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Author Topic: M117: Emotions Mafia (Game over! Scum wins flawlessly.)  (Read 29776 times)

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gkrieg13

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Re: M117: Emotions Mafia (Day 1)
« Reply #350 on: August 13, 2018, 05:15:12 pm »

vote: Simon

So, uhm, why are you voting me?

Between you and galz, your wagon is townier.
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iguanaiguana

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Re: M117: Emotions Mafia (Day 1)
« Reply #351 on: August 13, 2018, 05:18:09 pm »

That's five votes for Galz, four for Simon?
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Simon Jester

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Re: M117: Emotions Mafia (Day 1)
« Reply #352 on: August 13, 2018, 05:18:39 pm »

vote: Simon

So, uhm, why are you voting me?

Between you and galz, your wagon is townier.

You will not think so tomorrow...
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Re: M117: Emotions Mafia (Day 1)
« Reply #353 on: August 13, 2018, 05:19:14 pm »

request vote count, please
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Skumpy

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Re: M117: Emotions Mafia (Day 1)
« Reply #354 on: August 13, 2018, 05:22:00 pm »

gkrieg's going to vote Simon because I'm not.

I don't know why you think I'm going to vote for Simon just because you aren't going to vote for him.

vote: Simon

So, uhm, why are you voting me?

Between you and galz, your wagon is townier.

...am I crazy?



Also, gone 30 minutes before deadline. 99% won't be back in time.
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Galzria

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Re: M117: Emotions Mafia (Day 1)
« Reply #355 on: August 13, 2018, 05:22:25 pm »

I apologize to one and all for my late foray into this whole D1 thing - and being this close to deadline. I honestly thought it was on Tuesday, not today, but I obviously haven't been paying much attention. That aside, it wouldn't have changed my tardiness here - real life and work have prevented me from being as present as I wished to be... but alas, that isn't exactly anything new on my end.

To the meat of my Silver vote - and one that I honestly hope isn't too late for others to get on board with. I recognize in advance this isn't the "best case ever built" - but I DO think that it's more indicative of a scum alignment than most D1 cases - that is, it isn't focused solely on "Well, this person is a better D3 lynch than a D1 lynch", or "LALL", or "enter nonsense D1 scumslip here". The case is mostly based on a series of things that I feel like have been designed to dictate the way D1 has gone - that is, SS has tried to control the conversation D1, which is far easier and more likely to come from a source of knowledge (scum), rather than from a source of uncertainty (town):

-
Okay everyone, I am giving Skump a hard D1 pass for no reason other than that he had the boldness to ask.

Iguana is his partner.

I like how you think.

You really shouldn't. could both of you say how serious your comments were?

This was a small, early thing, that I responded to (my response probably came across harsher than I meant - I meant it more tongue in cheek), but what stood out to me then was that SS, as a third party to Gkrieg and I, would feel the need to attempt to dictate how we read a situation. It was more than just a "I disagree with what you think" though, it was "You shouldn't think that" - it's an attempt to dictate and control.

-
That's a stupid vote. My instinct is to vote you in return but I don't think it actually makes you scummy.

This was in response to Simon voting for Space. This was the point in time that I began to scum read SS for this particular style of play. He didn't argue anything about the case that Simon made... he simply tried to dictate what/how Simon should read the game.

-
Ok, let's see where we are

iguana and skumpy are towny. Everyone else is null.

Not too great. We still have some time but not too much.

Maybe I could go for galz. I don't like the total dismissiveness of the scumslip. What if it actually was a scumslip?

Actually, that possibility sort of negates the towniness of skumpy and puts him closer to null. But I'm not voting for him anyway so it doesn't really matter.

This was followed by an immediate vote for me - now, there are certainly reasons to vote me, but this reason isn't one - first, it wasn't a scumslip - that doesn't mean the involved parties aren't scum, it just means that the "scumslip" wasn't one. Second, I was hardly the only person to very quickly state the above opinion. And third, well, I'll circle back because it's kinda my second thing about SS that I've found scummy. The last point here is how SS has tried to control the way the thread viewed the "scumslip". It's a subtle progression from "probably not one" and ends with him essentially calling it a real thing... except this should cause him to vote Skumpy... right? Except... he doesn't? And doesn't even really scum read Skumpy for a scumslip that he's saying is a thing... Here, watch:

-
This doesn't seem like one to me either, but I wouldn't disount it completely.
Maybe I could go for galz. I don't like the total dismissiveness of the scumslip. What if it actually was a scumslip?
skumpy is no longer towny since they just admitted to have planed the deal thing before the game started. Now slightly scummy for the scumslip.

And this actually leads in to my second thing about SS's play - he's been very good at pushing town in one direction while not involving himself, or pushing a town narrative while keeping undertones of "but don't rule scum out here!"... that is, he's saying one thing, while coming across as meaning the opposite - in a way that just feels manipulative to me.

-
hello.

iguana is the only one making sense so far.
Okay everyone, I am giving Skump a hard D1 pass for no reason other than that he had the boldness to ask.

I concur. I won't actually do the agreement with skumpy, though.

"I agree with Iguana for supporting Skumpy here, but I won't support Skumpy here"

-
Simon seems so scummy to me that I'm beginning to think it's not an alignment think but a tone thing.

"Dude over here is scummy... but you didn't hear it from me!"

-
I super duper strongly disagree that only scum cares about scumslips. I think town cares more about scumslips, generally.

This doesn't seem like one to me either, but I wouldn't disount it completely.

"This probably isn't a scumslip... but it could be!"

-
That's a stupid vote. My instinct is to vote you in return but I don't think it actually makes you scummy.

"You deserve to be voted for your post... but I don't wanna be the one to do it!"

-
ok. vote: EFHW is as good as any.

I can't remember any game in which she was lynched early. Let's see what some day1 pressure does.

"Let's get and EFHW wagon going!..."

-
Also unvote I don't like the EFHW wagon. It has basically no justification and picked up too quickly.

The people who jumped on it are where I would look for scum now. Ironically, that's iguana. But then he changed. The others are raptor and simon.

vote: simon

"That was a scummy wagon on EFHW. I need to make sure to spin this to other people before it comes back to me for jumping on it with Iguana"

-
Vote: silver given the closeness of deadline.
Why not TA or simon? They're both much more likely to be scum.

And this is just confirmation bias, but this just feels much more likely to be a scum response than a town response.

And that's pretty much it. If you look over his vote history, he's been all over the map, and making changes quickly and often without reason, which has felt like he's trying to spread suspicion around as much as possible and keep as many doors open as he can. Overall, his play D1 has just come across as manipulative - like he wants to be in control of how people are thinking and voting. He's seemed to have his opinions set, and has come across as wanting to sow distrust wherever possible.

Just my 2 cents.
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Quote from: Voltgloss
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Mafia Record:
TOWN Wins: M3, M5, M6, M11, M17, M28, M32, M105, M108, M114, M118, M120, M122, DM1, DoM1, OZ2, RM45, RM47, RM48, RM49, RM55
TOWN Losses: M4, M7, M8, M9, M13, M14, M18, M31, M110, M111, M113, M117, M125, RM3, RM4, RM54
SCUM Wins: M2, M19, M23, M100, DM3, RM1, RM2, RM48, RM50
SCUM Losses: M15 (SK), M102 (Tr), OZ1, RM55

Total Wins: 30
Total Losses: 20

Skumpy

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Re: M117: Emotions Mafia (Day 1)
« Reply #356 on: August 13, 2018, 05:23:01 pm »

That's five votes for Galz, four for Simon?

Think so. 5-5 if you count Galz, who's not here. PPE: Never mind. Let's read now!

Looks like EFHW's making the call.
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iguanaiguana

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Re: M117: Emotions Mafia (Day 1)
« Reply #357 on: August 13, 2018, 05:23:33 pm »

gkrieg's going to vote Simon because I'm not.

I don't know why you think I'm going to vote for Simon just because you aren't going to vote for him.

vote: Simon

So, uhm, why are you voting me?

Between you and galz, your wagon is townier.

...am I crazy?



Also, gone 30 minutes before deadline. 99% won't be back in time.

I mean, yeah, I saw that; it's a little funny. But saying someone is going to do something for X reason before they have themselves decided what they are going to do is arrogant in a not-so-nice way so I think his response was totally justified.
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iguanaiguana

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Re: M117: Emotions Mafia (Day 1)
« Reply #358 on: August 13, 2018, 05:30:44 pm »


[snip]

Just my 2 cents.

Ugh that's an awfully big two cents to throw out like 2 hours from the deadline :/ now I have to think about it
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iguanaiguana

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Re: M117: Emotions Mafia (Day 1)
« Reply #359 on: August 13, 2018, 05:32:43 pm »

Here's where I'm at:

Would vote Simon

Would vote silver

Would vote Galz

Would I vote just about ANYONE?

Not telling.
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Galzria

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Re: M117: Emotions Mafia (Day 1)
« Reply #360 on: August 13, 2018, 05:33:22 pm »


[snip]

Just my 2 cents.

Ugh that's an awfully big two cents to throw out like 2 hours from the deadline :/ now I have to think about it

If it's too late, it's too late. That's my bad. But I posted it when I had the time to do so - it's out there before D1 ends, and if I end up lynched, or killed at night, or whatever, at least it's posted.
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Quote from: Voltgloss
Derphammering is when quickhammers go derp.


Mafia Record:
TOWN Wins: M3, M5, M6, M11, M17, M28, M32, M105, M108, M114, M118, M120, M122, DM1, DoM1, OZ2, RM45, RM47, RM48, RM49, RM55
TOWN Losses: M4, M7, M8, M9, M13, M14, M18, M31, M110, M111, M113, M117, M125, RM3, RM4, RM54
SCUM Wins: M2, M19, M23, M100, DM3, RM1, RM2, RM48, RM50
SCUM Losses: M15 (SK), M102 (Tr), OZ1, RM55

Total Wins: 30
Total Losses: 20

iguanaiguana

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Re: M117: Emotions Mafia (Day 1)
« Reply #361 on: August 13, 2018, 05:35:19 pm »

 I mean, my thing just showed EIGHT people viewing this thread, maybe some are spectators but presumably it's not too late for anything. If you have an opinion on Galz's post, please just share it and don't assume it's irrelevant because "X lynch is never going to happen before the deadline."
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Skumpy

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Re: M117: Emotions Mafia (Day 1)
« Reply #362 on: August 13, 2018, 05:39:23 pm »

gkrieg's going to vote Simon because I'm not.

I don't know why you think I'm going to vote for Simon just because you aren't going to vote for him.

vote: Simon

So, uhm, why are you voting me?

Between you and galz, your wagon is townier.

...am I crazy?



Also, gone 30 minutes before deadline. 99% won't be back in time.

I mean, yeah, I saw that; it's a little funny. But saying someone is going to do something for X reason before they have themselves decided what they are going to do is arrogant in a not-so-nice way so I think his response was totally justified.

Was I that arrogant? I'm sorry if I was, but I was playing out the scenario I expected, and I didn't expect to see him voting where I was.

On Galz's post on ss not voting for me: It's called a coalition. I'm glad it's done well for me. Not sure why the scumslip discussion makes you focused on why ss isn't voting for me, as opposed to not voting for Simon.

Despite all that, where you pull out like 15 pieces of evidence, I'm still lost as to why you continue to ignore the most interesting post of all:

you know what, you're right! I didn't think this far.

Ok, skumpy, how about we don't vote for each other until day 3?
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Re: M117: Emotions Mafia (Day 1)
« Reply #363 on: August 13, 2018, 05:40:15 pm »

I'm around now, and just caught up. Give me a couple more minutes and I'll have an auto-vote-count.
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Re: M117: Emotions Mafia (Day 1)
« Reply #364 on: August 13, 2018, 05:41:21 pm »


I like this case/compilation. I have observed the same thing, but to much extent just thought of it as silvers playstile. Being a bit aggressive and harsch and that it isn't alignment-indecative, but seeing at collected like this it's a bit damning. I mean, I can take that he calls my vote stupid and don't engage in the scumslip- discussion but he has apparently done similar things all day here.

I don't care if I become the lynch because of it, I don't want to lynch Galz now. vote: silver

(Have I voted everyone except II now?)
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Re: M117: Emotions Mafia (Day 1)
« Reply #365 on: August 13, 2018, 05:45:28 pm »

Space Count as of #364
silverspawn (2): Galzria, Simon Jester
EFHW (1): Xxraptorslayer96
Simon Jester (4): silverspawn, SpaceAnemone, DatSwan, gkrieg13
TwistedArcher (1): EFHW
Galzria (4): Robz888, iguanaiguana, Skumpy, TwistedArcher
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Re: M117: Emotions Mafia (Day 1)
« Reply #366 on: August 13, 2018, 05:46:04 pm »

vote: silver, but for defensiveness more than bossiness.

I'm here until deadline.
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Re: M117: Emotions Mafia (Day 1)
« Reply #367 on: August 13, 2018, 05:46:33 pm »

(Have I voted everyone except II now?)

I believe you're still missing silver and yourself.


Everyone's history of who they've voted for so far in D1:
Simon Jester (9): Robz888, Galzria, Skumpy, DatSwan, SpaceAnemone, EFHW, TwistedArcher, silverspawn, Xxraptorslayer96
Robz888 (5): Simon Jester, Galzria, Skumpy, TwistedArcher, Xxraptorslayer96
IguanaIguana (5): Simon Jester, Galzria, EFHW, silverspawn, Xxraptorslayer96
silverspawn (4): Simon Jester, Galzria, EFHW, Xxraptorslayer96
EFHW (3): SpaceAnemone, TwistedArcher, silverspawn
TwistedArcher (3): Simon Jester, Galzria, EFHW
Skumpy (2): Galzria, TwistedArcher
SpaceAnemone (2): Simon Jester, silverspawn
gkrieg (2): Simon Jester, Skumpy
Xxraptorslayer96 (2): Simon Jester, EFHW
Galzria (1): silverspawn
DatSwan (1): Simon Jester
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Town games: M84(L), M85(W), M86(L), M87(W), M88(L), M90(L), M92(W), M94(L), M97(L), M99(W), M100(L), M104(W), M107(W), M110(L), M112(L), RMM37(L), RMM40(D), RMM41(L), RMM43(L), RMM47(W), ZM23(W).
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Re: M117: Emotions Mafia (Day 1)
« Reply #368 on: August 13, 2018, 05:46:59 pm »

gkrieg's going to vote Simon because I'm not.

I don't know why you think I'm going to vote for Simon just because you aren't going to vote for him.

vote: Simon

So, uhm, why are you voting me?

Between you and galz, your wagon is townier.

...am I crazy?



Also, gone 30 minutes before deadline. 99% won't be back in time.

I mean, yeah, I saw that; it's a little funny. But saying someone is going to do something for X reason before they have themselves decided what they are going to do is arrogant in a not-so-nice way so I think his response was totally justified.

Was I that arrogant? I'm sorry if I was, but I was playing out the scenario I expected, and I didn't expect to see him voting where I was.

On Galz's post on ss not voting for me: It's called a coalition. I'm glad it's done well for me. Not sure why the scumslip discussion makes you focused on why ss isn't voting for me, as opposed to not voting for Simon.

Despite all that, where you pull out like 15 pieces of evidence, I'm still lost as to why you continue to ignore the most interesting post of all:

you know what, you're right! I didn't think this far.

Ok, skumpy, how about we don't vote for each other until day 3?

It matters because there is no "coalition" in the game that should keep one player from voting for another if the first honestly believes that the second SCUMslipped - that is, gave something away that was evidence of being scum - which is what SS ended on with "slightly scummy for the scumslip" - it's either a thing, or it isn't - he's saying that, yes, in fact, the scumslip IS a thing - but he's using your "coalition" to avoid voting for you over it - he's pushing a scum narrative on you without taking responsibility, something he's done a lot of.
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Quote from: Voltgloss
Derphammering is when quickhammers go derp.


Mafia Record:
TOWN Wins: M3, M5, M6, M11, M17, M28, M32, M105, M108, M114, M118, M120, M122, DM1, DoM1, OZ2, RM45, RM47, RM48, RM49, RM55
TOWN Losses: M4, M7, M8, M9, M13, M14, M18, M31, M110, M111, M113, M117, M125, RM3, RM4, RM54
SCUM Wins: M2, M19, M23, M100, DM3, RM1, RM2, RM48, RM50
SCUM Losses: M15 (SK), M102 (Tr), OZ1, RM55

Total Wins: 30
Total Losses: 20

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Re: M117: Emotions Mafia (Day 1)
« Reply #369 on: August 13, 2018, 05:48:10 pm »

Here until deadline as well btw
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Quote from: Voltgloss
Derphammering is when quickhammers go derp.


Mafia Record:
TOWN Wins: M3, M5, M6, M11, M17, M28, M32, M105, M108, M114, M118, M120, M122, DM1, DoM1, OZ2, RM45, RM47, RM48, RM49, RM55
TOWN Losses: M4, M7, M8, M9, M13, M14, M18, M31, M110, M111, M113, M117, M125, RM3, RM4, RM54
SCUM Wins: M2, M19, M23, M100, DM3, RM1, RM2, RM48, RM50
SCUM Losses: M15 (SK), M102 (Tr), OZ1, RM55

Total Wins: 30
Total Losses: 20

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Re: M117: Emotions Mafia (Day 1)
« Reply #370 on: August 13, 2018, 05:52:34 pm »

What do you feel?

Vote Count 1.10


silverspawn (3): Galzria, Simon Jester, EFHW
EFHW (1): Xxraptorslayer96
Simon Jester (4): silverspawn, SpaceAnemone, DatSwan, gkrieg13
Galzria (4): Robz888, iguanaiguana, Skumpy, Twistedarcher

With 12 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.

Day 1 ends Monday, August 13th at 7 pm FT. That's in ~1 hour.
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Wins: 13, 10
Losses: 9, 5, 1
Draws: 1
MVPs: 4
Mod/Co-mod: 17

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Re: M117: Emotions Mafia (Day 1)
« Reply #371 on: August 13, 2018, 05:53:25 pm »

I don't buy some big pieces of Galz's case on silver. I think Galz is just not really reading silver's comments in as Bayesian a sense as I think silver means them.

For example, the fact that I could point out a very tenuous scumslip gives a very slightly higher likelihood of them being scum in town!silver's eyes than would the same situation if there wasn't even any super-tenuous evidence. That holds even if you think there's only a 0.01% chance of the language used having arisen because of scum-QT conversation. It really doesn't have to be an is-or-isn't thing for any of that reasoning to work, and silver can be pretty sure I'm nuts for my observation and still take it a tiny bit into account.

PPE 3
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Town games: M84(L), M85(W), M86(L), M87(W), M88(L), M90(L), M92(W), M94(L), M97(L), M99(W), M100(L), M104(W), M107(W), M110(L), M112(L), RMM37(L), RMM40(D), RMM41(L), RMM43(L), RMM47(W), ZM23(W).
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Re: M117: Emotions Mafia (Day 1)
« Reply #372 on: August 13, 2018, 05:54:00 pm »

It matters because there is no "coalition" in the game that should keep one player from voting for another if the first honestly believes that the second SCUMslipped - that is, gave something away that was evidence of being scum - which is what SS ended on with "slightly scummy for the scumslip" - it's either a thing, or it isn't - he's saying that, yes, in fact, the scumslip IS a thing - but he's using your "coalition" to avoid voting for you over it - he's pushing a scum narrative on you without taking responsibility, something he's done a lot of.

Except my scumslip would've implicated Simon as well. So if ss truly thought it was a scumslip, he would say something like "Scumslip there, but since I can't vote Skumpy, I'll vote Simon". This is exactly what I did in the post where I voted TA, except it was on something more arbitrary than a scumslip.
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He is (and take this in a positive light Skumpy) eccentric, flamboyant and excessive at times. His posts are ones that cause people to look at him and say "huh?"

Twistedarcher

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Re: M117: Emotions Mafia (Day 1)
« Reply #373 on: August 13, 2018, 05:56:43 pm »

I don't love the silver case at all. In my eyes, it's a bunch of stuff that doesn't necessarily strike me as scummy. It's not necessarily towny, either, but it really reads like Galz is trying to paint every single post by silver as scummy to meet his conclusion. It doesn't read genuine at all.

If Galz is town, he has no idea what silver is. In his case, he reads basically every single post by silver in the worst possible light. This reads like someone trying to move to paint someone as scummy, and letting the conclusion lead the evidence, rather than the other way around.

Also, let's look at this vote count:

What do you feel?

Vote Count 1.10


silverspawn (3): Galzria, Simon Jester, EFHW
EFHW (1): Xxraptorslayer96
Simon Jester (4): silverspawn, SpaceAnemone, DatSwan, gkrieg13
Galzria (4): Robz888, iguanaiguana, Skumpy, Twistedarcher

With 12 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.

Day 1 ends Monday, August 13th at 7 pm FT. That's in ~1 hour.


Simon and Galzria, the two main lynch candidates up until the silver case, aren't voting for each other! They're both moving to get a third wagon going.

I'm fine with either Simon or Galzria, and I prefer Galz. That case on silver just reads so incredibly disingenous to me.
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Twistedarcher

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Re: M117: Emotions Mafia (Day 1)
« Reply #374 on: August 13, 2018, 05:58:54 pm »

Really, it's so incredibly odd for Galzria and Simon to not be voting for each other. If I'm town, D1 I'm voting for ANYONE if they're the alternate wagon. I don't care how big a town read I have on them, it's D1 and it's a shot in the dark. The fact that Galz and Simon are the two largest wagons, and are both voting for a third wagon, silver, rather than for each other, is setting off enormous alarms in my head.

Silver has shot way up on my town list as a result of this
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