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Author Topic: Interesting Card Design Challenges  (Read 2661 times)

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kru5h

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Re: Interesting Card Design Challenges
« Reply #25 on: August 15, 2018, 01:12:46 am »
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My attempts at making cheap and expensive attacks:

Quote
Pawnbroker - $2
Each other player gains a Copper. Each player (including you) may trash a card from their hand.

I came up with almost exactly the same card a few days ago! The only difference was that mine gained you a Silver.

So, this card is actually more powerful than it seems. When it "hits", it's a Cutpurse. When it misses, it's a junker. So it's actually stronger than Cutpurse. You could argue that since you have the option of trashing, it's weaker than Cutpurse, but this hits way more frequently and even damages you when it misses. Overall, I'd say it's slightly stronger.

I doubt it. At first, your opponents can trash Estates. Replacing Estates to Coppers is nice for them, isn't it?

Ah. On my version you could only trash Coppers. Didn't notice how the subtle wording difference could change the card. Still, seems a bit cheap for it.

majiponi

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Re: Interesting Card Design Challenges
« Reply #26 on: August 15, 2018, 04:01:36 am »
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The idea of a $2 cost Attack is interesting--it's tricky to design since the attack and benefit need to be mild enough to fit the low cost, but not so mild that the attack effectively does nothing (i.e. imagine an attack even milder than Fortune Teller).  My solution is to make the card require multiple copies to actually attack and to get stronger with more copies, so while it's cheap, it still requires an investment.  Note: I have not tested this at all, so it could be a nothing card. 



By itself, a single Knave is just a Copper, not a great deal for $2.  But with two of them in play, you get a nice discard attack, and each one after that Curses your opponent too.  Knave is non-terminal so you can easily play several of them, but the tricky part will be when to gain them and how to line them up to start attacking.  It's a pretty bad opener, and the benefit to your deck apart from the Attack is very slight.  It will take a few turns to start attacking consistently, and once it does, the discarding and cursing will make it harder for players to keep lining them up.  It's possible that unlimited cursing after three in play might get a bit oppressive, but I figured that getting to a point where you play more than three of these consistently will usually take a while.  I toyed with the idea of giving them a +Buy to make it easier to get more of them, but +1 Action +$1 seemed stronger on average than +1 Action +1 Buy.  Not sure though.  Overpaying to get extra copies or Forum-style "When you buy this, +1 Buy" are also options, but that's a lot of extra text on an already wordy card. 

Thoughts?  What are other ways to make a $2 cost attack work?

How about Duration-Silver?

Quote
Poison
cost $2 - Action - Duration
At the start of your next turn:
+$2, if another Poison is in play, each other player gains a Curse, and otherwise, they discard down to 3 cards in hand.
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Holunder9

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Re: Interesting Card Design Challenges
« Reply #27 on: August 15, 2018, 10:49:22 am »
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The idea of a $2 cost Attack is interesting--it's tricky to design since the attack and benefit need to be mild enough to fit the low cost, but not so mild that the attack effectively does nothing (i.e. imagine an attack even milder than Fortune Teller).  My solution is to make the card require multiple copies to actually attack and to get stronger with more copies, so while it's cheap, it still requires an investment.  Note: I have not tested this at all, so it could be a nothing card. 



By itself, a single Knave is just a Copper, not a great deal for $2.  But with two of them in play, you get a nice discard attack, and each one after that Curses your opponent too.  Knave is non-terminal so you can easily play several of them, but the tricky part will be when to gain them and how to line them up to start attacking.  It's a pretty bad opener, and the benefit to your deck apart from the Attack is very slight.  It will take a few turns to start attacking consistently, and once it does, the discarding and cursing will make it harder for players to keep lining them up.  It's possible that unlimited cursing after three in play might get a bit oppressive, but I figured that getting to a point where you play more than three of these consistently will usually take a while.  I toyed with the idea of giving them a +Buy to make it easier to get more of them, but +1 Action +$1 seemed stronger on average than +1 Action +1 Buy.  Not sure though.  Overpaying to get extra copies or Forum-style "When you buy this, +1 Buy" are also options, but that's a lot of extra text on an already wordy card. 

Thoughts?  What are other ways to make a $2 cost attack work?
Of course it has to be tested but it looks sound. 2 Coppers to Militia and 3 Coppers to Witch seems like a fair pooortunity cost at the first glance. What I like most about it is that it is a late Attack that is probably only good in engines so the junking will come later than with other junkers. So no rush for Cursers like in a "normal" game but rather first some engine building and then some Knaves.
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trivialknot

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Re: Interesting Card Design Challenges
« Reply #28 on: August 15, 2018, 10:15:20 pm »
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I am bad at card names, but

Quote
Vulture - $3 Reaction
When another player gains a card, you may reveal and discard this from your hand to gain a cheaper non-victory card, or to draw a card.

Pawnbroker looks pretty cool, but if you're able to stack it, it could get nasty fast.  Imagine playing it 3 times per turn, opponents aren't going to want to trash down to 2 cards.

Challenges: Create a treasure/action card that isn't Crown.  Create a pure debt-cost card.
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kru5h

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Re: Interesting Card Design Challenges
« Reply #29 on: August 15, 2018, 10:33:05 pm »
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Challenges: Create a treasure/action card that isn't Crown.  Create a pure debt-cost card.

I created an Action/Treasure card for my Conspiracy set, but it's pretty boring.

Quote
Dagger Action - Treasure,
If it's your Action phase, trash a card from your hand.
If it's your Buy phase, +1 Buy.
---
When you discard this from play, you may shuffle it into your deck.

Edit: Does anybody have a good template for Action - Treasure cards? The one I'm using looks terrible. I want to give this card an image, but I can't with my current template.
« Last Edit: August 15, 2018, 10:55:34 pm by kru5h »
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Freddy10

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Re: Interesting Card Design Challenges
« Reply #30 on: August 15, 2018, 11:29:50 pm »
+1

Edit: Does anybody have a good template for Action - Treasure cards? The one I'm using looks terrible. I want to give this card an image, but I can't with my current template.
Have you tried VioletCLM's card generator? https://shemitz.net/static/dominion3/
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ConMan

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Re: Interesting Card Design Challenges
« Reply #31 on: August 16, 2018, 12:20:18 am »
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For something a little wacky ...

Coronet
Action - Treasure - $4
If it's your Action phase, you may play up to 3 Treasure cards from your hand, then draw up to 6 cards in hand.
If it's your Buy phase, discard any number of cards, then draw up to 6 cards in hand.
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kru5h

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Re: Interesting Card Design Challenges
« Reply #32 on: August 16, 2018, 01:19:57 am »
+1

For a pure reaction:

Quote
King Midas Reaction,
When a player (including you) gains a card costing from to , you may reveal this from your hand to exchange the gained card for a Gold.

If you play it on yourself, it's basically a + since it turns a into a , so not worth that much.

However, stopping your opponent from gaining Duchies or key engine components could be devastating. Maybe too strong.

kru5h

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Re: Interesting Card Design Challenges
« Reply #33 on: August 16, 2018, 01:38:16 am »
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Challenges: Create a treasure/action card that isn't Crown.  Create a pure debt-cost card.

Quote
Necklace Action - Treasure,
If it's your Buy phase, return to your Action phase.
In either case,
+1 Card
+2 Actions


Edit: Wait, that has some problems with it. Namely that you always want to play this as a Treasure and not an Action. I'll fix it shortly.

Quote
Royal Necklace Action - Treasure,
If it's your Action phase,
+1 Card
+2 Actions

If it's your Buy phase, return to your Action phase and +1 Action
« Last Edit: August 16, 2018, 01:46:13 am by kru5h »
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ClouduHieh

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Re: Interesting Card Design Challenges
« Reply #34 on: August 16, 2018, 05:48:30 am »
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My mad scientist idea is in my alchemy card ideas. Itís an unusual attack. Check it out on my forum. If your interested.
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Asper

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Re: Interesting Card Design Challenges
« Reply #35 on: August 16, 2018, 09:35:56 am »
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And my Sheriff is a cheap attack (a Curser even), albeit with overpay.

GendoIkari

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Re: Interesting Card Design Challenges
« Reply #36 on: August 16, 2018, 09:52:02 am »
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For a pure reaction:

Quote
King Midas Reaction,
When a player (including you) gains a card costing from to , you may reveal this from your hand to exchange the gained card for a Gold.

If you play it on yourself, it's basically a + since it turns a into a , so not worth that much.

However, stopping your opponent from gaining Duchies or key engine components could be devastating. Maybe too strong.

It's neat. I'd be worried about it slowing down the game too much though; as there's potentially a decision / action to take place for every buy.

I don't think it even needs the - clause; using it on yourself to turn a cheaper card into a Gold doesn't seem that powerful because you still have to have it in hand at the time you buy, and it's not a good card to have to be in your hand. It does need to not work on Provinces though.

Actually, it likely would just turn every game into a big-money; it's going to be hard for anyone to get engine components with this around.
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Holunder9

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Re: Interesting Card Design Challenges
« Reply #37 on: August 16, 2018, 10:15:39 am »
+1

I don't think it even needs the - clause; using it on yourself to turn a cheaper card into a Gold doesn't seem that powerful because you still have to have it in hand at the time you buy, and it's not a good card to have to be in your hand.
I agree, it can get away with "costing up to 6". While the card would become stronger as it includes more options, for the "attacked" plyer getting a Gold instead of a 2 or 3 is not that bad relatively to getting a Gold instead of a 5.
Also, whoever plays King Midas probably wants to play money even if the other players forsake King Midas as the card is relatively weaker in a draw engine (the higher the draw power of your deck the lower the strength of a pure Reaction that only works whiel it is not your turn). So as you said it could become too dominant in terms of shifting most Kingdoms in which it is present towards BM.
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Kudasai

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Re: Interesting Card Design Challenges
« Reply #38 on: August 16, 2018, 06:23:46 pm »
+1

Challenges: Create a treasure/action card that isn't Crown.  Create a pure debt-cost card.

I created an Action/Treasure card for my Conspiracy set, but it's pretty boring.

Quote
Dagger Action - Treasure,
If it's your Action phase, trash a card from your hand.
If it's your Buy phase, +1 Buy.
---
When you discard this from play, you may shuffle it into your deck.

Edit: Does anybody have a good template for Action - Treasure cards? The one I'm using looks terrible. I want to give this card an image, but I can't with my current template.

Looks like you found an Action-Treasure back. Just in case though, here is the one I use. Not sure if the quality is any better. Should have Alpha channels built in, but let me know if there isn't any transparency.



Also, I think dagger is pretty neat. It seems to be worth about $2 and has some interesting play dynamics. Like deciding when to shuffle it or not.
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Holunder9

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Re: Interesting Card Design Challenges
« Reply #39 on: August 17, 2018, 02:28:08 am »
+1

Quote
Royal Necklace Action - Treasure,
If it's your Action phase,
+1 Card
+2 Actions

If it's your Buy phase, return to your Action phase and +1 Action
Not sure why a village that becomes a Necro when drawn dead should have Debt costs; it could probably just cost $4.
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Aquila

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Re: Interesting Card Design Challenges
« Reply #40 on: August 17, 2018, 03:01:18 am »
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Challenges: Create a pure debt-cost card.
Quote
Victory, <8> cost.
5VP
-
When you gain this, if you have a different number of Actions and Treasures in play, trash it.
If you make a card have an awkward condition to meet to gain it, debt means it's always available when you meet the condition.

Here's a challenge I had a go at tackling: make a two-sided portrait card.
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spiralstaircase

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Re: Interesting Card Design Challenges
« Reply #41 on: August 17, 2018, 04:32:03 am »
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Here's a challenge I had a go at tackling: make a two-sided portrait card.

Hermit/Madman is pretty much this.
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King Leon

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Re: Interesting Card Design Challenges
« Reply #42 on: August 17, 2018, 10:10:43 am »
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Annexation is almost strictly better than Estate (if you forget about Baron and Inheritance). It should cost 3+, which is ok for a Curser. So it is a Great Hall variant.


Challenge: Victory Price card (other than Duchy)
Name: Pagodas
Type: Victory/Price
Cost: 0*

Worth: 6 VP - 1 VP per Province in your deck.
« Last Edit: August 17, 2018, 10:18:09 am by King Leon »
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Asper

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Re: Interesting Card Design Challenges
« Reply #43 on: August 17, 2018, 11:13:24 pm »
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Challenges: Create a pure debt-cost card.
Quote
Victory, <8> cost.
5VP
-
When you gain this, if you have a different number of Actions and Treasures in play, trash it.
If you make a card have an awkward condition to meet to gain it, debt means it's always available when you meet the condition.

Here's a challenge I had a go at tackling: make a two-sided portrait card.

I suggest making the restriction match Grand Market's "You can't buy this". It's very rare you can gain a debt cost card without buying it, either way.

Holger

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Re: Interesting Card Design Challenges
« Reply #44 on: August 18, 2018, 03:45:38 pm »
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For a pure reaction:

Quote
King Midas Reaction,
When a player (including you) gains a card costing from to , you may reveal this from your hand to exchange the gained card for a Gold.

If you play it on yourself, it's basically a + since it turns a into a , so not worth that much.

However, stopping your opponent from gaining Duchies or key engine components could be devastating. Maybe too strong.

It's neat. I'd be worried about it slowing down the game too much though; as there's potentially a decision / action to take place for every buy.

I don't think it even needs the - clause; using it on yourself to turn a cheaper card into a Gold doesn't seem that powerful because you still have to have it in hand at the time you buy, and it's not a good card to have to be in your hand. It does need to not work on Provinces though.

Actually, it likely would just turn every game into a big-money; it's going to be hard for anyone to get engine components with this around.

Without the $4-$6 cost restriction it would allow you to buy Gold for $0, which probably makes BM-Midas overpowered when there's good or spammable +buy around.
If you keep the restriction (at least for the player themself), the card sounds more interesting to me, since it's only a "Gold-Quarry" during your own turn.
« Last Edit: August 18, 2018, 03:47:20 pm by Holger »
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kru5h

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Re: Interesting Card Design Challenges
« Reply #45 on: August 19, 2018, 02:52:58 am »
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Challenges: Create a treasure/action card that isn't Crown.

Okay, I tried for a day or two. This is the best I could come up with.



It's pretty basic and has probably been done before, but I kinda like it.

Here's a challenge I had a go at tackling: make a two-sided portrait card.

I'm not sure what this means. Two sides as in back and front? Or two sides as in top side and bottom side? I'm not sure what the difference would be between a card with two sides and a card that simply says "Choose one:".
« Last Edit: August 19, 2018, 03:07:09 am by kru5h »
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King Leon

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Re: Interesting Card Design Challenges
« Reply #46 on: August 19, 2018, 04:29:14 am »
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Challenges: Create a pure debt-cost card.
Quote
Victory, <8> cost.
5VP
-
When you gain this, if you have a different number of Actions and Treasures in play, trash it.
If you make a card have an awkward condition to meet to gain it, debt means it's always available when you meet the condition.

Here's a challenge I had a go at tackling: make a two-sided portrait card.

Remodel, Replace, Transmogrify or Zombie Mason a City Quarter, Overlord or Royal Blacksmith to that Victory card sounds nice, but it only works if you played Black Market (which is non-terminal) or Story Teller before or if you bought a Villa.
« Last Edit: August 19, 2018, 04:32:10 am by King Leon »
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Asper

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Re: Interesting Card Design Challenges
« Reply #47 on: August 19, 2018, 06:58:39 am »
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It's pretty basic and has probably been done before, but I kinda like it.

Yes, it has. 😉

I did this as an Action-Reaction before Crown came along as a proof-of-concept.

Holunder9

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Re: Interesting Card Design Challenges
« Reply #48 on: August 19, 2018, 01:21:26 pm »
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Challenges: Create a treasure/action card that isn't Crown.

Okay, I tried for a day or two. This is the best I could come up with.



It's pretty basic and has probably been done before, but I kinda like it.
Like Courtier, Legionary and Sacred Grove this is a terminal Gold with something extra. You can also read it the other way around, as a Silver plus with the plus being the option to play it as terminal Gold.
Compared to the other cards the non-terminality option of Silver doesn't seem very exciting but it is probably balanced and being a low-risk card is definitely worth something. It can be situationally useful (except for obvious things like drawing it dead), e.g. in a Scrying Pool engine with not enough terminal space this is likely the best Coin-yielding card on the board.
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Aquila

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Re: Interesting Card Design Challenges
« Reply #49 on: August 19, 2018, 03:15:10 pm »
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Here's a challenge I had a go at tackling: make a two-sided portrait card.

I'm not sure what this means. Two sides as in back and front? Or two sides as in top side and bottom side? I'm not sure what the difference would be between a card with two sides and a card that simply says "Choose one:".
I mean back and front. Having 2 different Action choices on the front and back would be better done as a 'choose one' as that saves other players needlessly seeing the back of the card when it's in your hand, or you when it's in your deck. So can you use or get around this factor?

Challenges: Create a treasure/action card that isn't Crown.
Quote
Metalsmith - Action Treasure, $4 cost.
Reveal the top 3 cards of your deck. If it's your Action phase, put the Actions in your hand. If it's your Buy phase, put the Treasures in your hand. Discard the rest.
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