3 setups (both the ones without Tracker) only have 1 town PR, and both of those occur with Tracker in setups in the B column, so it's one of the safer fakeclaims.

I still don't think we should lynch without a counterclaim. If we're in B column phyphor is probably the NK, if C column Doctor should flip a coin whether to protect phyphor or most likely other NK target. So in some of those cases scum still kills Tracker!phyphor unprotected too.

We're better off waiting even considering the possibility of a fake claim.

[silverspawn]

OK, I'm not sure how to weigh my fairly strong scumread on you against the potential utility of a Tracker. It'd be nice if the vets could weigh in at this point.

Here is a probability argument: For scum in phyphor's situation, it is probably good to fakeclaim. So say scum!phyphor fakeclaims 50% of the time. If phyphor is town, then the probability of it actually having a PR is just under 2/7 (or 2/6 if you yourself have no PR, or 1/6 if you do). So actually phyphor claiming increases the chance of it being scum.

The weak part about that is that scum!phyphor might not necessarily want to claim.

But I think I agree with you. However, that does not mean it's a good idea to lynch it, when we can wait another day and lynch it then.

[faust]

In theory, were I lying, either a Town tracker, or Town Neopolitan would be able to know that for definite - which is 4/9 of the available set-ups (just under half, but still bad odds to make a bad claim).

So I get now that this is talking about fakeclaims. It is totally disingenius because of course scum knows that there are only 3 possible setups.

[faust]

OK, I'm not sure how to weigh my fairly strong scumread on you against the potential utility of a Tracker. It'd be nice if the vets could weigh in at this point.

Here is a probability argument: For scum in phyphor's situation, it is probably good to fakeclaim. So say scum!phyphor fakeclaims 50% of the time. If phyphor is town, then the probability of it actually having a PR is just under 2/7 (or 2/6 if you yourself have no PR, or 1/6 if you do). So actually phyphor claiming increases the chance of it being scum.

The weak part about that is that scum!phyphor might not necessarily want to claim.

It definitely fits its playstyle though.

I will go to bed. Will be back before deadline, but not for a while.

[silverspawn]

Ok so I can't explain it but Simon is totally scum. More confident than pre-reread.

[silverspawn]

There is just this sense of simon wanting to play a 'proper' game that I don't get from anyone else and that is what scum does. All of his posts read as "I am being helpful!" "I am being pro-town!" "I am being careless!" "I am being reasonable!"

[UmbrageOfSnow]

Simon, Snow, and Silver are the ones I am squinting at currently: The "S-Crowd"

With a preference for Snow/Silver, but seeing as the crowd is more interested in Simon, and he is third on the list, I guess it's fine since someone has to die.

I also am interested if we get a counter-claim for a power role and Phyphor is still a baddie making a play.

We should have t-shirts made.

Any reasoning on silver other than mcmcsalot's case?

[silverspawn]

Ok simon, do you have finished games? You said something about that in your signup post.

[phyphor]

The way I see it, there is exactly one way, and that is that you are a Tracker, so if you are, please cut the cryptic nonsense and claim it, and if you aren't, explain yourself.

I did.

vote: faust

In theory, were I lying, either a Town tracker, or Town Neopolitan would be able to know that for definite - which is 4/9 of the available set-ups (just under half, but still bad odds to make a bad claim).

A1 has a Neapolitan and a Roleblocker.

Yes, but there is no Neopolitan and Tracker so if there's a Neopolitan they can trivially counter-claim me. The point is that I am assuming that it will only take a scum jumping on the bandwagon to lynch me so I wanted to provide as much useful information as I can.

It means that Neapolitan never occurs with Tracker, so it's a valid counterclaim.

I'm glad at least one person here can read!

Here is a probability argument: For scum in phyphor's situation, it is probably good to fakeclaim. So say scum!phyphor fakeclaims 50% of the time. If phyphor is town, then the probability of it actually having a PR is just under 2/7 (or 2/6 if you yourself have no PR, or 1/6 if you do). So actually phyphor claiming increases the chance of it being scum.

If I were fake claiming then in 4 out of 9 set-ups there is a trivial way to counter-claim. The fact that you want to pull up nonsensical statistics to try to prove your point instead of looking at real facts would appear to say a lot more about you than me.

Ah, right... sorry. Still it makes zero sense for phyphor to not claim its role.

Which I did. I was seeing whether it was worth actually outright stating it because I'm used to towns that are able to deduce from more subtle information.

[phyphor]

It definitely fits its playstyle though.

I will go to bed. Will be back before deadline, but not for a while.

Appear just to damn me, and then run?

Seems a little off to me.

[Simon Jester]

Rereading UoS:

Why would you ever double down when caught misreading something? You're scum, you need a scumread, town!Simon (I don't think you are likely partners, so if you're scum I doubt he is too, and vice versa) makes a bizarre misreading of a post to find someone scummy for flimsy reasons, you jump on the same thing hoping it will take off, and if it doesn't and the newb defends decently the heat will fall on Simon and you can just say "sorry, should have read closer."

This is rather rubbish. Phyphors sentence was cryptic and they seem to continue wanting to be pretty enigmatig in their style. That's fine but to accuse someone being scum for misunderstanding there is really farfetched.

I absolutely will not vote for: Faust, WestCoastDidds, or hypercube today.

I don't like unexplained lynchpools like this. Faust I certainly can understand, but the other two? Ok, thanks for telling us, but it doesn't add much information at all.

Other than that it's the frustration thing over that we wondered about their absence, which naturally could be genuine, but combine that with the state of the game we were then it just seems as a convenient way to excusing not helping the game move further at a time when we were a bit stuck. Earlier than this there has mostly been theorytalk from them and... Now I feel it's more a scum!UoS using that tool than a helpful town!UoS.

Phyphor seems to be a new Awaclus, Yey, but also I reeeaaaallyyy want to vote there but claimed is claimed..

[LaLight]

Vote Count 1.9

Uncleeurope (1): UmbrageOfSnow
Simon Jester (1): silverspawn
phyphor (3):, WestCoastDidds, mcmcsalot, faust
UmbrageOfSnow (1): Simon Jester
faust (1): phyphor
Not Voting (2): hypercube, Uncleeurope

With 9 alive it takes 5 to lynch. Day 1 ends Wednesday, August 22 at 5am forum time. That's in 14,5 hours.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

vote: faust

We aren't lynching faust today, this is a useless vote.

Which I did. I was seeing whether it was worth actually outright stating it because I'm used to towns that are able to deduce from more subtle information.

The point is that it's more pro-town to just claim, expecting everyone debating voting you to immediately deduce everything is dangerous for the town win condition, meanwhile there is a 100% chance scum will figure that out over the night. You have everything to lose and nothing to gain by being cagey about this stuff.

Regarding the statistics, scum don't have 9 possible setups to look at, they have 3. That's part of what people are getting at.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

Other than that it's the frustration thing over that we wondered about their absence, which naturally could be genuine, but combine that with the state of the game we were then it just seems as a convenient way to excusing not helping the game move further at a time when we were a bit stuck.

1) The game wasn't stuck, over that period it moved the fastest it has moved all Day until just now.
2) Are you seriously accusing me of lying about real life to avoid posting?

[UmbrageOfSnow]

Also that's a list of townreads, not an unexplained lynch pool. Why do you dislike catchup posts mentioning townreads?

[Simon Jester]

There is just this sense of simon wanting to play a 'proper' game that I don't get from anyone else and that is what scum does. All of his posts read as "I am being helpful!" "I am being pro-town!" "I am being careless!" "I am being reasonable!"

Sigh. You are probably right about that, but I assure you my "tone issue" has nothing to do with me being scum. Playing mafia is rather scary to me and right now I have to be this "proper" guy to not feel that I'm a sucky jackass or something. (Ironic when I was most myself this game towards WCD I got scumread as heck from Faust, but that is indeed what this game is about, isn't it?) Don't misread that as scummyness, that is a huge mistake.

And yeah, under the name Hockeysemlan, and I was indeed a sucky jackass those games. At least I felt as such.

[silverspawn]

Can you link to the games? There's a non-zero chance that it'll change my mind.

[silverspawn]

@phyphor: that's probably a meta thing. We don't do cryptic claims here. You should state clearly what you claim.

I'm not sure why this is the norm, but probably because it's generally going to be at least as hard for town to connect the dots as it is for scum.

[silverspawn]

And yes, the vote on faust is indeed useless.

[Simon Jester]

Other than that it's the frustration thing over that we wondered about their absence, which naturally could be genuine, but combine that with the state of the game we were then it just seems as a convenient way to excusing not helping the game move further at a time when we were a bit stuck.

1) The game wasn't stuck, over that period it moved the fastest it has moved all Day until just now.
2) Are you seriously accusing me of lying about real life to avoid posting?

1) Yes it was. When we called for you many players were absent, Alina disappeared, I might be misremembering but I at least I felt that we were going nowhere waitig for people to show up.

2) Not lying. Using it as an excuse to not contribute to the game. I don't see why it would be odd for scum to lie about IRL if that would be the case by the way. They are lying about almost everything else, don't they?

Also that's a list of townreads, not an unexplained lynch pool. Why do you dislike catchup posts mentioning townreads?

Ehm. If "I don't want to lynch these but can lynch these" (the part of you wanting to lynch me and Eddie is excluded) isn't a lynchpool I simply don't know what it is..

[UmbrageOfSnow]

So in your opinion I should be building cases explaining my townreads on players who don't currently have substantial wagons when I catch up on a game?

[UmbrageOfSnow]

2) Not lying. Using it as an excuse to not contribute to the game. I don't see why it would be odd for scum to lie about IRL if that would be the case by the way. They are lying about almost everything else, don't they?

This is low to the point of being offensive. I would consider this cheating.

[phyphor]

So I get now that this is talking about fakeclaims. It is totally disingenius because of course scum knows that there are only 3 possible setups.

Let's pretend I'm Mafia. I clearly could not be the Rolecop (as claiming Tracker would make it trivial to counter-claim) but either of the others still has a 1/3 chance of being counter-claimed. That's the odds you need to consider not whatever nonsense you wanted to make up about how likely I might be to claim in a desperate situation.

This is rather rubbish. Phyphors sentence was cryptic and they seem to continue wanting to be pretty enigmatig in their style. That's fine but to accuse someone being scum for misunderstanding there is really farfetched.

I started off cryptic with the hope that I could get a read from people but when that hope was quickly dashed I opened up very quickly.

The point is that it's more pro-town to just claim, expecting everyone debating voting you to immediately deduce everything is dangerous for the town win condition, meanwhile there is a 100% chance scum will figure that out over the night. You have everything to lose and nothing to gain by being cagey about this stuff.

Not "debate me" but I have the chance to deduce at least something from the response. There would be some time in twilight for me to say who I was before dying, if necessary.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

A lot of my initial suspicion of Simon was just sheeping faust, whose reasoning I liked in these posts.

I still think it was a logical inconstency. Simon argued that two lurkers should have one scum among them because the others are all townie, and then it turned out he doesn't actually townread everyone else, so it doesn't make much sense to narrow it down to those two, it was arbitrary and he could have included you, but didn't. Which strikes me as manipulative because had he ended up with "1 of those 3 is probably scum", it would be harder to justify a vote on them.

I don't like this at all. Simon scumread WCD, and then she makes a single (admittedly decent) post and he drops the whole thing and even apologizes (!) for making a case. This is a buddying tactic and I would expect town who actually scumreads WCD to be a bit more persistent in their reads.

This is mostly a gut read for me. I don't like the wagons he has been pushing, and I don't like how he has been pushing them. I didn't like the "I have no scumreads but WCD" from a bit earlier, it is usually harder for scum to procure scumreads than it is for town, and then he pushed for a specific group of two less active players with no reason as to why he chose those two specifically.

Since then, there's also the buildup to the vote for me and sort of asking around for permission and trying to see if faust or others will start it for him.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

Let's pretend I'm Mafia. I clearly could not be the Rolecop (as claiming Tracker would make it trivial to counter-claim) but either of the others still has a 1/3 chance of being counter-claimed. That's the odds you need to consider not whatever nonsense you wanted to make up about how likely I might be to claim in a desperate situation.

And Mafia should take a 33% to go 1-for-1 with a PR 66% to avoid being lynched every day of the week, that's why faust was suspecting you.

There would be some time in twilight for me to say who I was before dying, if necessary.

That's the problem though, it doesn't do anyone any good for you to claim Tracker after the hammer vote has been cast. No one cares at that point, it can't change anything. What you have to lose is getting hammered by town who were in that moment confused and suspicious of your claim, or scum who could pretend to be so. What you have to gain is a chance to actually get a night action off.

But let's drop this for now and talk about it post-game if you still disagree.

[Uncleeurope]

Simon, Snow, and Silver are the ones I am squinting at currently: The "S-Crowd"

With a preference for Snow/Silver, but seeing as the crowd is more interested in Simon, and he is third on the list, I guess it's fine since someone has to die.

I also am interested if we get a counter-claim for a power role and Phyphor is still a baddie making a play.

We should have t-shirts made.

Any reasoning on silver other than mcmcsalot's case?

No reasoning came immediately, had to do a reread.

Turns out my suspicion was carry-over from his VOTE FOR EVERYONE post and that all he has actually said this game is "Simon is bad"

Like, over half his posts are just that.

So, that combined with mcmc's reasoning.

Yeah, we can ignore him today.


If nobody is interested in killin' off Snow, I am more than happy to kill off Simon.

[WestCoastDidds]

Simon- I appreciated your kindness, and you are correct in noting that this is a tough crown for a new-newby. I'm glad that was the authentic you and I'm sorry that you got crap for it. Seemed neither scummy nor non-scummy to me and definitely did not lead to buddying, as was the the articulated aggravation about it.

That said, the s/s/s read seems increasingly solid to me. Especially if Phy is off the table.

vote: Umbrage of Snow

[silverspawn]

You also wouldn't necessarily mind being counter-claimed, at least not if the PR to counterclaim you is the cop.

[silverspawn]

Hm, so UoS? He is a total coinflip as far as I am concerned. Not great.

[mcmcsalot]

Hm, so UoS? He is a total coinflip as far as I am concerned. Not great.

I’m with you on this one so much so that I would much rather lynch phyphor than uos even with the claim. It is by far the safest of claims.

[WestCoastDidds]

Hm, so UoS? He is a total coinflip as far as I am concerned. Not great.

I know, right? I had a town!Simon feel earlier when he was really trying to stir things up and get the game going, but I am also smart enough to know that I am easily fooled and have zero experience at this. So, I am willing to be convinced.

Snow shadow was helpful to me, and then jumped on my wagon and it was all rather odd, but I see him doing less to move us forward than Simon now. For the last however long he has been in the weeds with Phy arguing about claims and counterclaims, and he should just claim which he did many posts before in response to the direct question and all that seems somewhat pointless. But I don't want to leave my vote on Phy, so path of least objection.

[Uncleeurope]

K,

Vote: Simon

[Simon Jester]

2) Not lying. Using it as an excuse to not contribute to the game. I don't see why it would be odd for scum to lie about IRL if that would be the case by the way. They are lying about almost everything else, don't they?

This is low to the point of being offensive. I would consider this cheating.

Huh, really? I would expect everything and anything from scum and I think it's fair as long as it's following the rules. Again, I'm not saying your lying just that it was convenient for you and that scum!you could have faked the frustration. Didn't mean to offend in any way.

So in your opinion I should be building cases explaining my townreads on players who don't currently have substantial wagons when I catch up on a game?

Did you explain them later? Missed that when rereading in that case. Just don't like lynchpools or non-substantial readlists in general, they are a scumtrait.

Since then, there's also the buildup to the vote for me and sort of asking around for permission and trying to see if faust or others will start it for him.

Others? I believe I asked Faust that stated he scumread me and you and he was voting me. Sure I want him to move away if possible. 

[UmbrageOfSnow]

Simon- I appreciated your kindness, and you are correct in noting that this is a tough crown for a new-newby. I'm glad that was the authentic you and I'm sorry that you got crap for it. Seemed neither scummy nor non-scummy to me and definitely did not lead to buddying, as was the the articulated aggravation about it.

The issue with it isn't the being nice, it's the going from a case on you you (after that initial wagon had just dissolved) then saying this:

Yes, you have yet to give me a reason to see you as town. It's not your questions as is, it's more of a tone where you seem.. a tad too worried and self-aware. And you are already accusing me of tunneling you when I'm basically trying out my first real scumread this game. Doesn't really help your case.

Second scum is probably among muenstercheese/hypercube, a bit sad if both of them is gone.

And then as soon as you made your big effort post, saying this:

Great post, and I agree with much of your observations. Sorry about the "erratic" case against you, the vibe I observed in your earlier posts isn't here at all so I will leave it for now, I think. First hunches are what they are.

i.e. "You're too worried and self-aware and haven't done enough to seem town"
<big effort post>
"Oh, sorry for having ever suspected you!"

It was a good post, but was it that good?

Also, if being nice to you has contributed to a town read, that means it was effective.

[phyphor]

You also wouldn't necessarily mind being counter-claimed, at least not if the PR to counterclaim you is the cop.

There is no way for the cop to counter-claim me, only if the cop and the other PR did so which would be eminently foolish.

Even if I were scum then it wouldn't be worth both PRs making themselves a target just to kill one Mafia.

(And I'm under no illusions that telling you that, or making this statement itself, lends any credibility to my claim one way or the other.)

[Simon Jester]

If nobody is interested in killin' off Snow, I am more than happy to kill off Simon.

Ow, man, rough. Why "more than happy"?

[silverspawn]

Can you link to the games? There's a non-zero chance that it'll change my mind.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

UoS disappearance is odd, yeah. If he wasn't experienced/vet I would almost assume he got scared of Faust and others scumreading him, but nah. Probably V/LA.

Umbrages comeback hits me as scummy too somewhat, might be the frustration thing, but the case against Europe seems also rather forced. Faust, how are your gut feeling about UoS now?

Why didn't you make UoS "happen" rather than me?

[Simon Jester]

Can you link to the games? There's a non-zero chance that it'll change my mind.

Found one at least.

http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=12917.0

Not proud, I should say. It was way over my head.

[Simon Jester]

UoS disappearance is odd, yeah. If he wasn't experienced/vet I would almost assume he got scared of Faust and others scumreading him, but nah. Probably V/LA.

Umbrages comeback hits me as scummy too somewhat, might be the frustration thing, but the case against Europe seems also rather forced. Faust, how are your gut feeling about UoS now?

Why didn't you make UoS "happen" rather than me?

Yeah? The last one is trying silver to explain his read on me and indeed I did se your disappearance as odd already when it happened. It wasn't near enough voting for you, though. 

[WestCoastDidds]

Also, if being nice to you has contributed to a town read, that means it was effective.

In my first decent post I said I read him as town, which was when he was still scumreading me.  So the kindness didn’t lead to the townishness, for me anyway.

[phyphor]

And yes, the vote on faust is indeed useless.

He reads as scum to me and he has as many votes as anyone who isn't me.

[silverspawn]

That doesn't convince me unfortunately, I'm not getting the same vibe from you as I do here.

[silverspawn]

And yes, the vote on faust is indeed useless.

He reads as scum to me and he has as many votes as anyone who isn't me.

Yeah but it's faust. You don't lynch no faust out of nowhere a few hours before the deadline. Also no-one has even expressed desire to lynch him yet.

[phyphor]

And yes, the vote on faust is indeed useless.

He reads as scum to me and he hasd as many votes as anyone who isn't me once I voted.

fixed in post!

[Simon Jester]

...

Also, if being nice to you has contributed to a town read, that means it was effective.

This annoys me a bit more than it should probably. Almost nothing other than RVS had happened by then and I made a case based almost on tone (which really irks being hit by, I should know) and when I saw a change I wanted to state that I saw it. First hunch, she wasn't obv!town for me because of it or anything. Also I got called "erratic" and in my language the similar term is borderline offensive. I really thought she was affected in a bad way.

And "Oh, sorry for having ever suspected you!" is not a tiny exaggeration for "I will leave it by now, I think." Jeez, don't get short of scumpaint there, will ya?

I will never encourage anyone again, I swear..

[UmbrageOfSnow]

Okay, well I have to go in not too long

Vote: Simon

That's L-2

[WestCoastDidds]

...

Also, if being nice to you has contributed to a town read, that means it was effective.

This annoys me a bit more than it should probably. Almost nothing other than RVS had happened by then and I made a case based almost on tone (which really irks being hit by, I should know) and when I saw a change I wanted to state that I saw it. First hunch, she wasn't obv!town for me because of it or anything. Also I got called "erratic" and in my language the similar term is borderline offensive. I really thought she was affected in a bad way.

And "Oh, sorry for having ever suspected you!" is not a tiny exaggeration for "I will leave it by now, I think." Jeez, don't get short of scumpaint there, will ya?

I will never encourage anyone again, I swear..

It seems suspect up me that UoS is focusing on this to the extent he has...it’s keeping all kinds of s/s/s attention off him. Remember, he was being squirrelly about me then, too.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

It seems suspect up me that UoS is focusing on this to the extent he has...it’s keeping all kinds of s/s/s attention off him. Remember, he was being squirrelly about me then, too.

If you mean the buddying thing, check your confirmation bias. Go reread what I've said today (protip: name: umbrage). Even that post isn't very much about that, Simon is making it about that.

If you just mean that I'm focussing on Simon, well I'd much rather lynch Simon than Silver or myself, which shouldn't surprise anyone.

[phyphor]

If you just mean that I'm focussing on Simon, well I'd much rather lynch Simon than Silver or myself, which shouldn't surprise anyone.

You trust silver that much?

[UmbrageOfSnow]

If you just mean that I'm focussing on Simon, well I'd much rather lynch Simon than Silver or myself, which shouldn't surprise anyone.

You trust silver that much?

Not all that much, but I mean it shouldn't be surprising because Simon was my 2nd top scumread when I caught up to the game and I haven't liked his posting on me since. And I don't care for mcmcsalot's case on Silver.

[silverspawn]

going to sleep now. I hope to wake up to a lynched scum!

[hypercube]

I'm going to trust the people I'm townreading here and vote: phyphor.

[Uncleeurope]

I'm going to trust the people I'm townreading here and vote: phyphor.

Yuck

[hypercube]

Vote Count 1.cube

Simon Jester (3): silverspawn, Uncleeurope, UmbrageOfSnow
phyphor (3):, mcmcsalot, faust, hypercube
UmbrageOfSnow (2): WestCoastDidds, Simon Jester
faust (1): phyphor

[Simon Jester]

I'm going to trust the people I'm townreading here and vote: phyphor.

Yuck

'

Hyper is so townie, yeah, hyper can't be scum. No, no, no.

Albeit this is just odd more than scummy at this point, but still. Woah.

[phyphor]

I'm going to trust the people I'm townreading here and vote: phyphor.

Spicy!

Foolish, but hella spicy!

Clearly I should L-1 Simon Jester in order to save my skin, but I don't particularly feel compelled to dance to someone else's tune.

So, what next?

[hypercube]

I'm going to trust the people I'm townreading here and vote: phyphor.

Yuck

'

Hyper is so townie, yeah, hyper can't be scum. No, no, no.

Albeit this is just odd more than scummy at this point, but still. Woah.

Well, the point of having townreads is that you can place value on their opinions when you have difficult decisions to make. I think it's completely plausible that phyphor recognized it was in trouble and spent its time coming up with a fake claim rather than fake reads. However, to make a decision the probability of phyphor being scum has to be weighed against the risk of lynching a PR. Having my top scumread (silver) suggest I not vote phyphor and my town reads vote for it definitely carries weight when evaluating the probabilities.

PPE 1

[phyphor]

Well, the point of having townreads is that you can place value on their opinions when you have difficult decisions to make. I think it's completely plausible that phyphor recognized it was in trouble and spent its time coming up with a fake claim rather than fake reads. However, to make a decision the probability of phyphor being scum has to be weighed against the risk of lynching a PR. Having my top scumread (silver) suggest I not vote phyphor and my town reads vote for it definitely carries weight when evaluating the probabilities.

So the belief is that (a) I hunted out a fake claim, and (b) got lucky with that claim?

[hypercube]

I'm going to trust the people I'm townreading here and vote: phyphor.

Spicy!

Foolish, but hella spicy!

Clearly I should L-1 Simon Jester in order to save my skin, but I don't particularly feel compelled to dance to someone else's tune.

So, what next?

If you know you're town (a town PR at that), why wouldn't you vote for someone who might be scum to save yourself?

[hypercube]

Well, the point of having townreads is that you can place value on their opinions when you have difficult decisions to make. I think it's completely plausible that phyphor recognized it was in trouble and spent its time coming up with a fake claim rather than fake reads. However, to make a decision the probability of phyphor being scum has to be weighed against the risk of lynching a PR. Having my top scumread (silver) suggest I not vote phyphor and my town reads vote for it definitely carries weight when evaluating the probabilities.

So the belief is that (a) I hunted out a fake claim, and (b) got lucky with that claim?

It's not that lucky if you're scum that knows we're in a C setup.

[phyphor]

So the belief is that (a) I hunted out a fake claim, and (b) got lucky with that claim?

Oh, this is smart!
This implies you believe I'm mafia.
So do you believe I'm the Rolecop and the tracker or neopolitan are choosing to be quiet?
Or do you believe that I'm the Roleblocker or the Goon?

What my uncontested claim of Tracker implies is we have a Cop, Jailkeeper or Doctor  - if there is any town PR that is any other role, or is the Tracker, they would know that I was lying (as would any Tracker).

Which would make it most likely I'd be a Goon, hoping that 2/3 of the time the Jailkeeper or Cop would believe that my claim is valid.

IF YOU ARE THE DOCTOR DO NOT, UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCE, REVEAL YOURSELF TO SAVE ME!

Doctor >>> Tracker.

[phyphor]

If you know you're town (a town PR at that), why wouldn't you vote for someone who might be scum to save yourself?

Because there's a chance we can still turn this around and take out actual scum, like people doctor fishing.

[phyphor]

It's not that lucky if you're scum that knows we're in a C setup.

So when I flip town you'll, what, claim that those vets you got a good town read on are to blame?

I have made an uncontested claim and you still want to go after me? Because you believe that I'm a plain goon, and tried to get lucky?

The sensible claim for a Mafia is Doctor - every other role is paired with them so it would take two people claiming or to have the doctor reveal themselves. But, sure, I played the odds and gambled on Tracker, because that's sensible!

[WestCoastDidds]

Phy, why are you voting (still) for Faust?

[phyphor]

Phy, why are you voting (still) for Faust?

Because I got a scum read off hem and I was hoping not to lynch someone innocent as directed by the Mafia.

But I'll have to L-1 vote: Simon Jester

[hypercube]

So when I flip town you'll, what, claim that those vets you got a good town read on are to blame?

If you flip town then of course I'll share the blame, I've been pushing your lynch for a while now. Your series of posts since I voted for you again have made me more confident in that read.

I have made an uncontested claim and you still want to go after me? Because you believe that I'm a plain goon, and tried to get lucky?

The sensible claim for a Mafia is Doctor - every other role is paired with them so it would take two people claiming or to have the doctor reveal themselves. But, sure, I played the odds and gambled on Tracker, because that's sensible!

If you are scum, and you estimated your chance of getting lynched as being > 1/3 (I would have estimated it as such), then it's a smart play to make the fake claim just based on the probability of a counterclaim. A Tracker fake claim could go uncontested for the whole game (if we're in C1 or C2), so I don't think it's obvious that Doctor is the only sensible claim.

[phyphor]

If you are scum, and you estimated your chance of getting lynched as being > 1/3 (I would have estimated it as such), then it's a smart play to make the fake claim just based on the probability of a counterclaim. A Tracker fake claim could go uncontested for the whole game (if we're in C1 or C2), so I don't think it's obvious that Doctor is the only sensible claim.

Again, either Doctor goes uncontested or the Mafia have their best first night target.

But apparently claiming Tracker is better?

You're a goshdarned fool! Although you're either scum or being a willing patsy and setting yourself up for a D2 lynching.

[WestCoastDidds]

Vote Count 1.cube

Simon Jester (3): silverspawn, Uncleeurope, UmbrageOfSnow
phyphor (3):, mcmcsalot, faust, hypercube
UmbrageOfSnow (2): WestCoastDidds, Simon Jester
faust (1): phyphor

Okay so, phyphor switched to Simon, so it’s
Simon (4): silver, uncleeddie, UoS, phyphor
Phyphor (3): mcmc, Faust, hyper

And then Simon and I on UoS.

The other two s/s/s folks are on Simon and that feels slimy. But folks seemed to have moved away from “phyphor claimed so we better not” and no one has chimed in to verify or bolster his claim.

If I vote Phy, he’d be at L-1 and Simon would obvi not vote for himself.
But I’m uncertain I want to hammer Simon with the set of folks he has voting for him.

I’ll think a bit more while I brush my teeth, so if anyone is up and has any insight.....let me know. Mcmc, hyper, uncle, UoS...thoughts? I’ll need to go to bed in the next hour.

[Uncleeurope]

Yeah, part of me wondered if phy and Simon were a duo when phy refused to vote Simon, but now that is less likely due to phy’s vote. Regardless, I still wonder if we will have one of those scum voting for scum games...

As for who to kill...?

I obviously am partial to Simon, currently, at least between the two baskets we have going. Too risky to kill phy now when all we have to do is wait a day and see what happens. He last thing we want to do is give the scum a free kill on a power role. (And someone that the scum know is a power role now too, they do t have to worry about this doubt)

Kill Simon, I would say.

That’s all I got, probably not the best person to respond, I am just as unhappy/confused  with this situation as you are.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

The other two s/s/s folks are on Simon and that feels slimy.

Why? Like I don't really care what your answer is, but ask yourself why you feel that way? And if you want to answer in thread that'd be great but just think about your own thought process.

Also, were you expecting someone to verify phyphor's claim?

Generally I'd rather lynch anyone that uncounterclaimed Tracker on Day 1, if it's alive at LYLO (the end of the game) everyone will want to claim anyway, and while that still won't eliminate all possibilities of a fake claim, it will be when we have a lot more information. If a Cop and Doctor both claim, for example, that would mean someone is lying, but neither would want to claim right now. I know you were sick of all the theory talk but you should probably take a look at some of it again, since that's what faust (and presumably mcmcsalot?)'s votes rest on.

And I think Silverspawn and I disagree with those votes from a theoretical perspective. i.e. regardless of alignment, personally I'm very surprised to see mcmcsalot still voting there.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

I still wonder if we will have one of those scum voting for scum games...

I'm out of touch with site meta, but this at least used to be pretty common (honestly too common IMO). Definitely don't rule it out.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

Also, that phyhor/hyper argument is super confusing and I don't know what to make of it other than they should both take a look at the setup again.

But I can't see why either of their weird opinions have a scum motivation (or a town motivation), I think they are just both confused.

[WestCoastDidds]

Generally I'd rather lynch anyone that uncounterclaimed Tracker on Day 1, if it's alive at LYLO (the end of the game) everyone will want to claim anyway, and while that still won't eliminate all possibilities of a fake claim, it will be when we have a lot more information. If a Cop and Doctor both claim, for example, that would mean someone is lying, but neither would want to claim right now. I know you were sick of all the theory talk but you should probably take a look at some of it again, since that's what faust (and presumably mcmcsalot?)'s votes rest on.

Can you explain that first line to me about uncounterclaimed Tracker and then everyone wanting to claim.

I’m not sick of the theory, I’m just having a hard time figuring it out.

[Uncleeurope]

Hm, so UoS? He is a total coinflip as far as I am concerned. Not great.

I’m with you on this one so much so that I would much rather lynch phyphor than uos even with the claim. It is by far the safest of claims.

Pretty sure this is Mcmc’s only post since the phy-drop

It is almost a shrug off of phy vs Simon, with him instead preferring to focus on Snow vs phy, where he chooses a favorite.

Seems like a roundabout way to stick to voting phy while making it look legit. I mean, I don’t think I would call Mcmc scum, but it is a weird post...

[UmbrageOfSnow]

Okay, so we have 9 possible setups (lists of roles) but we know exactly what the possibilities are, right? (LaLight's 2nd post.)

So if everyone claims their roles, we could figure out what setup we were in. (It is worth noting that a couple of the setups only have 1 town power role, those in the C column, which is the biggest reason for concern about a fake claim, because scum know there is 2/3 chance of having one of those setups if they have 2 goons.

But the other reason everyone claiming is bad right now is that it lets scum target the power roles for their night kill. If we have a cop, we want the cop to investigate and not get killed, if we have a doctor, we want the doctor to protect someone and not get killed. If there are a cop and doctor in the setup, we know there can't be cop+doctor+tracker, so someone is lying (and Phy would look awfully suspicious). But Doctor+Tracker and Cop+Tracker are both possible, so neither of those roles would want to claim now.

Whenever someone dies we see their role, and then on the last or second-to-last day, generally we'll all want to claim roles to sort this stuff out.

I (and I'm pretty sure Silverspawn) argue that it is always better to wait until that point before worrying about whether this is a fake claim or not and give the benefit of the doubt until then. After all, if it's a real claim, scum are also incentivized to try to kill Phy because it could catch them performing the night kill.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

@Phy

By the way, scum can choose which performs the kill, so you may want to not track your top scumread but someone else instead if you don't get lynched.

wifom wifom wifom...

[phyphor]

Also, were you expecting someone to verify phyphor's claim?

Nobody can verify my claim but I assume you mean counter it.

My hesitancy to vote Simon was simply because I feel I'm being pressured into it by Mafia, but when it came to losing a town PR then I had to take the necessary step.

If Simon is innocent then Mafia can get away with sowing discord and having no D1 lynch, or we have to plead which means when one of them switches they've got plausible deniability.

I'm out of touch with site meta, but this at least used to be pretty common (honestly too common IMO). Definitely don't rule it out.

From experience elsewhere scum throwing another scum under the bus is unusual on Day 1, but can happen.

Also, that phyhor/hyper argument is super confusing and I don't know what to make of it other than they should both take a look at the setup again.

But I can't see why either of their weird opinions have a scum motivation (or a town motivation), I think they are just both confused.

I believe hyper's suggestion is:
If we assume I'm not the tracker than claiming tracker opens me up to a counter-claim by several roles, although if I were Mafia I'd be able to manage which those could be. If I am a Mafia then claiming a "safe" role is a good way to save myself from lynching.

If I'm Mafia then it's plausible that both the Mafia are simple goons, meaning that we're in C and as two of the three ways we could be in C would have only a single town PR if we're in C1 or C2 then the sole town PR couldn't unmask the lie.

If we were in C3 then, assuming I'm not really the tracker, real the tracker would be able to unmask me.

The claim, therefore, is that I'm mafia and my claim is a ruse and we're in C1 or C2.

My counter-proposal is that if we ran the same logic above then claiming Doctor would be better because it would force the doctor to reveal themselves, making them a juicy target.

[Simon Jester]

Also, that phyhor/hyper argument is super confusing and I don't know what to make of it other than they should both take a look at the setup again.

But I can't see why either of their weird opinions have a scum motivation (or a town motivation), I think they are just both confused.

I could see a scumnarrative from Hyper voting there trying to actually doctor- fishing. He would know that Phyphons claim is accurate and can now rule out cop from the C - section.

I mean I can't find any other sensible reasoning from either alignement really and to me this strikes me after the argument as something as the most scummiest move all game. That's the best lynch for today, really.

Ugh. L1, right. But could we please consider lynching Hyper? I can't see anything townie from him in the argument with Phyphon.

I would by the way assume Faust and Mcmc are just stuck on the wagon being afk and would be ready to hammer when they return, which I hope they are willing to wait with until closer to deadline.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

I can be up a couple more hours, I'll check in every half hour or so, but there is no way I should be up for deadline.

[phyphor]

Ugh. L1, right. But could we please consider lynching Hyper? I can't see anything townie from him in the argument with [phyphor].

I still get a read off faust, obviously (because going after me then vanishing isn't polite), but I agree that Hyper's insistence to keep at me is baffling. Apparently "claimed good town reads" are better than "an actual PR claim", but c'est la vie.

[WestCoastDidds]

Okay....intent to hammer Simon

[WestCoastDidds]

Vote: Simon

[Simon Jester]

Are you voting 10 minutes after you're claiming you could just vote..

[Simon Jester]

Are you voting 10 minutes after you're claiming you could just vote..

*intent to hammer, but yeah, I was about to claim.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

*intent to hammer, but yeah, I was about to claim.

Well, what were you going to claim?

Also, @WCD, generally wait to see if the person has a claim. Given the way this day went down it seems pretty unlikely Simon was also a PR and hadn't claimed yet, but it's certainly possible.

[phyphor]

*intent to hammer, but yeah, I was about to claim.

Damn.

Also, @WCD, generally wait to see if the person has a claim. Given the way this day went down it seems pretty unlikely Simon was also a PR and hadn't claimed yet, but it's certainly possible.

It's plausible they're the doctor. Although this is likely to mean after tonight it's going to be a purely vanilla game.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

If Simon is a PR he should have claimed earlier so we weren't this close to deadline with half the players asleep when sent scrambling for a third option.

Way he said that makes me pretty sure he's scum though.

[Simon Jester]

If Simon is a PR he should have claimed earlier so we weren't this close to deadline with half the players asleep when sent scrambling for a third option.

Way he said that makes me pretty sure he's scum though.

Genuinly confused about "forum time", thought there was several hours left yet.

Nevermind, signing off.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

Genuinly confused about "forum time", thought there was several hours left yet.

"Forum time" is the time that posts on this forum say it is. Which is U.S. East Coast.

[faust]

Doctor >>> Tracker.

No. But noone should reveal themselves anyway.

[faust]

Vote: Simon

Ah man. Oh well. I'm not too sad to see Simon lynched.

[faust]

Still phyphor's handling is pretty scummy. The cryptic claim trying to leave itself an out should a counterclaim come, the pointless vote for me and refusal to do anything useful. Well, we shall see. At least for scum!phyphor it will be nontrivial to produce fake resuls, there is a chance to catch it like that.

[faust]

Simon saying "I was about to claim" and then leaving without claiming at least gives me hope that he's scum.

[faust]

Genuinly confused about "forum time", thought there was several hours left yet.

"Forum time" is the time that posts on this forum say it is. Which is U.S. East Coast.

The posts on this forum say it is whatever time you set your profile to.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

Genuinly confused about "forum time", thought there was several hours left yet.

"Forum time" is the time that posts on this forum say it is. Which is U.S. East Coast.

The posts on this forum say it is whatever time you set your profile to.

Oh, well then I really don't get why I'm like the only one who prefers to say "US EDT" or whatever then.

[faust]

Genuinly confused about "forum time", thought there was several hours left yet.

"Forum time" is the time that posts on this forum say it is. Which is U.S. East Coast.

The posts on this forum say it is whatever time you set your profile to.

Oh, well then I really don't get why I'm like the only one who prefers to say "US EDT" or whatever then.

It's just a standard that evolved over time somehow. It took me an embarraingly long time to switch to [ time ] tags as a mod, which are better in every way, so I am not faulting people for still using forum time.

[LaLight]

Thread locked.

[LaLight]

Vote Count 1.final

Simon Jester (5): silverspawn, Uncleeurope, UmbrageOfSnow, phyphor, WestCoastDidds
phyphor (3): mcmcsalot, faust, hypercube
UmbrageOfSnow (1): Simon Jester

With 9 alive it took 5 to lynch.

[LaLight]

Simon Jester was lynched. He was a Mafia Goon and his favorite animal was a Horse.

Night 1 starts now and ends in 48 hours, Friday, August 24 at 1:30 am FT.

[LaLight]

No one does at night, so here's a fennec fox for you.



Day 2 starts now!

Vote Count 2.0

Not Voting (8): faust, silverspawn, mcmcsalot, hypercube, Uncleeurope, UmbrageOfSnow, phyphor, WestCoastDidds

With 8 alive it takes 5 to lynch. Day 2 starts now and ends Friday, August 31 at 1.30am forum time.

[faust]

This is going so smoothly...

I assume we want to massclaim now.

[phyphor]

I had a whole load of text written up to defend myself from the verbal attack from faust but then I watched faust last night and they didn't target anybody.

Either faust is mafia and decided to have a quiet night to get me lynched (which seems like an odd play) or someone else is mafia and their attempted kill was impeded.

I'll not bother to go quite as aggressive in response to faust's post because I saw what I saw and going after someone that I didn't see target anyone is not a sensible use of my time.

I will, however, respond to:

The cryptic claim trying to leave itself an out should a counterclaim come,

Really? What's the out? What other possible role could I have claimed and made the same statement I did? There isn't one.

Yes, it was cryptic. Yes, I shouldn't have been cryptic (as others have pointed out). I accept that was a fault of mine, but for you to claim it as scummy is a reach.

the pointless vote for me

You acted scummy, and we might have had the opportunity to discuss whether it was sufficient to damn you. I needed to move my vote. I wanted to make it clear what I thought of your actions. Both of these make it far from "pointless" to switch my vote to you, especially bearing in mind I was active at the time and, once those of us that were still here had a discussion, was able to change my vote.

and refusal to do anything useful.

Except I was able to stop myself being lynched by the town, as a PR, and L-1 someone (who turned out to bee mafia).

Well, we shall see. At least for scum!phyphor it will be nontrivial to produce fake resuls, there is a chance to catch it like that.

If you (or anyone else) genuinely believes that I'd risk a 1/3 chance of being caught out then it's not a stretch to assume I wouldn't risk making up a fake result were I lying.

There is no way I can prove myself without letting myself be lynched which, obviously, I'm against.

I do, however, bear a grudge so I'm going to kick off with this and then go sleep.

vote: hypercube

That said, I want to apologise unreservedly. I spoke rashly previously, and against the civility pledge, and what I should've said is:

You're acting like a goshdarned fool!

Or said that your behaviour was "goshdarned foolish". Calling anyone a name, even as jovially as I did, even within the context of the game, is both impolite and improper.

Again, I apologise for my acions and will endeavour to behave with more civility.

[Uncleeurope]

We are meant to think there be a doc, eh? Or I guess Jailers work the same way, essentially. I am curious to see where this goes.

So they protected Phy and Phy was attacked, or Phy is a sneaky maf who didn't target anyone, and is maintaining the lies (I want this to be true more than it actually is, it is an incredibly easy to counter this line of gameplay)

Or what if there really is a doc who protected Phy the same day he chose to not attack and then the doctor can confirm Phy and then we go mad while witch hunting a ghost!

That'd be cool. Sorry, getting carried away. It's probably not Phy (but I want it to be)

Also, can I just say that I almost just want to die in order to have that snazzy art of my fav animal? Because that was pretty sweet.


Oh, in terms of actual people to vote for, Cubey and McMcNugget are concerning, the latter's inability to react to the Phy situation at all is just weird, and cubey just yolo-voted on a town role claim.

Ima stick with a Vote: Mcmcsalot until this gets going a bit.

[faust]

So phyphor, can you confirm that your result was actually received and you were not blocked (e.g. by a Jailkeeper)?

[phyphor]

So phyphor, can you confirm that your result was actually received and you were not blocked (e.g. by a Jailkeeper)?

I don't know how I'd tell the difference in response but, as far as I can ell, I observed that faust didn't target anyone.

[faust]

Going through the options:

1) The remaining Mafia is a Goon. They know that (assuming phyphor is telling the truth) there is a Doctor in the game. So... it makes no sense for them to be targeting phy, right?

2) The remaining Mafia is a Rolecop. If phy is telling the truth, mafia does not know which of Cop/JK is in the game.it makes sense for them to kill off phy I think. But then for phy not to die would mean that its action was blocked.

In all other cases, phyphor is scum. There is alos a nonzero chance that mafia skipped the kill in order to provoke a phyphor mislynch, because they thought that that is the best option they have for eliminating that threat.

[faust]

So phyphor, can you confirm that your result was actually received and you were not blocked (e.g. by a Jailkeeper)?

I don't know how I'd tell the difference in response but, as far as I can ell, I observed that faust didn't target anyone.

You can ask the mod for clarification in your QT.

[faust]

Or what if there really is a doc who protected Phy the same day he chose to not attack and then the doctor can confirm Phy and then we go mad while witch hunting a ghost!

The thing is, if there is a Doctor and phyphor is lying, then there would be another power role out there who could confirm that phy is lying. The same is not true for Jailkeeper (JK), since those can exist as the only power role in the game.

[phyphor]

The thing is, if there is a Doctor and phyphor is lying, then there would be another power role out there who could confirm that phy is lying. The same is not true for Jailkeeper (JK), since those can exist as the only power role in the game.

So I believe the options are:

I'm a Tracker, there's a Doctor who saved me from a Goon
I'm a Tracker, there's a Jailkeeper who jailed the Mafia Rolecop
I'm a Tracker, there's a Jailkeeper who jailed me and a failure looks like no result. (this seems unlikely from what I know but I'm awaiting clarification).
I'm a Tracker, and the Mafia chose not to take any actions (seems unlikely).
I'm a Goon, didn't kill anyone (by choice), and the Town Cop hasn't had a chance to speak up yet.
I'm a Goon, didn't kill anyone (because I'm in jail), and the Jailkeeper hasn't had a chance to speak up yet.


I assume at this point the Jailkeeper should claim (and if there are two we lynch one today, and the other tomorrow).

If there's a Doctor then it makes it harder to plan a simple win.

If I'm telling the truth then we have 2 known townies (assuming that he mafia would've tried to kill me), and the Doctor needs to stay hidden, and tonight I track the next person. Arguably we would be better off forcing a non-vote, having another night, and the mafia would have to find the doctor before I find the mafia.

If we go down that route then we'd have D3 with at worst 7 of us, 3 of which would be determined to be town.

[phyphor]

So I believe the options are:

I'm a Tracker, there's a Doctor who saved me from a Goon
I'm a Tracker, there's a Jailkeeper who jailed the Mafia Rolecop
I'm a Tracker, there's a Jailkeeper who jailed me and a failure looks like no result. (this seems unlikely from what I know but I'm awaiting clarification).
I'm a Tracker, and the Mafia chose not to take any actions (seems unlikely).
I'm a Goon, didn't kill anyone (by choice), and the Town Cop hasn't had a chance to speak up yet.
I'm a Goon, didn't kill anyone (because I'm in jail), and the Jailkeeper hasn't had a chance to speak up yet.

After confirming I can state authoritatively faust didn't take action and I wasn't in Jail.

vote: unvote

[faust]

That is good I think. If a Jailkeeper or a Cop exists, they should claim now.

[faust]

@LaLight: What are the rules for a situation where we repeatedly no-lynch, no-kill?

[faust]

Also to phyphor (and the other newbies here): If you want to force the day to end without a lynch, the thing to do is

Vote: No Lynch

(bolded) I'm going to wait with that until we have heard from everyone.

[phyphor]

If you want to force the day to end without a lynch

I wanted to remove my vote until I had a chance to think things through.

I did a 20 hour real world day just as the last day ended and I've just done a similar amount now. So my brain isn't quite able to follow all the tracks, especially as I try to consider what other people know or can deduce.

So, yes, sleep is good.

[silverspawn]

Woo! This is exciting. We might actually have the first game ever with zero town deaths if we catch the last scum today.

[silverspawn]

Also, if phy is scum, then faust is town. If phy is town, then faust is town unless he deliberately didn't target anyone. So that's the only way for faust to be scum. He's an almost-IC.

@LaLight: What are the rules for a situation where we repeatedly no-lynch, no-kill?

Are you thinking we could play follow-the-tracker aswell?

[faust]

Also, if phy is scum, then faust is town. If phy is town, then faust is town unless he deliberately didn't target anyone. So that's the only way for faust to be scum. He's an almost-IC.

@LaLight: What are the rules for a situation where we repeatedly no-lynch, no-kill?

Are you thinking we could play follow-the-tracker aswell?

Well, if noone claims Cop or JK, then phyphor is an IC (which stands for Innocent Child, actually a role in mafia games with the power that the mod confirms at the start of the game that they are town, but often used to indicate a player who cannot possibly be scum). Then Follow-the-IC-Tracker seems pretty damn good, even if it might cost us a perfect win.

[faust]

On the other hand, how likely is it really that Simon's partner was part of the wagon? We would probably still be fine just lynching out of mcmc/hyper.

[faust]

In the meantime, I will reread Simon and look for partner-tells.

Let's hunt lurkers: vote: Westcoastdidds

There were a bunch of lurkers at the time. This kind of makes me think Simon's partner was lurkish. Then continues to find WCD scummy. I think that is not the partner.

Hm. This game is hard to get a good feeling of, but I can't help to get a new!scum- vibe from Westcoast. Let's see what some real pressure might do: vote: Westcoast

More pushing. I think this was L-2? Okay, I was already thinking that WCD was an unlikely partner. Now even more.

I think WCD, alina and silver are town.

Scummy people are UoS and Simon. I could maybe be convinced against lynching the vet, though Simon doesn't really count as a newbie in my book.

Odd people to have a scumvibe on, especially together. UoS feel very townie so far and it's not by their activity as such, it just feel too jittery to be from scum. Your read on me I have no clue on what you are basing it on. I feel I haven't really been engaged in the game yet to be anything than null for most players..

I don't think scum reacts like this had I actually pinned down the scum team here. So I guess UoS can be town.

Second scum is probably among muenstercheese/hypercube, a bit sad if both of them is gone.

Relevant and making hyper a tiny bit townier.

Reads!

I think I already have done that to some extent to be honest, but sure:

UoS activity I read as town. You have a point that his post is not too game- oriented, but I would almost feel that a happy scum!UoS would focus more on being pro-town in that way in his first posts. Could be swayed here I guess, but right now I lean townie on him.

You are your usual pro-town you and it's easy to townread you by default. I have seen nothing that defer to that this game.

Silver is the same, a useful and good vet. Has done nothing to make the game weird or crazy, even though he said he tried to do that with the votething I think his suggestion was good and moved the game forward somewhat.
 
I liked Alinas posts, there is a confidence there that comes off as townie to me. Would need some more activity to have a more confident read though. Why do you read them as town? 

Uncleeurope is perfectly and utterly null, if anyone can weigh in on them I would appreciate it.

hypercube and muenstercheese left and yeah, wouldn't blow my mind if there is one scum there.

Of those, the alina read comes off as the weirdest to me. I don't think a partner would read as complete null, so slight town on Uncle.

I wonder a bit about your view of Alina. Do you think it is townie to not move the game forward or are you just giving her sort of a newbie-pass in general? I'm eager to hear her responses to what have happened recently, right now she sinks a little bit into the scummier areas, more because of vagueness than anything else.

UoS disappearance is odd, yeah. If he wasn't experienced/vet I would almost assume he got scared of Faust and others scumreading him, but nah. Probably V/LA.

And finally, pleased to not be alone with my read on hypercube. That's where I want to go now. vote: Hypercube

Poking of alina reads happens regularly. Hm. Also more reason for hyper to not be a partner.

This makes things awkward for me because, having re-read the thread (and added a signature now, as requested), you are one of the players that made me suspicious.

Eh, so what? That doesn't make you scummier.

Ok so we're not going to lynch a player who claimed, so how about we go back to simon?

How about you explaining why you are on me in the first place?

Extremely odd claim, I'm inclined to not believe it, but it's too risky lynching a claimed player. It'll have to wait.

I'm also wondering about why you have such a strong town-read on Phyphor. You are acting very suspicious lately.

I could do UoS. In fact, Hyper doesn't seem to happening. vote: UoS

More reasons for UoS to be town. And the shading on silver... I am not sure about that one actually.

Simon tries to switch people over to voting for hyper in the end there. I mean that won't do anything right? I think it could well be a thing trying to make a partner look townier.

[faust]

So if I were to pick someone on wagon as scum, I think it would be silver. But really mcmc is probably our best candidate.

[Uncleeurope]

So if I were to pick someone on wagon as scum, I think it would be silver. But really mcmc is probably our best candidate.

Mcmc is definitely my fav, ignoring Simon as a vote option on his last post is reeeeeaaally scummy.

And silver was anti-Simon all game, which seems townish.

[LaLight]

@LaLight: What are the rules for a situation where we repeatedly no-lynch, no-kill?

You just play until you're starved to death. On a serious note, if scum team forgoes the kill 3 times in a row, town wins.

[Uncleeurope]

@LaLight: What are the rules for a situation where we repeatedly no-lynch, no-kill?

You just play until you're starved to death. On a serious note, if scum team forgoes the kill 3 times in a row, town wins.

Forgoes the kill or fails to kill?

[silverspawn]

without me the lynch would have never happened, though. that's some very bold scum play you're imagining here.

[silverspawn]

pretty sure I would only do something like that absent a tracker or cop.

[silverspawn]

So to make sure we have this claiming business under order.

Tracker can appear only with Cop, Doctor, or Jailkeeper. Therefore, if you are either a Neopolitan or the real Tracker, you should definitely claim, because then we simply lynch phyphor and win.

[silverspawn]

If you're the cop I think it's not obvious but I wouldn't object a claim. If you're the doctor don't claim.

[LaLight]

@LaLight: What are the rules for a situation where we repeatedly no-lynch, no-kill?

You just play until you're starved to death. On a serious note, if scum team forgoes the kill 3 times in a row, town wins.

Forgoes the kill or fails to kill?

Both. If there's no kill for 3 nights in a row, town wins.

[silverspawn]

so mcmc stated suspicion on simon but then never voted. That does indeed look bad.

[silverspawn]

Follow-the-tracker works with both a JK and a doctor... hmm...

Ok, so we didn't explain what that means. Here is what it means. We don't lynch people anymore. Doctor/JK protects the claimed tracker (phyphor) every night. Phyphor tracks one person every night. If a person gets NKd but phyphor doesn't see its target targeting anyone, then its target is proven town. If phyphor sees its target targeting the person who was killed, then its target is scum, obviously. So in effect tracker does the same thing as Cop. If scum chooses not to NK anyone, well then we simply do the same next night. as LaLight just confirmed, scum eventually does have to kill people.

In effect tracker has identical function to a Cop.

[faust]

Follow-the-tracker works with both a JK and a doctor... hmm...

Ok, so we didn't explain what that means. Here is what it means. We don't lynch people anymore. Doctor/JK protects the claimed tracker (phyphor) every night. Phyphor tracks one person every night. If a person gets NKd but phyphor doesn't see its target targeting anyone, then its target is proven town. If phyphor sees its target targeting the person who was killed, then its target is scum, obviously. So in effect tracker does the same thing as Cop. If scum chooses not to NK anyone, well then we simply do the same next night. as LaLight just confirmed, scum eventually does have to kill people.

In effect tracker has identical function to a Cop.

Err... a Jailkeeper would block any action that phyphor takes...

[faust]

We don't lynch people anymore.

I am not sure why this would be beneficial.

[silverspawn]

Follow-the-tracker works with both a JK and a doctor... hmm...

Ok, so we didn't explain what that means. Here is what it means. We don't lynch people anymore. Doctor/JK protects the claimed tracker (phyphor) every night. Phyphor tracks one person every night. If a person gets NKd but phyphor doesn't see its target targeting anyone, then its target is proven town. If phyphor sees its target targeting the person who was killed, then its target is scum, obviously. So in effect tracker does the same thing as Cop. If scum chooses not to NK anyone, well then we simply do the same next night. as LaLight just confirmed, scum eventually does have to kill people.

In effect tracker has identical function to a Cop.

Err... a Jailkeeper would block any action that phyphor takes...

Oh, right.

We don't lynch people anymore.

I am not sure why this would be beneficial.

Not lynching means more time to investigate people. I thought it was common wisdom to stop lynching when playing follow-the-cop

[faust]

Not lynching means more time to investigate people. I thought it was common wisdom to stop lynching when playing follow-the-cop

Lynching is also a way to investigate people. And it is actually not functionally different really.

Say player X is suspicious.

Plan A: phyphor investigates X N2. We find out X is scum, we win. We find out X is town, well optimal play for scum is to kill X during N3. We start D4 with one investigation.

Plan B: We lynch X. Same situation. We start D3 with one investigation. The only thing different is that it took us one Day less to get there.

[silverspawn]

But if phyhor investigates X and X is town, then phyphor can just say "I found out someone is town" and not reveal who it is. Then plan A becomes better because we can stockpile ICs. And there's no risk in doing this because scum has to NK the doctor before they can NK phyphor, so phyphor can claim all of his targets once that happens.

[faust]

But if phyhor investigates X and X is town, then phyphor can just say "I found out someone is town" and not reveal who it is. Then plan A becomes better because we can stockpile ICs. And there's no risk in doing this because scum has to NK the doctor before they can NK phyphor, so phyphor can claim all of his targets once that happens.

That is a good thing to do.

I just have a really strong feeling that it's not going to take us more than 2 investigations anyway, but you are of course correct and this is probably the best play.

[faust]

But if phyhor investigates X and X is town, then phyphor can just say "I found out someone is town" and not reveal who it is. Then plan A becomes better because we can stockpile ICs. And there's no risk in doing this because scum has to NK the doctor before they can NK phyphor, so phyphor can claim all of his targets once that happens.

That is a good thing to do.

I just have a really strong feeling that it's not going to take us more than 2 investigations anyway, but you are of course correct and this is probably the best play.

Oh on the other hand we can still lynch today since we don't run any risk of lynching a player that phy investigated. Maybe this is just me wanting to find arguments for securing the perfect win.

[mcmcsalot]

Alright, scum lynch day one plus a no kill. We pretty much have this in the bag though I’m not sure the IC credit being thrown around is totally merited. I do think we can massclaim and then really know what’s going on.

Here is what happens if we massclaim:
If a Neapolitan claims then we win, one of phyphor or the Neapolitan must be scum.
If a cop and a doctor claim we win, one of phyphor or the cop or the doc must be scum.
If a jk and a doctor claim we win, same as cop and doctor.

If just a cop claims, the cop is an IC and the cops target last night is an IC. There would still be a chance that phyphor is lying scum, or that Faust is scum who chose not to kill.

If just a jailkeeper claims, the jailkeeper is an IC, we know nothing about their target. There would still be a chance phyphor is lying scum or that Faust is scum who chose not to kill.

If just a doctor claims, the doctor is an IC. We know nothing about their target. There would still be a chance phyphor is lying scum, or that Faust is scum who chose not to kill.

[faust]

If just a doctor claims, the doctor is an IC. We know nothing about their target. There would still be a chance phyphor is lying scum, or that Faust is scum who chose not to kill.

No, there would not be a chance that phyphor is scum. But nice try.

Vote: mcmc

[faust]

Just to reiterate. Doctor, do not claim. It is terrible for you to claim. Any one power role should claim.

[faust]

Just to reiterate. Doctor, do not claim. It is terrible for you to claim. Any oneother power role should claim.

EBWOP

[mcmcsalot]

Oh right, no instance of solo doctor occurs so in the event there is a doctor tracker is IC.

So in the event no other pr claims phyphor is an IC.

So yea if there is a non doc or they should claim then if there is also a doctor they should claim because we would win.

[mcmcsalot]

If just a doctor claims, the doctor is an IC. We know nothing about their target. There would still be a chance phyphor is lying scum, or that Faust is scum who chose not to kill.

No, there would not be a chance that phyphor is scum. But nice try.

Vote: mcmc

Do you think I am scummy because I made an error about the setup? Or because I was like you not on the simon wagon which didn’t need my vote to go through and I said I was fine with going through but that I felt the case was no stronger than my silver case and only a bit better than the umbrage case.

As long as the lynch wasn’t you/wcd/Europe I was fine with it.

[faust]

If just a doctor claims, the doctor is an IC. We know nothing about their target. There would still be a chance phyphor is lying scum, or that Faust is scum who chose not to kill.

No, there would not be a chance that phyphor is scum. But nice try.

Vote: mcmc

Do you think I am scummy because I made an error about the setup? Or because I was like you not on the simon wagon which didn’t need my vote to go through and I said I was fine with going through but that I felt the case was no stronger than my silver case and only a bit better than the umbrage case.

As long as the lynch wasn’t you/wcd/Europe I was fine with it.

Yes.

[mcmcsalot]

Well you are probably town and you probably win even if you lynch me so it’s all good.

For what it’s worth I still think silver is scummy.

[WestCoastDidds]

Yahoo!

I found the lynching somewhat stressful because I was past needing to go to sleep but still needed to vote to avoid some inadvertent no lynch if the europe folks didn’t get up soon enough. The good news of that particular stress, aside from lynching scum a few hours early, is that the deadline is no longer at 4 am for me.

FWIW, the 12 minutes between the intent to hammer and hammer was largely determined by my inability to stay up any longer. Simon was showing online green the whole time, so he was on, even if he wasn’t on our board. I guess I could have figured out my intent sooner, but it was his last post pushing Hyper that made my choice. Anyway, apologies if I did any of that with newbish inelegance.

Thanks, all, for spelling out the acronyms and the scenarios. I’ll wait to see if anyone has anything else to say about their roles...but reading Faust reminded me that Simon finding confidence in San Alina’s posts seems to come out of nowhere. She hadn’t posted much at all, and had provided very little commentary. So, as far as partners go MC seems a likely possibility.

[hypercube]

I guess I should have trusted my gut more on Simon. Glad everything worked out anyways.

I'm fine with not lynching and letting phyphor investigate people.

[faust]

I think we're only waiting to hear from UoS, then phyphor will be conf!town.

[WestCoastDidds]

I think we're only waiting to hear from UoS, then phyphor will be conf!town.

So, if UoS doesn't claim something, that means someone is the doctor and is following the advice not to claim? And then we no lynch and Phy tracks? am I following?

[faust]

I think we're only waiting to hear from UoS, then phyphor will be conf!town.

So, if UoS doesn't claim something, that means someone is the doctor and is following the advice not to claim? And then we no lynch and Phy tracks? am I following?

I'm still in favor of lynching mcmc and then if we haven't won let phy track people.

[mcmcsalot]

I think we're only waiting to hear from UoS, then phyphor will be conf!town.

So, if UoS doesn't claim something, that means someone is the doctor and is following the advice not to claim? And then we no lynch and Phy tracks? am I following?

I'm still in favor of lynching mcmc and then if we haven't won let phy track people.

It’s best for us to no lynch and continue to let phy track. The only think lynching does is benefit scum. In a world where you as scum no killed last night you now need to start picking off townies as fast as possible scum currently needs to kill the doctor so phy is guaranteed another track which will be an ic, and if scum doesn’t hit the doctor we get increasing amount of ic’s/shots at scum as time goes on.

[faust]

I think we're only waiting to hear from UoS, then phyphor will be conf!town.

So, if UoS doesn't claim something, that means someone is the doctor and is following the advice not to claim? And then we no lynch and Phy tracks? am I following?

I'm still in favor of lynching mcmc and then if we haven't won let phy track people.

It’s best for us to no lynch and continue to let phy track. The only think lynching does is benefit scum. In a world where you as scum no killed last night you now need to start picking off townies as fast as possible scum currently needs to kill the doctor so phy is guaranteed another track which will be an ic, and if scum doesn’t hit the doctor we get increasing amount of ic’s/shots at scum as time goes on.

So if we give up a shot at hitting scum, we gain a shot at hitting scum? I mean you already softclaimed non-doctor so I don't quite see how lynching you benefits scum. There is very little functional difference for us between a dead VT and an IC'd VT.

[mcmcsalot]

I think we're only waiting to hear from UoS, then phyphor will be conf!town.

So, if UoS doesn't claim something, that means someone is the doctor and is following the advice not to claim? And then we no lynch and Phy tracks? am I following?

I'm still in favor of lynching mcmc and then if we haven't won let phy track people.

It’s best for us to no lynch and continue to let phy track. The only think lynching does is benefit scum. In a world where you as scum no killed last night you now need to start picking off townies as fast as possible scum currently needs to kill the doctor so phy is guaranteed another track which will be an ic, and if scum doesn’t hit the doctor we get increasing amount of ic’s/shots at scum as time goes on.

So if we give up a shot at hitting scum, we gain a shot at hitting scum? I mean you already softclaimed non-doctor so I don't quite see how lynching you benefits scum. There is very little functional difference for us between a dead VT and an IC'd VT.

You are right, a dead vt and an ic vt only have one difference, scum still needs to kill the IC vt to win.

We should 100% be no lynching

[silverspawn]

I think we're only waiting to hear from UoS, then phyphor will be conf!town.

So, if UoS doesn't claim something, that means someone is the doctor and is following the advice not to claim? And then we no lynch and Phy tracks? am I following?

I'm still in favor of lynching mcmc and then if we haven't won let phy track people.

ye. I agree

I think we're only waiting to hear from UoS, then phyphor will be conf!town.

So, if UoS doesn't claim something, that means someone is the doctor and is following the advice not to claim? And then we no lynch and Phy tracks? am I following?

yup (except for the lynching mcmc first part)

[WestCoastDidds]

yup (except for the lynching mcmc first part)

And we'd lynch him in hopes that is he is scum we have a perfect game and can revel in our awesomeness?

[faust]

yup (except for the lynching mcmc first part)

And we'd lynch him in hopes that is he is scum we have a perfect game and can revel in our awesomeness?

Pretty much. I mean there is no serious downside to lynching him now. phyphor has some number of investigations that does not depend on mcmc being alive, only on the accuracy of scum. The only scenario where keeping mcmc alive would help is one where phyphor continually stays alive and still can't figure out who's scum. So scum would have to continually kill off phy's investigation targets until we are down to 3 alive. That even if we lynch mcmc today still 4 investigations away. It won't happen that way.

[mcmcsalot]

I think you are misrepresenting how much time we have and are leading us down the only path scum has to win because you want a “perfect game”.

1IC, 6T, 1M

Mislynch + nk = 5T, 1M plus one tracking result = 2IC, 3T, 1M
If the kill hits the doctor that is the last tracking result we get. The next day
Mislynch + nk = 1IC, 2T, 1M. No new result because tracker will have died. This is mylo, one more mislynch + nk = 1T, 1M and mafia wins.

So in a world where mafia hits the doctor tonight and the tracker tommorow we only get 2 more mislynches.  If Faust is scum who no killed last night and is now very likely to make it to the end of the game, this is the way he wins.

[silverspawn]

Mislynch + nk = 5T, 1M plus one tracking result = 2IC, 3T, 1M

I think it makes no difference. Here's looking at both scenarios. Assuming everything goes wrong, how much has to go wrong for us to end up at LyLo?

Let's say we begin by lynching mcmc. [Towns (ICs) / Scum:]
7 (1) / 1 -> mislynch -> NK on doctor -> 5 (2) / 1 -> mislynch -> NK on IC -> 3 (1) / 1 = LyLo (with 1 IC)

In order to get to LyLo, we need 2 mislynches and the wrong target from phy, and scum needs to hit doctor immediately.

Let's say we no-lynch immediately. Then
7 (1) / 1 -> nolynch -> NK on doctor -> 6 (2) / 1 -> mislynch -> NK on IC -> 4 (1) / 1 -> mislynch -> NK on IC -> 2 /1 = LyLo

Also requires 2 mislynches, the wrong target from phy, and that scum hits the doctor first try. Same as above.

[silverspawn]

So... yeah. Let's lunch MC.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

Hi everyone.

I'm not a Jailkeeper or a Cop.

I like trying to shoot for a perfect game.

If Mcmcsalot is scum, the way he wins is to draw the investigation tonight and No Kill, then start killing again once he is cleared. The same goes for Cube or anyone else. The IC is only a true IC if someone dies, although I think this first time is more likely.

Haven't read everything posted today so far, will get to it, but wanted to chime in so you aren't all in suspense. Actually based on the lack of NK I was first thinking Cube was the more likely scum than Mcmc. But I don't think either of them are the players we want to be bringing into the hypothetical LYLO where Tracker has terrible accuracy and we mislynch peopled.

Plus, perfect game would be fun.

[silverspawn]

If Mcmcsalot is scum, the way he wins is to draw the investigation tonight and No Kill, then start killing again once he is cleared.

nonono. If a no-kill occurs, we no-lynch and the tracker targets the same guy again in respose.

[mcmcsalot]

If Mcmcsalot is scum, the way he wins is to draw the investigation tonight and No Kill, then start killing again once he is cleared.

nonono. If a no-kill occurs, we no-lynch and the tracker targets the same guy again in respose.

Silver is correct here, which is why scum!faust who no lynched last night and people aren’t talking about needing to be tracked again wants to push us to just go for a perfect game and lynch me instead of the more logical play which is to no lynch and take our time.

[faust]

So... yeah. Let's lunch MC.

Nyom.

[mcmcsalot]

So... yeah. Let's lunch MC.

Nyom.

STAHP

[silverspawn]

So... yeah. Let's lunch MC.

Nyom.

STAHP

vote: MC

[silverspawn]

you've now tried to smear the two semi-ICs instead of any reasonable target.

[hypercube]

If just a doctor claims, the doctor is an IC. We know nothing about their target. There would still be a chance phyphor is lying scum, or that Faust is scum who chose not to kill.

Sure, I can agree that this is pretty scummy. vote: mcmc

[WestCoastDidds]

If just a doctor claims, the doctor is an IC. We know nothing about their target. There would still be a chance phyphor is lying scum, or that Faust is scum who chose not to kill.

Sure, I can agree that this is pretty scummy. vote: mcmc

Pretty sure that is L-1 for Mcmc....

vote count 2.WCD takes 5 to lynch

MCMC (4): hypercube, UncleEddie, faust, silver
not voting: WCD, UoS, Mcmc, Phy

Intent to hammer Mcmc....

someone tell me the correct amount of time to wait, please

[mcmcsalot]

So... yeah. Let's lunch MC.

Nyom.

STAHP

vote: MC

HALT

[mcmcsalot]

If just a doctor claims, the doctor is an IC. We know nothing about their target. There would still be a chance phyphor is lying scum, or that Faust is scum who chose not to kill.

Sure, I can agree that this is pretty scummy. vote: mcmc

DESIST

[mcmcsalot]

If just a doctor claims, the doctor is an IC. We know nothing about their target. There would still be a chance phyphor is lying scum, or that Faust is scum who chose not to kill.

Sure, I can agree that this is pretty scummy. vote: mcmc

Pretty sure that is L-1 for Mcmc....

vote count 2.WCD takes 5 to lynch

MCMC (4): hypercube, UncleEddie, faust, silver
not voting: WCD, UoS, Mcmc, Phy

Intent to hammer Mcmc....

someone tell me the correct amount of time to wait, please

The correct amount of time is don’t do it!!!

[UmbrageOfSnow]

I never get to lolhammer.

Vote: mcmcsalot

[mcmcsalot]

Honestly really good game everyone. What a rough spot it was to jump into. I felt a little bad when I offered to sub in because often having an outside perspective can give you better reads and I had a pretty strong scum read on simon jester as I was following along. When I joined the game o was created by the fact that I was completely correct in my scum read and that he was my partner!

[UmbrageOfSnow]

Yeah, I really don't envy you that spot, nice effort in a bad situation.

Also, I'm even happier that I got page top.

Also also, What did you newbies think? This isn't really how games go that often, usually they take longer, but I do think you got a feel for how things work hopefully? Day 1 doesn't have to be random.

I'm only sad you don't get to see us going back and analyzing Simon's interactions with all the other players looking for his partner, but that was just going to be irrelevant the way this all played out.

[silverspawn]

NICE

[mcmcsalot]

My best shot was no killing last night and getting tracked by phyphor. Then I could at least have opened the day in Faust’s position “pseudo ic” and get myself a few days to take care of the pr’s.

Are you the doc umbrage?

[UmbrageOfSnow]

Are you the doc umbrage?

Yes, what gave me away?

[silverspawn]

what a game!

Honestly really good game everyone. What a rough spot it was to jump into. I felt a little bad when I offered to sub in because often having an outside perspective can give you better reads and I had a pretty strong scum read on simon jester as I was following along. When I joined the game o was created by the fact that I was completely correct in my scum read and that he was my partner!

ugh, that just sounds incredibly frustrating. having a correct read and then not being able to use it.

you really couldn't have done anything here. I did not even scumread you yesterday, if we hadn't lynched your partner it could have gone totally differently.

[mcmcsalot]

Are you the doc umbrage?

Yes, what gave me away?

Your general play style yesterday indicated pr. You were less reads focused and more management focused which indicated you could do more than just vote and you beloved phyphor immediately. Then today your not jk or cop claim sealed the deal. I was going to shoot you last night but though faust and silver would still hound me down. I had to be “cleared” by phyphor to win.

[LaLight]

Vote Count 2.final

mcmcsalot (5): Uncleeurope, faust, silverspawn, hypercube, UmbrageOfSnow
Not Voting (3): phyphor, WestCoastDidds, mcmcsalot

With 8 alive it took 5 to Lynch.

mcmcsalot was lynched! He was a Mafia Goon. His favorite animal was a Penguin.

Town Wins!

[silverspawn]

who did you target UoS?

[mcmcsalot]

what a game!

Honestly really good game everyone. What a rough spot it was to jump into. I felt a little bad when I offered to sub in because often having an outside perspective can give you better reads and I had a pretty strong scum read on simon jester as I was following along. When I joined the game o was created by the fact that I was completely correct in my scum read and that he was my partner!

ugh, that just sounds incredibly frustrating. having a correct read and then not being able to use it.

you really couldn't have done anything here. I did not even scumread you yesterday, if we hadn't lynched your partner it could have gone totally differently.

Yea I debated just running with the read anyway and bussing simon from the start but A) I didn’t want to end simons game so quick and B) with this few people a day one scum lynch is just brutal. I was so ready to get phyphor mislynched and then he had to claim the darn tracker. It was a huge blow, on top of the fact that Simon reacted in a way that nullified him from claiming doctor.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

who did you target UoS?

Phyphor. That was really the only play when Simon flipped scum I think. Tracker becomes cop essentially. I'm happy with my QT being released if LaLight does that, although a lot of it is drafts of that big advice post, and me second guessing myself and briefly being really mad at faust about the "cheating" thing.

[mcmcsalot]

Dang rough to lose a game where you correctly identify one of two scum, a doctor, and two vanilla townies (Faust and westcoastdidds). But I had a blast.

I think mvp should go to westcoastdids, she played so fantastically townie I was already factoring in when I was going to have to kill her to prevent being in a situation where the only unknowns left we’re going to be me and her.

But shoutout to faust as well who caught simon the quickest and then correctly picked up on my partner tells.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

I'm kind of glad all the true newbies were town, I think that gives a better feel for what the game is most often like.

[mcmcsalot]

https://www.quicktopic.com/52/H/sJHzQMJgih8JH

Here is the mafia qt, it’s got all my advice to simon, as well as l my thought on the game state, pretty interesting read I think.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

Yeah that early WCD flashwagon did a lot to help me townread her too.

[WestCoastDidds]

Honestly really good game everyone. What a rough spot it was to jump into. I felt a little bad when I offered to sub in because often having an outside perspective can give you better reads and I had a pretty strong scum read on simon jester as I was following along. When I joined the game o was created by the fact that I was completely correct in my scum read and that he was my partner!

Totally tough spot! And you seem like a good dude so I’m glad to meet you!

[hypercube]

Good game everyone! I'll be back for another I'm sure.

[WestCoastDidds]

Yeah, I really don't envy you that spot, nice effort in a bad situation.

Also, I'm even happier that I got page top.

Also also, What did you newbies think? This isn't really how games go that often, usually they take longer, but I do think you got a feel for how things work hopefully? Day 1 doesn't have to be random.

I'm only sad you don't get to see us going back and analyzing Simon's interactions with all the other players looking for his partner, but that was just going to be irrelevant the way this all played out.

It was fun! Weird, but fun. I would like to play another newbie game.

It was interesting to look back at simons interactions because he was so pro-Alina and anti-me and we had very similar levels and kinds of interactions. I didn’t know what she seemed “confident” and I was scummy.

[mcmcsalot]

I'm kind of glad all the true newbies were town, I think that gives a better feel for what the game is most often like.

I actually thing although the game was a good learning experience for the newbies, it felt like the newbie/vet dynamic was a little too mentor/mentee.

I was tossing around the idea that if newbies (less than say 3 or 5 games) wanted to play in a normal game that they could request a vet partner. The vet would only have access to their private qt and could help with some of the “am I stupid for thinking this” questions.

That way everyone is on even in game fields.

[WestCoastDidds]

https://www.quicktopic.com/52/H/sJHzQMJgih8JH

Here is the mafia qt, it’s got all my advice to simon, as well as l my thought on the game state, pretty interesting read I think.

Oh, that was super interesting. Thanks for continuing to record your thoughts. Much insight to be gleaned...

[Uncleeurope]

Are you the doc umbrage?

Yes, what gave me away?

I guessed this too when you said "I am neither Cop nor Jailkeeper"

Seems like a carefully stated claim, haha.



And I echo Mc's concern regarding the mentor/mentee thingy, seemed like the newbies were a little more timid than they would have been in different circumstances.

GG guys! Also, I was not evil, Snow, ya weirdo.

[LaLight]

Here is speccy that contains your favorite animals (fun fact: Faust and phyphor have the same one!) and feel free to share your QTs everyone. Also if someone (Faust/gkrieg/silver/etc) would open another newbie game, I think we will have it filled I also would like to participate in one.

[WestCoastDidds]

I'm kind of glad all the true newbies were town, I think that gives a better feel for what the game is most often like.

I actually thing although the game was a good learning experience for the newbies, it felt like the newbie/vet dynamic was a little too mentor/mentee.

I was tossing around the idea that if newbies (less than say 3 or 5 games) wanted to play in a normal game that they could request a vet partner. The vet would only have access to their private qt and could help with some of the “am I stupid for thinking this” questions.

That way everyone is on even in game fields.

This is an excellent idea. I know I have more questions than most, but I’m probably also the least experienced in the format/game having never played IRL or anywhere else. The vets in this game were really helpful, but I can see that the teaching also disrupted the flow of the game. I think if there are more people joining who are truly green, that is a way to help acclimate them. I have been following the two other games belong played right now and there is so much more history (meta?) being relied upon that leaves me scratching my head.

It is already my sense that one of the reasons that this is fun is because you get to know these folks over time and have actual relationships with them, which is the only reason I get hooked on any kind of game. So, community, yeah that matters. Everyone has been generous with their time, here and in the game lingo board, and I appreciate it.

[WestCoastDidds]

Are you the doc umbrage?

Yes, what gave me away?

I guessed this too when you said "I am neither Cop nor Jailkeeper"

Seems like a carefully stated claim, haha.

Same!

[UmbrageOfSnow]

UE: Well I was townreading you after Simon anyway.

But yeah, I was just paranoid. Although this is also a style thing, I think I tend to suspect people and end up with a townread on them and bounce around suspecting a lot of people. I think this works out well in the long run, I think I am more likely than random to end up not townreading scum out of all this. Also I think faust is always going to scumread me for it.

But the real lesson is: reevaluate your reads!

[silverspawn]

QT (it was admittedly pretty silly to expect to be NKd)

[UmbrageOfSnow]

My QT

[Uncleeurope]

Oh, you people use those things a bunch to talk to yourself, interesting.

Also, I appreciate the nod to me being a semi-destructive town member.

I am just a bit experimental is all, heh.

Heh.

[phyphor]

I guessed this too when you said "I am neither Cop nor Jailkeeper"

Yeah, for all the complaints about how subtle I was this was definitely a claim without saying the words.

I'm not sure I counted as timid, either.

[mcmcsalot]

I guessed this too when you said "I am neither Cop nor Jailkeeper"

Yeah, for all the complaints about how subtle I was this was definitely a claim without saying the words.

I'm not sure I counted as timid, either.

The difference was your claim was to prevent your lynch and was after intent to lynch you had been stated, so it’s sort of all or nothing at that point. Though also I overblew how I felt about the claim because I needed to still get you lynched.

[Uncleeurope]

Here is speccy that contains your favorite animals (fun fact: Faust and phyphor have the same one!) and feel free to share your QTs everyone. Also if someone (Faust/gkrieg/silver/etc) would open another newbie game, I think we will have it filled I also would like to participate in one.

I am probably up for another as well, if this were to happen.

[silverspawn]

Here is speccy that contains your favorite animals (fun fact: Faust and phyphor have the same one!) and feel free to share your QTs everyone. Also if someone (Faust/gkrieg/silver/etc) would open another newbie game, I think we will have it filled I also would like to participate in one.

I am probably up for another as well, if this were to happen.

It did happen!

[silverspawn]

@LaLight: I was copying your last newbie game as a template. I noticed you put black text in between colored text by closing and re-opening the color tags. You can also have a second [color =black] [/color] tag inside of the other tag, which I find a little easier.

[LaLight]

@LaLight: I was copying your last newbie game as a template. I noticed you put black text in between colored text by closing and re-opening the color tags. You can also have a second [color =black] [/color] tag inside of the other tag, which I find a little easier.

Wow, thanks!

[WestCoastDidds]

Noob friends (UncleEddie, Hypercube, Simon, Phyphor, etc.), silver opened another newbie game.

Go to "forum games" and you'll see it (Adventure Time) under the uncategorized stuff. 

[WestCoastDidds]

Or go here: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=18930.0

[silverspawn]

game still needs an official wrap-up

[LaLight]

Vote Count 2.final

mcmcsalot (5): Uncleeurope, faust, silverspawn, hypercube, UmbrageOfSnow
Not Voting (3): phyphor, WestCoastDidds, mcmcsalot

With 8 alive it took 5 to Lynch.

mcmcsalot was lynched! He was a Mafia Goon. His favorite animal was a Penguin.

Town Wins!

[silverspawn]

sneak edit?

Also needs an mvp.

[Awaclus]

Woo! This is exciting. We might actually have the first game ever with zero town deaths if we catch the last scum today.

It's too late for that.

[silverspawn]

eh, blitz doesn't count.

[LaLight]

sneak edit?

Also needs an mvp.

Not really sneak. I wanted to edit that message

[WestCoastDidds]

Thank you for the game, LaLight, and for pinging the whole discord group to find some of us!
This is an interesting community and a fun game.

[Uncleeurope]

sneak edit?

Also needs an mvp.

How do MVP’s work?

[Awaclus]

sneak edit?

Also needs an mvp.

How do MVP’s work?

The mod picks the player they think was the most valuable to their faction, usually from the winning faction. And then that player is the MVP and gets to brag about it.