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Author Topic: Grey makes a boring card now and then.  (Read 4923 times)

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Asper

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Re: Grey makes a boring card now and then.
« Reply #25 on: July 18, 2018, 10:21:37 am »
0

Anyway,

[Card name]
Cost: $4. Types: Action.
Card text:
Gain a card costing up to $4. +$X equal to the difference between $4 and the card's $ cost.

Workshop variant that gives you virtual coin for gaining cheaper cards. Ironworks does it when gaining Silver. I'm a bit worried about balance when gaining $0/$1 costs and, if it isn't, whether the concept is salvageable.

I don't really feel like +4$, gain a Copper is sooooo good it's broken. This is also nice for things like Hamlet, or maybe as an Estate gainer later. Apart from that, it's probably often just going to be a Workshop with a +4$/Copper option. Which is fine.
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LastFootnote

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Re: Grey makes a boring card now and then.
« Reply #26 on: July 18, 2018, 02:22:01 pm »
+1

Anyway,

[Card name]
Cost: $4. Types: Action.
Card text:
Gain a card costing up to $4. +$X equal to the difference between $4 and the card's $ cost.

Workshop variant that gives you virtual coin for gaining cheaper cards. Ironworks does it when gaining Silver. I'm a bit worried about balance when gaining $0/$1 costs and, if it isn't, whether the concept is salvageable.

I actually came up with this exact card last night, except that it was +Cards instead of +$.
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greybirdofprey

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Re: Grey makes a boring card now and then.
« Reply #27 on: July 19, 2018, 10:52:52 am »
0

Anyway,

[Card name]
Cost: $4. Types: Action.
Card text:
Gain a card costing up to $4. +$X equal to the difference between $4 and the card's $ cost.

Workshop variant that gives you virtual coin for gaining cheaper cards. Ironworks does it when gaining Silver. I'm a bit worried about balance when gaining $0/$1 costs and, if it isn't, whether the concept is salvageable.

I actually came up with this exact card last night, except that it was +Cards instead of +$.

Cool.

With cards it would be great for engines where the virtual coin requires feeding (Trade Route, Death Cart, Forager, some others).
With coin you still require a trasher. Would work well with Pooka.

I think cards is a bit more interesting - plus in trimmed decks and with deck-drawing engines, you can gain something under $4, then draw it.

Both of them can get you to $5 easily in turns 3 or 4, but with cards it also speeds up your deck cycling, so you can play those $5s (or $6s) faster.
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greybirdofprey

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Re: Grey makes a boring card now and then.
« Reply #28 on: July 20, 2018, 08:51:47 pm »
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Trying to think of some Remodel variants.

[Card name]
Cost: $[Not sure]. Types: Action, Reaction.
Card text:
Trash a card from your hand. Gain a card costing exactly $1 more it.
---Dividing line---
When one of your cards is trashed, you may discard this from your hand to gain a non-Victory card to your hand with the same value as the trashed card.

This should probably cost somewhere from $2 to $4. On the one hand there's the card's power that has an influence on the cost, on the other hand there's the possibility of turning Estates into these, or turning these into $5-costs, plus the interaction with itself and other trash-for-benefits. So I'm not sure what the best cost would be. The 'non-Victory' clause prevents gaining Provinces without losing your $7-cost card, but maybe lining up two of these and a $7-cost should be rewarded, plus there's not a lot of those.

[Card name]
Cost: $2. Types: Action.
Card text:
+1 Action. Trash a card from your hand. Gain a card costing up to $X more than it where X is the number of [Card name]s in play.

A spammable Remodel that becomes stronger as you play more of them.  I think it should cost $2 based on Raze/Ratcatcher/Lurker, and you can't trash Coppers with just one of them. Also see Trade Route/Develope/Forager. Maybe $3.
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crj

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Re: Grey makes a boring card now and then.
« Reply #29 on: July 20, 2018, 09:10:44 pm »
0

How are you expecting people to use that second card? To get any really nifty benefit from it you need to be playing two or three, which involves having two or three other cards in hand to trash with them. Doesn't that mean you either have to incorporate it into a fairly powerful engine which can do plenty of nifty stuff anyway, or people will end up turning Copper and Curses into Copper and Curses until two piles are empty? (-8

The first of those can probably cost $2. It looks pretty tricky to arrange for the Reaction to be anything more than a moderately good counter to trashing attacks, and gaining a card costing exactly $1 more is way weaker than Remodel's up to $2 more.
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Commodore Chuckles

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Re: Grey makes a boring card now and then.
« Reply #30 on: July 20, 2018, 09:22:11 pm »
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gaining a card costing exactly $1 more is way weaker than Remodel's up to $2 more.

Considering it lets you trash Coppers, Curses and Ruins, it's often way stronger, actually.
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greybirdofprey

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Re: Grey makes a boring card now and then.
« Reply #31 on: July 21, 2018, 10:42:35 am »
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How are you expecting people to use that second card? To get any really nifty benefit from it you need to be playing two or three, which involves having two or three other cards in hand to trash with them. Doesn't that mean you either have to incorporate it into a fairly powerful engine which can do plenty of nifty stuff anyway, or people will end up turning Copper and Curses into Copper and Curses until two piles are empty? (-8

I've floated around a couple of variants before settling onto this one. 'Up to' could be 'exactly', 'Gain a card' could be 'You may gain a card', 'the number of [Card name]s in play' could have 'after the first one', et cetera. They are initial concrete versions of concepts I thought of, not final versions.

Yes, it needs an engine to get two or more of them. And yes, you can't trash Coppers with it. You're right on both accounts - perhaps it's too weak. I think the most interesting fix would be changing it to 'Trash this or a card from your hand' like Raze. I use 'up to' instead of 'exactly' to give the player more control when playing multiple.

I think allowing it to self-trash so you don't need an engine for more than two, would make it more interesting. Let's also allow for Copper-trashing to see what happens:

[Card name]
Cost: $2. Types: Action.
Card text:
+1 Action. Trash this or a card from your hand. You may gain a card costing up to $X more than it where X is the number of [Card name]s you have played this turn.

With just one it's worse than Raze. In multiples they become stronger (and don't need an engine). You could turn Estates into more of these to get more benefit. Maybe this new version could be $3. I'm not sure.

On the second: I use 'exactly' so it can trash Coppers and Curses. I could've used 'You may gain a card costing up to $1 more than it', but it's more wordy. The Reaction is useful with trash-for-benefit or when you want to turn a card into another card. Don't forget having two of these lets one react to the other.

Yes, they aren't very strong. I was trying to make cheap cards.
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greybirdofprey

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Re: Grey makes a boring card now and then.
« Reply #32 on: July 22, 2018, 02:15:04 pm »
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The first one requires three cards for the reaction to work: the card itself to react and discard, a card you can trash with, and a card to trash. Lining up three cards is probably too much, and there are more interesting defenses against trashers.

So instead of trying to fix it I will make a new card with a similar flavour:

[Card name]
Cost: $[3 or 4. Not sure] Types: Action.
Card text:
Trash or discard a card from your hand. Gain a card costing exactly $1 more than it.

Is foregoing playing a $5 bad enough to allow for Gold-gaining? Leprechaun does it for Hexing yourself, which can trash your cards, junk you, or mess with your buy phase. However, with this you need to buy a $5 first, and you need to collide your $5 with this.
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