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Author Topic: Deluded + Black Market  (Read 402 times)

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faust

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Deluded + Black Market
« on: July 23, 2018, 03:39:10 am »
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So Deluded says "at the start of your buy phase, return this, and you can't buy actions this turn".

The first part reads as though it only activates during your buy phase. But the second part clearly says I cannot buy Actions this turn. So while being Deluded, am I allowed to buy from the Black Market deck? And if the answer is yes, what about if I have already been in my buy phase and returned via Villa?

The online client allows Black Market buys with Deluded.
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markus

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Re: Deluded + Black Market
« Reply #1 on: July 23, 2018, 05:02:13 am »
+1

Yes, Black Market buys work unless you returned from the buy phase with Villa.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Deluded + Black Market
« Reply #2 on: July 23, 2018, 09:34:37 am »
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"You cannot buy actions this turn" is a thing that start happening at the start of your buy phase. It would probably until you reach the start of your buy phase, you can buy actions this turn.

I suppose it would be more grammatically correct, though also more confusing for normal situations, if it say "for the rest of the turn" instead of "this turn".
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faust

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Re: Deluded + Black Market
« Reply #3 on: July 23, 2018, 10:21:30 am »
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"You cannot buy actions this turn" is a thing that start happening at the start of your buy phase. It would probably until you reach the start of your buy phase, you can buy actions this turn.

I suppose it would be more grammatically correct, though also more confusing for normal situations, if it say "for the rest of the turn" instead of "this turn".
I guess the confusing thing is that you have this State, but the only time it starts doing something to you is when you no longer have it. I can accept that if it was meant to block buys before entering the buy phase, it would probably have been worded differently.

A problem that makes good wording difficult is that you can receive it in different ways and depending on those it either affects the buy phase of the turn it is received or the next of your turns after it is received.
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Since the number of points is within a constant factor of the number of city quarters, in the long run we can get (4 - ε) ↑↑ n points in n turns for any ε > 0.

GendoIkari

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Re: Deluded + Black Market
« Reply #4 on: July 23, 2018, 10:42:58 am »
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"You cannot buy actions this turn" is a thing that start happening at the start of your buy phase. It would probably until you reach the start of your buy phase, you can buy actions this turn.

I suppose it would be more grammatically correct, though also more confusing for normal situations, if it say "for the rest of the turn" instead of "this turn".
I guess the confusing thing is that you have this State, but the only time it starts doing something to you is when you no longer have it. I can accept that if it was meant to block buys before entering the buy phase, it would probably have been worded differently.

A problem that makes good wording difficult is that you can receive it in different ways and depending on those it either affects the buy phase of the turn it is received or the next of your turns after it is received.

I slightly disagree... the only time it starts doing something is "at the start of your Buy phase". It does 2 things at that moment. The first is to have you return it, the second is to prevent you from buying things this turn.

As a comparison to Magic cards, lots of cards have "sacrifice [card]:" as an activation cost. Those abilities only ever resolve after the card is already gone, but that doesn't matter. Thought the difference here is that losing Deluded isn't what causes the thing to happen. Starting your buy phase is what causes the thing(s) to happen.
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faust

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Re: Deluded + Black Market
« Reply #5 on: July 23, 2018, 11:03:08 am »
+1

"You cannot buy actions this turn" is a thing that start happening at the start of your buy phase. It would probably until you reach the start of your buy phase, you can buy actions this turn.

I suppose it would be more grammatically correct, though also more confusing for normal situations, if it say "for the rest of the turn" instead of "this turn".
I guess the confusing thing is that you have this State, but the only time it starts doing something to you is when you no longer have it. I can accept that if it was meant to block buys before entering the buy phase, it would probably have been worded differently.

A problem that makes good wording difficult is that you can receive it in different ways and depending on those it either affects the buy phase of the turn it is received or the next of your turns after it is received.

I slightly disagree... the only time it starts doing something is "at the start of your Buy phase". It does 2 things at that moment. The first is to have you return it, the second is to prevent you from buying things this turn.

As a comparison to Magic cards, lots of cards have "sacrifice [card]:" as an activation cost. Those abilities only ever resolve after the card is already gone, but that doesn't matter. Thought the difference here is that losing Deluded isn't what causes the thing to happen. Starting your buy phase is what causes the thing(s) to happen.
I am aware of this, but still maintain that it would be way less confusing as: "While you have this, you may not buy action cards. Return this during your Clean-Up phase." But it can't be that because you might be too happy getting it with Cursed Village (I assume; though other Hexes do nothing with Cursed Village as well, so it doesn't seem terrible).
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Since the number of points is within a constant factor of the number of city quarters, in the long run we can get (4 - ε) ↑↑ n points in n turns for any ε > 0.

crj

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Re: Deluded + Black Market
« Reply #6 on: July 23, 2018, 11:12:49 am »
+2

It bears mentioning that there's a rulebook, which often answers questions such as these:
Quote from: Nocturne Rules (p10)
This prevents you from buying Action cards during one turn, starting in the Buy phase. If you get Deluded during your turn before the Buy phase (such as with Leprechaun), it will apply that turn; normally it will apply to your next turn.
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Donald X.

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Re: Deluded + Black Market
« Reply #7 on: July 23, 2018, 01:48:53 pm »
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I am aware of this, but still maintain that it would be way less confusing as: "While you have this, you may not buy action cards. Return this during your Clean-Up phase." But it can't be that because you might be too happy getting it with Cursed Village (I assume; though other Hexes do nothing with Cursed Village as well, so it doesn't seem terrible).
It's just a classic case of pursuing the functionality I wanted rather than simplicity.
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