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Author Topic: Dominion: Renaissance on RGG's website  (Read 65945 times)

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GendoIkari

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Re: Dominion: Renaissance on RGG's website
« Reply #100 on: August 16, 2018, 11:36:15 am »
+6

I prefer having a +1 to "take a coin token."

I agree, but the wording change didn't happen for Pirate Ship and Trade Route. Is that because they have quite a different effect from "+# Coffers", or because the idea of changing the phrase came after these revised versions were printed?

With only two remaining "take a coin token" cards, with different effects from "Coffers", I feel that it's fitting these weren't rephrased. Once they're placed on their respective cards, they kind of do the same thing, so I like that you kept the same phrase for these two even in "2nd edition".

I think having a keyword makes less sense if there's only 1 card that uses the keyword. Pirate Ship could have been reworded to "+1 Plunder", but it would be sort of silly if nothing else in the game ever mentions Plunder; and then you need extra rules explaining what Plunder means, just to make that 1 card work.

It's sort of like automating a process. Automating it saves time for each time you run the process; but it has some overhead cost of automating it in the first place. This cost is worth it if that process runs multiple times; but if the process only runs once, then automating it just wastes time. Replace "time" with "rules text" for the analogy to work.

*Edit*: https://xkcd.com/1205/
« Last Edit: August 16, 2018, 11:39:37 am by GendoIkari »
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Oyvind

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Re: Dominion: Renaissance on RGG's website
« Reply #101 on: August 16, 2018, 11:51:32 am »
0

I prefer having a +1 to "take a coin token."

I agree, but the wording change didn't happen for Pirate Ship and Trade Route. Is that because they have quite a different effect from "+# Coffers", or because the idea of changing the phrase came after these revised versions were printed?

With only two remaining "take a coin token" cards, with different effects from "Coffers", I feel that it's fitting these weren't rephrased. Once they're placed on their respective cards, they kind of do the same thing, so I like that you kept the same phrase for these two even in "2nd edition".

I think having a keyword makes less sense if there's only 1 card that uses the keyword. Pirate Ship could have been reworded to "+1 Plunder", but it would be sort of silly if nothing else in the game ever mentions Plunder; and then you need extra rules explaining what Plunder means, just to make that 1 card work.

It's sort of like automating a process. Automating it saves time for each time you run the process; but it has some overhead cost of automating it in the first place. This cost is worth it if that process runs multiple times; but if the process only runs once, then automating it just wastes time. Replace "time" with "rules text" for the analogy to work.

*Edit*: https://xkcd.com/1205/

I agree, I was just curious. I think things like when design decisions happens, what the reasoning for different decisions is, and things like that are fun. Getting behind the scenes in a way.

We could be looking at other things that gets you coin tokens in Renaissance, which necessitated the rephrasing in Guilds. Having too many cards or card-shaped objects saying the same, when they mean different things, is problematic, and the Coffers way is probably the most ‘natural’ thing to give a new phrase. But there are several more things one could use those tokens for. ;-)

Edit: More text and a typo fix.
« Last Edit: August 16, 2018, 11:57:09 am by Oyvind »
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Holunder9

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Re: Dominion: Renaissance on RGG's website
« Reply #102 on: August 16, 2018, 12:01:07 pm »
+1

Wording is a preference (and being used to something) thing but the Coffers and the mat feels too artifical to me compared to "take a Coin token".

To avoid confusion with Trade Route and Pirate Ship these two cards could have been reworded, such that they use some generic tokens. As there are no generic tokens included in Prosperity and using the Embargo tokens for Pirate Ship only works if Embargo is not in the Kingdom I understand why this path has not been taken though.
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Commodore Chuckles

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Re: Dominion: Renaissance on RGG's website
« Reply #103 on: August 16, 2018, 12:23:58 pm »
0

Since there will apparently be Action Tokens, will we get a shorthand for them similar to Coffers? What would the shorthand be? Aquila came up with "+Power" for his fan expansion with Action Tokens. That seems like a good name, but I'm not sure it matches this set's theme.
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Re: Dominion: Renaissance on RGG's website
« Reply #104 on: August 16, 2018, 02:22:23 pm »
+2

Since there will apparently be Action Tokens, will we get a shorthand for them similar to Coffers? What would the shorthand be? Aquila came up with "+Power" for his fan expansion with Action Tokens. That seems like a good name, but I'm not sure it matches this set's theme.

Somebody (half-jokingly?) called them "Actors". I like that. The mat could be something like a stage. It fits the theme of renaissance, and the arts haven't exactly been overrepresented in Dominion, yet.
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Donald X.

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Re: Dominion: Renaissance on RGG's website
« Reply #105 on: August 16, 2018, 02:40:13 pm »
0

I prefer having a +1 to "take a coin token."

I agree, but the wording change didn't happen for Pirate Ship and Trade Route. Is that because they have quite a different effect from "+# Coffers", or because the idea of changing the phrase came after these revised versions were printed?

With only two remaining "take a coin token" cards, with different effects from "Coffers", I feel that it's fitting these weren't rephrased. Once they're placed on their respective cards, they kind of do the same thing, so I like that you kept the same phrase for these two even in "2nd edition".
They can't say "+1 Coffers" because that's not what they do. They don't each have a unique + because you want to use a term more often before you make people learn it. Well in rare cases you might make people learn a term for one thing, when you can't explain the thing on the card, but that wasn't an issue here.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Dominion: Renaissance on RGG's website
« Reply #106 on: August 16, 2018, 03:15:05 pm »
+1

I prefer having a +1 to "take a coin token."

I agree, but the wording change didn't happen for Pirate Ship and Trade Route. Is that because they have quite a different effect from "+# Coffers", or because the idea of changing the phrase came after these revised versions were printed?

With only two remaining "take a coin token" cards, with different effects from "Coffers", I feel that it's fitting these weren't rephrased. Once they're placed on their respective cards, they kind of do the same thing, so I like that you kept the same phrase for these two even in "2nd edition".
They can't say "+1 Coffers" because that's not what they do. They don't each have a unique + because you want to use a term more often before you make people learn it. Well in rare cases you might make people learn a term for one thing, when you can't explain the thing on the card, but that wasn't an issue here.

One of the more amusing things about MTG's comprehensive rules are a couple sections that exist specifically to explain how to interpret the text of just 1 specific card.
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Re: Dominion: Renaissance on RGG's website
« Reply #107 on: August 16, 2018, 07:37:16 pm »
0

Personally, I think it would save a lot of card space if Possession just said "Possess the player to your left" and then have the rulebook explain what "possess" means.
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Donald X.

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Re: Dominion: Renaissance on RGG's website
« Reply #108 on: August 16, 2018, 08:16:12 pm »
+8

Personally, I think it would save a lot of card space if Possession just said "Possess the player to your left" and then have the rulebook explain what "possess" means.
I always imagine "continued on next card."

The move with things as complex as Possession is of course to *not do them.*
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Re: Dominion: Renaissance on RGG's website
« Reply #109 on: August 16, 2018, 08:29:33 pm »
0

Since there will apparently be Action Tokens, will we get a shorthand for them similar to Coffers? What would the shorthand be? Aquila came up with "+Power" for his fan expansion with Action Tokens. That seems like a good name, but I'm not sure it matches this set's theme.

Somebody (half-jokingly?) called them "Actors". I like that. The mat could be something like a stage. It fits the theme of renaissance, and the arts haven't exactly been overrepresented in Dominion, yet.

I like this. Bet they'll be an attack like "Tragedy" or "Antagonist".
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GendoIkari

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Re: Dominion: Renaissance on RGG's website
« Reply #110 on: August 17, 2018, 02:43:56 am »
0

Personally, I think it would save a lot of card space if Possession just said "Possess the player to your left" and then have the rulebook explain what "possess" means.

This is basically what MTG does, except the cards say "You control target player during that player’s next turn."  And that's one of the examples I was talking about where they wrote an entire section of the rules just to explain what that one card did. But now there are multiple other cards that also let you control other players.
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chipperMDW

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Re: Dominion: Renaissance on RGG's website
« Reply #111 on: August 17, 2018, 03:24:34 am »
+2

This is basically what MTG does, except the cards say "You control target player during that player’s next turn."  And that's one of the examples I was talking about where they wrote an entire section of the rules just to explain what that one card did. But now there are multiple other cards that also let you control other players.

Hmm... Mindshaver could be a good name for that Zombie Barber people were talking about earlier.
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ospond

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Re: Dominion: Renaissance on RGG's website
« Reply #112 on: August 19, 2018, 12:38:53 pm »
+8

With so many Dominion expansions now (13 including base set), it would be wonderful if Dominion Online allowed for rated formats where you only play with the latest expansion (or some other officially-chosen subset, like a "standard" rotation). Similar to what other popular card games have done after they have been around for a while and keep releasing new cards (e.g. Magic: The Gathering and Hearthstone).

Personally I'm finally starting to be familiar with all the cards in the Silver subscription, but I'd rather skip learning all of the rules quirks and strategy subtleties in Adventurers, Empires, and Nocturne, and just jump directly to Renaissance. The rules of Dominion are just getting more complicated with each new expansion. Playing in person encourages only buying or playing with a couple of expansions at once, which works very well, but playing online requires playing with every card ever printed (at least, if you want to play competitively and/or in the official tournaments).
« Last Edit: August 19, 2018, 12:41:32 pm by ospond »
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dbclick

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Re: Dominion: Renaissance on RGG's website
« Reply #113 on: August 20, 2018, 04:18:19 pm »
+1

With so many Dominion expansions now (13 including base set), it would be wonderful if Dominion Online allowed for rated formats where you only play with the latest expansion (or some other officially-chosen subset, like a "standard" rotation). Similar to what other popular card games have done after they have been around for a while and keep releasing new cards (e.g. Magic: The Gathering and Hearthstone).

Personally I'm finally starting to be familiar with all the cards in the Silver subscription, but I'd rather skip learning all of the rules quirks and strategy subtleties in Adventurers, Empires, and Nocturne, and just jump directly to Renaissance. The rules of Dominion are just getting more complicated with each new expansion. Playing in person encourages only buying or playing with a couple of expansions at once, which works very well, but playing online requires playing with every card ever printed (at least, if you want to play competitively and/or in the official tournaments).

You can just use the Familiar Cards settings in Dominon Online to just play with the cards you want. Mark everything but Adventures, Empires, and Nocturne as familiar and set it so you won't play with any unfamiliar cards. Should solve your problem, except for subscribing to sets individually if Renaissance isn't included in the Silver subscription.

Dominion is so much smaller than Magic: the Gathering (or other CCGs). Even the current "Standard" rotation from Magic includes like 2000 cards (from a history of tens of thousands of cards). All of Dominion 2nd Edition, as of Renaissance, will include 322 Kingdom cards, 34 Events, 21 Landmarks, and most likely no more than a total of 23 Artifacts and Projects. That's only a small fraction of the complexity. Also, Dominion cards tend to not completely exhaust a design space so there is plenty of room to interact with older cards in interesting ways.

I'm not seeing the great need for an additional format in Dominion Online that doesn't include some of the cards, especially since you can mostly do that with Familiar Cards settings. I wouldn't mind seeing a "2 sets, 5 cards from each" format or setting, though.

Just my 2 cents.
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LastFootnote

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Re: Dominion: Renaissance on RGG's website
« Reply #114 on: August 20, 2018, 05:06:37 pm »
+7

You can just use the Familiar Cards settings in Dominon Online to just play with the cards you want. Mark everything but Adventures, Empires, and Nocturne as familiar and set it so you won't play with any unfamiliar cards. Should solve your problem, except for subscribing to sets individually if Renaissance isn't included in the Silver subscription.

Rated games do not respect your "familiar cards" settings, though this could work for unrated games.

I wouldn't mind seeing a "2 sets, 5 cards from each" format or setting, though.

I would also love to see this mode happen.
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Re: Dominion: Renaissance on RGG's website
« Reply #115 on: August 21, 2018, 12:04:51 am »
+1

All of Dominion 2nd Edition, as of Renaissance, will include 322 Kingdom cards, 34 Events, 21 Landmarks, and most likely no more than a total of 23 Artifacts and Projects.

Well, there are also 5 Ruins, 3 Shelters, 7 Heirlooms, 29 Boons/Hexes/States, and 24 other non-Kingdom cards. Including the 6 split piles and the extra 9 Knights and 7 Castles, there are 467 unique cards in 2nd edition Dominion (not counting base Treasures and Victory cards) - plus Artifacts/Projects.

ackmondual

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Re: Dominion: Renaissance on RGG's website
« Reply #116 on: August 22, 2018, 10:07:37 pm »
+1

Personally, I think it would save a lot of card space if Possession just said "Possess the player to your left" and then have the rulebook explain what "possess" means.
I always imagine "continued on next card."

The move with things as complex as Possession is of course to *not do them.*
Heh... in order to play a Possession, you need both "part 1" and "part 2" of those cards.  Gameplay-wise, even if you memorized the text on both ;)
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King Leon

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Re: Dominion: Renaissance on RGG's website
« Reply #117 on: August 25, 2018, 04:30:43 am »
0

Personally, I think it would save a lot of card space if Possession just said "Possess the player to your left" and then have the rulebook explain what "possess" means.
I always imagine "continued on next card."

The move with things as complex as Possession is of course to *not do them.*
Heh... in order to play a Possession, you need both "part 1" and "part 2" of those cards.  Gameplay-wise, even if you memorized the text on both ;)

Interesting concept. I am just thinking about Treasure Map or Sauna/Avanto like cards, where you need two different cards for the effect.
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Re: Dominion: Renaissance on RGG's website
« Reply #118 on: August 25, 2018, 09:19:35 am »
0

Personally, I think it would save a lot of card space if Possession just said "Possess the player to your left" and then have the rulebook explain what "possess" means.
I always imagine "continued on next card."

The move with things as complex as Possession is of course to *not do them.*
Heh... in order to play a Possession, you need both "part 1" and "part 2" of those cards.  Gameplay-wise, even if you memorized the text on both ;)

Interesting concept. I am just thinking about Treasure Map or Sauna/Avanto like cards, where you need two different cards for the effect.

Sounds like LEGEND cards from the Pokemon TCG. I think it'd be a very annoying and luck-based mechanic in Dominion though. Some dislike Urchin, Treasure Map, and Sauna/Avanto enough already. 
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Re: Dominion: Renaissance on RGG's website
« Reply #119 on: August 25, 2018, 09:52:13 am »
0

Very exciting stuff....

Also, we gonna need a bigger box
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King Leon

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Re: Dominion: Renaissance on RGG's website
« Reply #120 on: August 26, 2018, 08:04:44 am »
0

Personally, I think it would save a lot of card space if Possession just said "Possess the player to your left" and then have the rulebook explain what "possess" means.
I always imagine "continued on next card."

The move with things as complex as Possession is of course to *not do them.*
Heh... in order to play a Possession, you need both "part 1" and "part 2" of those cards.  Gameplay-wise, even if you memorized the text on both ;)

Interesting concept. I am just thinking about Treasure Map or Sauna/Avanto like cards, where you need two different cards for the effect.

Sounds like LEGEND cards from the Pokemon TCG. I think it'd be a very annoying and luck-based mechanic in Dominion though. Some dislike Urchin, Treasure Map, and Sauna/Avanto enough already.

Each Stage 1 Pokémon in the TCG works like that. You first need the Basic Pokémon in order to evolve it, not talking about Stage 2 Pokémon cards.
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LostPhoenix

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Re: Dominion: Renaissance on RGG's website
« Reply #121 on: August 26, 2018, 09:12:51 am »
0

Personally, I think it would save a lot of card space if Possession just said "Possess the player to your left" and then have the rulebook explain what "possess" means.
I always imagine "continued on next card."

The move with things as complex as Possession is of course to *not do them.*
Heh... in order to play a Possession, you need both "part 1" and "part 2" of those cards.  Gameplay-wise, even if you memorized the text on both ;)

Interesting concept. I am just thinking about Treasure Map or Sauna/Avanto like cards, where you need two different cards for the effect.

Sounds like LEGEND cards from the Pokemon TCG. I think it'd be a very annoying and luck-based mechanic in Dominion though. Some dislike Urchin, Treasure Map, and Sauna/Avanto enough already.

Each Stage 1 Pokémon in the TCG works like that. You first need the Basic Pokémon in order to evolve it, not talking about Stage 2 Pokémon cards.

True, but the difference is that you can still use Basic Pokémon on their own, while you can't use either piece of LEGEND without the other.
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Honkeyfresh

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Re: Dominion: Renaissance on RGG's website
« Reply #122 on: August 29, 2018, 08:18:44 pm »
0

Just a thought (roughly speaking):

Adventures = Seaside sequel
Empires = Prosperity sequel
Nocturne = Dark Ages sequel
Renaissance = Guilds Sequel (looks like returning coin tokens Coffers)

And as we all know, Guilds was a Masterpiece (or 10).

I sure hope so b/c if so PLEASE ADD MORE BUYS.  Maybe even bys you can buy?  In my opinion buys are the one aspect of most kingdoms that is sorely lacking.  Plus it would flow thematically well...

We're expecting it to be out in early October; previews probably the last week of September.
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Re: Dominion: Renaissance on RGG's website
« Reply #123 on: August 29, 2018, 08:28:09 pm »
0

I’m secretly hoping that at some point they will release a rewording update pack.   Even in base and intrigue there were a few cards that got small rule changes by rewording the cards.  Maybe there are enough out of date (but not deprecated) cards now that there would be a market for an update pack to adddress those - including cards that need the coin token to coffers rework.
how many cards were reworded?
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Re: Dominion: Renaissance on RGG's website
« Reply #124 on: August 29, 2018, 09:23:18 pm »
0

I’m secretly hoping that at some point they will release a rewording update pack.   Even in base and intrigue there were a few cards that got small rule changes by rewording the cards.  Maybe there are enough out of date (but not deprecated) cards now that there would be a market for an update pack to adddress those - including cards that need the coin token to coffers rework.
how many cards were reworded?

Many many were reworded, but just a few were reworded to alter the function of the card: Embargo, Masquerade, Mine, Moneylender, Outpost, Possession, Scheme, Stash, Throne Room and Trade Route. Possession was already changed via a ruling (in Empires rulebook), but then changed again in the printed 2nd edition card. In addition there are the Guilds cards that use "Coffers". I have more details in the document in my sig.
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