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Author Topic: Why I'm quitting Dominion for the foreseeable future (not satire)  (Read 4359 times)

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Screwyioux

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Re: Why I'm quitting Dominion for the foreseeable future (not satire)
« Reply #100 on: July 10, 2018, 03:33:27 pm »
0

That distinction, by the way, is a factoid that has been relevant to my life exactly one time. Just now.

Perhaps I will utilize this knowledge again some day, but today is probably not that day.
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crj

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Re: Why I'm quitting Dominion for the foreseeable future (not satire)
« Reply #101 on: July 10, 2018, 03:38:45 pm »
+5

In the spirit of what this thread has become, I'll note that there's seldom any excuse for saying "utilize" instead of simply "use"...
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Screwyioux

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Re: Why I'm quitting Dominion for the foreseeable future (not satire)
« Reply #102 on: July 10, 2018, 03:51:09 pm »
0

Oh are we talking about incorrect things that are actually annoying? Boy, do I have an ear-full for you.

The word "irregardless" is an abomination.

"Over" refers to physical location, not quantity.

"Nauseous" means it makes people sick. If you're sick, you're nauseated.

"Steep learning curve" means the OPPOSITE of how people use it. A learning curve shows mastery over time, if it's steep, then mastery spikes in a very short time. What most people mean is a gradual learning curve when they say steep.

"That" never refers to humans, "who" and "whom" do.

"Further" and "farther" are different words.

If you're ever thinking about using a semicolon, don't. Just don't. I promise you you don't need it.

"Unique" means one-of-a-kind. "Very unique" doesn't make sense.

"Since" refers to the passage of time, it does not mean the same thing as "because."
« Last Edit: July 10, 2018, 03:53:10 pm by Screwyioux »
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Screwyioux

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Re: Why I'm quitting Dominion for the foreseeable future (not satire)
« Reply #103 on: July 10, 2018, 03:57:56 pm »
0

A special mention to the fact that, as of 2017, it's technically correct to use "they" and "their" to refer to a single person.

I get it, "his" and "her" aren't perfect, inclusiveness, empathy, post-modernism yay!

Still, it was technically incorrect for so long that it trips me up every time I see it.
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Simon Jester

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Re: Why I'm quitting Dominion for the foreseeable future (not satire)
« Reply #104 on: July 10, 2018, 04:09:48 pm »
0

To mix up "tenant and "tenent" seems to be in the area of "axe" and "ask" rather than "question" versus "bacon" - spelling errors seems tangent to mispronunciation, at least to me. Vote: Diction, rather than vocabulary error..

I hope Awaclus enjoys what his thread has become.   

Screwyioux

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Re: Why I'm quitting Dominion for the foreseeable future (not satire)
« Reply #105 on: July 10, 2018, 04:12:02 pm »
0

To mix up "tenant and "tenent" seems to be in the area of "axe" and "ask" rather than "question" versus "bacon" - spelling errors seems tangent to mispronunciation, at least to me. Vote: Diction, rather than vocabulary error..

I hope Awaclus enjoys what his thread has become.

You're quite right, but we were talking about using the word "less" when "fewer" was appropriate (which I believe Donald intentionally did as a joke).
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AJD

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Re: Why I'm quitting Dominion for the foreseeable future (not satire)
« Reply #106 on: July 10, 2018, 04:15:22 pm »
0

Example of a written diction error: Let me axe you a question. <Clearly intended "ask"

That's more likely a spelling error, not a "diction" error. That is, the most likely reason somebody would write "axe you a question" is because they pronounce the word ask as "axe" and don't realize that the word is spelled "ask", not because they used the word axe instead of the word ask.
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Screwyioux

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Re: Why I'm quitting Dominion for the foreseeable future (not satire)
« Reply #107 on: July 10, 2018, 04:17:21 pm »
0

Example of a written diction error: Let me axe you a question. <Clearly intended "ask"

That's more likely a spelling error, not a "diction" error. That is, the most likely reason somebody would write "axe you a question" is because they pronounce the word ask as "axe" and don't realize that the word is spelled "ask", not because they used the word axe instead of the word ask.

Right, that's diction. The correct word was intended, but it was articulated incorrectly.
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Screwyioux

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Re: Why I'm quitting Dominion for the foreseeable future (not satire)
« Reply #108 on: July 10, 2018, 04:18:11 pm »
0

The tenet versus tenant example works too.
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Screwyioux

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Re: Why I'm quitting Dominion for the foreseeable future (not satire)
« Reply #109 on: July 10, 2018, 04:20:39 pm »
+1

Just so we're clear on this, we boldly embarked into "this never matters for any practical reason" territory about a page ago.
« Last Edit: July 10, 2018, 04:22:38 pm by Screwyioux »
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AJD

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Re: Why I'm quitting Dominion for the foreseeable future (not satire)
« Reply #110 on: July 10, 2018, 04:22:27 pm »
+13

"Over" refers to physical location, not quantity.

This is false; it also often refers to quantity.

Quote
"Nauseous" means it makes people sick. If you're sick, you're nauseated.

Nauseous also means 'feeling sick'.

Quote
"Steep learning curve" means the OPPOSITE of how people use it. A learning curve shows mastery over time, if it's steep, then mastery spikes in a very short time. What most people mean is a gradual learning curve when they say steep.

I agree with you about what "steep learning curve" means and disagree with you about your thesis that people mean the opposite. What most people mean when they say "steep learning curve" is a situation in which someone is forced to master a lot of knowledge in a short amount of time.

Quote
"That" never refers to humans, "who" and "whom" do.

Relative clauses using that frequently refer to humans. (That itself doesn't refer to humans, because in this construction, the word that is not a pronoun and doesn't refer to anything.)

Quote
If you're ever thinking about using a semicolon, don't. Just don't. I promise you you don't need it.

That's just, like, your opinion, man.

Quote
"Since" refers to the passage of time, it does not mean the same thing as "because."

Both of these are available meanings for since.

Quote
A special mention to the fact that, as of 2017, it's technically correct to use "they" and "their" to refer to a single person.

I get it, "his" and "her" aren't perfect, inclusiveness, empathy, post-modernism yay!

Still, it was technically incorrect for so long that it trips me up every time I see it.

I have literally no idea what you mean by "technically" here. There's no switch that magically flipped in 2017. They and their have been correctly used to refer to single (unidentified) individuals for centuries, and for single identified individuals of non-binary gender more recently that that, but it didn't just start in 2017.
« Last Edit: July 10, 2018, 04:23:57 pm by AJD »
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J Reggie

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Re: Why I'm quitting Dominion for the foreseeable future (not satire)
« Reply #111 on: July 10, 2018, 04:27:12 pm »
+2

This is the most prescriptivist thing I've seen in a long time.

Screwyioux

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Re: Why I'm quitting Dominion for the foreseeable future (not satire)
« Reply #112 on: July 10, 2018, 04:29:15 pm »
0

So some of thee, like "over" and "nauseous" have certainly come into popular vernacular with these alternate meanings, and using them that way means that most people will know what you mean. But there's a difference between regular just-two-humans trying to communicate grammar and technically correct, editorial grammar. Or spelling, or syntax or style or whatever we're calling it.

As far as the "his or her" thing, the magic switch that flipped in 2017 is that the AP style guide accepted it. AP style is the professional standard for correctness, so WITHOUT GETTING INTO THE SOCIAL ISSUES SURROUNDING IT, that's when it became technically correct.
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Donald X.

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Re: Why I'm quitting Dominion for the foreseeable future (not satire)
« Reply #113 on: July 10, 2018, 04:30:30 pm »
+6

A special mention to the fact that, as of 2017, it's technically correct to use "they" and "their" to refer to a single person.
It's been "correct" for hundreds of years.

You just posted a big list of language prescriptivism garbage that I am utterly against. The language is what the people say; no-one gets to make up rules for it and have them be right. When people start saying "who" instead of "whom," it becomes correct, just like when they started saying "you" instead of "ye" and "thou."

Man. As usual, this belongs in RSP, no joke. Take it there.
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Screwyioux

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Re: Why I'm quitting Dominion for the foreseeable future (not satire)
« Reply #114 on: July 10, 2018, 04:31:21 pm »
0

A special mention to the fact that, as of 2017, it's technically correct to use "they" and "their" to refer to a single person.
It's been "correct" for hundreds of years.

You just posted a big list of language prescriptivism garbage that I am utterly against. The language is what the people say; no-one gets to make up rules for it and have them be right. When people start saying "who" instead of "whom," it becomes correct, just like when they started saying "you" instead of "ye" and "thou."

Man. As usual, this belongs in RSP, no joke. Take it there.


THE WHOLE JOKE WAS THAT WE WERE TALKING ABOUT THINGS THAT DON'T MATTER!!!!!!
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Donald X.

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Re: Why I'm quitting Dominion for the foreseeable future (not satire)
« Reply #115 on: July 10, 2018, 04:33:12 pm »
+1

A special mention to the fact that, as of 2017, it's technically correct to use "they" and "their" to refer to a single person.
It's been "correct" for hundreds of years.

You just posted a big list of language prescriptivism garbage that I am utterly against. The language is what the people say; no-one gets to make up rules for it and have them be right. When people start saying "who" instead of "whom," it becomes correct, just like when they started saying "you" instead of "ye" and "thou."

Man. As usual, this belongs in RSP, no joke. Take it there.


THE WHOLE JOKE WAS THAT WE WERE TALKING ABOUT THINGS THAT DON'T MATTER!!!!!!
Take it to RSP, we try to keep poison out of the forums visible to guests.
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Screwyioux

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Re: Why I'm quitting Dominion for the foreseeable future (not satire)
« Reply #116 on: July 10, 2018, 04:34:08 pm »
0

I am not a prescriptivist when it comes to language (at least not for free I'm not).

Someone made a meaningless correction to tenet vs tenant, Donald made a joke intentionally misusing "less" to showcase the triviality of it, and LastFootnote kept the joke going by talking about Diction.

I just ran with it!
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Screwyioux

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Re: Why I'm quitting Dominion for the foreseeable future (not satire)
« Reply #117 on: July 10, 2018, 04:35:45 pm »
+1

Whoosh, I guess.
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Donald X.

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Re: Why I'm quitting Dominion for the foreseeable future (not satire)
« Reply #118 on: July 10, 2018, 04:36:06 pm »
+1

I am not a prescriptivist when it comes to language (at least not for free I'm not).

Someone made a meaningless correction to tenet vs tenant, Donald made a joke intentionally misusing "less" to showcase the triviality of it, and LastFootnote kept the joke going by talking about Diction.

I just ran with it!
If that was all supposed to be hilarious, I have bad news for you.
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crj

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Re: Why I'm quitting Dominion for the foreseeable future (not satire)
« Reply #119 on: July 10, 2018, 04:42:34 pm »
0

A special mention to the fact that, as of 2017, it's technically correct to use "they" and "their" to refer to a single person.
Wikipedia has examples in English going back to 1382 (the Wycliffe Bible) and the equivalent construct has been used for a lot longer than that in other, more ancient, languages.

Singular "we", "you" and "they" are all acceptable in English; singular "you" has become ubiquitous.

(PS: See? An appropriate and correct use of a semicolon!)
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Screwyioux

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Re: Why I'm quitting Dominion for the foreseeable future (not satire)
« Reply #120 on: July 10, 2018, 04:50:08 pm »
0

Man, this has gotten so far away from the point (and the joke).

I'm somebody who is passionate about language and the approach and arguments you're making against prescriptivism are valid. I even agree to a point (I mean with no concept of correctness we don't have a language at all, if the point is to convey information, at a certain point precision matters). I find the attitudes people apply to communication and the utility they do and don't have fascinating.

But let's talk about something as near and dear to our hearts as whether or not I'm allowed to say "they" in a press release:

ELAGABALUS WAS THE BEST EMPEROR ROME EVER HAD!!!!!!

« Last Edit: July 10, 2018, 04:51:51 pm by Screwyioux »
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Seprix

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Re: Why I'm quitting Dominion for the foreseeable future (not satire)
« Reply #121 on: July 10, 2018, 09:19:43 pm »
0

lol speaking of this thread, I'm actually going to take a break from playing Dominion, for a lot of the reasons Awaclus has. The game is seriously exhausting to play competitively.
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phonological loop

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Re: Why I'm quitting Dominion for the foreseeable future (not satire)
« Reply #122 on: July 10, 2018, 09:22:29 pm »
0

I hope "Sirlins" do find Dominion off-putting. If they're put off enough, I'll never have to deal with them or their bullshit. For people who are supposed to be subscribing to the tenet "play the game that everybody else is playing", they sure seem to whine a lot about making games more "competitive". I dunno, sounds like scrub talk to me.

If you want to play the equivalent of "no items, Fox only, Final Destination" in Dominion—and I'm not saying you do, but if you did—I think the closest analogue you could get is to find the set of 10 Kingdom cards that most rewards skill, and only ever play that board. Just play the crap out of it. That way you never have to experience the endless variety that makes Dominion so much fun. It's not a perfect analogy, of course, but you can't get a perfect analogy between a fighting game and a turn-based card game.

So yeah, for those who are looking to remove luck or whatever from Dominion, I say, go play Chess. Better yet, go play Chess 2! It's what Sirlin would do.

Thanks for your thoughtful reply. I suppose I might as well comment, since it seems everyone else is too busy falling for the prescriptivist bait and some points got lost in the shuffle.

First, my term "Sirlin" was an unfortunate choice, because I see it connotes certain negative aspects -- like his personality -- that are not essential to the psychology I meant to describe. I don't think it is necessary that someone who views games as intellectual sport is also an asshole. For example, I am a poor chess player, but I've played some live tournaments and a lot more online, and I've met a lot of players who are competitive and "play to win." But most are also kind people and good sports.

So, if you want to design games that are not meant primarily for people with a "competitive" mindset, that's totally cool. I just wish the justification was more about having a design philosophy that differs from theirs and less that you don't care about pleasing them because they're jerks, because I don't think that is usually the case. Maybe "competitive" is not even the right word. The mindset I'm trying to get across is about valuing certain game design principles, not cut-throat behavior and rudeness.

The "no items, Fox only, Final Destination" meme began as a parody of "competitive" Smash, and I wouldn't take it too literally. In any case, I don't think people with a "games as sport" mentality necessarily dislike variety. I would guess most welcome it. More variety means more strategic options and a richer game, right? Of course there are sometimes tradeoffs -- maybe there's a point where there's so much variety you just can't balance the game properly -- but personally I welcome variety.

Your comment about people wanting to remove luck from Dominion is interesting. There's been a lot of a good discussion on previous pages about this, but I'll reiterate some points briefly. I think we should distinguish between a game having elements of chance, and those elements of chance affecting the outcome of the game in a way that makes in-game decisions seem useless or purposeless. For instance, I don't know much about poker, but I've heard it said that the same players tend to rise to the top of tournaments despite the nominally large role chance plays in the game. This makes sense to me, because even though a single hand might be decided largely by chance factors, over the course of thousands of hands -- if skill has any impact on the outcome at all -- the better player should win out. So while poker is a game of "chance," the variance in outcome is actually quite small relative to the skill of the players and their decisions. (If anyone here plays poker competitively, please weigh in.)

However, if elements of chance frequently affect the outcome of the game to a large enough degree that one player simply can't win even if she plays optimally -- or more realistically, if the skew is quite large but not 100% decisive -- someone with a "games as sport" mindset may find that off-putting. This is more or less what I take Awaclus's point 5 to be.

Of course, we all have different tolerances for chance affecting game outcomes relative to player decisions, and that tolerance can't be zero unless you want to always play deterministic games because horrible draws and freak events will inevitably occur. But I do sympathize with Awaclus's preference here, at least on some days.

(And yeah, Chess 2 seems to misunderstand chess. If you want a variant that fixes some perceived defects, I'd go with Chess960 as mentioned earlier.)
« Last Edit: July 10, 2018, 10:11:37 pm by phonological loop »
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silvern

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Re: Why I'm quitting Dominion for the foreseeable future (not satire)
« Reply #123 on: July 10, 2018, 10:25:40 pm »
+4

okay guys, we get it, Awaclus is quitting dominion
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faust

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Re: Why I'm quitting Dominion for the foreseeable future (not satire)
« Reply #124 on: July 11, 2018, 02:10:23 am »
0

If you're ever thinking about using a semicolon, don't. Just don't. I promise you you don't need it.
Here is an interesting podcast about how a problematic semicolon in the US-American constitution could cause a constitutional crisis:

http://revisionisthistory.com/episodes/21-divide-and-conquer

That said, semicola are cool. But they are also the most subtle of punctuation marks. You should really know what you're doing when using it. Unlike the people who wrote the US-American constitution.
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