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Author Topic: Minimum Possible Points (without Wall)  (Read 507 times)

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jupiter

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Minimum Possible Points (without Wall)
« on: July 30, 2018, 02:14:56 pm »
+3

Edited based off of comments

What's the least number of points you can get in a game without Wall?
  • Let's not have Black Market as it would make Wolf Den overpower everything.
  • Tiebreaker will be number of turns needed.

For example, if Wolf Den and Bandit Fort are the two Landmarks and you buy all of the Knights, Silver, and Gold to three pile, you'll have 7 Copper, 40 Silver, 30 Gold, 10 Knights, and 3 Estates , so 3 + 2 + -30 + -140 = -165 VP, which is far from the smallest you can get.

Bonus Challenge: What's the least amount of points you can get and win?
« Last Edit: July 31, 2018, 10:49:47 am by jupiter »
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GendoIkari

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Re: Minimum Possible Points
« Reply #1 on: July 30, 2018, 11:32:01 pm »
+2

In regards to bullet point #3; there are many known ways to empty the supply without 3-piling on an earlier turn; so I don't necessarily think it should have to be described in detail.

Likely, the answer to this puzzle will end up being the same as the "most number of cards you can have in your deck" puzzle; with Bandit Fort and Wall (and also Wolf Den with Tournament if allowing a third landmark).
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Screwyioux

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Re: Minimum Possible Points
« Reply #2 on: July 31, 2018, 09:53:42 am »
+2

Yeah if you want to make this interesting, I think you need to ban Wall and make it "most negative Wolf Den/Bandit Fort score." You can just specify those two landmarks (and only those two) and ban Black Market. Constructing a kingdom from there to get the lowest possible score is an interesting puzzle.
Otherwise, as Gendo said, the solution lies in shoving as many cards in the deck as possible.
« Last Edit: July 31, 2018, 09:55:14 am by Screwyioux »
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jupiter

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Re: Minimum Possible Points (without Wall)
« Reply #3 on: July 31, 2018, 11:24:14 am »
0

I was curious what the least possible points total was, but keeping Wall out makes the challenge actually interesting.
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Screwyioux

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Re: Minimum Possible Points (without Wall)
« Reply #4 on: July 31, 2018, 11:58:07 am »
+1

I was curious what the least possible points total was, but keeping Wall out makes the challenge actually interesting.

Someone in our Discord (Avorian, shoutout) came up with this. Given the Wall ban, if you replace Sauna with Marauder, this is most likely optimal, though I have not calculated the negative score possible (will be somewhat dependent on player count to determine curse pile and silver/gold supply, also  questionable whether or not you could add Platinum):

« Last Edit: July 31, 2018, 12:02:20 pm by Screwyioux »
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avorian

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Re: Minimum Possible Points (without Wall)
« Reply #5 on: July 31, 2018, 02:44:46 pm »
+4

I was curious what the least possible points total was, but keeping Wall out makes the challenge actually interesting.

Someone in our Discord (Avorian, shoutout) came up with this. Given the Wall ban, if you replace Sauna with Marauder, this is most likely optimal, though I have not calculated the negative score possible (will be somewhat dependent on player count to determine curse pile and silver/gold supply, also  questionable whether or not you could add Platinum):


To show my work: the strategy is to drain golds/silvers and then end game by piling knights/golds/silvers/curses somewhere down the road. Young witch is basically a free slot so of course you include it. Shelters and platinum likewise. From there we get into maximising number of uniques coming from kingdom.

The gold standard is producing >2 uniques in a kingdom pile. There are plenty of split-piles, heirloom piles, and piles with other set up to get at least two from every kingdom slot. So lets see who wins:

1. Knights produces a whopping 10 uniques with a 2vp downside from Josephine, so 9 + 1/3 effective uniques.
2. Marauder brings ruins and spoils into play for 7 uniques.
3. Tournament brings 6 uniques (note: trash province with anna)
4./5.  Peasant and page each bring 5 uniques.
6. Exorcist brings 4 uniques (note that ghost is always brought by an unrecoverable treasure and you cant waste a slot on masq, and the kingdom pile with it is only 1/3 of a unique effectively)
7. Leprechaun brings 2 uniques (wish, again otherwise have to trash something unrecoverable) and can give you twice miserable.
8./9. lurker and necromancer bring in 5 total uniques for an average of 2.5

As far as I can remember, no other card brings in more than 3 uniques not already covered (except castles, which counters itself with VP). So add in a 2 unique pile of choice.

In total the 10 cards from kingdom and associated setup gives 10 + 7 + 6 + 5 + 5 + 4 + 2 + 5 + 2= 46 uniques, and copper/estate/YW/shelters bring us to 52. So thats -156 points. Twice miserable, josephine and estate points bring it to -157.

Then you have -150 from all curses/golds/silvers (assuming 2 player).

So in summary I get -307 without plat, -310 with it.

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Kirian

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Re: Minimum Possible Points (without Wall)
« Reply #6 on: August 01, 2018, 11:52:36 pm »
0

6. Exorcist brings 4 uniques (note that ghost is always brought by an unrecoverable treasure and you cant waste a slot on masq, and the kingdom pile with it is only 1/3 of a unique effectively)

Why not get it from a Vampire instead?  You only need one of them.
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avorian

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Re: Minimum Possible Points (without Wall)
« Reply #7 on: August 03, 2018, 02:37:07 pm »
+1

6. Exorcist brings 4 uniques (note that ghost is always brought by an unrecoverable treasure and you cant waste a slot on masq, and the kingdom pile with it is only 1/3 of a unique effectively)

Why not get it from a Vampire instead?  You only need one of them.

I am unsure what you are asking? Vampires can neither gain ghosts, nor can it recover a haunted mirror from the trash, nor can it take a haunted mirror from the opponent. Vampire as a pile only adds two uniques to the count. That's an easy bar to hit with any number of piles.

My point was that you can only gain ghosts via exorcist or haunted mirror. Gaining one via exorcist also allows you access to two other unique piles: imp and will-o-wisp. With the exception of gaining will-o-wisps from cards with associated heirlooms (So fool and...? I think it might just be fool), no way of gaining those brings more than 2 piles to the table so exorcist is the most efficient way.

The other way of getting ghost is truly bad. You lose the treasure so there was no change in unique numbers. Or you include Masq as a pile which lowers the average uniques/pile. And even so the pile that brings that heirloom is a card worth 2vp so its effectively only 1/3 of a unique.
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Kirian

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Re: Minimum Possible Points (without Wall)
« Reply #8 on: August 04, 2018, 09:16:40 pm »
0

6. Exorcist brings 4 uniques (note that ghost is always brought by an unrecoverable treasure and you cant waste a slot on masq, and the kingdom pile with it is only 1/3 of a unique effectively)

Why not get it from a Vampire instead?  You only need one of them.

I am unsure what you are asking? Vampires can neither gain ghosts, nor can it recover a haunted mirror from the trash, nor can it take a haunted mirror from the opponent. Vampire as a pile only adds two uniques to the count. That's an easy bar to hit with any number of piles.

My point was that you can only gain ghosts via exorcist or haunted mirror. Gaining one via exorcist also allows you access to two other unique piles: imp and will-o-wisp. With the exception of gaining will-o-wisps from cards with associated heirlooms (So fool and...? I think it might just be fool), no way of gaining those brings more than 2 piles to the table so exorcist is the most efficient way.

The other way of getting ghost is truly bad. You lose the treasure so there was no change in unique numbers. Or you include Masq as a pile which lowers the average uniques/pile. And even so the pile that brings that heirloom is a card worth 2vp so its effectively only 1/3 of a unique.

Oh, I misunderstood what you were saying.  I thought you meant you'd need to trash a Gold to get a Ghost. (Most common Ghost play with Exorcist.)
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dpm

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Re: Minimum Possible Points (without Wall)
« Reply #9 on: November 24, 2018, 09:52:26 am »
0

...
7. Leprechaun brings 2 uniques (wish, again otherwise have to trash something unrecoverable) and can give you twice miserable.
8./9. lurker and necromancer bring in 5 total uniques for an average of 2.5

As far as I can remember, no other card brings in more than 3 uniques not already covered (except castles, which counters itself with VP). So add in a 2 unique pile of choice.
...

I just stumbled on this thread.  I think you're missing one possibility here: Replace Leprechaun and your last 2-unique pile with Vampire and Secret Cave.  Vampire gets you Bat and can give you twice miserable.  Secret Cave gives you Magic Lamp.  There's also a pile of Wishes.  That's one more unique. 

You are about to argue that you don't want to get a Wish by trashing the Lamp, since you can't get your Lamp back.  This is quite true.  Don't trash your Lamp.  However, your opponent can trash her Lamp and get Wishes, and then trash a Wish, which you can use Lurker to gain. 
« Last Edit: November 24, 2018, 09:56:00 am by dpm »
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