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Author Topic: Young Witch on a strong trashing board (and other questions)  (Read 4768 times)

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Duchess Ninja

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Young Witch on a strong trashing board (and other questions)
« on: March 02, 2012, 11:50:13 am »
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The kingdom: Pearl Diver, Moat, Native Village, Develop, Lookout, Jack of All Trades, Remodel, Young Witch, Bureaucrat, Forge, Secret Chamber (Bane card).

I've played this kingdom on Adrominion a few times now, and I've yet to find a good strategy. It's not that I don't win (against the AI it's trivial), it's that I can't find a solid strategy that would be strong against human opponents. I picked this particular kingdom because it is interesting and this kind of kingdom has come up fairly often: it has a curser (Young Witch) but also ridiculous trashing (5 cards!). The only +2 action is Native Village and the only cards to help that is Pearl Diver and Lookout, which are weak combos, imo. Other than that, I can see no obvious strong plays (maybe Forging Silvers into Gold/Provs, but nothing explosive). I'm interested in the answers to the following questions. These are assuming a 3-4 player game (I rarely play heads-up, on isotropic or live), although insight into 2-player is welcome.

1. Given the strong trashing, is it worth it to grab an opening Witch and join that battle?
2. If not, Jack is an obvious first $4 buy (to me). Is my $3 then a Lookout or Silver?
3. Is it worth it to grab a Secret Chamber early given that it has some use discarding (especially with curses), and it negates YW? (I'm leaning towards yes if I don't buy a YW, and I can always Forge it later.)
4. Is it ever worth it to Native Village a Curse just to thin your deck? In this case, I think not with all of the trashing, but what if Jack or Develop were the only trasher?
5. I generally ignore Bureaucrat (buying one or the attack against me). Is this wise in 3+ player?
6. Is it worth it to buy a single Develop late to change a Forge into Gold/Prov?

Thanks in advance!
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Robz888

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Re: Young Witch on a strong trashing board (and other questions)
« Reply #1 on: March 02, 2012, 11:59:04 am »
+1

Unfortunately, the answer here is Double Jack. I have a hunch that there's nothing fast enough to beat it.

Step 1: Open Jack/Silver. Step 2: Buy another Jack. Step 3: Use it to trash Curses and Estates. Step 4: Win on about Turn 15 or so.

Don't bother buying anything else but Silvers and Gold. Most other cards just slow down Jack's effectiveness buy colliding with it. I suppose you could pick up a Young Witch of your own if enough of your opponents don't buy Jacks, but it probably isn't worthwhile.
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Robz888

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Re: Young Witch on a strong trashing board (and other questions)
« Reply #2 on: March 02, 2012, 12:07:27 pm »
+2

The kingdom: Pearl Diver, Moat, Native Village, Develop, Lookout, Jack of All Trades, Remodel, Young Witch, Bureaucrat, Forge, Secret Chamber (Bane card).

1. Given the strong trashing, is it worth it to grab an opening Witch and join that battle?

Nope. Double Jack crushes cursers.

2. If not, Jack is an obvious first $4 buy (to me). Is my $3 then a Lookout or Silver?

Probably a Silver. Actually, Jack/Lookout is probably good, too. Lookout can get some Coppers, and later you can feed it to the Jack.

3. Is it worth it to grab a Secret Chamber early given that it has some use discarding (especially with curses), and it negates YW? (I'm leaning towards yes if I don't buy a YW, and I can always Forge it later.)

Nope. Secret Chamber is only useful if you have massive draw so you can discard lots of cards, and there's no draw here. As a Reaction it's totally useless, and Jack kills curses.

4. Is it ever worth it to Native Village a Curse just to thin your deck? In this case, I think not with all of the trashing, but what if Jack or Develop were the only trasher?

Jack is in a class by itself. Without Jack, the rest of these cards would very much struggle to handle all the curses and I would recommend a Young Witch/Lookout opening. Generally, the only cards that beat cursing are Jack, Masquerade, Ambassador... and Lighthouse is your best defense.

5. I generally ignore Bureaucrat (buying one or the attack against me). Is this wise in 3+ player?

Bureaucrat is probably better than its reputation suggests. In a slow kingdom, it's not a bad pickup. But here, I don't think you need it.

6. Is it worth it to buy a single Develop late to change a Forge into Gold/Prov?

That's an interesting idea, but probably not. I don't think there's any reason to go for Forge here. Besides which, it will be hard to get it early.
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petrie911

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Re: Young Witch on a strong trashing board (and other questions)
« Reply #3 on: March 02, 2012, 12:57:22 pm »
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I would say Trader does a decent job of beating Cursing.  You can replace Curses with Silvers, trash Curses that you draw with Trader, and flood your deck with Silver to dilute the Curses.
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Robz888

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Re: Young Witch on a strong trashing board (and other questions)
« Reply #4 on: March 02, 2012, 01:09:41 pm »
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Trader is an odd case, but I don't think it beats cursers on the level of Jack, Masq, and Ambassador. It's probably strongest against Mountebank... you can only give your opponent two Silvers so many times before you lose your mind. And the curses don't get destroyed, like they do with Watchtower, so you will get them eventually. But yeah, it's definitely worth picking up to mitigate cursing Attacks, I think, in the absence of these more powerful defenders.
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Robz888

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Re: Young Witch on a strong trashing board (and other questions)
« Reply #5 on: March 02, 2012, 01:10:04 pm »
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To be honest, Trader perplexes me. I don't think I play it very well.
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mischiefmaker

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Re: Young Witch on a strong trashing board (and other questions)
« Reply #6 on: March 02, 2012, 02:38:15 pm »
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Most other cards just slow down Jack's effectiveness buy colliding with it.
I'm fairly sure simulators have shown conclusively that this is not true. Cantrip +$, like Market, work great with Jack, and so do sifters.

I think many of us (myself included) got caught up in the simulator results and believed DoubleJack was the be-all. If I'm not mistaken the current consensus is that SingleJack + most cards you would buy if Jack were not on the board > DoubleJack. You just have to be a bit careful not to overload on terminals.

I suppose you could pick up a Young Witch of your own if enough of your opponents don't buy Jacks, but it probably isn't worthwhile.
For example, SingleJack + Young Witch defeats DoubleJack handily, 60-37.

In a 2p game, I'd open Jack/Lookout, use the lookout to trash copper, pick up a YW with my next $4, and play BM from there. I don't know if this is the absolute best strategy, but I'm reasonably certain it will be competitive against human opponents (you might skip the lookout and get silver; I don't know because the simulator doesn't know to trash copper over estates early).

In a 3p or more game, your strategy has to be more dependent on what your opponents do. If nobody gets a YW, then Jack/YW is going to be very strong. In a 4p game, if two opponents get YW, you probably want a lookout to go with that. If all three opponents load up on YW, I might go doublejack double lookout and just outrace my opponents to 5 provinces, picking up a Remodel in the late game to speed things up.

Some sim results to back me up:
2Jack v 2Jack v 2Jack v Jack/YW: 18/19/19/36; Jack/YW clear favorite here
Jack/YW v Jack/YW v Jack/YW v Jack/Lookout/YW: 22/22/22/27; Lookout/Jack/YW a bit slower to ramp up but produces consistently better $ through the late game due to trashed coppers
2YW v. Jack/YW v Jack/YW v 2Jack/2Lookout: 12/21/21/40: Everyone else too busy giving curses; Jack/Lookout the favorite.
 
Also, it's worth noting that while there are tons of trashing options on this board, they're mostly pretty bad. Develop is horrible for dealing with Curses (spend an action to trash a curse and play with a 3 card hand - yuck), and Forge is pretty bad here too since there's no way to increase handsize and it's expensive. Remodel is similarly weak since you don't shrink your deck and the $2s don't seem to fit well with the rest of the board. Trader is OK, especially in multiplayer, but it anti-synergizes with itself -- the more Curses you deflect for Silver, the less likely you are to have Trader in your hand in the future (same if you use Trader on non-Curse/Copper).
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Jorbles

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Re: Young Witch on a strong trashing board (and other questions)
« Reply #7 on: March 02, 2012, 02:59:58 pm »
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I'm not sold that Lookout is as great an enabler to DoubleJack as we seem to assume it is. If the Young Witch is ignored then Lookout/DoubleJack loses to DoubleJack 62/38 in the simulations that I ran on Dominiate anyways. My guess is that in addition to being a Silver ahead the whole game being a slight advantage I suspect the Coppers that get trashed by the Lookout actually help reduce variance in the end game. Here's the code I was using:
Code: [Select]
# Opens Jack/Lookout then plays DoubleJack
#
{
  name: 'Look2Jack'
  author: 'Jorbles'
  requires: ["Jack of All Trades", "Lookout"]
  gainPriority: (state, my) -> [
    "Province" if my.getTotalMoney() > 15
    "Duchy" if state.gainsToEndGame() <= 5
    "Estate" if state.gainsToEndGame() <= 2
    "Gold"
    "Jack of All Trades" if my.countInDeck("Jack of All Trades") < 2
    "Lookout" if state.countInSupply("Lookout") == 10
    "Silver"
  ]
}

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Duchess Ninja

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Re: Young Witch on a strong trashing board (and other questions)
« Reply #8 on: March 02, 2012, 03:10:37 pm »
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Thanks for the simulation runs - that is exactly the information I was looking for. After a few more games I've basically distilled it to Single Jack/Double Lookout with a couple of Pearl Divers (to set up both Jack and Lookout a little better) when I only have $2. Then trashing a Lookout when the Copper was gone. Double Jack is certainly better based on your sims.

Robz, I think you're right about Secret Chamber - it's just not strong enough here despite it also being the Bane card. Single Jack Double Lookout seems to get 4-5 Curses in a 3 player game, and a 1 Province advantage overcomes or ties the 5-6 you don't get. Throw in one more Duchy which I was consitently able to buy, and gg.

Does anyone have an answer to the Native Village a Curse question? Say the board only has Develop and you have a NV chain going getting all of your Victory Cards on the mat. Should you throw your Curses on the mat to thin your deck? Or just buy the crappy trasher and try to get rid of them? Or ignore them completely and try to draw through them?
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dondon151

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Re: Young Witch on a strong trashing board (and other questions)
« Reply #9 on: March 02, 2012, 03:15:12 pm »
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It's pretty hard to reliably set away your Curses on the NV mat... but generally, it's a better move to just remove them from your deck as soon as possible through some way or another rather than to leave them in your deck. Generally the -1 VP from a Curse is not a huge deal compared to it just not being a useful card in your deck.
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Re: Young Witch on a strong trashing board (and other questions)
« Reply #10 on: March 02, 2012, 04:06:16 pm »
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I'm not sold that Lookout is as great an enabler to DoubleJack as we seem to assume it is. If the Young Witch is ignored

I think Jack/Lookout was being discussed in the context not just of being against a Young Witch, but being in a 3p or 4p game where multiple opponents went for YW... I suspect Jack/lookout helps, because you want to kill off the curses ASAP, and you'll probably be getting 2-3 in your deck per reshuffle.
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mischiefmaker

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Re: Young Witch on a strong trashing board (and other questions)
« Reply #11 on: March 02, 2012, 04:22:42 pm »
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@Jorbles: Geronimoo's sim also has Lookout/Jack losing badly to Jack, but it doesn't know to prefer to trash Copper over Estate. Does Dominionate? I don't see any code in your posted snippet that would tell it to do so, but maybe that's built in to the sim.
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Duchess Ninja

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Re: Young Witch on a strong trashing board (and other questions)
« Reply #12 on: March 02, 2012, 04:25:27 pm »
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It's pretty hard to reliably set away your Curses on the NV mat... but generally, it's a better move to just remove them from your deck as soon as possible through some way or another rather than to leave them in your deck. Generally the -1 VP from a Curse is not a huge deal compared to it just not being a useful card in your deck.

I know it's not easy to do so reliably, but if you were playing Spy, Scout, etc... and could do so, is it worth it? It sounds like it is according to you, and I would probably agree, but I wanted to hear from a few more players who are better than me.
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Ozle

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Re: Young Witch on a strong trashing board (and other questions)
« Reply #13 on: March 02, 2012, 04:25:39 pm »
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This may be a stupid question, but why do you want to trash coppers over estates?
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Re: Young Witch on a strong trashing board (and other questions)
« Reply #14 on: March 02, 2012, 04:29:15 pm »
+1

This may be a stupid question, but why do you want to trash coppers over estates?
Because Jack can trash those estates.  It's likely better to delay the one turn that estate shows up and get rid of another copper. 
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Ozle

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Re: Young Witch on a strong trashing board (and other questions)
« Reply #15 on: March 02, 2012, 04:34:04 pm »
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Ahh duuh of course. Dont usually play with Hinterlands, forgot Jack only did non-treasure!
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mischiefmaker

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Re: Young Witch on a strong trashing board (and other questions)
« Reply #16 on: March 02, 2012, 06:25:56 pm »
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I know it's not easy to do so reliably, but if you were playing Spy, Scout, etc... and could do so, is it worth it? It sounds like it is according to you, and I would probably agree, but I wanted to hear from a few more players who are better than me.

I think the answer depends on how to interpret your question.

If you're asking, "Hey, I'm getting a bunch of Curses, is building a deck around Spy/Native Village to put them on my mat a good idea?" then I think the answer is pretty clearly no, that deck is too slow and too hard to set up and the potential payoff is pretty weak.

If you're asking, "Hey, I already have a deck with Spy and Native Village in it, and I happened to get a Curse, should I set it aside w/Native Village or get a trasher to deal with it?" I think in general the answer is probably not to get a weak trasher (and as Curse-trashers come it doesn't get much weaker than Develop). But then, why did you build a deck with a bunch of Spies and Native Villages in it anyway? What were you trying to do with those cards? As I said above, you don't want to build a Spy/Native Village deck just to deal with Curses, so either you're going to lose anyway, or you built that deck for some different purpose. What that purpose is, and the characteristics of the deck, determine the answer to your question.

It may be more helpful to consider an example. Let's say I'm building an Apothecary/Native Village deck, and there's a Develop on board. Ordinarily I wouldn't buy that, because it doesn't go with the rest of my deck. Now let's say my opponent manages to give me a Curse. Should I put it on my mat, get Develop to deal with it, or ignore it? I'd say the answer depends on the stage of the game and the nature of the Curse.

If:
 - early/mid-game, got Curse via Swindler/Jester/some other not very consistent Curse-giver: put it on mat along with Victory cards, since this is a minor speedbump and I will rely on my deck's superior speed to win the game.
 - early game, got Curse via consistent Curse-giver like Sea Hag or Ill-Gotten Gains: buy Develop, punch self in the face for picking a strategy that is going to fail hard against Curses, look for better strategy to transition into
 - mid game, consistent Curser: the only consistent Curser I can think of that wouldn't start giving Curses until the mid-game would be a multiple-Torturer engine, in which case I think I would probably get a Develop since a) there's a much better chance I get some shuffle where I only have $3, b) since the curse is in hand I'm much more likely to be able to draw Develop and use it on the Curse, and c) I need to make sure my deck doesn't get clogged by Curses before it gets going
 - late game: ignore and draw through, putting VP on mat as usual, since the game will be over soon

So...yeah, I guess what I'm trying to say here is, if you get the opportunity to put a Curse on your NV mat, and you know you don't ever want to pick up the NV mat, it's usually the right move to get it out of your deck. However, it's usually not the right move to build a deck that can consistently do this.
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Duchess Ninja

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Re: Young Witch on a strong trashing board (and other questions)
« Reply #17 on: March 05, 2012, 05:23:07 pm »
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Thanks for the insight mischiefmaker. Not thinking like that is why I'm not a great player yet, but this is the kind of advice I'll use to get better.
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Re: Young Witch on a strong trashing board (and other questions)
« Reply #18 on: March 05, 2012, 05:34:13 pm »
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@Jorbles: Geronimoo's sim also has Lookout/Jack losing badly to Jack, but it doesn't know to prefer to trash Copper over Estate. Does Dominionate? I don't see any code in your posted snippet that would tell it to do so, but maybe that's built in to the sim.

To the best of my knowledge no it does not, it may be customizable though. rspeer would be a better person to answer this question.
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