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[ClouduHieh]

First of all let me just say the whole coffers thing just confuses me. Taking a coin token never confused me.

Firth guild

+ 2$
Each other player reveals their
Hand. If an attack card is
Revealed, then they discard one
Attack card.
————————————————
When a attack card is played not
During your turn, you may reveal
This and take a coin token.
$3 Action-Attack-Reaction

I looked it up. Back in the day when there were various guilds. There was a Firth guild. Which were payed to protect the guilds.

[ClouduHieh]

Property deed

    4V

When another player buys a
Victory card, you may reveal
This and gain a card costing
Up to 6$.
0* Victory-Reaction-Prize

[ClouduHieh]

Kings wood


         7V
————————————
You can only gain this with
Coin tokens.
————————————
Setup: if plaza is not One of
The kingdom supply piles add
It as an eleventh kingdom
Supply pile.
$4 Victory

[ClouduHieh]

Bookbinding

Draw until you have 8 cards
In hand, skipping any actions
You choose to; set those aside
Discard them afterwards. Take
A coin token for each action discarded.
———————————————
You may overpay for this, if
You do gain a duchy.
6+ Action

[ClouduHieh]

Beekeeping


+1 Action
If you have the angry bee
Swarm pass it to the player
To your left. You may discard
2 differently named cards. If
You did +2 Cards +2$.
————————————
Setup: one player randomly starts
with the angry bee swarm (State).
$3 Action


Angry bee swarm         (State)


        -3V

[GendoIkari]

Firth guild

+ 2$
Each other player reveals their
Hand. If an attack card is
Revealed, then they discard one
Attack card.
————————————————
When a attack card is played not
During your turn, you may reveal
This and take a coin token.
$3 Action-Attack-Reaction

A couple problems...

- Nothing stops you from revealing this repeatedly when an attack is played and taking unlimited coin tokens.
- It is horribly weak if there are no attacks (or no attacks worth getting) on the board. Just a worse Silver.
- The top part is super punishing against attacks, to the point that people probably just won't buy attacks if this is available. Which makes this pointless to have, because no one will buy attacks. And even if people do buy attacks, the reaction is largely pointless because the top part already stops players from playing their attacks.

[GendoIkari]

Property deed

    4V

When another player buys a
Victory card, you may reveal
This and gain a card costing
Up to 6$.
0* Victory-Reaction-Prize

As a Prize, do you intend for it to just be mixed with the other Prizes, to be gained by Tournament?

Also has the unlimited reaction issue. If you discard it rather than reveal it, it might be fine.

[GendoIkari]

Kings wood


         7V
————————————
You can only gain this with
Coin tokens.
————————————
Setup: if plaza is not One of
The kingdom supply piles add
It as an eleventh kingdom
Supply pile.
$4 Victory

Requiring another specific card is really awkward... what if people want to play with this card but don't have Plaza? But as a purely fan card; that's fine if you really want. But would probably be much better to have it generate coin tokens of its own.

The wording of the top needs work... I assume that what you mean is that any spent on it must have been gotten through spending coin tokens. But as worded, it implies that you use coin tokens to gain cards, which isn't correct. To have the effect you want, you would need some weird/awkward wording that probably just can't work.

[GendoIkari]

Bookbinding

Draw until you have 8 cards
In hand, skipping any actions
You choose to; set those aside
Discard them afterwards. Take
A coin token for each action discarded.
———————————————
You may overpay for this, if
You do gain a duchy.
6+ Action

Probably way too good. It only costs more than Library (and and are not all that far apart in cost). Drawing 4 instead of 3 is way better. Even if that were the only difference. Adding in the Coin token bonus is huge.

[GendoIkari]

Beekeeping


+1 Action
If you have the angry bee
Swarm pass it to the player
To your left. You may discard
2 differently named cards. If
You did +2 Cards +2$.
————————————
Setup: one player randomly starts
with the angry bee swarm (State).
$3 Action


Angry bee swarm         (State)


        -3V

It isn't clear if you need the State in order to be allowed to discard for benefit or not. Is that part of the "if"? Or can you do that either way?

If that is part of the "if", then I don't know why you would ever buy this card. Unless your opponent's join in your little game, you just paid $3 for a Ruined Village. And also a sort of Duchy I guess... so if you happen to be the player who starts with Bees, you might buy this late; when you would be buying a Duchy anyway.

If you can do the discard either way, it might be a fair card; but the State just sort of adds an unfair randomness to it. The player who starts with the State is at a random disadvantage. Though if the card is good anyway, then likely the player who ends the game will have played on on their final turn, which just means they get a free Duchy on top of their normal game-end stuff.

[ClouduHieh]

For Firth guild.

I love attack cards and so even if everyone else had this I would still buy attack cards anyway. Also I’m not sure why you think I could get unlimited coins because you can only reveal it once per attack. There not likely to keep playing attack after attack. If your just going to keep getting coins. Also I’ve played many games where I had like a dozen coin tokens at the end of the game I wasn’t able to use anyway. With the real guilds cards like baker I wasn’t able to use em all especially if there wasn’t an extra buy in the game. So unless you had like 2 Firth guilds in a turn. You would probably only have a about 3 in a 4 player game.

But maybe I’ll change it to discard anyway. Or change it to wear you Can only 1 coin token per player max.

[ClouduHieh]

Yes a prize for one of my favorite cards tournament. Just another reason for everyone to compete in a tournament. And yes I was thinking it would be cool. If you could gain a few cards in a 4 player game. But at least everyone can stop it from happening by avoiding victories that turn. Cause after all there’s only one of these prizes. Which means it doesn’t get played with that often.

[ClouduHieh]

No you don’t need to have it to get the benefit. So maybe I can put it in the middle. To make it seem like it’s an added benefit, to have the angry bee swarm chasing someone else. I wanted to make it similar to lost in the woods. And it may seem unfair to one player to have an extra disadvantage. But there are already other cards and stuff that do that already anyway. Like twice miserable.

And it may not even change the score all that much anyway. It will be like having 3 -1V tokens. (Which don’t exist yet anyway) who knows if another expansion will be made after nocturne. Seems like 50% of the players that i play with online don’t like playing with nocturne cards. And will it be any better than nocturne? That’s probably why there people creating there own cards these days then when dominion first came out. I only saw 2 fan based expansions out there a year before adventures came out. I think one was fairy tale expansion. Now there’s like a dozen. And just a bunch of random cards too.

It’s a challenge making cards. If only there was a website that we could play online against the cpu with pre made cards. Kinda like rpg maker. If you can create your own rpg on a PlayStation 2. Then why cant make a card online that can also be play tested online. Then we all could tweak them better.

[ClouduHieh]

And with book binding your only getting one more card. But maybe I can just max out the amount of coin tokens you gain. Like you may set aside up to 2 Actions.

[ClouduHieh]

I put gain in there for a reason for kings wood. I didn’t want want anyone to gain this thru another action. I wanted this to be like grand market. If you have any treasure in play or treasure from Actions you can’t get this card. Only with coin tokens. You can’t get this from anything else. That’s why it has 7Vs because it’s harder to get. This is the card to save your coin tokens for and then when you have a bad hand use your coin tokens to get this.

So how would you word this with limited space I have on the card? So that you can get it with coin tokens? Also since you can’t get it without coin tokens it doesn’t make sense to have it generate it own coins. And also i wanted to make sure that there was at least 1 Card that generates coin tokens. I didn’t pick baker cause you start with one anyway, so I picked plaza so at least one would help you get it. And besides nocturne has a lot more cards that require other cards. Like exorcist, boons, necromancer ect. And having plaza is still tame to tournament.

[GendoIkari]

For Firth guild.

I love attack cards and so even if everyone else had this I would still buy attack cards anyway.

But you wouldn't get to play them, because they will be discarded from your hand. They will be as helpful to you as buying a Curse.

Also I’m not sure why you think I could get unlimited coins because you can only reveal it once per attack.

No, the rules of Dominion allow you to reveal it any number of times. This comes up with Secret Chamber and Moat. All reaction cards that are revealed from your hand either have you discard/set them aside when you use them, or like Moat and Secret Chamber do not give increased benefit for using over and over.

Also I’ve played many games where I had like a dozen coin tokens at the end of the game I wasn’t able to use anyway. With the real guilds cards like baker I wasn’t able to use em all especially if there wasn’t an extra buy in the game.

If you end the game with a bunch of coin tokens leftover at the end, then you made a pretty big mistake somewhere and should have been able to win a lot sooner.

And it may seem unfair to one player to have an extra disadvantage. But there are already other cards and stuff that do that already anyway. Like twice miserable.

Twice Miserable doesn't start on a random player. The issue isn't that it gives negative vp, the issue is that one player at random has to start with it.

It’s a challenge making cards. If only there was a website that we could play online against the cpu with pre made cards. Kinda like rpg maker. If you can create your own rpg on a PlayStation 2. Then why cant make a card online that can also be play tested online. Then we all could tweak them better.

Oh absolutely! Don't take my criticisms as a statement that I think I could do better. I haven't designed any fan cards because I would be terrible at it. But I do know enough about Dominion in general to be able to point out issues. If you haven't yet, be sure to read through Rinkwork's guide. Even though some parts are out-dated, most of it still holds true.

And with book binding your only getting one more card. But maybe I can just max out the amount of coin tokens you gain. Like you may set aside up to 2 Actions.

One more card is huge. Moat would have to cost less than without the reaction. Smithy costs . Hunting Grounds costs . And keep in mind that going from to is a much bigger price increase than going from to . Even if this couldn't give you any coin tokens at all I think it would be too strong for . Put it this way... the first one you play IS a Hunting Grounds, a card. And the first Library you play is a Smithy. But Library costs more than Smithy; due to the ability to set-aside actions, and due to the fact that you can play when you have less than 5 cards in hand. So this card without any coin token ability at all should cost more than Hunting Grounds.

Um, a shorter summary, instead of looking at this as an upgraded Library, look at it as an upgraded Hunting Grounds, in the same way that Library is an upgraded Smithy.

So how would you word this with limited space I have on the card? So that you can get it with coin tokens? Also since you can’t get it without coin tokens it doesn’t make sense to have it generate it own coins. And also i wanted to make sure that there was at least 1 Card that generates coin tokens. I didn’t pick baker cause you start with one anyway, so I picked plaza so at least one would help you get it. And besides nocturne has a lot more cards that require other cards. Like exorcist, boons, necromancer ect. And having plaza is still tame to tournament.

Good point on why it doesn't help to have it generate its own coin tokens, I completely missed that. I can't think of a good wording, maybe someone else can. "If you have no treasures in play" could actually be a good starting point. Alternatively, you can do something like this:

King's Wood - - Victory
7[$vp]
_____________________________
When you would gain this, you may pay 4 coin tokens. If you do not, instead do not gain this.

That way you can try to buy it all you want, but you need to pay 4 coin tokens if you want to keep it. And the "would gain" instead of "when you gain" prevents Watchtower tricks from letting you keep it.


One other option:
King's Wood - - Victory
0[$vp]
_____________________________
When you gain this, you may pay 4 coin tokens. If you do +7[$vp].

This version lets you get it even without any coins, but if you did, it's a worthless card. It's a little stronger because you can gain it, get the VP, and then trash it.

Actually, it might just work better as an event. A cost event that lets you spend coin tokens to take [$vp] tokens. It couldn't be for 7 anymore, because you wouldn't have a dead card in your deck.

[ClouduHieh]

For kingswood. I think I like the first option I might go with that. I hardly ever play with prosperity cards anyway. It’s my 2nd most hated expansion. Mostly because it doesn’t have very many actions. And some of the actions are annoying like forge. And some of the treasures aren’t that great like venture.

Anyway have you looked at my alchemy cards yet? Those cards are going to be made long before these will. And my snowline expansion which I haven’t posted yet would be next.

For book binding what if I made it cost $7+ and then this way if you had $8. But weren’t ready to buy the provinces yet you could get a powerful action and free duchy.

Yeah it’s true I would mostly not get to play my attacks. But there have been many times I would get 2 attack cards in my hand. And only be able to play one of them anyways. And I’m might change the wording on it like if every player has 5 or more cards in hand reveal them. So that way in a 3 or 4 player game you only have one attack card being lost. And your forgetting Firth guild is also an attack so you could discard there Firth guilds before they get to play them. Plus you have to understand that the majority of the ones I play with are still learning how to play the game. There going to realize a lot of the stuff you mentioned. Even 2 of my friends are still learning how to play with cards from certain expansions. And just a few months ago after a year of playing with it, they realized that they have been playing pirate ship all wrong. And one of them has half the expansions in real life.

You see me my friends have a lot going on in our lives (mostly my friends thought) I’ve got a little more time on my hands thanks to my mental disability. So Their memory isn’t very good when it comes to dominion. To them it’s just a game to play casually. And since I know most of the cards by heart I’m always re teaching them. Which I enjoy almost as much as playing. So these cards are mostly for my friends. I just post them mostly to give the rest of you guys inspiration. And maybe if I need to tweak them a little.

[ClouduHieh]

Actually the person who starts with it has the advantage (angry bee swarm) because they will want to get rid of it as soon as possible so they will buy the majority of bee keepers anyways. The player who can play it the most has the advantage. And if your playing a 4 player game your less likely to end up with it in the end, if you start with it.

And even though it says random. If I played with just my friends I would volunteer to start with it first anyways.

[ClouduHieh]

But maybe I can change it. To

Setup: when you buy a victory take the angry bee swarm.

[LostPhoenix]

- Nothing stops you from revealing this repeatedly when an attack is played and taking unlimited coin tokens.

Why does this "you can reveal a reaction card an infinite amount of times" rule exist? It seems completely unnecessary and only causes rule confusion.

[Gazbag]

- Nothing stops you from revealing this repeatedly when an attack is played and taking unlimited coin tokens.

Why does this "you can reveal a reaction card an infinite amount of times" rule exist? It seems completely unnecessary and only causes rule confusion.

It's to do with accountability as the contents of a player's hand is hidden information to the other players. So if the rule wasn't there then players could easily cheat by for example revealing a single Firth Guild 2 times when their opponent plays an attack claiming that they have 2 Firth Guilds in hand.

[GendoIkari]

- Nothing stops you from revealing this repeatedly when an attack is played and taking unlimited coin tokens.

Why does this "you can reveal a reaction card an infinite amount of times" rule exist? It seems completely unnecessary and only causes rule confusion.

It's to do with accountability as the contents of a player's hand is hidden information to the other players. So if the rule wasn't there then players could easily cheat by for example revealing a single Firth Guild 2 times when their opponent plays an attack claiming that they have 2 Firth Guilds in hand.

Exactly. It was just discussed at length recently, including Donald's thoughts, here. The real-card example is that there is an actual reason you might want to use both Secret Chambers if you had both in hand (and a Moat on top of your deck), but there would be no way of showing whether you were revealing a different one the second time, or the first one again.

[GendoIkari]

Actually the person who starts with it has the advantage (angry bee swarm) because they will want to get rid of it as soon as possible so they will buy the majority of bee keepers anyways. The player who can play it the most has the advantage. And if your playing a 4 player game your less likely to end up with it in the end, if you start with it.

And even though it says random. If I played with just my friends I would volunteer to start with it first anyways.

That's backwards logic... any player can buy Bee Keepers if it's a good card worth having, and it doesn't give you an advantage for having the swarm. So starting with the swarm still just means that you are forced to either get Keeper, or take the penalty.

[GendoIkari]

But maybe I can change it. To

Setup: when you buy a victory take the angry bee swarm.

That could work if you change the wording to "In games using this, when you buy a victory card..." (See Duchess as an example).

Then you could also decide if you want it to be "when you buy a victory card take the Angry Bee Swarm", or "when you buy a victory card, if no player has the Angry Bee Swarm, take it."

[ClouduHieh]

Ahh I see what you mean with Firth guild. If that’s the case I could just add in each player (including you) reveal their hand.

But that isn’t a problem with me and my friends we don’t cheat and we certainly don’t lie unless the game tells us we can like in the games coup and sheriff of Nottingham. Games are just to have fun. It’s just a pass time. Or a hobby for me trying to create cards. We shouldn’t cheat anyways.

If someone is dishonest about how many Firth guilds they have in their hand, that’s their problem. They wouldn’t do that in a real tournament, lest they get kicked out.

[GendoIkari]

Ahh I see what you mean with Firth guild. If that’s the case I could just add in each player (including you) reveal their hand.

But that isn’t a problem with me and my friends we don’t cheat and we certainly don’t lie unless the game tells us we can like in the games coup and sheriff of Nottingham. Games are just to have fun. It’s just a pass time. Or a hobby for me trying to create cards. We shouldn’t cheat anyways.

If someone is dishonest about how many Firth guilds they have in their hand, that’s their problem. They wouldn’t do that in a real tournament, lest they get kicked out.

But here the issue isn’t about whether or not you can trust people to cheat. This issue is that the rules of Dominion allow you to reveal the same card from your hand multiple times. It’s not cheating to do so; it is allowed by the rules.

[ClouduHieh]

theres so many rules we can’t memorize them all. So I’m just going to ignore this one. None of my friends are going to notice it anyway. When making cards all we can do is do our best and tweak them if too strong or too weak. But a rule I’m not aware or even understand is not my concern. If someone I don’t know has a problem with it then they can change it themselves for their own personal use. And if someone I know notices it (which I doubt) then I’ll address it then. If try to please everyone the card will never see the light of day. Unless you have all the amenities at your disposal like Donald does, our cards will never be perfect. It’s futile. And even he has made cards that weren’t that great. Feast  subject A. Dominion is just a game after all. I just thought I’d show you guys my card ideas and get a little feedback and maybe some minor tweaks. But there’s no point to fix everything in the card.

And if it really is a rule why can’t I do it with moat online huh? I thought it would be fun to try but it wouldn’t let me.

[dz]

And if it really is a rule why can’t I do it with moat online huh? I thought it would be fun to try but it wouldn’t let me.

That's just because the client knows that revealing an infinite amount of Moats is stupid and causes nothing extra to happen, so it just prevents you from doing it at all. If you WERE allowed to reveal infinite Moats online, then online would just be filled with trolls who would do that.

[Asper]

Kudos to GendoIkari for taking the time to explain everything again and again. I will just state that I agree to everything he said in this thread.

[Fragasnap]

GendoIkari is right.

Intrigue rules second edition, page 4 (emphasis added)

Diplomat: When playing this, you get +2 Cards, then count your cards in hand, and if you have 5 cards or fewer, you get +2 Actions. So, for example if you play this from a hand of 5 cards, you will put it into play, going down to 4 cards, then draw 2 cards, going up to 6 cards, and that is more than 5 cards so you would not get the +2 Actions.
Diplomat can also be used when another player plays an Attack card, if you have at least 5 cards in hand. Before the Attack card does anything, you can reveal a Diplomat from your hand; if you do, you draw 2 cards, then discard 3 cards (which can include the Diplomat). If you still have at least 5 cards in hand after doing that (such as due to Council Rooms), you can reveal Diplomat again and do it again. You reveal Reactions one at a time; you cannot reveal two Diplomats simultaneously. You can reveal a Moat from your hand (to be unaffected by an Attack) either before or after revealing and resolving a Diplomat (even if the Moat was not in your hand until after resolving Diplomat).

So long as the condition that triggers a Reaction remains true, you may reveal a single Reaction an infinite number of times in response to its trigger.

• Moat, Secret Chamber, and Trader avoid the problem by having no effect when revealed multiple times.
• Diplomat avoids the problem by reducing your hand-size by 1 each time it is used, eventually disabling its trigger.
• Watchtower avoids the problem by the lose-track rule.
• EDIT: Tunnel avoids the problem by not being revealed from your hand.
• Horse Traders, Fool's Gold, Beggar, Market Square, Caravan Guard, and Faithful Hound are all set aside, trashed, or discarded by their Reactions, thereby making it impossible to use their Reaction multiple times.

You can fix Firth Guild's Reaction either by making it only give +Coffers until you have a fixed number of tokens on your Coffers mat, or by removing Firth Guild from your hand when you use it (discard, top deck, trash, set aside, etc.).

theres so many rules we can’t memorize them all. So I’m just going to ignore this one. None of my friends are going to notice it anyway. When making cards all we can do is do our best and tweak them if too strong or too weak. But a rule I’m not aware or even understand is not my concern. If someone I don’t know has a problem with it then they can change it themselves for their own personal use.

It is not unreasonable to expect each player of Dominion to know the rules of Dominion. It is a fairly simple game. Card tracking and Reactions are the only mildly complex effects. We are not taking an adversarial stance in this regard. We are simply enforcing the rules as written.
Changing the card for personal use will necessarily create a significantly different effect of the card. If you set it aside, it will no longer be in your hand for the purpose of resolving an Attack, such as other Firth Guilds.

[GendoIkari]

• Watchtower and Tunnel avoid the problem by the lose-track rule (of the card you gained for the former, itself for the latter).

For accuracy; Tunnel avoids the problem by not being revealed from your hand. As clarified by Donald in the previously-linked thread, the multiple-reveal thing only applies when a card is revealed from your hand.

[greybirdofprey]

• ... Secret Chamber ... avoid the problem by having no effect when revealed multiple times.

You mean without something else happening in between?
You could reveal Secret Chamber to get a Caravan Guard in your hand that previously wasn't, then play that Caravan Guard, then reveal the same Secret Chamber again to see a card that you couldn't see on the first reveal.

[Asper]

• ... Secret Chamber ... avoid the problem by having no effect when revealed multiple times.

You mean without something else happening in between?
You could reveal Secret Chamber to get a Caravan Guard in your hand that previously wasn't, then play that Caravan Guard, then reveal the same Secret Chamber again to see a card that you couldn't see on the first reveal.

Yes, and that again is limited by the number of Caravan Guards in your deck. It doesn't stack indefinitely.

I mean, you don't have to like the rules, but whether you like them or not has no effect on what the rules are.

[ClouduHieh]

Maybe I’ll just change it this then. You may one reveal this for just one attack for each player.

Firth guild

   2$
Each other player reveals their hand
If they have an attack, then they discard
One attack card. If they don’t have an
Attack they gain A copper to your hand.
——————————————
When another player plays an attack.
You may reveal this, if it’s the first time
revealed this turn take a coin token.
$3 Action-Attack-Reaction

Now it doesn’t matter if you buy attack cards you still get penalized regardless. So the question is then do want 10 or 20 coppers in your deck at the end of game or do want to discard lots of attack cards and still maybe play a few here and there.

Unless your a copper strategist like myself getting a bunch coppers would be the last thing you want. And of course would want to buy because it would mess up all the other players strategies.

And that’s what attacks are sopose to do after all. And at least they get to put the copper in their hand. So now everyone will have a Firth guild and have tons of extra coppers in their hand. And a few coin tokens to boot. Any copper strategist will love getting attacked by this card. Everybody else will see this almost as bad as mountebank.

And I fixed it so you can’t reveal it multiple times per player just once per player. Even if you have more than one still just once.

Okay I fixed it should be the official way of reading it now.

[Asper]

A wording that would fit official cards is:

When another player plays an attack, you may reveal this from your hand. If it is the first time you revealed a XYZ this way this turn, take a Coin Token.

OR

When another player plays an attack, you may reveal this from your hand, to take a Coin Token if you did not do so this turn, yet.

OR

When another player plays an attack card, you may reveal this from your hand to take Coin Tokens until you have {one per player/some fixed number}.

[Holunder9]

Just like Council Room is a Laboratory for all other players Firth Guild makes all Attack cards into a Baker for you.
Seems pretty decent so instead of using a "reveal your hand" wording you could get away with a "set aside" wording à la Horse Trader. Not that it is totally horrible if Firth Guild would be a strong counter to playing 5 Cultists or Minions in a turn, these are strong cards. But I'd nonetheless go easy with the Coin tokens and first try the one time restriction. I also think that setting aside plays quicker than revealing your hand.

King's Wood is plain bad, it will just be a run on the Plazas.

Bookbinding is, as has already been pointed out, far too good.

I don't care much about the hot potatoe aka Angry Bee Swarm but the sifting of Beekeeping is interesting. It is probably too good for $3 though.

[ClouduHieh]

Yeah I might change beekeeping to a 4$. The angry bee swarm is mostly just to make it more interactive. Now if plaza was the only card then yeah everyone would be buying plaza, but they already do that just for the +2 Actions. So it doesn’t change anything when there’s only one pile of +2 actions it’s usually the first pile gone anyway especially in a 4 player game. And there’s a good chance there will be a good chance there will be another card that gives out coin tokens anyways. I wanted to make it similar to lost in the woods. And lost in the woods is kinda hot potatoe ish as well.

[Holunder9]

Implementing a hot potatoe mechanism via a State is a cool idea. But I'd never put the State switching on a non-terminal.