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Author Topic: "in play" on Royal Carriage  (Read 976 times)

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majiponi

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"in play" on Royal Carriage
« on: July 17, 2018, 09:50:59 pm »
+2

Call a royal carriage on a card that is in your opponent's play area.

Is it possible to call Royal Carriage after playing an Action which I played and which is in my OPPONENT's play? I mean,

I Inherit Crown, Sally Inherits Caravan Guard.

play Estate1 to play Estate2 twice
- play Estate2 to play Estate3 twice
--- play Estate3 to play Throne Room twice
----- play Throne Room to play University twice
------- play University to gain Mandarin
--------- reveal Watchtower to trash
------- play University to gain Cultist
--------- reveal Watchtower to trash
----- play Throne Room to play Ambassador twice
------- play Ambassador to put back Estate3
------- play Ambassador
--------- Sally plays Estate4 to draw Estate3
--------- Sally plays Estate3
--------- I revealed Estate2
--- play Estate3 (which is in Sally's play) as Caravan Guard
----- call Royal Carriage to replay Estate3 (which is still in Sally's play)

Is it legal? Lighthouse's "in play" means "in my play", and Grand Castle's one means "in our play", I suppose.
« Last Edit: July 17, 2018, 09:52:07 pm by majiponi »
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werothegreat

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Re: "in play" on Royal Carriage
« Reply #1 on: July 17, 2018, 10:26:41 pm »
0

Rules as written, I'd say yes.  You managed, through shenanigans, to play an Action belonging to another player, and it is in play.

Lighthouse is "while this is in play", and if you managed to shift that to another player, they'd be the one protected by an Attack, though you would still get the + at the start of your next turn.

Grand Castle is just "in play" and counts all players' Victory cards.
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GendoIkari

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Re: "in play" on Royal Carriage
« Reply #2 on: July 17, 2018, 11:36:30 pm »
+3

Pretty sure this should be no, because of the “still”. If it has left play and re-entered play, it is not “still” in play.
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Donald X.

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Re: "in play" on Royal Carriage
« Reply #3 on: July 18, 2018, 12:11:36 am »
+3

Pretty sure this should be no, because of the “still”. If it has left play and re-entered play, it is not “still” in play.
Correct. You can only use Royal Carriage if the card has not left play; it's not enough for it to have returned to play.
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majiponi

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Re: "in play" on Royal Carriage
« Reply #4 on: July 18, 2018, 04:07:45 am »
0

Thank you. I was not sure whether Estate3 was "still" in play, since it hadn't moved since I had played it as the second time, which may cause Royal Carriage to be called.
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GendoIkari

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Re: "in play" on Royal Carriage
« Reply #5 on: July 18, 2018, 09:33:37 am »
0

I really, really don't want this to devolve into a big English language discussion, but this has me trying to figure out how a question like "are you still at work?" works. If I left work at 5pm, but then had to go back for something later in the evening, I wouldn't say "yes, I'm still at work". I would say "I had to go back to work". But... even if I had not yet left work at all; I still left work yesterday! So why specifically is it having left work today at 5pm causes me to not be "still at work", but having left work at 5pm yesterday does not stop me from saying I'm "still at work"?

In that example, it seems that "are you still at work" is interpreted as "have you not left work yet (today)?" The "today" becomes implied. But if the asker knows that I work 2 different shifts every day; and leave work in the middle of the day and return later, then the question suddenly becomes "have you not left work yet (since you got there this afternoon)?"

I guess my question is; how do we know/determine the time period that is being covered by "still" being somewhere? In the Royal Carriage example, "is it still in play" seems to be asking "has it not left play since it was put into play by the same act of playing it that was referred to by the 'directly after you finish playing an Action card'?" So it's ok if the card has left play many times before, as long as it hasn't left play since this particular instance of being played that we are concerned with.
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Donald X.

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Re: "in play" on Royal Carriage
« Reply #6 on: July 18, 2018, 01:10:46 pm »
0

Thank you. I was not sure whether Estate3 was "still" in play, since it hadn't moved since I had played it as the second time, which may cause Royal Carriage to be called.
It hasn't moved since Sally played it, but it has moved since you played it.

Sally could use a Royal Carriage on Estate3.
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GendoIkari

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Re: "in play" on Royal Carriage
« Reply #7 on: July 18, 2018, 02:28:34 pm »
0

Thank you. I was not sure whether Estate3 was "still" in play, since it hadn't moved since I had played it as the second time, which may cause Royal Carriage to be called.
It hasn't moved since Sally played it, but it has moved since you played it.

Sally could use a Royal Carriage on Estate3.

Now this has me wondering... if through a series of weird stuff like above; what if you re-played the Estate? Is it still the case that 's not "still in play" because it has left play and re-entered play?
« Last Edit: July 18, 2018, 02:30:22 pm by GendoIkari »
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Donald X.

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Re: "in play" on Royal Carriage
« Reply #8 on: July 18, 2018, 03:29:35 pm »
+1

Thank you. I was not sure whether Estate3 was "still" in play, since it hadn't moved since I had played it as the second time, which may cause Royal Carriage to be called.
It hasn't moved since Sally played it, but it has moved since you played it.

Sally could use a Royal Carriage on Estate3.

Now this has me wondering... if through a series of weird stuff like above; what if you re-played the Estate? Is it still the case that 's not "still in play" because it has left play and re-entered play?
If it left play and got replayed, it's not "still in play" from the first time you played it. However it's "still in play" from the 2nd time, and so you could Royal Carriage that, to do what that does.
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AJD

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Re: "in play" on Royal Carriage
« Reply #9 on: July 18, 2018, 09:54:57 pm »
+2

Thank you. I was not sure whether Estate3 was "still" in play, since it hadn't moved since I had played it as the second time, which may cause Royal Carriage to be called.
It hasn't moved since Sally played it, but it has moved since you played it.

Sally could use a Royal Carriage on Estate3.

Now this has me wondering... if through a series of weird stuff like above; what if you re-played the Estate? Is it still the case that 's not "still in play" because it has left play and re-entered play?
If it left play and got replayed, it's not "still in play" from the first time you played it. However it's "still in play" from the 2nd time, and so you could Royal Carriage that, to do what that does.

If I'm not mistaken, isn't that the scenario majiponi is asking about to begin with?
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Donald X.

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Re: "in play" on Royal Carriage
« Reply #10 on: July 18, 2018, 11:00:49 pm »
+2

Thank you. I was not sure whether Estate3 was "still" in play, since it hadn't moved since I had played it as the second time, which may cause Royal Carriage to be called.
It hasn't moved since Sally played it, but it has moved since you played it.

Sally could use a Royal Carriage on Estate3.

Now this has me wondering... if through a series of weird stuff like above; what if you re-played the Estate? Is it still the case that 's not "still in play" because it has left play and re-entered play?
If it left play and got replayed, it's not "still in play" from the first time you played it. However it's "still in play" from the 2nd time, and so you could Royal Carriage that, to do what that does.

If I'm not mistaken, isn't that the scenario majiponi is asking about to begin with?
Yes, if you weren't mistaken, that would be the scenario he was asking about. However, you're mistaken.
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GendoIkari

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Re: "in play" on Royal Carriage
« Reply #11 on: July 19, 2018, 02:26:24 am »
0

Thank you. I was not sure whether Estate3 was "still" in play, since it hadn't moved since I had played it as the second time, which may cause Royal Carriage to be called.
It hasn't moved since Sally played it, but it has moved since you played it.

Sally could use a Royal Carriage on Estate3.

Now this has me wondering... if through a series of weird stuff like above; what if you re-played the Estate? Is it still the case that 's not "still in play" because it has left play and re-entered play?
If it left play and got replayed, it's not "still in play" from the first time you played it. However it's "still in play" from the 2nd time, and so you could Royal Carriage that, to do what that does.

If I'm not mistaken, isn't that the scenario majiponi is asking about to begin with?

No, in the OP, the other player plays the Estate the second time, not the player who originally played it.
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AJD

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Re: "in play" on Royal Carriage
« Reply #12 on: July 19, 2018, 07:25:48 am »
+3

Thank you. I was not sure whether Estate3 was "still" in play, since it hadn't moved since I had played it as the second time, which may cause Royal Carriage to be called.
It hasn't moved since Sally played it, but it has moved since you played it.

Sally could use a Royal Carriage on Estate3.

Now this has me wondering... if through a series of weird stuff like above; what if you re-played the Estate? Is it still the case that 's not "still in play" because it has left play and re-entered play?
If it left play and got replayed, it's not "still in play" from the first time you played it. However it's "still in play" from the 2nd time, and so you could Royal Carriage that, to do what that does.

If I'm not mistaken, isn't that the scenario majiponi is asking about to begin with?

No, in the OP, the other player plays the Estate the second time, not the player who originally played it.

Huh? I'm not following. In the scenario, majiponi crowns Estate3. The second time he plays Estate3, it's in Sally's play area, but majiponi is definitely playing it a second time at the point.
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infangthief

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Re: "in play" on Royal Carriage
« Reply #13 on: July 19, 2018, 07:27:52 am »
+4

I Inherit Crown
I love threads that begin like this.
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singletee

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Re: "in play" on Royal Carriage
« Reply #14 on: July 19, 2018, 09:12:02 am »
0

I think in OP's case, it (Estate3) got played by me into my play area to do Crown stuff, left play, got played by Sally into Sally's play area to do Caravan Guard stuff, got played by me again via Estate2 (not putting into my play area). What does it do now? It is currently a Caravan Guard in Sally's play area so it should do Caravan Guard stuff, but we have no way of knowing in the general case that it is really the same card. We have already encountered this problem before and to my knowledge it wasn't really resolved. But regardless of what effects Estate3 has upon play the third time, can we then call Royal Carriage on the play of Estate3 that we just did?

The core of the problem being encountered is that it is possible to play a card without knowing whether that card is already in play, and thus whether RC is eligible to be called on it.

The core of the previously encountered problem is that it is possible to play an Estate without knowing where that Estate is, and thus what it should do upon being played.
« Last Edit: July 19, 2018, 09:14:03 am by singletee »
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markusin

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Re: "in play" on Royal Carriage
« Reply #15 on: July 19, 2018, 09:52:19 am »
0

I think in OP's case, it (Estate3) got played by me into my play area to do Crown stuff, left play, got played by Sally into Sally's play area to do Caravan Guard stuff, got played by me again via Estate2 (not putting into my play area). What does it do now? It is currently a Caravan Guard in Sally's play area so it should do Caravan Guard stuff, but we have no way of knowing in the general case that it is really the same card. We have already encountered this problem before and to my knowledge it wasn't really resolved. But regardless of what effects Estate3 has upon play the third time, can we then call Royal Carriage on the play of Estate3 that we just did?

The core of the problem being encountered is that it is possible to play a card without knowing whether that card is already in play, and thus whether RC is eligible to be called on it.

The core of the previously encountered problem is that it is possible to play an Estate without knowing where that Estate is, and thus what it should do upon being played.

But like,.when you topdeck Estate3 with Mandarin, doesn't the physical Estate get decoupled from the throning of Estate3 and for all intents and purposes can be treated as a separate Estate? So, the Estate Sally receives is not really "Estate3" from a functional perspective.
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GendoIkari

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Re: "in play" on Royal Carriage
« Reply #16 on: July 19, 2018, 09:52:33 am »
0

Thank you. I was not sure whether Estate3 was "still" in play, since it hadn't moved since I had played it as the second time, which may cause Royal Carriage to be called.
It hasn't moved since Sally played it, but it has moved since you played it.

Sally could use a Royal Carriage on Estate3.

Now this has me wondering... if through a series of weird stuff like above; what if you re-played the Estate? Is it still the case that 's not "still in play" because it has left play and re-entered play?
If it left play and got replayed, it's not "still in play" from the first time you played it. However it's "still in play" from the 2nd time, and so you could Royal Carriage that, to do what that does.

If I'm not mistaken, isn't that the scenario majiponi is asking about to begin with?

No, in the OP, the other player plays the Estate the second time, not the player who originally played it.

Huh? I'm not following. In the scenario, majiponi crowns Estate3. The second time he plays Estate3, it's in Sally's play area, but majiponi is definitely playing it a second time at the point.

Ok I see. The difference is that in the OP, Estate is in the opponent's play area, while in my question, the Estate is in your own play area. Your opponent never played it or anything.
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GendoIkari

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Re: "in play" on Royal Carriage
« Reply #17 on: July 19, 2018, 09:55:23 am »
+1

I think in OP's case, it (Estate3) got played by me into my play area to do Crown stuff, left play, got played by Sally into Sally's play area to do Caravan Guard stuff, got played by me again via Estate2 (not putting into my play area). What does it do now? It is currently a Caravan Guard in Sally's play area so it should do Caravan Guard stuff, but we have no way of knowing in the general case that it is really the same card. We have already encountered this problem before and to my knowledge it wasn't really resolved. But regardless of what effects Estate3 has upon play the third time, can we then call Royal Carriage on the play of Estate3 that we just did?

The core of the problem being encountered is that it is possible to play a card without knowing whether that card is already in play, and thus whether RC is eligible to be called on it.

The core of the previously encountered problem is that it is possible to play an Estate without knowing where that Estate is, and thus what it should do upon being played.

But like,.when you topdeck Estate3 with Mandarin, doesn't the physical Estate get decoupled from the throning of Estate3 and for all intents and purposes can be treated as a separate Estate? So, the Estate Sally receives is not really "Estate3" from a functional perspective.

This is a separate line of questions; one that was discussed several weeks ago in another rules thread. The question of what happens when you play your opponent's Inherited Estate. This thread is about whether or not you are allowed to call Royal Carriage on an Estate that has left play and re-entered play, and the answer is "no" (whether it re-entered play into your own play area or your opponent's).
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markusin

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Re: "in play" on Royal Carriage
« Reply #18 on: July 19, 2018, 09:59:38 am »
0

I think this is related to cases where you King's Court a Band of Misfits or Overlord that trashes itself, but then somehow finds itself back in play before the KC finishes playing the Overlord three times. If the Overlord trashes itself after being played the first time with KC, but then finds itself back in play with like a Throne/ chain before the KC plays the Overlord a third time, does the KC have to play the Overlord as the card it was played as when put back into play when KC plays it the third time?

Edit: Ninja answered by Gendo above I think.
« Last Edit: July 19, 2018, 10:01:20 am by markusin »
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markusin

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Re: "in play" on Royal Carriage
« Reply #19 on: July 19, 2018, 10:03:27 am »
0

I think in OP's case, it (Estate3) got played by me into my play area to do Crown stuff, left play, got played by Sally into Sally's play area to do Caravan Guard stuff, got played by me again via Estate2 (not putting into my play area). What does it do now? It is currently a Caravan Guard in Sally's play area so it should do Caravan Guard stuff, but we have no way of knowing in the general case that it is really the same card. We have already encountered this problem before and to my knowledge it wasn't really resolved. But regardless of what effects Estate3 has upon play the third time, can we then call Royal Carriage on the play of Estate3 that we just did?

The core of the problem being encountered is that it is possible to play a card without knowing whether that card is already in play, and thus whether RC is eligible to be called on it.

The core of the previously encountered problem is that it is possible to play an Estate without knowing where that Estate is, and thus what it should do upon being played.

But like,.when you topdeck Estate3 with Mandarin, doesn't the physical Estate get decoupled from the throning of Estate3 and for all intents and purposes can be treated as a separate Estate? So, the Estate Sally receives is not really "Estate3" from a functional perspective.

This is a separate line of questions; one that was discussed several weeks ago in another rules thread. The question of what happens when you play your opponent's Inherited Estate. This thread is about whether or not you are allowed to call Royal Carriage on an Estate that has left play and re-entered play, and the answer is "no" (whether it re-entered play into your own play area or your opponent's).

So then the answer to singletee's question about what happens if a card is played without knowing where it is is to do what the card originally did?
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Re: "in play" on Royal Carriage
« Reply #20 on: July 19, 2018, 10:25:01 am »
+3

I think in OP's case, it (Estate3) got played by me into my play area to do Crown stuff, left play, got played by Sally into Sally's play area to do Caravan Guard stuff, got played by me again via Estate2 (not putting into my play area). What does it do now? It is currently a Caravan Guard in Sally's play area so it should do Caravan Guard stuff, but we have no way of knowing in the general case that it is really the same card. We have already encountered this problem before and to my knowledge it wasn't really resolved. But regardless of what effects Estate3 has upon play the third time, can we then call Royal Carriage on the play of Estate3 that we just did?

The core of the problem being encountered is that it is possible to play a card without knowing whether that card is already in play, and thus whether RC is eligible to be called on it.

The core of the previously encountered problem is that it is possible to play an Estate without knowing where that Estate is, and thus what it should do upon being played.

But like,.when you topdeck Estate3 with Mandarin, doesn't the physical Estate get decoupled from the throning of Estate3 and for all intents and purposes can be treated as a separate Estate? So, the Estate Sally receives is not really "Estate3" from a functional perspective.

This is a separate line of questions; one that was discussed several weeks ago in another rules thread. The question of what happens when you play your opponent's Inherited Estate. This thread is about whether or not you are allowed to call Royal Carriage on an Estate that has left play and re-entered play, and the answer is "no" (whether it re-entered play into your own play area or your opponent's).
But it is not that simple. In general the rule cannot be "you cannot call Royal Carriage on a card that has left and re-entered play": I can Procession a Fortress and then play that Fortress again. It has left and re-entered play. Noone would doubt that it is eligible for Royal Carriage. So the real question is: since when should the card I want to replay not have left play? The natural answer to which seems to be: Since it was last played. But, behold: The Estate in majiponi's example has not left play since it was last played (which was by the other Estate-Crown), so that does not seem to be the rule. So what is the rule?
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markusin

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Re: "in play" on Royal Carriage
« Reply #21 on: July 19, 2018, 10:34:28 am »
0

I think in OP's case, it (Estate3) got played by me into my play area to do Crown stuff, left play, got played by Sally into Sally's play area to do Caravan Guard stuff, got played by me again via Estate2 (not putting into my play area). What does it do now? It is currently a Caravan Guard in Sally's play area so it should do Caravan Guard stuff, but we have no way of knowing in the general case that it is really the same card. We have already encountered this problem before and to my knowledge it wasn't really resolved. But regardless of what effects Estate3 has upon play the third time, can we then call Royal Carriage on the play of Estate3 that we just did?

The core of the problem being encountered is that it is possible to play a card without knowing whether that card is already in play, and thus whether RC is eligible to be called on it.

The core of the previously encountered problem is that it is possible to play an Estate without knowing where that Estate is, and thus what it should do upon being played.

But like,.when you topdeck Estate3 with Mandarin, doesn't the physical Estate get decoupled from the throning of Estate3 and for all intents and purposes can be treated as a separate Estate? So, the Estate Sally receives is not really "Estate3" from a functional perspective.

This is a separate line of questions; one that was discussed several weeks ago in another rules thread. The question of what happens when you play your opponent's Inherited Estate. This thread is about whether or not you are allowed to call Royal Carriage on an Estate that has left play and re-entered play, and the answer is "no" (whether it re-entered play into your own play area or your opponent's).
But it is not that simple. In general the rule cannot be "you cannot call Royal Carriage on a card that has left and re-entered play": I can Procession a Fortress and then play that Fortress again. It has left and re-entered play. Noone would doubt that it is eligible for Royal Carriage. So the real question is: since when should the card I want to replay not have left play? The natural answer to which seems to be: Since it was last played. But, behold: The Estate in majiponi's example has not left play since it was last played (which was by the other Estate-Crown), so that does not seem to be the rule. So what is the rule?

Can't the rule be "the card has never left the play area between when it was first played and when it finished resolving for Royal Carriage to possibly replay it"? In the example given, the Estate is in play when Royal Carriage can replay it, but it left play momentarily in between.
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Re: "in play" on Royal Carriage
« Reply #22 on: July 19, 2018, 10:39:59 am »
+1

I think in OP's case, it (Estate3) got played by me into my play area to do Crown stuff, left play, got played by Sally into Sally's play area to do Caravan Guard stuff, got played by me again via Estate2 (not putting into my play area). What does it do now? It is currently a Caravan Guard in Sally's play area so it should do Caravan Guard stuff, but we have no way of knowing in the general case that it is really the same card. We have already encountered this problem before and to my knowledge it wasn't really resolved. But regardless of what effects Estate3 has upon play the third time, can we then call Royal Carriage on the play of Estate3 that we just did?

The core of the problem being encountered is that it is possible to play a card without knowing whether that card is already in play, and thus whether RC is eligible to be called on it.

The core of the previously encountered problem is that it is possible to play an Estate without knowing where that Estate is, and thus what it should do upon being played.

But like,.when you topdeck Estate3 with Mandarin, doesn't the physical Estate get decoupled from the throning of Estate3 and for all intents and purposes can be treated as a separate Estate? So, the Estate Sally receives is not really "Estate3" from a functional perspective.

This is a separate line of questions; one that was discussed several weeks ago in another rules thread. The question of what happens when you play your opponent's Inherited Estate. This thread is about whether or not you are allowed to call Royal Carriage on an Estate that has left play and re-entered play, and the answer is "no" (whether it re-entered play into your own play area or your opponent's).
But it is not that simple. In general the rule cannot be "you cannot call Royal Carriage on a card that has left and re-entered play": I can Procession a Fortress and then play that Fortress again. It has left and re-entered play. Noone would doubt that it is eligible for Royal Carriage. So the real question is: since when should the card I want to replay not have left play? The natural answer to which seems to be: Since it was last played. But, behold: The Estate in majiponi's example has not left play since it was last played (which was by the other Estate-Crown), so that does not seem to be the rule. So what is the rule?

Can't the rule be "the card has never left the play area between when it was first played and when it finished resolving for Royal Carriage to possibly replay it"? In the example given, the Estate is in play when Royal Carriage can replay it, but it left play momentarily in between.
But it did finish resolving after the first play. Then it got played by Sally. Then it got played again (as Caravan Guard), and finished resolving without leaving Sally's play.
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GendoIkari

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Re: "in play" on Royal Carriage
« Reply #23 on: July 19, 2018, 10:52:44 am »
0

But it is not that simple. In general the rule cannot be "you cannot call Royal Carriage on a card that has left and re-entered play": I can Procession a Fortress and then play that Fortress again. It has left and re-entered play. Noone would doubt that it is eligible for Royal Carriage. So the real question is: since when should the card I want to replay not have left play? The natural answer to which seems to be: Since it was last played. But, behold: The Estate in majiponi's example has not left play since it was last played (which was by the other Estate-Crown), so that does not seem to be the rule. So what is the rule?

This is what my second response in this thread was about. It's a question about English, not about Dominion. "Are you still in play" works the same was as "are you still at work"? There's an implied duration in the question. It's not "since it was last played", because you will ALWAYS "still be" where you "last went".

I believe the natural reading is, as mentioned in my other reply, "has it not left play since it was put into play by the same act of playing it that was referred to by the 'directly after you finish playing an Action card'?"

In other words, Royal Carriage refers to "playing an Action card". The moment that action card was played is the start of your duration. If it left play since then, you cannot call Royal Carriage.
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Re: "in play" on Royal Carriage
« Reply #24 on: July 19, 2018, 02:18:24 pm »
+1

But it is not that simple. In general the rule cannot be "you cannot call Royal Carriage on a card that has left and re-entered play": I can Procession a Fortress and then play that Fortress again. It has left and re-entered play. Noone would doubt that it is eligible for Royal Carriage. So the real question is: since when should the card I want to replay not have left play? The natural answer to which seems to be: Since it was last played. But, behold: The Estate in majiponi's example has not left play since it was last played (which was by the other Estate-Crown), so that does not seem to be the rule. So what is the rule?

This is what my second response in this thread was about. It's a question about English, not about Dominion. "Are you still in play" works the same was as "are you still at work"? There's an implied duration in the question. It's not "since it was last played", because you will ALWAYS "still be" where you "last went".

I believe the natural reading is, as mentioned in my other reply, "has it not left play since it was put into play by the same act of playing it that was referred to by the 'directly after you finish playing an Action card'?"

In other words, Royal Carriage refers to "playing an Action card". The moment that action card was played is the start of your duration. If it left play since then, you cannot call Royal Carriage.

The "act of playing it that was referred to" doesn't always put it into play. In the simple situation, you can Throne a card, play it a first time, play it a second time (without putting it into play again, because it's already in play), and then call Royal Carriage. So it has not left play since the act of playing it that triggered Royal Carriage was initiated, but that act of playing it didn't put it into play.

(The same is the case in the scenario in the OP, except that it's in Sally's play area when that happens.)
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