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UmbrageOfSnow

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Dominion-themed RMM Open setup idea
« on: August 09, 2018, 07:13:31 pm »

Not necessarily looking to run this anytime soon, but if someone else wants to, have at it.

I really just want to flesh out an idea and don't have a better place for it, and since it's an open setup anyway...

Okay, so use the random.org List Randomizer on a list of CCCCCCCEEE for each player.
Each player is assigned either 3/4 or 2/5 based on the list randomization. Then roll for scum/town.

N0 begins, basically everyone builds their own JOAT. Everyone buys X-shot powers following these rules (can't use until N1):
3/4 players may buy either a 4-cost and a 3-cost power, or two 3-cost powers. These can match or not.
5/2 players may buy a 5-cost power in which case THEY MUST buy one of the negative utility 2-cost powers. Alternatively they can buy a single 4-cost or 3-cost power with no negative utility.

Here's the list (updated):
2: Duchess - Motivate 1 random ability for someone in the other faction each night
2: Lurker -  Hated

3: Caravan Guard - 2-shot Bodyguard (Strongman leaves alive and kills target)
3: Fortune Teller - 1-shot Role Cop
3: Swindler - 1-shot Redirector (Targetís target changed to new target)

4: Island - 1-shot Jailkeeper
4: Messenger - 1-shot Tracker
4: Fortress - 2-shot Bulletproof

5: Giant - Odd night Ninja/Even night Strongman (Goes through JK/BP/BG, can be redir), Odd-night non-Strongman Vig if town
5: Mystic - Weak Doctor

Thoughts? Opinions on balance? Opinions on any powers being so good or so bad as to not be interesting? Better card names?

Code: [Select]
Original List
2: Duchess - Motivate 1 random ability for someone in the other faction each night
2: Lurker -  Hated

3: Caravan Guard - 2-shot Bodyguard (Strongman leaves alive and kills target)
3: Ambassador - 1-shot Neighborizer
3: Night Watchman - 2-shot Tracker
3: Swindler - 1-shot Redirector (Targetís target changed to new target)

4: Island - 1-shot Jailkeeper
4: Navigator - 1-shot Role Cop
4: Throne Room - 1-shot Loyal Motivator if taken by scum, 2-shot if town
4: Fortress - 2-shot Bulletproof

5: Pillage - 1-shot Strongman (Goes through JK/BP/BG, can be redir), 1-shot non-Strongman Vig if town
5: Mystic - 1-shot Cop [Or Weak Doctor?]
« Last Edit: August 10, 2018, 03:57:07 pm by UmbrageOfSnow »
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faust

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Re: Dominion-themed RMM Open setup idea
« Reply #1 on: August 10, 2018, 02:50:38 am »

It's good to see you here again!

So, some thoughts:
- balancing will be difficult. You want to avoid that many people make the same choice. With things as they are now, I would with any opening buy only Night Watchman. A game where each townie is either 2-shot or even 4-shot (!) Tracker is basically already lost for scum. You want people to make different choices, but at the same time you need to make sure the game does not break if everyone makes the same choice.
- this also runs into the problem that scum is weakened. Usually in RMMs, you want the average scum player to have a stronger role than the average town player. Here, it is the same. You could make up for it by having more scum, but in my experience it is best not to meddle with the number of scums because it will make the game more swingy.
- your $5s seem too bad to make up for the $2s you have to take. I would always rather go with a single $4 or $3.
- why not go full on Dominion? Have the opening as described, but instead of having 1-shot abilities from then on, have players draw through their deck. They can then either play a mafia actin or buy more. Obviously this should still be relatively simple, so you wouldn't want to include too many Dominion mechanics. But some trashing or additional money would be fun.
« Last Edit: August 10, 2018, 02:55:32 am by faust »
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Since the number of points is within a constant factor of the number of city quarters, in the long run we can get (4 - ε) ↑↑ n points in n turns for any ε > 0.

UmbrageOfSnow

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Re: Dominion-themed RMM Open setup idea
« Reply #2 on: August 10, 2018, 03:23:23 am »

Hey Faust, thanks, and thanks.

I like the other idea, but I think that's a different (related) game, with more mod workload, but seems fun. Like play actual dominion with a random kingdom of normal cards, but no victory points, just Moat is now +2 cards, you may choose a player to be protected from 1 kill. Sweet Donald that would be terrible to mod. But hilarious.

Anyway, for this idea, what about something like this:
2: Duchess - Motivate 1 random ability for someone in the other faction each night
2: Lurker -  Hated

3: Caravan Guard - 2-shot Bodyguard (Strongman leaves alive and kills target)
3: Ambassador - 2-shot Neighborizer (same Neighborhood)
3: Night Watchman - 1-shot Tracker
3: Swindler - 1-shot Redirector (Targetís target changed to new target)

4: Island - 1-shot Jailkeeper
4: Navigator - 1-shot Role Cop
4: Throne Room - 1-shot Loyal Motivator if taken by scum, 2-shot if town
4: Fortress - 2-shot Bulletproof

5: Pillage - Odd night Ninja/Even night Strongman (Goes through JK/BP/BG, can be redir), Odd-night non-Strongman Vig if town
5: Mystic - Weak Doctor

I really do see this as only very slightly on the edge of RMM anyway, it's just with no VTs it's more that than a "normal" game, but I was thinking much less crazy overall. I guess it is pretty crazy.
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faust

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Re: Dominion-themed RMM Open setup idea
« Reply #3 on: August 10, 2018, 10:54:48 am »

It is interesting to ponder the question what would happen if you had 3 Bodyguards with cyclic protection and one of them is shot.

I think even 1-shot Tracker is still too strong at $3. It could be switched with Role Cop, which is weaker in my opinion.

I am unsure how you intend Motivating to work here. Most of the powers available are 1-shot or at most 2-shot, can I even use Motivator if I have only 1 shot left?

It bothers me that the actual 1-shot, Pillage, is one of the few non 1-shots in the game, but from balance it is probably no issue.
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Since the number of points is within a constant factor of the number of city quarters, in the long run we can get (4 - ε) ↑↑ n points in n turns for any ε > 0.

UmbrageOfSnow

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Re: Dominion-themed RMM Open setup idea
« Reply #4 on: August 10, 2018, 11:44:47 am »

Yeah the bodyguard thing just needs an action resolution decided on ahead of time but I don't think it's a problem. Since a Bodyguard doesn't protect a Weak role from dying from targeting scum, I'd vote for making it "the bodyguard protects its target if they are the target of a night kill" and so if A->B->C->A and scum shoot C then only B dies.

My feeling is that Role Cop is significantly more powerful than Tracker here but I could be wrong. There are a lot of potential night actions and it's a crapshoot to actually follow the NK and they still have an out. It definitely helps solve the setup come claim time but the Role Cop does a lot more for that.

My intention is that if I say Motivate: Faust on N1, on N2 you get "You have been MOTIVATED. You may use 1 of your powers 1 additional time." EDIT: Just realized the problem, the other meaning of motivator. I'm intending it as +1 shot total, not 2 actions in a night! (Also of note, I'm intending Duchess to stop doing anything when the player who choose it dies, and maybe it should just be Odd-night or something to make it not as bad.)

And yeah, I came up with the name Pillage early on and then realized that Embargo and Feast weren't thematic to very much and there weren't enough 1-shot cards. Torturer? Mountebank? Butcher? Giant?
« Last Edit: August 10, 2018, 11:48:37 am by UmbrageOfSnow »
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faust

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Re: Dominion-themed RMM Open setup idea
« Reply #5 on: August 10, 2018, 01:01:50 pm »

And yeah, I came up with the name Pillage early on and then realized that Embargo and Feast weren't thematic to very much and there weren't enough 1-shot cards. Torturer? Mountebank? Butcher? Giant?
Since it does Odd-Night stuff, Giant seems quite appropriate.

About Role Cop vs Tracker... Role Cop is stronger in the sense that it impacts scum's strategy more. Due to Role Cop being in the game, scum is more likely to choose townie roles. But because that is what they will do, the stuff a Role Cop can uncover is quite limited, whereas a Tracked nightkill almost always means a scum lynch (offset a bit by Ninja, but that only works on odd nights, so Trackers would simply wait for the even night).
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Since the number of points is within a constant factor of the number of city quarters, in the long run we can get (4 - ε) ↑↑ n points in n turns for any ε > 0.

gkrieg13

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Re: Dominion-themed RMM Open setup idea
« Reply #6 on: August 10, 2018, 02:31:40 pm »

deckbuilding mafia sounds like it could be fun.  I agree with faust that tracker is very strong.  If you just have everyone buy tracker, you could probably direct them well enough that you could pick up the night kill.  It is very difficult to argue your way out of a tracked nightkill.
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UmbrageOfSnow

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Re: Dominion-themed RMM Open setup idea
« Reply #7 on: August 10, 2018, 02:36:39 pm »

Good point about the rolecop, at one point I had Strongman not having any Town utility so it was basically a guilty and a few more totally useless to scum roles, I think I got locked into a train of thought and needed to reconsider.  The whole point of talking this stuff out!

Current List
2: Duchess - Motivate 1 random ability for someone in the other faction each night
2: Lurker -  Hated

3: Caravan Guard - 2-shot Bodyguard (Strongman leaves alive and kills target)
3: Ambassador - 2-shot Neighborizer (same Neighborhood)
3: Fortune Teller - 1-shot Role Cop
3: Swindler - 1-shot Redirector (Targetís target changed to new target)

4: Island - 1-shot Jailkeeper
4: Messenger - 1-shot Tracker
4: Throne Room - 1-shot Loyal Motivator if taken by scum, 2-shot if town
4: Fortress - 2-shot Bulletproof

5: Giant - Odd night Ninja/Even night Strongman (Goes through JK/BP/BG, can be redir), Odd-night non-Strongman Vig if town
5: Mystic - Weak Doctor

Another thought, maybe it would be interesting to randomly remove one of the 3s and one of the 4s at the start of each game, just to make it a 10-card kingdom. (Could also come up with more "cards" later.) Or could just lose the two least interesting.

Thanks for all the help.
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UmbrageOfSnow

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Re: Dominion-themed RMM Open setup idea
« Reply #8 on: August 10, 2018, 02:39:30 pm »

Ideally I'd like at least one player to seriously consider each option. I'm thinking some, like Fortress, appeal more to certain kinds of players than others, but if they are too unbalanced it's boring.
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gkrieg13

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Re: Dominion-themed RMM Open setup idea
« Reply #9 on: August 10, 2018, 02:44:21 pm »

I don't get the motivators.  Why would you ever choose a 1-shot motivator as scum, or a 2-shot motivator as town?
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UmbrageOfSnow

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Re: Dominion-themed RMM Open setup idea
« Reply #10 on: August 10, 2018, 02:50:23 pm »

Loyal meaning same-faction rather than town, just to be clear. To give your scumbuddy additional shots. I think that may need reconsideration, because it made more sense with 1-shot strongman, but I think the odd/even night thing is WAY better for overall balance.

I was planning it as more of a scum role originally, although town could choose if they wanted to gamble on what was at the time a 1-shot cop who could potentially be protected.

Yeah that's kind of gotten less sensible with the other changes. Maybe I should just cut it.
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UmbrageOfSnow

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Re: Dominion-themed RMM Open setup idea
« Reply #11 on: August 10, 2018, 02:52:23 pm »

Maybe this?
2: Duchess - Motivate 1 random ability for someone in the other faction each night
2: Lurker -  Hated

3: Caravan Guard - 2-shot Bodyguard (Strongman leaves alive and kills target)
3: Fortune Teller - 1-shot Role Cop
3: Swindler - 1-shot Redirector (Targetís target changed to new target)

4: Island - 1-shot Jailkeeper
4: Messenger - 1-shot Tracker
4: Fortress - 2-shot Bulletproof

5: Giant - Odd night Ninja/Even night Strongman (Goes through JK/BP/BG, can be redir), Odd-night non-Strongman Vig if town
5: Mystic - Weak Doctor

Kill your darlings.  :'(
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UmbrageOfSnow

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Re: Dominion-themed RMM Open setup idea
« Reply #12 on: August 10, 2018, 02:59:05 pm »

I do think you guys are way overvaluing Tracker (although I do think it's good.)

If everyone is 1-shot Tracker and Town directs them, Scum just doesn't kill that night.

And a Day 3 guilty result on 1 Scum isn't that bad anyway.
« Last Edit: August 10, 2018, 03:00:47 pm by UmbrageOfSnow »
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gkrieg13

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Re: Dominion-themed RMM Open setup idea
« Reply #13 on: August 10, 2018, 04:27:02 pm »

I do think you guys are way overvaluing Tracker (although I do think it's good.)

If everyone is 1-shot Tracker and Town directs them, Scum just doesn't kill that night.

And a Day 3 guilty result on 1 Scum isn't that bad anyway.

Then you could put in an option that if all town put $3 in the pot, one scum will be mod-revealed at the beginning of the Day after everyone has majority-voted for it.
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gkrieg13

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Re: Dominion-themed RMM Open setup idea
« Reply #14 on: August 10, 2018, 04:28:03 pm »

How are you planning on buffing scum in this setup?
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UmbrageOfSnow

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Re: Dominion-themed RMM Open setup idea
« Reply #15 on: August 10, 2018, 04:31:25 pm »

Then you could put in an option that if all town put $3 in the pot, one scum will be mod-revealed at the beginning of the Day after everyone has majority-voted for it.

If cops are allowed in games why don't we just reveal the scumteam at the start?
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UmbrageOfSnow

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Re: Dominion-themed RMM Open setup idea
« Reply #16 on: August 10, 2018, 04:34:00 pm »

How are you planning on buffing scum in this setup?

Depends on the game size/distribution, and I hadn't got that far, but I'd rather not. Scum gets the same powers as town, most of them (other than Bodyguard) have at least some utility to scum.

What's your theoretical reasoning that Scum need a buff?
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UmbrageOfSnow

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Re: Dominion-themed RMM Open setup idea
« Reply #17 on: August 10, 2018, 04:43:36 pm »

Regarding scum needing a buff, point of reference I've been thinking about:

It looks like Diffusion of Power:
13 player
3 Mafia Goons
4-6 Night Specific Cops
4-6 Night Specific Docs

Is pretty well balanced and slightly scum-sided.
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UmbrageOfSnow

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Re: Dominion-themed RMM Open setup idea
« Reply #18 on: August 10, 2018, 05:19:39 pm »

RE: Player count

I'm thinking 12 player, 3:9
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iguanaiguana

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Re: Dominion-themed RMM Open setup idea
« Reply #19 on: August 10, 2018, 08:42:04 pm »

Things that would make me excited:

More choices at each cost tier, so that there are more possibilties for final roles.

Lots and lots of agonizing time spent making each choice equally appealing so that when the setup runs the players will have no idea what each other player chose.

Maybe scum specific powers, like scum gets a completely different set of choices from town, and they are only visible to scum?

As a concept, I really like it!
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faust

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Re: Dominion-themed RMM Open setup idea
« Reply #20 on: August 11, 2018, 02:27:29 am »

Regarding scum needing a buff, point of reference I've been thinking about:

It looks like Diffusion of Power:
13 player
3 Mafia Goons
4-6 Night Specific Cops
4-6 Night Specific Docs

Is pretty well balanced and slightly scum-sided.
That is not a setup you'd want to use as a baseline. Maybe the average here is balanced, but it is super duper swingy. All Night 1 and Night 2 Cops? Town wins! Only 4 Night 5 Cops? Well goodnight.
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Since the number of points is within a constant factor of the number of city quarters, in the long run we can get (4 - ε) ↑↑ n points in n turns for any ε > 0.

UmbrageOfSnow

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Re: Dominion-themed RMM Open setup idea
« Reply #21 on: August 11, 2018, 11:33:57 am »

That is not a setup you'd want to use as a baseline. Maybe the average here is balanced, but it is super duper swingy. All Night 1 and Night 2 Cops? Town wins! Only 4 Night 5 Cops? Well goodnight.

I'm not arguing I want to play/run it, it looks terribly unfun. I'm arguing that on average it is balanced or slightly scum-sided. I'm arguing against the idea that having a high potential for a guilty result mathematically necessitates a need to beef up the scumteam.
« Last Edit: August 11, 2018, 11:42:57 am by UmbrageOfSnow »
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UmbrageOfSnow

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Re: Dominion-themed RMM Open setup idea
« Reply #22 on: August 11, 2018, 11:37:16 am »

The issue I'm seeing is I think the Giant does good things for the setup, but as scum I'd never pick it, I just use it for WIFOM and pick something else. The negative-utilities are too strong. I might still consider it as town, but weak doctor is just better I think, and the negatives are still an issue, although less fatal.

So 2 approaches, make Giant stronger for scum, or make the negatives less bad. Probably in some way buffing giant is more interesting?
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UmbrageOfSnow

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Re: Dominion-themed RMM Open setup idea
« Reply #23 on: August 11, 2018, 11:41:14 am »

Things that would make me excited:

More choices at each cost tier, so that there are more possibilties for final roles.

Lots and lots of agonizing time spent making each choice equally appealing so that when the setup runs the players will have no idea what each other player chose.

Maybe scum specific powers, like scum gets a completely different set of choices from town, and they are only visible to scum?

As a concept, I really like it!

I feel like the choices only visible to scum thing defeats the dominion/open nature of the idea but I think it could be fun in a different (related) setup.  As it stands, I was kind of hoping for a bit of predictability so that, for example, you know what the other team could have, can discuss it, can rolecop someone and know what choices they were choosing from among and use that as part of your read on them, etc.
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faust

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Re: Dominion-themed RMM Open setup idea
« Reply #24 on: August 11, 2018, 11:43:43 am »

The issue I'm seeing is I think the Giant does good things for the setup, but as scum I'd never pick it, I just use it for WIFOM and pick something else. The negative-utilities are too strong. I might still consider it as town, but weak doctor is just better I think, and the negatives are still an issue, although less fatal.
It is also notable that there is only a 49.2% chance that scum will even have a 5/2, assuming 3 scum. But yeah, the negatives are arguably worse for scum than they are for town, especially Hated.
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Since the number of points is within a constant factor of the number of city quarters, in the long run we can get (4 - ε) ↑↑ n points in n turns for any ε > 0.

UmbrageOfSnow

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Re: Dominion-themed RMM Open setup idea
« Reply #25 on: August 11, 2018, 12:26:14 pm »

I mean, I want some things to be better for town or scum because I want claims and rolecops to give some amount of reads and scum to consider doing things that are worse for them for the towncred.

So yeah, in a vaccuum I'd probably always pick Hated as town and Duchess as scum, but that makes Hated towny? But there is still a good excuse for Town to pick Duchess, there is room for both legit disagreement and therefore cover for scum to pick it. That's kind of what I want to aim for.

Possible weaker versions:
Hated in MYLO/LYLO
Motivate 2 opposite-team people on N1 (or N0?) and never again.

Possible scum-giant buff: What if the odd/even night action is randomized?
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