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Author Topic: Grey makes a boring card now and then.  (Read 4926 times)

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greybirdofprey

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Grey makes a boring card now and then.
« on: July 15, 2018, 01:24:31 pm »
+10

No Villas here.

[Card name]
Cost: $3. Types: Action-Attack.
Card text:
+$2
Every other player discards down to four cards in hand, then gains a Copper per Victory card they discarded this way.
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LastFootnote

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Re: Grey makes a boring card now and then.
« Reply #1 on: July 15, 2018, 02:14:17 pm »
+3

I like it.
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popsofctown

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Re: Grey makes a boring card now and then.
« Reply #2 on: July 15, 2018, 02:27:07 pm »
+2

This is really cool.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Grey makes a boring card now and then.
« Reply #3 on: July 15, 2018, 02:30:42 pm »
+3

Nice. Needs some sort of reveal-as-you-discard wording though.
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greybirdofprey

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Re: Grey makes a boring card now and then.
« Reply #4 on: July 15, 2018, 03:50:42 pm »
0

Nice. Needs some sort of reveal-as-you-discard wording though.

You're completely right. How about 'Every other player discards down to four cards in hand, revealing the cards they discard. They then gain a Copper per Victory card they discarded this way.'?
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LastFootnote

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Re: Grey makes a boring card now and then.
« Reply #5 on: July 15, 2018, 03:55:15 pm »
+2

You could instead do, “Each other player with more than 4 cards in hand discards one. If it’s a Victory card, they gain a Copper.” Discarding one card implicitly reveals it.
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greybirdofprey

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Re: Grey makes a boring card now and then.
« Reply #6 on: July 15, 2018, 04:44:45 pm »
+1

You could instead do, “Each other player with more than 4 cards in hand discards one. If it’s a Victory card, they gain a Copper.” Discarding one card implicitly reveals it.

True, but you lose the slight strength increase with Council Room/Lost City/[some combinations of on-trash effects and trashing attacks]. Although I think I like yours better because I think the added simplicity outweighs those 'edge cases'.
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Fragasnap

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Re: Grey makes a boring card now and then.
« Reply #7 on: July 15, 2018, 08:28:06 pm »
+1

As a rule, I'm not a big fan of Copper junking. This works okay because it bounds itself by making players affected more likely to discard Copper, but that really draws attention to its similarities to Cutpurse. It gives +$2 and it makes players likely to discard Copper (though doesn't stack obviously).

I've played with
Quote
Bootleggers
Types: Action, Attack
Cost: $4
+2 Cards. Each other player with at least 4 cards in hand discards a card. If it is a Victory card, they gain a Curse.
Granting Curses to affected players gives a similar reducing effect as gaining Coppers, while +2 Cards not only helps it combo into itself for better effect but makes it emphatically different than Cutpurse.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Grey makes a boring card now and then.
« Reply #8 on: July 16, 2018, 09:36:38 am »
+1

As a rule, I'm not a big fan of Copper junking. This works okay because it bounds itself by making players affected more likely to discard Copper, but that really draws attention to its similarities to Cutpurse. It gives +$2 and it makes players likely to discard Copper (though doesn't stack obviously).

I've played with
Quote
Bootleggers
Types: Action, Attack
Cost: $4
+2 Cards. Each other player with at least 4 cards in hand discards a card. If it is a Victory card, they gain a Curse.
Granting Curses to affected players gives a similar reducing effect as gaining Coppers, while +2 Cards not only helps it combo into itself for better effect but makes it emphatically different than Cutpurse.

The comparison to Cutpurse makes me realize that this probably can't cost . It's better than Cutpurse in most ways. Early on, the right decision is going to be to discard a Copper over an Estate almost every time, so it will act exactly like Cutpurse. Later, it doesn't start missing like Cutpurse does.
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greybirdofprey

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Re: Grey makes a boring card now and then.
« Reply #9 on: July 16, 2018, 10:31:52 am »
0

As a rule, I'm not a big fan of Copper junking. This works okay because it bounds itself by making players affected more likely to discard Copper, but that really draws attention to its similarities to Cutpurse. It gives +$2 and it makes players likely to discard Copper (though doesn't stack obviously).

I've played with
Quote
Bootleggers
Types: Action, Attack
Cost: $4
+2 Cards. Each other player with at least 4 cards in hand discards a card. If it is a Victory card, they gain a Curse.
Granting Curses to affected players gives a similar reducing effect as gaining Coppers, while +2 Cards not only helps it combo into itself for better effect but makes it emphatically different than Cutpurse.

The comparison to Cutpurse makes me realize that this probably can't cost . It's better than Cutpurse in most ways. Early on, the right decision is going to be to discard a Copper over an Estate almost every time, so it will act exactly like Cutpurse. Later, it doesn't start missing like Cutpurse does.

I used +$2 so it can be used as engine payload, plus I think +$2 is usually slightly better than +2 cards in openings at getting you to $5. Think opening Moat/Silver vs. [Chancellor or Vassal or something]/Silver. Moat only increases your current turn's buying power more if you draw a Silver and a Copper with it, less if you draw Estate/Copper. If you open two terminals you're less likely to get collision if you don't open with draw. Although I didn't do the math so I could be wrong.


Hm.
-Only time it doesn't hit is when a player has two terminals and no villages in hand.
-Gives option to junk self when key price point is threatened.
-Doesn't stack.

Yes, I think $4 would be better. The stacking of Cutpurse only happens later in the game, which is also when it misses more often, and self-junking is still bad for the attackee.

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Screwyioux

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Re: Grey makes a boring card now and then.
« Reply #10 on: July 16, 2018, 10:32:40 am »
0

This seems a little under-costed. A terminal Silver that makes your opponent discard would probably be fine at $4, add in a possible junking effect and it could be a strong $4, possibly a $5.
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Chris is me

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Re: Grey makes a boring card now and then.
« Reply #11 on: July 16, 2018, 02:00:09 pm »
+1

Yeah, this is a pretty great card design, but it does need to be $4. I think it’s better for it to give out Coppers rather than curses. It’s nice for it to be slightly weaker and more newbie friendly, and it’s less damaging to certain alt VP slogs that way. I would use LFN’s wording and not care that it’s weaker in Council Room games or whatever; it’s already very solid.
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popsofctown

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Re: Grey makes a boring card now and then.
« Reply #12 on: July 16, 2018, 07:11:25 pm »
+1

There's also "each other player discards down to four cards in hand, then gains a Copper if the top card of her discard pile is a Victory card."

The Councilroom engines won't be dissuaded from playing the card.
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greybirdofprey

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Re: Grey makes a boring card now and then.
« Reply #13 on: July 17, 2018, 09:45:23 am »
+1

Yeah, this is a pretty great card design, but it does need to be $4. I think it’s better for it to give out Coppers rather than curses. It’s nice for it to be slightly weaker and more newbie friendly, and it’s less damaging to certain alt VP slogs that way. I would use LFN’s wording and not care that it’s weaker in Council Room games or whatever; it’s already very solid.

Based on the discussion I agree with $4. I mostly chose Copper over Curse because I want the 'discard something useful' vs. 'gain something bad'-ratio to be closer together - people are more likely to opt for gaining a Copper than a Curse. With Torturer this is achieved by the effect stacking.

One benefit of Curses (and Ruins) is that the size of the pile is catered to the number of players. All existing junkers that hand out Coppers do so sparingly, have conditions for not obtaining them, or help get rid of them. Mountebank slows down or stops as people get more Curses. Noble Brigand, Hex attacks, Jester, maybe Messenger, don't always do it. Ambassador gets rid of two before junking. Some cards have Copper/Curse as a penalty, but this is the player's own decision. All this puts a limit on how much someone's deck can be junked, perhaps because junking beyond some point makes the game too slow and unfun. I think this is why there are no unconditional Copper junkers - the pile is simply too large.

I think I can get away with Coppers because the decision of getting junked is in the attackee's hands, so you don't necessarily need the balance of a limited Curse pile. (Edge case: a hand of all Victory cards, but that barely happens, and as you get more Coppers you get less of these hands)

There's also "each other player discards down to four cards in hand, then gains a Copper if the top card of her discard pile is a Victory card."

The Councilroom engines won't be dissuaded from playing the card.

I think I would only use the top card of one's discard pile if other cards in a set use it. It does make Tunnel a good defense against this, though.
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LastFootnote

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Re: Grey makes a boring card now and then.
« Reply #14 on: July 17, 2018, 12:14:04 pm »
+3

I like that it gives out Coppers. I think it's fine for a sometimes-junker like this.

I would not ever, ever create an effect that cares about the top card of your discard pile. It's just a gigantic can of worms that you don't need.
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crj

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Re: Grey makes a boring card now and then.
« Reply #15 on: July 17, 2018, 01:11:08 pm »
0

Here's a closely related alternative that I've just thought of:

Each other player discards a card. If it is an Action or Treasure they draw a card, otherwise they gain a Copper.

My instinct is that might play a little better? It can bite more than once, but it softens the blow a little by helping sift any extra Copper they accept.
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LastFootnote

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Re: Grey makes a boring card now and then.
« Reply #16 on: July 17, 2018, 01:50:23 pm »
0

Here's a closely related alternative that I've just thought of:

Each other player discards a card. If it is an Action or Treasure they draw a card, otherwise they gain a Copper.

My instinct is that might play a little better? It can bite more than once, but it softens the blow a little by helping sift any extra Copper they accept.

I think that’s a card I’d never want to play with. I strongly prefer the less cumulative version.
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crj

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Re: Grey makes a boring card now and then.
« Reply #17 on: July 17, 2018, 02:56:01 pm »
0

OK. Slight further tweak. How about:

Each other player discards a card and draws a card. If they did not discard an Action or Treasure, they gain a Copper.

That means you can always keep four of the cards in your hand by repeatedly cycling the fifth. Apart from the Copper gaining, that's more benign than discarding down to four.
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pacovf

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Re: Grey makes a boring card now and then.
« Reply #18 on: July 17, 2018, 03:33:28 pm »
0

OK. Slight further tweak. How about:

Each other player discards a card and draws a card. If they did not discard an Action or Treasure, they gain a Copper.

That means you can always keep four of the cards in your hand by repeatedly cycling the fifth. Apart from the Copper gaining, that's more benign than discarding down to four.

I think what LFN doesn't like is that the other players will have to keep doing stuff (and making decisions) as you play them, slowing down the game. It's better when attacks either don't stack or don't require decisions.
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Asper

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Re: Grey makes a boring card now and then.
« Reply #19 on: July 17, 2018, 03:53:50 pm »
0

So I know this was perceived as a Copper junker, but I kind of wonder whether it would be easier to balance as a Curser. Like:

Quote
+2 coins
+1 Buy
Each other player with 4 or more cards in hand discards a card, gaining a Curse if that card was a Victory or Curse card.
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Chappy7

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Re: Grey makes a boring card now and then.
« Reply #20 on: July 17, 2018, 03:58:24 pm »
0

So I know this was perceived as a Copper junker, but I kind of wonder whether it would be easier to balance as a Curser. Like:

Quote
+2 coins
+1 Buy
Each other player with 4 or more cards in hand discards a card, gaining a Curse if that card was a Victory or Curse card.

I often wonder (for this card and others I've thought of) is it worth it to include ruins and shelters to a card like this? They aren't particularly common, but if they aren't included they become quite the loophole to the function of this card.
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crj

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Re: Grey makes a boring card now and then.
« Reply #21 on: July 17, 2018, 04:01:26 pm »
0

I think what LFN doesn't like is that the other players will have to keep doing stuff (and making decisions) as you play them, slowing down the game. It's better when attacks either don't stack or don't require decisions.
Is that really a problem, if the decisions are fairly simple? I mean, Masquerade is great fun. Or am I the only person who feels that way about it?
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greybirdofprey

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Re: Grey makes a boring card now and then.
« Reply #22 on: July 17, 2018, 05:35:22 pm »
0

So I know this was perceived as a Copper junker, but I kind of wonder whether it would be easier to balance as a Curser. Like:

Quote
+2 coins
+1 Buy
Each other player with 4 or more cards in hand discards a card, gaining a Curse if that card was a Victory or Curse card.

I often wonder (for this card and others I've thought of) is it worth it to include ruins and shelters to a card like this? They aren't particularly common, but if they aren't included they become quite the loophole to the function of this card.

Ruins and Shelters are expansion-specific types, and such types are usually only referred to in their own expansion.

Discard attacks are basically 'anti-draw'. crj has an interesting 'anti-sifting' concept. The main problem is that it can be beneficial for your opponents, as people could sift their Coppers to get better cards (especially when they trashed their Estates). So it would either need to be an interaction effect as downside on a rather strong card (perhaps a strong sifter), or it would have to care about card cost (such as 'every other player discards a card costing $3 to $6 (or to $7) or reveal they can't. If they did, they draw a card.') Or an Action/Treasure costing $1 or more.
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LastFootnote

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Re: Grey makes a boring card now and then.
« Reply #23 on: July 17, 2018, 05:37:55 pm »
+1

OK. Slight further tweak. How about:

Each other player discards a card and draws a card. If they did not discard an Action or Treasure, they gain a Copper.

That means you can always keep four of the cards in your hand by repeatedly cycling the fifth. Apart from the Copper gaining, that's more benign than discarding down to four.

I think what LFN doesn't like is that the other players will have to keep doing stuff (and making decisions) as you play them, slowing down the game. It's better when attacks either don't stack or don't require decisions.

That's definitely a big part of it. But also it just feels awful to get attacked again and again and again. Especially when you made the "wrong" decision. This is something that happens with Torturer, where you can try to guess how many Torturers they'll play this turn. Will I discard a Copper and a Curse? This is probably their last Torturer this turn. Whoops nope, I should have gained a Curse there. Now I'm down $1.

So yes, I specifically do not want to be making decisions about how to make my hand worse over and over. One and done, that's the way to do it. It scales better with the number of players, it's less of a downer, and—as pacovf notes—it's faster to resolve. It's win-win-win.
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greybirdofprey

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Re: Grey makes a boring card now and then.
« Reply #24 on: July 18, 2018, 09:53:55 am »
+2

Anyway,

[Card name]
Cost: $4. Types: Action.
Card text:
Gain a card costing up to $4. +$X equal to the difference between $4 and the card's $ cost.

Workshop variant that gives you virtual coin for gaining cheaper cards. Ironworks does it when gaining Silver. I'm a bit worried about balance when gaining $0/$1 costs and, if it isn't, whether the concept is salvageable.
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