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Author Topic: "in play" on Royal Carriage  (Read 611 times)

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GendoIkari

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Re: "in play" on Royal Carriage
« Reply #25 on: July 19, 2018, 02:52:59 pm »
0

But it is not that simple. In general the rule cannot be "you cannot call Royal Carriage on a card that has left and re-entered play": I can Procession a Fortress and then play that Fortress again. It has left and re-entered play. Noone would doubt that it is eligible for Royal Carriage. So the real question is: since when should the card I want to replay not have left play? The natural answer to which seems to be: Since it was last played. But, behold: The Estate in majiponi's example has not left play since it was last played (which was by the other Estate-Crown), so that does not seem to be the rule. So what is the rule?

This is what my second response in this thread was about. It's a question about English, not about Dominion. "Are you still in play" works the same was as "are you still at work"? There's an implied duration in the question. It's not "since it was last played", because you will ALWAYS "still be" where you "last went".

I believe the natural reading is, as mentioned in my other reply, "has it not left play since it was put into play by the same act of playing it that was referred to by the 'directly after you finish playing an Action card'?"

In other words, Royal Carriage refers to "playing an Action card". The moment that action card was played is the start of your duration. If it left play since then, you cannot call Royal Carriage.

The "act of playing it that was referred to" doesn't always put it into play. In the simple situation, you can Throne a card, play it a first time, play it a second time (without putting it into play again, because it's already in play), and then call Royal Carriage. So it has not left play since the act of playing it that triggered Royal Carriage was initiated, but that act of playing it didn't put it into play.

(The same is the case in the scenario in the OP, except that it's in Sally's play area when that happens.)

That's fine; my idea doesn't depend on the act having put it into play. What matters is if it left play between that act and now. (Left play includes never having been in play, like with Throne Room + Feast).
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AJD

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Re: "in play" on Royal Carriage
« Reply #26 on: July 19, 2018, 03:06:32 pm »
+1

But it is not that simple. In general the rule cannot be "you cannot call Royal Carriage on a card that has left and re-entered play": I can Procession a Fortress and then play that Fortress again. It has left and re-entered play. Noone would doubt that it is eligible for Royal Carriage. So the real question is: since when should the card I want to replay not have left play? The natural answer to which seems to be: Since it was last played. But, behold: The Estate in majiponi's example has not left play since it was last played (which was by the other Estate-Crown), so that does not seem to be the rule. So what is the rule?

This is what my second response in this thread was about. It's a question about English, not about Dominion. "Are you still in play" works the same was as "are you still at work"? There's an implied duration in the question. It's not "since it was last played", because you will ALWAYS "still be" where you "last went".

I believe the natural reading is, as mentioned in my other reply, "has it not left play since it was put into play by the same act of playing it that was referred to by the 'directly after you finish playing an Action card'?"

In other words, Royal Carriage refers to "playing an Action card". The moment that action card was played is the start of your duration. If it left play since then, you cannot call Royal Carriage.

The "act of playing it that was referred to" doesn't always put it into play. In the simple situation, you can Throne a card, play it a first time, play it a second time (without putting it into play again, because it's already in play), and then call Royal Carriage. So it has not left play since the act of playing it that triggered Royal Carriage was initiated, but that act of playing it didn't put it into play.

(The same is the case in the scenario in the OP, except that it's in Sally's play area when that happens.)

That's fine; my idea doesn't depend on the act having put it into play. What matters is if it left play between that act and now. (Left play includes never having been in play, like with Throne Room + Feast).

So... this implies that in the OP scenario majiponi can call Royal Carriage?
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GendoIkari

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Re: "in play" on Royal Carriage
« Reply #27 on: July 19, 2018, 03:30:28 pm »
+2

But it is not that simple. In general the rule cannot be "you cannot call Royal Carriage on a card that has left and re-entered play": I can Procession a Fortress and then play that Fortress again. It has left and re-entered play. Noone would doubt that it is eligible for Royal Carriage. So the real question is: since when should the card I want to replay not have left play? The natural answer to which seems to be: Since it was last played. But, behold: The Estate in majiponi's example has not left play since it was last played (which was by the other Estate-Crown), so that does not seem to be the rule. So what is the rule?

This is what my second response in this thread was about. It's a question about English, not about Dominion. "Are you still in play" works the same was as "are you still at work"? There's an implied duration in the question. It's not "since it was last played", because you will ALWAYS "still be" where you "last went".

I believe the natural reading is, as mentioned in my other reply, "has it not left play since it was put into play by the same act of playing it that was referred to by the 'directly after you finish playing an Action card'?"

In other words, Royal Carriage refers to "playing an Action card". The moment that action card was played is the start of your duration. If it left play since then, you cannot call Royal Carriage.

The "act of playing it that was referred to" doesn't always put it into play. In the simple situation, you can Throne a card, play it a first time, play it a second time (without putting it into play again, because it's already in play), and then call Royal Carriage. So it has not left play since the act of playing it that triggered Royal Carriage was initiated, but that act of playing it didn't put it into play.

(The same is the case in the scenario in the OP, except that it's in Sally's play area when that happens.)

That's fine; my idea doesn't depend on the act having put it into play. What matters is if it left play between that act and now. (Left play includes never having been in play, like with Throne Room + Feast).

So... this implies that in the OP scenario majiponi can call Royal Carriage?

Ooooh... I misread (and it seems as though Donald may have misread) something. I didn't realize that the question was dealing with having played Estate again after it was in Sally's play area. I thought the idea was to call Royal Carriage on your original play of the Estate; the one that you played before you did all the crazy stuff to move it over to Sally.

So I see now that we're talking about playing the Estate-as-Caravan (as confirmed by the other thread), and wanting to call Royal Carriage on that final play. Indeed it has not moved or left play since the moment you played it the last time... I don't see why you can't call Royal Carriage to play it again in this case.

Donald's response says "It hasn't moved since Sally played it, but it has moved since you played it." Which implies that he had the same confusion I had.

*Edit* I think Donald's more recent reply to me agrees with this:

Quote
If it left play and got replayed, it's not "still in play" from the first time you played it. However it's "still in play" from the 2nd time, and so you could Royal Carriage that, to do what that does.

So you can't call Royal Carriage to play Estate-as-Crown from your original play; because it has left play since you did that. But you CAN call Royal Carriage to play Estate-as-Caravan, because it has not moved since you played Estate-as-Caravan.
« Last Edit: July 19, 2018, 03:33:09 pm by GendoIkari »
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Donald X.

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Re: "in play" on Royal Carriage
« Reply #28 on: July 19, 2018, 06:52:36 pm »
+2

But it is not that simple. In general the rule cannot be "you cannot call Royal Carriage on a card that has left and re-entered play": I can Procession a Fortress and then play that Fortress again. It has left and re-entered play. Noone would doubt that it is eligible for Royal Carriage. So the real question is: since when should the card I want to replay not have left play? The natural answer to which seems to be: Since it was last played. But, behold: The Estate in majiponi's example has not left play since it was last played (which was by the other Estate-Crown), so that does not seem to be the rule. So what is the rule?

This is what my second response in this thread was about. It's a question about English, not about Dominion. "Are you still in play" works the same was as "are you still at work"? There's an implied duration in the question. It's not "since it was last played", because you will ALWAYS "still be" where you "last went".

I believe the natural reading is, as mentioned in my other reply, "has it not left play since it was put into play by the same act of playing it that was referred to by the 'directly after you finish playing an Action card'?"

In other words, Royal Carriage refers to "playing an Action card". The moment that action card was played is the start of your duration. If it left play since then, you cannot call Royal Carriage.

The "act of playing it that was referred to" doesn't always put it into play. In the simple situation, you can Throne a card, play it a first time, play it a second time (without putting it into play again, because it's already in play), and then call Royal Carriage. So it has not left play since the act of playing it that triggered Royal Carriage was initiated, but that act of playing it didn't put it into play.

(The same is the case in the scenario in the OP, except that it's in Sally's play area when that happens.)

That's fine; my idea doesn't depend on the act having put it into play. What matters is if it left play between that act and now. (Left play includes never having been in play, like with Throne Room + Feast).

So... this implies that in the OP scenario majiponi can call Royal Carriage?

Ooooh... I misread (and it seems as though Donald may have misread) something. I didn't realize that the question was dealing with having played Estate again after it was in Sally's play area. I thought the idea was to call Royal Carriage on your original play of the Estate; the one that you played before you did all the crazy stuff to move it over to Sally.

So I see now that we're talking about playing the Estate-as-Caravan (as confirmed by the other thread), and wanting to call Royal Carriage on that final play. Indeed it has not moved or left play since the moment you played it the last time... I don't see why you can't call Royal Carriage to play it again in this case.

Donald's response says "It hasn't moved since Sally played it, but it has moved since you played it." Which implies that he had the same confusion I had.

*Edit* I think Donald's more recent reply to me agrees with this:

Quote
If it left play and got replayed, it's not "still in play" from the first time you played it. However it's "still in play" from the 2nd time, and so you could Royal Carriage that, to do what that does.

So you can't call Royal Carriage to play Estate-as-Crown from your original play; because it has left play since you did that. But you CAN call Royal Carriage to play Estate-as-Caravan, because it has not moved since you played Estate-as-Caravan.
I see. Note: this is still just an issue for Inheritance, Band of Misfits, Overlord.

When Royal Carriage refers to "still in play," it implicitly means in your own personal play area. That's my obscure ruling that will have no effect except to confuse people who read the wiki or look at Punchball's document.

Throne Room would normally put Estate3 into play in your own personal play area. It has lost track of it and fails to do that. This doesn't prevent you from playing it. But Royal Carriage can't be used there. That's not what Royal Carriage meant by "still in play."
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