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Author Topic: What cards are less effective if you don't play them before the 2nd reshuffle?  (Read 1997 times)

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ackmondual

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So first reshuffle would typically be after turn #2

Chapel I recall is less effective.  It can be disrupting if a Fortune Teller forces you to discard this after the first reshuffle

I'd reckon many of the curser attacks like Sea Hag and Witch, but Familiar seemed to not be this way, despite requiring Potion, then after the 2nd reshuffle.
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faust

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Most cards? Like, everything that provides economy, trashes, curses, draws. Familiar is also way more effective if played before the second reshuffle, but you won't get a chance to do that very often.
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Aleimon Thimble

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Well, yeah, all of the Action/Treasure cards that you buy are better to have in your hand than Copper or Estate, barring edge cases. Therefore, it is pretty much always better to get them early rather than late.

However, the cards where the difference is biggest are the cards you usually want to open with. Trashers are top of the list, and since Chapel is the best trasher in the game (other than Donate but you don't have to worry about shuffles there), it is the ultimate the-earlier-the-better card. Other than trashers, junkers and gainers also tend to be amazing in the opening. Drawing and economy are not AS important as you can add them later on and still be fine, as long as your deck remains balanced (i.e. don't over- or undertrash).

All this assumes that there is a reasonable engine you can play with. If not, then trashers and gainers are not so great. Junkers remain amazing almost regardless of the board, and Silver/Gold gainers can be added to the list in a BM or slog strategy.
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Screwyioux

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Sentry and Count are MUCH worse at trashing if you get them after the second reshuffle (actually they're worse after the first, but they go off a cliff from there).

Vampire/Bat can be pretty bad to rely on for trashing if you can't get a Vamp and turn it into a bat by turn 5, but that card has other utilities so you tend not to care as much.

Jake of all Trades is also a good deal worse at trashing if you don't open with it, but the games you'd buy JOAT but not open with it are a rarity.
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Screwyioux

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Discard attacks deserve a special mention in the first 4 games turns vs the rest of the game, as playing Militia on your opponent before the second reshuffle makes them much less likely to hit $5 to buy whatever key card they're aiming for, or keeps them from trashing as many cards from hand.

This keeps being true throughout the game, but less so as their deck becomes proportionately less copper/junk.
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Commodore Chuckles

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Now I'm trying to think of a card that's better when it misses the first shuffle. Maybe an Herbalist you got just because you'll need the +Buy later? Humble Castle, if you decided you absolutely had to grab it before the other guy, maybe because of Keep?
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Chris is me

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There really isnít a card thatís better when it misses the first shuffle, because otherwise why would you have bought it if you didnít want it?
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samath

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Now I'm trying to think of a card that's better when it misses the first shuffle. Maybe an Herbalist you got just because you'll need the +Buy later? Humble Castle, if you decided you absolutely had to grab it before the other guy, maybe because of Keep?
There really isnít a card thatís better when it misses the first shuffle, because otherwise why would you have bought it if you didnít want it?

Cards that you need two of in order to do something are better if they can potentially find their partner on Turn 5. Like a single Urchin (say, on a 5/2). Or Fool's Gold.
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Commodore Chuckles

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There really isnít a card thatís better when it misses the first shuffle, because otherwise why would you have bought it if you didnít want it?

Both of the examples I gave were ones you'd prefer not be in your deck immediately but will help later on. If you don't want to blow a lot of $ on a stupid Herbalist, it's better to get it before you actually need it, though I admit opening with it might be suspect. Humble Castle is a better example: the effect of having it in your deck is something you rarely want, but payoff at the end might be worth it if you really want to nab it before the other guy (particularly if there's Keep.)
« Last Edit: July 23, 2018, 07:39:35 pm by Commodore Chuckles »
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Chris is me

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There really isnít a card thatís better when it misses the first shuffle, because otherwise why would you have bought it if you didnít want it?

Both of the examples I gave were ones you'd prefer not be in your deck immediately but will help later on. If you don't want to blow a lot of $ on a stupid Herbalist, it's better to get it before you actually need it, though I admit opening with it might be suspect. Humble Castle is a better example: the effect of having it in your deck is something you rarely want, but payoff at the end might be worth it if you really want to nab it before the other guy (particularly if there's Keep.)

Iíd rid yourself of the notion that itís better to spend less money on a card you need long before you need it than it is to spend more later. Thereís no shame in paying too much for an Herbalist, but there is shame in babying a dead card for three shuffles out of some misguided sense of efficiency.
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Chris is me

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Now I'm trying to think of a card that's better when it misses the first shuffle. Maybe an Herbalist you got just because you'll need the +Buy later? Humble Castle, if you decided you absolutely had to grab it before the other guy, maybe because of Keep?
There really isnít a card thatís better when it misses the first shuffle, because otherwise why would you have bought it if you didnít want it?

Cards that you need two of in order to do something are better if they can potentially find their partner on Turn 5. Like a single Urchin (say, on a 5/2). Or Fool's Gold.

I guess the low hanging fruit here would be if it was really important to open Treasure Map and try to get the second on T3, I guess.
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trivialknot

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Now I'm trying to think of a card that's better when it misses the first shuffle. Maybe an Herbalist you got just because you'll need the +Buy later? Humble Castle, if you decided you absolutely had to grab it before the other guy, maybe because of Keep?
Skulk.  Lurker, if you each got one.  The opening Mint.  Embargo, so you can first see what your opponent is doing.  Estate, which you bought to trash Hovel.  Curse!  Royal Blacksmith!
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DeepCyan

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Rats is actually a surprisingly brutal card to have miss the shuffle. If you canít have 2 rats in your deck by the third reshuffle, it massively delays both the time it takes for you to start trashing rats for benefit as well as massively reducing the effiency of turning your junk into more rats. Considering that rats strategies are generally reliant on quickly snowballing past that awkward phase of having a bunch of mostly rats and tfb cards, having your momentum halted for a few turns can be irreparably damaging, especially if thereís a power pile you wanna contest.
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ipofanes

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Cards that are rushed but don't do much for you at the beginning (effectively being a cantrip) are an example where it doesn't matter how early they reappear. Port in kingdoms with no other splitters comes to mind.
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Aleimon Thimble

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Sentry and Count are MUCH worse at trashing if you get them after the second reshuffle (actually they're worse after the first, but they go off a cliff from there).

That's a good point, actually - some trashers are inherently more clunky if your good cards-to-junk ratio changes. Lookout comes to mind as well.
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ipofanes

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Sentry and Count are MUCH worse at trashing if you get them after the second reshuffle (actually they're worse after the first, but they go off a cliff from there).

That's a good point, actually - some trashers are inherently more clunky if your good cards-to-junk ratio changes. Lookout comes to mind as well.

As Count can opt to topdeck or discard, up to two good cards in hand can still be handled by the trashing ability, which means Count is not particularly worse than Chapel in these cases. Lookout can handle a 2:1 ratio just fine though after 2nd reshuffle there is an actual possibility he decides to bite you in the balls.
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infangthief

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Now I'm trying to think of a card that's better when it misses the first shuffle.

Scout?
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crj

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Lookout can handle a 2:1 ratio just fine though after 2nd reshuffle there is an actual possibility he decides to bite you in the balls.
Just once, I was playing online against someone who forgot Treasure Map topdecked its Gold and played Lookout later that same turn...
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crj

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Rats is actually a surprisingly brutal card to have miss the shuffle. If you canít have 2 rats in your deck by the third reshuffle [...]
Remember you can often buy a second Rats on T4 if you need to. The opportunity cost is not buying something else, but if not having two Rats after the second shuffle is going to be a disaster, you can mitigate.
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markusin

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Rats is actually a surprisingly brutal card to have miss the shuffle. If you canít have 2 rats in your deck by the third reshuffle [...]
Remember you can often buy a second Rats on T4 if you need to. The opportunity cost is not buying something else, but if not having two Rats after the second shuffle is going to be a disaster, you can mitigate.

Depending on shuffle luck and buy/gain choices, your TFB trashing might be outpacing the rate you can replenish your Rats, and so if Rats is central to your strategy you may want to buy another one.

I used to hear that Soothsayer gets significantly worse if you don't open with it.

For cards you don't want to see very soon after buying it: Stonemason.
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ipofanes

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But then you don't want to open Stonemason very often. Fools Gold? Encampment? Lurker?
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samath

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But then you don't want to open Stonemason very often. Fools Gold? Encampment? Lurker?
Doesn't work on Fool's Gold. Double Lurker and Cursed Gold openings for two $5's are the most likely situation. But unless both $5's are terminal, you often don't really mind using the Stonemason to trash a Copper or Curse.
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aku_chi

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With $4, Stonemason for Razes is strong and often correct.  Also, Page + Raze or Ratcatcher could be correct.
With $5, there are a bunch of possibilities.  Stonemason for Urchins will often be best.  Stonemason for Lookout + another good $3 could be good.
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DG

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There really isnít a card thatís better when it misses the first shuffle, because otherwise why would you have bought it if you didnít want it?
I think cards like marauder can miss the first shuffle without much loss. It certainly doesn't seem decisive in games when it happens. A spoils might slow down your cycling just as much as a ruin slows your opponent. The ruins might be too late to catch an opponent's second shuffle anyway. Hands without marauder are more likely to buy decent 4-5 cost cards.
The cards that really need to be played early are the terminal trashers like count and trading post. If a card like sentry misses the shuffle it can be bad but you can buy more sentries to recover. You can't conventiently buy more copies of the terminal trashers.
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RTT

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so City quarter and royal blacksmith are much more effective when you dont play them on the first shuffle
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