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Author Topic: Combo/Synergy: Courtier + Werewolf  (Read 740 times)

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werothegreat

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Combo/Synergy: Courtier + Werewolf
« on: July 08, 2018, 10:51:20 pm »
+2

(surprised no one else has done this yet)



Pretty straightforward: Werewolf is a full pile of cards with 4 types.  If you reveal one for Courtier, you get all of the choices, turning your Courtier into a "Gold" with +Buy that gains real Golds, which is pretty neat.  I'm not sure if this is game-winning or anything, but it's definitely more than just "cute".

Anyway, it's late at night when I'm posting this, so this is more of a "looking for discussion" thing than a "here is a finished article" thing.
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faust

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Re: Combo/Synergy: Courtier + Werewolf
« Reply #1 on: July 09, 2018, 12:58:39 am »
+4

Usually 3 Types is enough to get all you really need from Courtier. If you play the Engine, then you don't usually want the Gold; if you play BM, then you can do without the buy.
« Last Edit: July 09, 2018, 12:59:55 am by faust »
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Since the number of points is within a constant factor of the number of city quarters, in the long run we can get (4 - ε) ↑↑ n points in n turns for any ε > 0.

crj

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Re: Combo/Synergy: Courtier + Werewolf
« Reply #2 on: July 09, 2018, 09:08:47 am »
+1

This combo already existed with Dave Josephine, although she's just one card rather than an entire stack.

For added hilarity, you Inherit Werewolf. At that point the ruling goes that you just get all four bonuses once each, no fifth effect.

Am I the only person, by the way, who's a little sad that Courtier implies there will never be a card with more than four types? I want my Action-Treasure-Night-Attack-Doom-Duration-Reaction, dammit! (-8
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Chris is me

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Re: Combo/Synergy: Courtier + Werewolf
« Reply #3 on: July 09, 2018, 10:42:51 am »
+1

This isn’t really a “combo” in the traditional sense, or anything to write about, but there’s some neat synergy:

- Both cards are “soft terminals” that you can spam without as much problems with collision (extra Werewolves attack, all your Courtiers are nonterminal

- Gold gaining helps buffer a few of the Werewolf Hexes (handsize reducers and trash mostly) and gives you something not dead to draw with your Werewolves

- Less buttons to click online
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werothegreat

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Re: Combo/Synergy: Courtier + Werewolf
« Reply #4 on: July 09, 2018, 12:57:36 pm »
+6

- Less buttons to click online

I couldn't decide whether to say "a man after my own heart" or "fewer"
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werothegreat

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Re: Combo/Synergy: Courtier + Werewolf
« Reply #5 on: July 10, 2018, 01:14:35 pm »
+1

So I just tried a couple games with this against Lord Rattington.  Without any support, this basically sucked, as you need to open Silver/Silver to get these s, and then you end up just lagging behind anyone who gets a cheap trasher or attack.  Young Witch really hurt.  The next game, I opened with Monastery, and got a couple Changelings to help getting things rolling, and that worked a lot better - narrowly beat Lord Rat who was doing a kind of suboptimal DoubleJack strategy.  So this seems to work not as a strict combo, but as the payload/centerpiece of a broader strategy.
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Screwyioux

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Re: Combo/Synergy: Courtier + Werewolf
« Reply #6 on: July 17, 2018, 11:10:34 am »
0

One note on this synergy is that Werewolf already incentivizes not having to play it for draw, and this synergy in particular is at its best in decks with good control (thinning, draw and Village).

If you can play the gained Gold that turn, (say, lots of Werewolves and Village support), revealing Werewolf to Courtier then drawing the gold is effectively non-terminal +$6 and a Buy, one of the highest payloads in the game attainable by a single card, with the added benefit of attacking your opponent with each Werewolf you don't need to play.
« Last Edit: July 17, 2018, 11:14:44 am by Screwyioux »
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crj

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Re: Combo/Synergy: Courtier + Werewolf
« Reply #7 on: July 17, 2018, 11:32:42 am »
0

That sounds confused to me.

In the first place, it's not payload "attainable by a single card" if you need "(say, lots of Werewolves and Village support)" to make it work.

Secondly, you say the synergy is at its best in decks with good control, but it gains another Gold each iteration.

Thirdly, you shouldn't buy extra Werewolves in the hope of being able to Hex your opponents. $5 is way too high a price to pay for that. (Skulk includes +1 Buy, and is a thing you're forced to take in order to gain a Gold for a $2 discount.) Werewolf is a Smithy with a small consolation prize if you happen to draw your deck without it, or happen to draw it dead.
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Screwyioux

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Re: Combo/Synergy: Courtier + Werewolf
« Reply #8 on: July 17, 2018, 11:51:05 am »
0

I read your post, but I stand by what I said.

The single card generating the payload is Courtier gaining all 4 benefits (or three for what I'm talking about). It requires support to fully capitalize on, like most payload does.


Pro tip on Gold: It gives you $3 when you draw and play it.

You do benefit from high deck control with gain-and-play payload. Just because the Golds don't contribute to said deck control doesn't mean they don't want to have it, in fact it means the opposite. When you're looking to enable this combo you're looking FOR deck control.

A $5 action being too expensive for a single Hex is very board-dependent, as is drawing cards being the best thing you can do with Werewolf. Hexes get quite a bit more reliably disruptive when you give out multiple of them a turn, making Werewolf, effectively a non-terminal attack, or terminal draw. It's not set in stone which one of those is more useful.
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Cave-o-sapien

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Re: Combo/Synergy: Courtier + Werewolf
« Reply #9 on: July 17, 2018, 12:03:25 pm »
+1

Thirdly, you shouldn't buy extra Werewolves in the hope of being able to Hex your opponents. $5 is way too high a price to pay for that. Werewolf is a Smithy with a small consolation prize if you happen to draw your deck without it, or happen to draw it dead.

What you consider the consolation prize is what gives the card its value!

That flexibility is great. Consider two decks, each with the same number of extra actions and payload, but one has 2 Skulks and 2 Smithies, while the other has 4 Werewolves.

Which one is going to more reliably draw your deck and Hex your opponent twice?
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Screwyioux

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Re: Combo/Synergy: Courtier + Werewolf
« Reply #10 on: July 17, 2018, 12:09:46 pm »
0

Exactly. Werewolf is actually the most prolific Hexer in the game. The only other way to give your opponent more hexes per turn than excess Werewolves is Skulk with King's Court. Outside of that, having a bunch of Werewolves in hand is the easiest, most sustainable way to flood your opponent with Hexes turn-by-turn.
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crj

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Re: Combo/Synergy: Courtier + Werewolf
« Reply #11 on: July 17, 2018, 12:42:59 pm »
0

So what price would you put on a straight Attack-Night card that hexes your opponents, i.e. just the night-phase part of Werewolf?

My own view is that Hexes are nasty, and I agree they're especially nasty because multiple hexes stack more effectively than other attacks, but it's still not worth building your deck around. If you're going to turn the game into a slog, I'd rather have four Duchies than four Werewolves when the piles run out!

As for the comparison between 2 Skulks and 2 Smithies v. 4 Werewolves, remember that at the start of the game $5 is a much higher price than $4, especially when you're avoiding buying Skulks and/or Smithies to help reach it.
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Holunder9

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Re: Combo/Synergy: Courtier + Werewolf
« Reply #12 on: July 19, 2018, 01:09:53 pm »
+1

My own view is that Hexes are nasty, and I agree they're especially nasty because multiple hexes stack more effectively than other attacks, but it's still not worth building your deck around.
You don't build your deck such that you constantly hex the opponents X times per turn. It is rather the other way around: Werewolf doing something decent (unlike you I don't think that all Hexes are so horrible) when it is drawn without having any Actions left changes how you build your draw engine.
Overdrawing becomes better and the optimal village density becomes lower. That's a great thing and while it doesn't make Werewolf overall a better $5 Smithy variant than Margrave or Patrol there are many Kingdoms in which it can shine.
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