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Author Topic: Interesting Card Design Challenges  (Read 2656 times)

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kru5h

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Interesting Card Design Challenges
« on: August 12, 2018, 10:18:53 pm »
+1

I'm out of card ideas. Please post interesting card design challenges.

Here's my contribution: An attack card that has an unusual cost. Could cost , could cost . Maybe it has a cost of , costs debt, or you overpay for it.

Whatever, just come up with cards for the posted challenges or post an interesting challenge yourself.

More examples: Victory/Duration card. A pure Reaction card with no Action part. Etc.

Edit: Guys, I meant Victory/Action/Duration. Doesn't need to be pure Duration without an Action part. That's too awkward.
« Last Edit: August 15, 2018, 11:04:50 pm by kru5h »
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Aquila

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Re: Interesting Card Design Challenges
« Reply #1 on: August 13, 2018, 04:17:48 pm »
+1

Victory/Duration card
I had crossed the idea of pure Durations. A Victory/Duration could be:
Quote
Clayfields - Victory/Duration, $6 cost.
2VP
-
For the rest of the game, when you buy a Victory card, draw an extra card for your next hand.
When you gain this, play it.
(This stays in play.)
For the potential it has maybe 1VP is enough. Tracking issues as well, especially Villa.
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Chappy7

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Re: Interesting Card Design Challenges
« Reply #2 on: August 13, 2018, 04:58:04 pm »
0

Reaction - $6 Cost

-When you buy this, if you don't already have your -1 card token, you may immediately trash this for $8 and take your -1 card token.
-When you draw this, you may reveal this.  If you do, +2 Cards.

It's either a double borrow or a non-terminal lab.
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Holunder9

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Re: Interesting Card Design Challenges
« Reply #3 on: August 13, 2018, 05:22:01 pm »
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Interesting idea. There are some subtle differences to Lab like not throneable and vulnerable to handsize attacks.
I don't like the first option though, seems too similar to Farmland.
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Kudasai

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Re: Interesting Card Design Challenges
« Reply #4 on: August 13, 2018, 10:31:32 pm »
0

Unusual Attack Cost Challenge - Not technically an Attack, but close enough count. Made this one a few years ago and never tried to figure out if it's balanced or not.


Victory-Duration Challenge - Another one that I haven't had time to polish. Not quite sure where this one is going yet. Also, this isn't technically a pure Victory-Duration, so challenge failed. :(


A challenge I've been trying to crack for a year or so is to come up with a way to incorporate a health bar into Dominion. With States it now seems possible. My idea is to use Estates as your health bar, but beyond that I'm not sure how to execute it or make it fair.

Victory/Duration card
I had crossed the idea of pure Durations. A Victory/Duration could be:
Quote
Clayfields - Victory/Duration, $6 cost.
2VP
-
For the rest of the game, when you buy a Victory card, draw an extra card for your next hand.
When you gain this, play it.
(This stays in play.)
For the potential it has maybe 1VP is enough. Tracking issues as well, especially Villa.

Very interesting card. Curious how this plays. Going straight into play makes it quite strong. Maybe too strong?
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kru5h

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Re: Interesting Card Design Challenges
« Reply #5 on: August 14, 2018, 01:32:31 am »
0

Unusual Attack Cost Challenge - Not technically an Attack, but close enough count. Made this one a few years ago and never tried to figure out if it's balanced or not.


Seems pretty powerful to Curse players for . I was thinking of a similar card, but I was going to use Jinx tokens. (When a player has 6 or more Jinx tokens, they return 6 to gain a Curse.) It was going to be 2 Jinx tokens per , so a Curse for every you spent. Of course, the card itself would give Jinx tokens too, so it's not a waste to give somebody Just 2 tokens.

Also, I'd be really interested in seeing a attack card from somebody.

Holunder9

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Re: Interesting Card Design Challenges
« Reply #6 on: August 14, 2018, 02:27:57 am »
0

Town Hall is strictly better than Duchy.

Seems pretty powerful to Curse players for .
You have to pay 4 to curse them. And while a cantrip that curses on-buy seems better than IGG the on-play sifting for the opponents can easily compensate for that.
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kru5h

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Re: Interesting Card Design Challenges
« Reply #7 on: August 14, 2018, 02:32:58 am »
0

Town Hall is strictly better than Duchy.

It's strictly better than a 5-cost Duchy, but it makes Duchies cost 4 (or less) for other players.

I still think it's better than Duchy, but since it lowers the price of Duchies, it's not strictly better.

Holunder9

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Re: Interesting Card Design Challenges
« Reply #8 on: August 14, 2018, 02:40:31 am »
+1

Town Hall is strictly better than Duchy.

It's strictly better than a 5-cost Duchy, but it makes Duchies cost 4 (or less) for other players.

I still think it's better than Duchy, but since it lowers the price of Duchies, it's not strictly better.
Sure, technically it is not strictly better but in every other sense it is. Even if the card made Duchies cost $0 it would very likely be too good.

You gotta keep in mind that Town Hall, if you split it into two cards, would be a Duchy plus a Lab. It is not a big thing with Great Hall and Mill as 1VP is trivial but 3VPs matter.
So the key issue is that rushing Town Halls is probably the dominant strategy, at least with Workshop variants around, whereas "exploiting" that and buying some cheap Duchies early doesn't work as your deck is full of dead cards.
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kru5h

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Re: Interesting Card Design Challenges
« Reply #9 on: August 14, 2018, 02:42:55 am »
0

Town Hall is strictly better than Duchy.

It's strictly better than a 5-cost Duchy, but it makes Duchies cost 4 (or less) for other players.

I still think it's better than Duchy, but since it lowers the price of Duchies, it's not strictly better.
Sure, technically it is not strictly better but in every other sense it is. Even if the card made Duchies cost $0 it would very likely be too good.

You gotta keep in mind that Town Hall, if you split it into two cards, would be a Duchy plus a Lab. It is not a big thing with Great Hall and Mill as 1VP is trivial but 3VPs matter.
So the key issue is that rushing Town Halls is probably the dominant strategy, at least with Workshop variants around, whereas "exploiting" that and buying some cheap Duchies early doesn't work as your deck is full of dead cards.

I agree. It's "clearly better." I try not to use "strictly" unless it's in a technical sense.

Gazbag

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Re: Interesting Card Design Challenges
« Reply #10 on: August 14, 2018, 04:25:55 am »
+2

Town Hall is strictly better than Duchy.

It's strictly better than a 5-cost Duchy, but it makes Duchies cost 4 (or less) for other players.

I still think it's better than Duchy, but since it lowers the price of Duchies, it's not strictly better.
Sure, technically it is not strictly better but in every other sense it is. Even if the card made Duchies cost $0 it would very likely be too good.

You gotta keep in mind that Town Hall, if you split it into two cards, would be a Duchy plus a Lab. It is not a big thing with Great Hall and Mill as 1VP is trivial but 3VPs matter.
So the key issue is that rushing Town Halls is probably the dominant strategy, at least with Workshop variants around, whereas "exploiting" that and buying some cheap Duchies early doesn't work as your deck is full of dead cards.

I agree. It's "clearly better." I try not to use "strictly" unless it's in a technical sense.

You don't have to play it, you just have the option to, which makes it strictly better than Duchy.
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faust

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Re: Interesting Card Design Challenges
« Reply #11 on: August 14, 2018, 06:12:02 am »
0

Card that could get potentially wacky:

Quote
Evil Overlord - Action - Attack, $7

Choose an non-Duration Action card from the supply costing up to $5. Each player plays that card, leaving it there.
« Last Edit: August 14, 2018, 06:14:06 am by faust »
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Commodore Chuckles

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Re: Interesting Card Design Challenges
« Reply #12 on: August 14, 2018, 09:10:05 am »
0

Also, I'd be really interested in seeing a attack card from somebody.

Well, it wouldn't be hard to come up with a card that has a decent attack but is expensive due to the other stuff it does (see Goons). It's much trickier, though, to come up with an attack that itself warrants a high price but isn't completely broken.

Quote
Evil Overlord - Action - Attack, $7

Choose an non-Duration Action card from the supply costing up to $5. Each player plays that card, leaving it there.

How exactly does this work? Does everyone gain a copy of the card and play it? Or do they reveal their hands if they don't have a copy to play? And in what order do they play them?

This seems pretty weak/nichey. It's hard to think of cards that will help you but hurt the other guy when you both play them.
« Last Edit: August 14, 2018, 09:18:22 am by Commodore Chuckles »
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LostPhoenix

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Re: Interesting Card Design Challenges
« Reply #13 on: August 14, 2018, 09:32:49 am »
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Challenge: Create another card with the Curse type, or better yet, replaces the Curse cards altogether.
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ipofanes

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Re: Interesting Card Design Challenges
« Reply #14 on: August 14, 2018, 09:37:47 am »
0

Serfdom - Action, $4

Sacrifice a card costing $5 or more from hand. If you do: Gain a Province.
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Aquila

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Re: Interesting Card Design Challenges
« Reply #15 on: August 14, 2018, 10:54:32 am »
0

Challenge: Create another card with the Curse type, or better yet, replaces the Curse cards altogether.
Quote
Plague - Curse, $0 cost.
When you trash this, take <1>.
-
Setup: replace the Curse cards with the same number of Plagues. (When you would gain a Curse card, instead gain a Plague.)
If a player doesn't like the -VP bit of curses then they should be harder junk to get rid of, if Donald found Confusions bad.


Serfdom - Action, $4

Sacrifice a card costing $5 or more from hand. If you do: Gain a Province.
Expand: is it a fair comparison to this, doing the same but more? Or is the main strength of Expand making estates $5s?
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spiralstaircase

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Re: Interesting Card Design Challenges
« Reply #16 on: August 14, 2018, 11:17:37 am »
+1

More examples: Victory/Duration card.

Peace treaty
Cost: $3
Types: Victory, Duration
Worth 2VP.
When you buy this, put it into play.  (This card stays in play)
While this is in play, if you play an Attack card, you may gain a curse.  If you do not, return this to the supply.
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ipofanes

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Re: Interesting Card Design Challenges
« Reply #17 on: August 14, 2018, 11:38:56 am »
0

If there are no (attractive) Attacks in play, this may become spammable. But a Province that doesn't clutter your hand for $9 and three buys sounds still reasonable. Also, I like that it goes to hand when gained by Ironworks/Hermit etc.
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faust

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Re: Interesting Card Design Challenges
« Reply #18 on: August 14, 2018, 12:22:28 pm »
0

Also, I'd be really interested in seeing a attack card from somebody.

Well, it wouldn't be hard to come up with a card that has a decent attack but is expensive due to the other stuff it does (see Goons). It's much trickier, though, to come up with an attack that itself warrants a high price but isn't completely broken.

Quote
Evil Overlord - Action - Attack, $7

Choose an non-Duration Action card from the supply costing up to $5. Each player plays that card, leaving it there.

How exactly does this work? Does everyone gain a copy of the card and play it? Or do they reveal their hands if they don't have a copy to play? And in what order do they play them?

This seems pretty weak/nichey. It's hard to think of cards that will help you but hurt the other guy when you both play them.
No, they play exactly the named card from the supply, similar to how Necromancer plays cards from the trash. It will be a bit nichey, but there some good combos:
- Bridge
- in multiplayer, any junking when you can block it.
- Ambassador
- any trashing in the mid-to-late game
- possibly Beggar
- Mandarin
- Sacred Grove
- Council Room

It would probably be better if it lets you go last with your play.
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4est

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Re: Interesting Card Design Challenges
« Reply #19 on: August 14, 2018, 01:02:32 pm »
+2

The idea of a $2 cost Attack is interesting--it's tricky to design since the attack and benefit need to be mild enough to fit the low cost, but not so mild that the attack effectively does nothing (i.e. imagine an attack even milder than Fortune Teller).  My solution is to make the card require multiple copies to actually attack and to get stronger with more copies, so while it's cheap, it still requires an investment.  Note: I have not tested this at all, so it could be a nothing card. 



By itself, a single Knave is just a Copper, not a great deal for $2.  But with two of them in play, you get a nice discard attack, and each one after that Curses your opponent too.  Knave is non-terminal so you can easily play several of them, but the tricky part will be when to gain them and how to line them up to start attacking.  It's a pretty bad opener, and the benefit to your deck apart from the Attack is very slight.  It will take a few turns to start attacking consistently, and once it does, the discarding and cursing will make it harder for players to keep lining them up.  It's possible that unlimited cursing after three in play might get a bit oppressive, but I figured that getting to a point where you play more than three of these consistently will usually take a while.  I toyed with the idea of giving them a +Buy to make it easier to get more of them, but +1 Action +$1 seemed stronger on average than +1 Action +1 Buy.  Not sure though.  Overpaying to get extra copies or Forum-style "When you buy this, +1 Buy" are also options, but that's a lot of extra text on an already wordy card. 

Thoughts?  What are other ways to make a $2 cost attack work?
« Last Edit: August 14, 2018, 01:05:35 pm by 4est »
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Commodore Chuckles

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Re: Interesting Card Design Challenges
« Reply #20 on: August 14, 2018, 01:36:27 pm »
+1

My attempts at making cheap and expensive attacks:

Quote
Pawnbroker - $2
Each other player gains a Copper. Each player (including you) may trash a card from their hand.

In general, has a net effect of trashing for you and -1 card for everyone else.

Quote
Master Thief - $7
Each other player reveals their hand. Gain a card from each hand to yours that is not a Master Thief or Victory card, and then each other player gains to their hand a card costing less than the one they lost.

My attempt at the uber-powerful "Take a card from your opponent's hand and put it in yours" idea. They gain a card costing less so that gaining expensive cards isn't completely discouraged, and it can't gain itself to prevent the swinginess that would probably result.
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Jack Rudd

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Re: Interesting Card Design Challenges
« Reply #21 on: August 14, 2018, 05:14:20 pm »
0

I can see all sort of fun issues arising with Evil Overlording Durations.
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ConMan

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Re: Interesting Card Design Challenges
« Reply #22 on: August 14, 2018, 08:34:55 pm »
+1

You could possibly have a pure Reaction as part of a split pile, where it reacts to the other card in the pile being played. Something like ...

Card A
Reaction
When another player plays a Card B, you may reveal this from your hand, for <benefit>.

Card B
Action
<Benefit>
If any other player revealed Card B, <benefit>.
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kru5h

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Re: Interesting Card Design Challenges
« Reply #23 on: August 14, 2018, 08:43:53 pm »
0

My attempts at making cheap and expensive attacks:

Quote
Pawnbroker - $2
Each other player gains a Copper. Each player (including you) may trash a card from their hand.

I came up with almost exactly the same card a few days ago! The only difference was that mine gained you a Silver.

So, this card is actually more powerful than it seems. When it "hits", it's a Cutpurse. When it misses, it's a junker. So it's actually stronger than Cutpurse. You could argue that since you have the option of trashing, it's weaker than Cutpurse, but this hits way more frequently and even damages you when it misses. Overall, I'd say it's slightly stronger.

majiponi

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Re: Interesting Card Design Challenges
« Reply #24 on: August 15, 2018, 01:08:01 am »
+1

My attempts at making cheap and expensive attacks:

Quote
Pawnbroker - $2
Each other player gains a Copper. Each player (including you) may trash a card from their hand.

I came up with almost exactly the same card a few days ago! The only difference was that mine gained you a Silver.

So, this card is actually more powerful than it seems. When it "hits", it's a Cutpurse. When it misses, it's a junker. So it's actually stronger than Cutpurse. You could argue that since you have the option of trashing, it's weaker than Cutpurse, but this hits way more frequently and even damages you when it misses. Overall, I'd say it's slightly stronger.

I doubt it. At first, your opponents can trash Estates. Replacing Estates to Coppers is nice for them, isn't it?
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