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Author Topic: Why I'm quitting Dominion for the foreseeable future (not satire)  (Read 4539 times)

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Awaclus

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+6

So I haven't played any ladder in almost three months and I just finished my matches for this season in the League and decided not to return for the next season. Here are some reasons why, in order from most to least important:

1) Prismata doesn't have any of the following problems and it's just a really good game in general so I'd rather spend my time playing Prismata.
2) My opponent can take a really long time to think while I have nothing to do. Slowrolling on purpose is a rare problem, but people who just take a long time to think are pretty common and just as frustrating to play against.
3) There's no deck tracker. This means I have to choose between spending a long time digging the log for information all the time and making uninformed decisions all the time.
4) Shuffle iT's implementation is sometimes very slow, which is probably at least partially because it's a browser client, not a standalone.
5) There are many reasons why the game can be a serious uphill battle for one player for reasons nobody had any control over. The most notable reason is first player advantage, but games where that happens because of shuffle luck are also common enough that they actually happen. While alternating the starting player can make it a fair match in a tournament or the League, that doesn't make it any more enjoyable to play the games where a player can only really lose if they make an enormous mistake.
6) If I play ladder actively, I mostly have to get matched against people who are significantly worse than me. This might not be true at the moment, but it was when I stopped playing ladder three months ago, hoping that the other problems wouldn't bother me so much in the more competitive and more evenly matched League setting (but as it turns out, they still did).
7) Donald X. has been talking about each new expansion being diminishing returns because you only get to see the new cards so often when there are 300 other cards in the pool, and with the release of Nocturne, I think we finally passed some kind of a threshold for me where I feel like it actually didn't really contribute very much towards making the overall game more interesting. I still have a lot of Nocturne cards that I suck at playing, and I think that's mostly just because a lot of kingdoms just have the same old cards that I can already wrap my head around and the Nocturne stuff doesn't show up all that much. This is not really even a problem per say, but some kind of a standardized format (that you could automatch for) that leaves out some of the older expansions certainly wouldn't hurt.

Honestly if Stef gets his ShiT together and does something about points 2, 3, and 4, that will probably be enough for me to get back into playing Dominion actively, but aside from that, I'll probably only play in the big tournaments and whenever there's a new expansion just to check it out.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Why I'm quitting Dominion for the foreseeable future (not satire)
« Reply #1 on: July 06, 2018, 10:07:17 am »
+3

For #3, the solution is not to add a deck tracker; but to prevent people from accessing the full log during the game. Deck tracking is supposed to be a mental exercise in Dominion.
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Awaclus

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Re: Why I'm quitting Dominion for the foreseeable future (not satire)
« Reply #2 on: July 06, 2018, 10:13:25 am »
+6

For #3, the solution is not to add a deck tracker; but to prevent people from accessing the full log during the game. Deck tracking is supposed to be a mental exercise in Dominion.

Then that's even worse.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Why I'm quitting Dominion for the foreseeable future (not satire)
« Reply #3 on: July 06, 2018, 10:15:24 am »
+3

For #3, the solution is not to add a deck tracker; but to prevent people from accessing the full log during the game. Deck tracking is supposed to be a mental exercise in Dominion.

Then that's even worse.

That’s the game of Dominion as it was designed. You may prefer to play a variant where deck tracking is allowed, but that is a variant.
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markusin

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Re: Why I'm quitting Dominion for the foreseeable future (not satire)
« Reply #4 on: July 06, 2018, 10:38:44 am »
+2

Ultimately, your leisure time is valuable, and you should spend it in a way you find enjoyable. Sometimes it's necessary to set one activity aside towards making the most of your time.

I myself typically only play 2 or 3 games at a time. I think I only played one game of Dominion over the last couple of months, and that was literally to not disappear from the Scavenger boards. I have also been less active on Discord as well. I do check the forums and Discord almost daily though.

The nice thing about board games like Dominion is that you can quit and still be proficient if you return months or even years later. The same can't be said for action multiplayer games that require constant play to maintain dexterity.
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Re: Why I'm quitting Dominion for the foreseeable future (not satire)
« Reply #5 on: July 06, 2018, 10:52:27 am »
+2

Seconding what Markusin said, it's good that you're evaluating how much you're enjoying your hobbies and which ones to pursue.
These complaints are all valid, and if you're not having fun it's absolutely time to take a break.

That said, I think I speak for many when I say I hope you come back to Dominion at some point. We need outspoken community members who are passionate about the game!
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Re: Why I'm quitting Dominion for the foreseeable future (not satire)
« Reply #6 on: July 06, 2018, 11:09:38 am »
+2

I hope you come back.
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werothegreat

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Re: Why I'm quitting Dominion for the foreseeable future (not satire)
« Reply #7 on: July 06, 2018, 11:43:52 am »
+3

okay bye
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Re: Why I'm quitting Dominion for the foreseeable future (not satire)
« Reply #8 on: July 06, 2018, 11:46:18 am »
+15

I think that, perhaps, a lot of these issues stem from the fact that Dominion was not designed to be played at the level that top players are playing it. Which is not to say that top players are doing anything wrong. It's just a reality.

I do not generally have an issue with people playing too slowly, except when it's obvious they're not paying attention, which does happen sometimes. Probably I also play too slowly for Awaclus's taste, though.

I'm 100% with GendoIkari; the full log shouldn't be visible. If you think it's necessary to know the full contents of your deck and discard pile at all times, you're taking this game too seriously.

I enjoy getting mostly matched against worse players. I like winning most of my games. And then sometimes I get matched against a better player and have a more challenging game. That's fun too.

I would like a way to have auto-matched games and see more new cards. Honestly that's probably the thing that would most increase my personal enjoyment of games: more granular Kingdom randomization options. Although I think as a matter of general priority, I'd still prefer the game to have more useful animations and interfaces. It's pretty sad that you still have to use the log to perform actions, 18 months out from release.
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Re: Why I'm quitting Dominion for the foreseeable future (not satire)
« Reply #9 on: July 06, 2018, 12:53:05 pm »
+1

First of all, enjoy your hiatus. I hope you rediscover what you enjoyed about Dominion. You will be missed. In the meantime, maybe someone else will carry Pooka's torch for you.


7) Donald X. has been talking about each new expansion being diminishing returns because you only get to see the new cards so often when there are 300 other cards in the pool, and with the release of Nocturne, I think we finally passed some kind of a threshold for me where I feel like it actually didn't really contribute very much towards making the overall game more interesting. I still have a lot of Nocturne cards that I suck at playing, and I think that's mostly just because a lot of kingdoms just have the same old cards that I can already wrap my head around and the Nocturne stuff doesn't show up all that much. This is not really even a problem per say, but some kind of a standardized format (that you could automatch for) that leaves out some of the older expansions certainly wouldn't hurt.

I think that, perhaps, a lot of these issues stem from the fact that Dominion was not designed to be played at the level that top players are playing it. Which is not to say that top players are doing anything wrong. It's just a reality.

If Dominion was geared toward competitive play, you could have a "rolling release" schedule with cards moving and out of the pool to change the meta. Of course, you could do something like that in the Dominion League, for example, without Donald X.'s involvement, but it wouldn't be the same as having designed choices.
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Awaclus

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Re: Why I'm quitting Dominion for the foreseeable future (not satire)
« Reply #10 on: July 06, 2018, 01:19:09 pm »
+2

That’s the game of Dominion as it was designed. You may prefer to play a variant where deck tracking is allowed, but that is a variant.

Well, if I'm complaining about the game having an undesirable quality, I don't think it's a very good counterargument to say that it's supposed to have that undesirable quality. As far as I'm concerned, the memory game element isn't necessarily difficult, it just requires multitasking which makes the game needlessly more stressful. For quite a while now, my focus in regards to trying to improve at Dominion (as well as the focus of a couple of articles that I wrote) hasn't been on trying to figure out how to make better decisions, it has been on trying to figure out how to make it easier and less taxing for my brain to make pretty decent decisions. Trying to improve like that has been fun, but the practical reality of still having a headache every time I play a 6-game match in one go hasn't been quite as fun.

I hope you come back.

okay bye

Oh, no, I didn't say I'm quitting f.ds (or the Discord for that matter). I haven't really been playing the game for the past three months anyway, didn't stop me from posting.
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Holunder9

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Re: Why I'm quitting Dominion for the foreseeable future (not satire)
« Reply #11 on: July 06, 2018, 01:30:12 pm »
0

Well, if I'm complaining about the game having an undesirable quality, I don't think it's a very good counterargument to say that it's supposed to have that undesirable quality.
If Dominion had been a computer game that later got implemented as card game (and, to pick out LFN's point, if in addition to that the game had not been designed as family game but as game for hardcore gamers) this would be valid criticism.
But as it is the other way around and as no card game that I know allows you to track decks with tools this is a dubious argument.
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Re: Why I'm quitting Dominion for the foreseeable future (not satire)
« Reply #12 on: July 06, 2018, 01:33:46 pm »
0

no card game that I know allows you to track decks with tools
A digression, but techniques for tracking decks in Pandemic have always been tacitly allowed, and then were explicitly encouraged in Pandemic Legacy Season Two.
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markusin

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Re: Why I'm quitting Dominion for the foreseeable future (not satire)
« Reply #13 on: July 06, 2018, 01:39:35 pm »
+3

That’s the game of Dominion as it was designed. You may prefer to play a variant where deck tracking is allowed, but that is a variant.

Well, if I'm complaining about the game having an undesirable quality, I don't think it's a very good counterargument to say that it's supposed to have that undesirable quality. As far as I'm concerned, the memory game element isn't necessarily difficult, it just requires multitasking which makes the game needlessly more stressful. For quite a while now, my focus in regards to trying to improve at Dominion (as well as the focus of a couple of articles that I wrote) hasn't been on trying to figure out how to make better decisions, it has been on trying to figure out how to make it easier and less taxing for my brain to make pretty decent decisions. Trying to improve like that has been fun, but the practical reality of still having a headache every time I play a 6-game match in one go hasn't been quite as fun.

I hope you come back.

okay bye

Oh, no, I didn't say I'm quitting f.ds (or the Discord for that matter). I haven't really been playing the game for the past three months anyway, didn't stop me from posting.

Oh man, 6-game matches are absolutely exhausting. Expect at least 2 hours of play and each game having long turns due to thinking because of the stakes. And then you have to find time for that once a week. League is a big stress in my eyes.

The bigger concern for me with the client quality is the relatively stagnant progress it has been making towards improvement. It maybe can't be helped give the current state of ShuffleIT. One thing I have to give credit for to Prismata, they seem to have put a lot of effort into getting their timer system right.
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trivialknot

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Re: Why I'm quitting Dominion for the foreseeable future (not satire)
« Reply #14 on: July 06, 2018, 01:48:59 pm »
+1

Good for you.  Prismata is a great game too.

Since I only play casually and offline, obviously most of these problems don't really affect me (although offline play can be slow for its own reasons).  I can see them being a big bother though.
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werothegreat

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Re: Why I'm quitting Dominion for the foreseeable future (not satire)
« Reply #15 on: July 06, 2018, 04:10:47 pm »
+2

That’s the game of Dominion as it was designed. You may prefer to play a variant where deck tracking is allowed, but that is a variant.

Well, if I'm complaining about the game having an undesirable quality, I don't think it's a very good counterargument to say that it's supposed to have that undesirable quality. As far as I'm concerned, the memory game element isn't necessarily difficult, it just requires multitasking which makes the game needlessly more stressful.

I mean, maybe undesirable to you. I like that you have to remember what you put in your deck. It means you have to pay attention. Part of the fun of IRL is going "wait do I have enough points to win? Fuck it I'll buy the province anyway" and you lose that online even with just the VP tracker. If you had perfect info the game would just be mindlessly clicking buttons.
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Re: Why I'm quitting Dominion for the foreseeable future (not satire)
« Reply #16 on: July 06, 2018, 04:41:56 pm »
+7

If you had perfect info the game would just be mindlessly clicking buttons.

Do you really believe this?

Surely the quality of Dominion as a game does not depend on those playing it having fallible memory.
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Re: Why I'm quitting Dominion for the foreseeable future (not satire)
« Reply #17 on: July 06, 2018, 04:44:06 pm »
+4

That’s the game of Dominion as it was designed. You may prefer to play a variant where deck tracking is allowed, but that is a variant.

Well, if I'm complaining about the game having an undesirable quality, I don't think it's a very good counterargument to say that it's supposed to have that undesirable quality. As far as I'm concerned, the memory game element isn't necessarily difficult, it just requires multitasking which makes the game needlessly more stressful.

I mean, maybe undesirable to you. I like that you have to remember what you put in your deck. It means you have to pay attention. Part of the fun of IRL is going "wait do I have enough points to win? Fuck it I'll buy the province anyway" and you lose that online even with just the VP tracker. If you had perfect info the game would just be mindlessly clicking buttons.

I personally don’t have fun guessing on what’s supposed to be a 100% decision; I have fun planning strategy, spotting tactics, and ocassionally, getting a thrill from the uncertainity of randomness. Also, how would perfect info = mindless clicking? Perfect info doesn’t eliminate any of the planning of Dominion; if anything, it expands it.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Why I'm quitting Dominion for the foreseeable future (not satire)
« Reply #18 on: July 06, 2018, 05:13:19 pm »
+1

Whether Dominion would be better or worse if it had perfect tracking is not the point. That’s a completely opinion-based personal preference. But as an implementation of a game that doesn’t have perfect tracking; the online implementation is worse at implementing that game for having it.
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Re: Why I'm quitting Dominion for the foreseeable future (not satire)
« Reply #19 on: July 06, 2018, 05:17:48 pm »
+2

If you had perfect info the game would just be mindlessly clicking buttons.

Chess and Go (and, well, Prismata) feel sad.
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Re: Why I'm quitting Dominion for the foreseeable future (not satire)
« Reply #20 on: July 06, 2018, 05:31:50 pm »
+14

I've been considering taking up online Dominion. So, this could all work out perfectly.
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Re: Why I'm quitting Dominion for the foreseeable future (not satire)
« Reply #21 on: July 06, 2018, 05:48:01 pm »
0

If you had perfect info the game would just be mindlessly clicking buttons.

Chess and Go (and, well, Prismata) feel sad.

Dominion is not a positional war simulator.  It's a deckbuilder.
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Re: Why I'm quitting Dominion for the foreseeable future (not satire)
« Reply #22 on: July 06, 2018, 06:27:28 pm »
+8

7) Donald X. has been talking about each new expansion being diminishing returns because you only get to see the new cards so often when there are 300 other cards in the pool,
He hasn't! That is not a thing he says or has said.

You get diminishing returns because the new expansions add variety, and you already have tons of variety.

It's easy to play with five new cards in each game, or whatever, if that's what you want.
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Re: Why I'm quitting Dominion for the foreseeable future (not satire)
« Reply #23 on: July 06, 2018, 09:41:04 pm »
0

7) Donald X. has been talking about each new expansion being diminishing returns because you only get to see the new cards so often when there are 300 other cards in the pool,
He hasn't! That is not a thing he says or has said.

You get diminishing returns because the new expansions add variety, and you already have tons of variety.

It's easy to play with five new cards in each game, or whatever, if that's what you want.

IRL it’s easy, you mean? Or are there features for Dominion Online that I’m unaware of?
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Re: Why I'm quitting Dominion for the foreseeable future (not satire)
« Reply #24 on: July 06, 2018, 10:10:34 pm »
+2

IRL it’s easy, you mean? Or are there features for Dominion Online that I’m unaware of?
I meant IRL - so far I have merely considered playing online - but online you can checkbox two expansions at a time if you want, the new one and whatever, and rotate the non-new one. Which is what I did when testing online Nocturne. Or of course you can use an app to generate a list and then manually enter it. More options would be nice but these games can be played.
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Re: Why I'm quitting Dominion for the foreseeable future (not satire)
« Reply #25 on: July 06, 2018, 10:28:19 pm »
+2

I think that, perhaps, a lot of these issues stem from the fact that Dominion was not designed to be played at the level that top players are playing it. Which is not to say that top players are doing anything wrong. It's just a reality.

Well, this is the crux of the issue, isn't it? For many of us, strategic depth is what makes games fun. A large part of that is that a game withstands repeated playings and attempts to find optimal strategies and plays -- in other words, that playing the game to win presents a deep and intellectually stimulating task. Compare chess and go, for instance. They've survived for so long and are revered precisely because they possess this quality.

It is clear that Dominion as played competitively -- 2 players, all expansions, random kingdoms -- has a lot of strategic depth. But I am becoming convinced that is mostly a happy accident. For instance, Nocturne wasn't even really playtested with 2 players, as we discussed in a previous thread.  Further, certain things seem to break down around the edges when you start to conceive of Dominion as a competitive game, from overly swingy cards to the totally arbitrary rule against checking the contents of your discard pile. And these introduce undesirable qualities from the perspective of someone who desires a deep, well-tuned game of skill. (I suppose I should expand on the log and discard pile issue. I, and I would guess Awaclus, would like games to be more about making good strategic decisions than memory. If I want to test my memory, I have various other ways of doing that. The "can't look at the discard rule" introduces what I perceive as an overly extreme and artificial barrier to making good decisions.)

So, one of the complaints is that Dominion does not play well as a game of skill at a high level, and your response is that of course that's true, because it wasn't designed that way. Then I think it is very fair for someone like Awalcus or myself to respond -- well, if that's the case, why should we keep playing it?

And I suppose the obvious response to this is to go elsewhere and play such games, if that's what we want. This seems to be Awalcus's conclusion, too. But I find the whole thing a little sad, because Dominion comes so, so close to being such a game -- so close that a healthy competitive community has sprung up nonetheless! -- that with a few small tweaks to the online client it could get it most of the way there (as Awalcus points out). It would also be nice to have these concerns on your radar during playtesting.


« Last Edit: July 06, 2018, 10:33:58 pm by phonological loop »
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Re: Why I'm quitting Dominion for the foreseeable future (not satire)
« Reply #26 on: July 06, 2018, 11:04:31 pm »
+4

It would also be nice to have these concerns on your radar during playtesting.

Concerns like, you want to be able to look at your discard pile? Sorry, that ship has sailed. Although in my IRL games, we allow each other to look through our discard piles on other people's turns (and our own if it's quick). The entire point of the rule forbidding looking through the discard is exactly so that players won't waste everybody else's time by constantly doing it. I guess it would be nice to have the ability to use that house rule in Dominion Online, but I think the people clamoring for it are the ones most likely to abuse it and slow games way down.

I don't think the strategic depth is an accident, happy or otherwise. The entire game is built around interesting card interactions, and I think that's where most of the depth springs from. I guess you could hypothesize that some parts were an accident. I'll do that now, in fact. It seems to me that the relative ease of drawing and trashing in Dominion is a big part of what makes it more strategic (as opposed to just being a tactical sort of game). You can actually build a reliable deck pretty often. From my limited experience, most other copycat deckbuilders make drawing and trashing much more expensive, and those games tend to be much more luck-driven affairs. So you could call it an "accident" that Dominion is this way. But based on the secret histories, it seems like it was a conscious decision based on how these things played out in real games; what was fun.
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phonological loop

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Re: Why I'm quitting Dominion for the foreseeable future (not satire)
« Reply #27 on: July 06, 2018, 11:44:56 pm »
0

It would also be nice to have these concerns on your radar during playtesting.

Concerns like, you want to be able to look at your discard pile? Sorry, that ship has sailed. Although in my IRL games, we allow each other to look through our discard piles on other people's turns (and our own if it's quick). The entire point of the rule forbidding looking through the discard is exactly so that players won't waste everybody else's time by constantly doing it. I guess it would be nice to have the ability to use that house rule in Dominion Online, but I think the people clamoring for it are the ones most likely to abuse it and slow games way down.

I didn't mean the discard pile rule when I wrote about playtesting. I was thinking more about keeping the concerns of "competitive" players in mind and considering how such cards would affect the standard "competitive" format I described above. For instance, are they too swingy or luck based? Do they lead to runaway leader scenarios? Are they stronger in 2-player games than in games with more players? (It's quite possible you do this already, but the whole "we didn't playtest Nocturne with 2 players" thing makes me wonder, you know?)

I agree it would be nice to able to see the discard pile in Dominion Online. The concern about slowing the game down could be solved by implementing an optional turn timer, as Awaclus suggested. If these options exist and are, well, optional, then everyone wins, right?


Quote
I don't think the strategic depth is an accident, happy or otherwise. The entire game is built around interesting card interactions, and I think that's where most of the depth springs from. I guess you could hypothesize that some parts were an accident. I'll do that now, in fact. It seems to me that the relative ease of drawing and trashing in Dominion is a big part of what makes it more strategic (as opposed to just being a tactical sort of game). You can actually build a reliable deck pretty often. From my limited experience, most other copycat deckbuilders make drawing and trashing much more expensive, and those games tend to be much more luck-driven affairs. So you could call it an "accident" that Dominion is this way. But based on the secret histories, it seems like it was a conscious decision based on how these things played out in real games; what was fun.

Perhaps depth in the sense of interesting card interactions is not an accident, but depth in the sense of holding up to scrutiny in the standard competitive 2-player format seems to be. The game designer and playtesters do not seem to have this format or audience in mind when designing cards and playtesting. To be specific, DVX saying he basically never plays 2 player games when playtesting makes me think his design goal is not at all to produce an optimally "competitive" game for 2 players. But this is what Awaclus and I are looking for, hence the complaining and the remark about "accidentally" (sort of) producing such a thing.
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Re: Why I'm quitting Dominion for the foreseeable future (not satire)
« Reply #28 on: July 06, 2018, 11:46:13 pm »
+3

An aside: when playing MTG (a highly competitive game), are you allowed to have a deck tracker?  When playing IRL, are you allowed to have a sheet of paper with your decklist on it?  Because I don't think I've ever seen a single MTG player do something like that.  Granted, I've seen Hearthstone streamers use them, but I think Hearthstone has been the butt of enough jokes about being "competitive".
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Re: Why I'm quitting Dominion for the foreseeable future (not satire)
« Reply #29 on: July 06, 2018, 11:47:59 pm »
0

No, but you can (if I recall correctly) look through your discard pile, which accomplishes much of the same purpose.
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Re: Why I'm quitting Dominion for the foreseeable future (not satire)
« Reply #30 on: July 07, 2018, 12:28:10 am »
+3

no card game that I know allows you to track decks with tools
A digression, but techniques for tracking decks in Pandemic have always been tacitly allowed, and then were explicitly encouraged in Pandemic Legacy Season Two.
Analagously, hand-tracking using a notepad and pen is allowed in MTG.  Of course, that is a "serious" game.  If Dominion simply isn't a "serious" game and should do work not to ever be one, then it makes sense that a veteran would quit it after playing it too much.  Generally the games you stick with even longer than Awaclus has stuck with Dominion are "serious".  Move notation is required in tournament chess, because it's the only way to track the 50 king move rule, even though chess is a "basic serious game" of sorts.

Sirlin encourages you to look through your discard pile and bag to figure out what's left when you play his Dominion, Puzzle Strike.  His viewpoints shouldn't be popular around here, but when you're insisting "nobody does this", then anybody works as a counterexample.

EDIT: Just saw wero's post.

Behavior reminiscent of note taking in MtG includes:

- You can look through either graveyard at any time
- When you use a card that happens to show your opponent's hand (Like Pillage), you can pause the game to jot down what cards are in your opponent's hand. 
- You can have notes that you wrote before the match began in your deckbox, and you can consult those notes between games.  You cannot consult those notes during games.  In tournament play you can change a few cards in your deck out for others, notes about that strategy are what will go in your deckbox.
- You can pause the game to ask a judge for the official rules text of any card.  You can do this even if the card hasn't been seen this game, you can do it just because you think someone MIGHT play that card this game.  (It'd be like, you could ask whether Relic is an attack or not just because Black Market and Peasant are in play)

The second happens even in relatively casual games and would be the most notable comparison.
Oh, so yeah, you cannot consult your decklist during a game.  Notes that were created before the match can only be viewed between games.  In tournament play you usually have your entire deck memorized, so it's not a big deal.  It's not as hard as it might seem, there's lots of duplicates, and if you have a card at all and you know it's a pretty good card, you know you brought 4 of it, the max that can be put in a deck.
« Last Edit: July 07, 2018, 12:36:51 am by popsofctown »
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Re: Why Awaclus is quitting Dominion (you can edit the text up here)
« Reply #31 on: July 07, 2018, 02:06:07 am »
+19

Perhaps depth in the sense of interesting card interactions is not an accident, but depth in the sense of holding up to scrutiny in the standard competitive 2-player format seems to be.
The correct way to put down my work on Dominion's strategic depth is to note that strategic depth is in fact easy to come by. It's easy! Like, Go has it. It's like Godel's Incompleteness Theorem; any sufficiently complex game will have strategic depth. I didn't lay down on the job, thank you very much, but, it wasn't a struggle either. You have a nice amount of agency as a player; the cards interact so that power levels vary; enough is sufficiently obscured that there's stuff to figure out. Even when a card is very strong, there's enough to what you're doing that there's still a game.

The game designer and playtesters do not seem to have this format or audience in mind when designing cards and playtesting.
Your face doesn't seem to have this format or audience in mind.

Day one of any game, I don't know how many players it will handle, but typically aim for 3-5, because odds are on any given evening I'll have 3-5 players and well I want to be able to play the game and not kick someone out. If it then turns out to only work with 4, or whatever, well, that's how it went. In Dominion's case it works with 2-5 (and then the publisher supports 6 because that's how it goes); cards vary in power level as the player count varies, but you can aim for 3 and do pretty well on 2-4, and the people who play with 5 know what they're getting into. The game isn't horribly warped with 2 players, as you can tell by say the existence of these forums.

For some cards, the 2-player game is specifically an issue; somehow in those cases I don't just laugh at how those players will suck it up. Would you believe. And the feedback isn't that oops I just always blow it there. I mean like, it's *checks* season 28 of the league. Some people are having fun with 2-player Dominion (yes, or we'll be seeing a lot of these threads, oh man, 28 seasons was the breaking point). And I mean if no-one was I would be bummed out, but I can deal with any given individual being dissatisfied. Like I always say, it didn't win game of the year in Austria.
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Re: Why I'm quitting Dominion for the foreseeable future (not satire)
« Reply #32 on: July 07, 2018, 03:56:27 am »
+7

I will say that Dominion taking too long online has become an issue for me. I don't play in League and am not all that bothered by rating, but like to play rated games so I can play against people of roughly the same skill. But sometimes games just drag on and take forever and I play less now as a result.

I got into Dominion in a big way after playing it IRL (where only a single game would be played and take 40 mins but that's fine because it's IRL and you're socialising) and I found WanderingWinder's videos on YouTube. I think I watched all of them! Yes there are hundreds and I watched them all. Games were often pretty fast and it was great. I also used to watch League matches. But for a while now League match sets of 6 can have videos that are close to 3 hours, and I'm sure there was a final that was almost 4 hours! Who has time for this? Watching it is boring now. Long periods of time in the middle of games where nothing happens.

Dominion's original appeal to me was speed and simplicity on the surface but deep strategy underneath. But sitting staring at a screen of cards with nothing happening is dull. I think Dominion would be better online if there was a clock. Sometimes it would mean people were forced to rush and make suboptimal plays, well that's fine. Intuition is a skill too. Long turns and overthinking might be fun for some, but it is not fun to play against, and also very dull to watch.
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Awaclus

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Re: Why I'm quitting Dominion for the foreseeable future (not satire)
« Reply #33 on: July 07, 2018, 04:07:33 am »
0

An aside: when playing MTG (a highly competitive game), are you allowed to have a deck tracker?  When playing IRL, are you allowed to have a sheet of paper with your decklist on it?  Because I don't think I've ever seen a single MTG player do something like that.  Granted, I've seen Hearthstone streamers use them, but I think Hearthstone has been the butt of enough jokes about being "competitive".

I never felt like I needed a reference of my decklist when playing MTG. It's the same deck every time, and by the time you're good enough at playing it, you'll definitely have the entire decklist memorized because most likely it's just 4 copies of 15 different cards anyway, all of which you deliberately chose to include in your deck to serve a purpose. It's not like in Dominion where you have a different deck every turn and it usually has all sorts of stuff that you only put into your deck because you couldn't get what you wanted under the circumstances, and a lot of the time you even draw a very large percentage of your deck every turn, making it especially important to know what's in it.

Really, if you wanted to make a fair comparison with MTG in this regard, you should ask "when playing MTG, are you allowed to see the entire battlefield, or do you have to turn most of it face down and just try to remember what cards you have in play".
« Last Edit: July 07, 2018, 04:08:34 am by Awaclus »
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phonological loop

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Re: Why Awaclus is quitting Dominion (you can edit the text up here)
« Reply #34 on: July 07, 2018, 04:13:14 am »
0

Perhaps depth in the sense of interesting card interactions is not an accident, but depth in the sense of holding up to scrutiny in the standard competitive 2-player format seems to be.
The correct way to put down my work on Dominion's strategic depth is to note that strategic depth is in fact easy to come by. It's easy! Like, Go has it. It's like Godel's Incompleteness Theorem; any sufficiently complex game will have strategic depth. I didn't lay down on the job, thank you very much, but, it wasn't a struggle either. You have a nice amount of agency as a player; the cards interact so that power levels vary; enough is sufficiently obscured that there's stuff to figure out. Even when a card is very strong, there's enough to what you're doing that there's still a game.

I'm not trying to put down your game! It's a good game! I play it regularly, have nearly all the expansions, and care enough to argue about it on an online message board. The point I am trying to make is that (correct me if I'm wrong!) you don't go out of your way to tailor things to to the "hardcore" or "competitive" crowd, and your modal Dominion experience is in fact more casual 3-4 players games. (And don't get me wrong, I like those kinds of games too!) And consequently, you make certain decisions that might not be optimal from the perspective of someone wanting the card game equivalent of no items, Fox only, Final Destination.

Quote
For some cards, the 2-player game is specifically an issue; somehow in those cases I don't just laugh at how those players will suck it up. Would you believe. And the feedback isn't that oops I just always blow it there. I mean like, it's *checks* season 28 of the league. Some people are having fun with 2-player Dominion (yes, or we'll be seeing a lot of these threads, oh man, 28 seasons was the breaking point). And I mean if no-one was I would be bummed out, but I can deal with any given individual being dissatisfied. Like I always say, it didn't win game of the year in Austria.

Well, I have fun at least. Awaclus's point is that we'd probably have more fun if an optional turn timer was included and the client was made faster. This seems reasonable to me.
« Last Edit: July 07, 2018, 04:14:50 am by phonological loop »
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popsofctown

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Re: Why I'm quitting Dominion for the foreseeable future (not satire)
« Reply #35 on: July 07, 2018, 04:53:08 am »
0

An aside: when playing MTG (a highly competitive game), are you allowed to have a deck tracker?  When playing IRL, are you allowed to have a sheet of paper with your decklist on it?  Because I don't think I've ever seen a single MTG player do something like that.  Granted, I've seen Hearthstone streamers use them, but I think Hearthstone has been the butt of enough jokes about being "competitive".

I never felt like I needed a reference of my decklist when playing MTG. It's the same deck every time, and by the time you're good enough at playing it, you'll definitely have the entire decklist memorized because most likely it's just 4 copies of 15 different cards anyway, all of which you deliberately chose to include in your deck to serve a purpose. It's not like in Dominion where you have a different deck every turn and it usually has all sorts of stuff that you only put into your deck because you couldn't get what you wanted under the circumstances, and a lot of the time you even draw a very large percentage of your deck every turn, making it especially important to know what's in it.

Really, if you wanted to make a fair comparison with MTG in this regard, you should ask "when playing MTG, are you allowed to see the entire battlefield, or do you have to turn most of it face down and just try to remember what cards you have in play".

If you expose a facedown morph card temporarily, you're not allowed to late explain that the card's identity is derivable information, and ask to look at it again.

Buuuut nothing stops you from jotting down the name of the card on a piece of paper, just like the thing with peeking at someone's hand.

So, yeah.  Mtg very much does not require you to use memory as a mechanic.
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Re: Why I'm quitting Dominion for the foreseeable future (not satire)
« Reply #36 on: July 07, 2018, 07:55:33 am »
+8

Kieran's post is the one I agree with most here. The culture of thinking it's okay to spend several minutes thinking through actions at the top level has significantly hurt my own online experience, especially since having a kid. It gets harder to justify playing by the day.

For the record, if I had my choice of timer, no joke, i'd probably set it to 1 minute total down time pet turn for each player. I agree very much with the sentiment, "if someone makes a suboptimal play, so be it."
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Re: Why I'm quitting Dominion for the foreseeable future (not satire)
« Reply #37 on: July 07, 2018, 08:53:19 am »
+1

...and I found WanderingWinder's videos on YouTube. I think I watched all of them! Yes there are hundreds and I watched them all.

Can realate 100% :)

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Re: Why I'm quitting Dominion for the foreseeable future (not satire)
« Reply #38 on: July 07, 2018, 09:07:09 am »
0

jsh, what are your matchmaking parameters set at? If you play worse players, there tends to be much lesss downtime.
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Re: Why I'm quitting Dominion for the foreseeable future (not satire)
« Reply #39 on: July 07, 2018, 09:59:32 am »
+2

jsh, what are your matchmaking parameters set at? If you play worse players, there tends to be much lesss downtime.

I'm a top level player, and I'm not a baby. I'd like to play people around my level. But it would be cool if I could play them faster.
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crj

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Re: Why I'm quitting Dominion for the foreseeable future (not satire)
« Reply #40 on: July 07, 2018, 10:12:57 am »
+2

Hive is an awesome game. Simple rules, zero luck, no hidden state, quick setup, lovely pieces, incredibly deep strategy and tactics, 100% bulletproof rules, optimised for two players. The best such game to be released in the past five centuries.

I love it to bits, and wholeheartedly recommend it.

I especially recommend it to the people who seem to want Dominion to be that. Dominion supports more than two players and adds a bit of luck and a bit of memorisation to the mix. Dominion is not Hive; Dominion is a different game I also love to bits, in a different way, for different reasons.
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Re: Why I'm quitting Dominion for the foreseeable future (not satire)
« Reply #41 on: July 07, 2018, 12:46:46 pm »
+3

I'm not trying to put down your game!
I didn't say you were putting down Dominion. You were putting down my work on Dominion. And that's what I said.

The point I am trying to make is that (correct me if I'm wrong!) you don't go out of your way to tailor things to to the "hardcore" or "competitive" crowd, and your modal Dominion experience is in fact more casual 3-4 players games.
You're wrong; that isn't the point you were trying to make. Hey, it's an Awaclus thread.
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Re: Why I'm quitting Dominion for the foreseeable future (not satire)
« Reply #42 on: July 07, 2018, 12:57:26 pm »
0

I am confused by what this thread is becoming.
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Re: Why I'm quitting Dominion for the foreseeable future (not satire)
« Reply #43 on: July 07, 2018, 01:15:44 pm »
+3

I am confused by what this thread is becoming.

Why? Are you new here?
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Re: Why I'm quitting Dominion for the foreseeable future (not satire)
« Reply #44 on: July 07, 2018, 01:33:41 pm »
0

Getting tired of Dominion after (tens of?) thousands of games of Dominion is a testament to how good a game it is and how well the game can hold up over time.

I have definitely taken breaks from Dominion because of the lackluster (to put it mildly) online implementations of the past several years, so I sympathize with some of your points. But the existence of even a bad online implementation is also why I’ve played so many games myself when many of my friends have given up the game for good.
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phonological loop

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Re: Why I'm quitting Dominion for the foreseeable future (not satire)
« Reply #45 on: July 07, 2018, 02:31:29 pm »
+2

I'm not trying to put down your game!
I didn't say you were putting down Dominion. You were putting down my work on Dominion. And that's what I said.

I'm not putting down your work on Dominion! I'm saying, as LastFootnote said on the last page, that it (and the online client?) was "not designed to be played at the level that top players are playing it." This is why my first post in this thread quotes his. Further, I'm not making any value judgment about whether this is a good or bad thing. I'm just noting that LastFootnote hit the nail on the head, and this is why Awaclus appears to be unhappy.


The point I am trying to make is that (correct me if I'm wrong!) you don't go out of your way to tailor things to to the "hardcore" or "competitive" crowd, and your modal Dominion experience is in fact more casual 3-4 players games.
You're wrong; that isn't the point you were trying to make. Hey, it's an Awaclus thread.

What point do you think I am trying to make?
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Re: Why I'm quitting Dominion for the foreseeable future (not satire)
« Reply #46 on: July 07, 2018, 02:35:06 pm »
+6

Kieran's post is the one I agree with most here. The culture of thinking it's okay to spend several minutes thinking through actions at the top level has significantly hurt my own online experience, especially since having a kid. It gets harder to justify playing by the day.

For the record, if I had my choice of timer, no joke, i'd probably set it to 1 minute total down time pet turn for each player. I agree very much with the sentiment, "if someone makes a suboptimal play, so be it."

I don't think this is just a culture shift.  In Hinterlands and before, you could mostly autoplay your turns and then think about your buys.  It's a rare board where this is the case in modern full-random Dominion.  Adventures, Empires, and Nocturne significantly increased the number of meaningful decisions you can make on any particular turn.  Events (especially those that give +buy) and cards that have an immediate impact when bought (e.g. Villa, Night cards that are gained to hand) are the most noteworthy here.  Also, alternative VP (tons in Empires) generally increase game length.
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Re: Why I'm quitting Dominion for the foreseeable future (not satire)
« Reply #47 on: July 07, 2018, 04:15:13 pm »
0

I will say that Dominion taking too long online has become an issue for me. I don't play in League and am not all that bothered by rating, but like to play rated games so I can play against people of roughly the same skill. But sometimes games just drag on and take forever and I play less now as a result.
I played on BSW when it was just base game and 5 cards from Intrigue.  An opponent bought out most of the Laboratories, and many other +Card effects.  My turns were only 5s.  His were about 1.5 to 3 minutes.  That was a sucky game for me, not much I could do about that.  But then he complained when I told him I'm going to be doing dishes or chores around the house since my turns were short.  If I get back just when it's my turn, then I'll move quickly.  Otherwise, I'm not going to sit around on the edge of my seat just for his whims.

Dominion's original appeal to me was speed and simplicity on the surface but deep strategy underneath. But sitting staring at a screen of cards with nothing happening is dull. I think Dominion would be better online if there was a clock. Sometimes it would mean people were forced to rush and make suboptimal plays, well that's fine. Intuition is a skill too. Long turns and overthinking might be fun for some, but it is not fun to play against, and also very dull to watch.
I do know a few people who will only play IRL Dom. if the games are quick.  Some cases of "quick" are a bit extreme, but I was in a different room when I was shocked to hear a 3p games with the newly released Dark Ages exp. took 1.5 hours to play!  The newcomers took A LONG time to read through and reread many of the cards.  In that time in a different room, we played two games of Ticket To Ride!  (Nordic Countries, and can't remember the other exp.).  For reference, it should be the other way around :p
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Re: Why I'm quitting Dominion for the foreseeable future (not satire)
« Reply #48 on: July 07, 2018, 04:18:22 pm »
0

I'm 100% with GendoIkari; the full log shouldn't be visible. If you think it's necessary to know the full contents of your deck and discard pile at all times, you're taking this game too seriously.
Although I agree with not having the full log visible at all times, "too seriously" is still something that's in the eye of the beholder. 
For some, rankings of all the cards could constitute that.
Or visiting ANY online forums to find out more about Dominion could constitute that (let alone this site).

Or insisting that someone NOT buy a Woodcutter, or that extra Copper (no, not a Gardens game).  This happened in an actual game where one Dom. vet explained why that was a bad idea.  The group he was in was so casual, they just wanted to go through the motions for themselves, and not even be bogged down by such minutia.  The group will likely never ascend to any sort of decent players, but they have fun, treating Dom. more like a party/social game than a euro/engine/optimization game.


Kieran's post is the one I agree with most here. The culture of thinking it's okay to spend several minutes thinking through actions at the top level has significantly hurt my own online experience, especially since having a kid. It gets harder to justify playing by the day.

For the record, if I had my choice of timer, no joke, i'd probably set it to 1 minute total down time pet turn for each player. I agree very much with the sentiment, "if someone makes a suboptimal play, so be it."

I'd be more inclined to use a chess clock.  It's all relative.  Towards midgame is when things tend to slow down.  I had one 4p game where one strong player who played quick otherwise took a few minutes in a midgame turn, apologizing profusely.  I didn't blame him, nor did anybody else.  He had around $26, multiple Buys, and no Coppers in play to enable buying Grand Markets, so it was crucial to work out how much he should "green", "engine", or in what combo (e.g. more GM, get a Platinum, Colony vs. Province and use the remainder towards a better card, etc.)
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Re: Why I'm quitting Dominion for the foreseeable future (not satire)
« Reply #49 on: July 07, 2018, 04:22:58 pm »
+10

The point I am trying to make is that (correct me if I'm wrong!) you don't go out of your way to tailor things to to the "hardcore" or "competitive" crowd, and your modal Dominion experience is in fact more casual 3-4 players games.
You're wrong; that isn't the point you were trying to make. Hey, it's an Awaclus thread.

What point do you think I am trying to make?

Let me explain the joke to make it funnier. You said "The point I am trying to make is that (correct me if I'm wrong!)...", which Donald X. jokingly interpreted as meaning "Correct me if I'm wrong, but the point I am trying to make is that..." i.e. as though the part about correcting you was referring to you stating that you were trying to make that point, as opposed to referring to the actual point that you were trying to make. One of the reasons why the joke is particularly funny in this context is that it's the kind of a joke that I like to make, and Donald X. made it in my thread.
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Re: Why I'm quitting Dominion for the foreseeable future (satire)
« Reply #50 on: July 07, 2018, 04:52:08 pm »
+5

I'm not putting down your work on Dominion!

Perhaps depth in the sense of interesting card interactions is not an accident, but depth in the sense of holding up to scrutiny in the standard competitive 2-player format seems to be.
It turns out that when you say that something that someone accomplished seems to be an accident, that's putting down their work.

It feels, somehow, like I've spent years and years trying to make sure that Dominion expansions are both fun and strategic. It's even clear that the biggest mistakes are cards that didn't get much scrutiny - last-minute changes, early cards that were never reconsidered. Well - I am helplessly accurate - the biggest mistakes in terms of strategic play. There are mistakes along the lines of "this is too complex" that weren't last-minute. I've had lots of help so actually you are putting down all those people too. Anything any of us accomplishes: just an accident.

Yes, I don't play much with two players; man, therefore all this work is doing nothing for the two-player experience? Your mom was doing nothing for the two-player experience, last night.

Maybe you just don't have any idea how multiplayer Dominion goes. It's not like, this game there's Fishing Village / Wharf, therefore everyone divides up those cards evenly. You get to build the 2-player versions of decks plenty. And deciding not to Duchy dance, because there's a third player who may just randomly end it, doesn't mean that therefore any endgame joy the game has was randomly generated.

Anyway. I'm not here at f.ds to praise myself; that's not my idea of a good time. I've made plenty of mistakes, such as getting into this discussion, and certainly gotten lucky some too. Just think it's all an accident if that's a good time for you. A lot of 2-player Dominion gets played somehow, but hey there's the anthropic principle: if the game didn't somehow have strategy we wouldn't be here at dominionstrategy.com talking about it. And anyone who wants to know how good of a job I did should certainly not be asking me; I have something at stake there and so am biased.
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Re: Why I'm quitting Dominion for the foreseeable future (not satire)
« Reply #51 on: July 07, 2018, 08:32:01 pm »
0

I still have a lot of Nocturne cards that I suck at playing, and I think that's mostly just because a lot of kingdoms just have the same old cards that I can already wrap my head around and the Nocturne stuff doesn't show up all that much. This is not really even a problem per say, but some kind of a standardized format (that you could automatch for) that leaves out some of the older expansions certainly wouldn't hurt.

IRL it’s easy, you mean? Or are there features for Dominion Online that I’m unaware of?
I meant IRL - so far I have merely considered playing online - but online you can checkbox two expansions at a time if you want, the new one and whatever, and rotate the non-new one. Which is what I did when testing online Nocturne. Or of course you can use an app to generate a list and then manually enter it. More options would be nice but these games can be played.

I suppose now would be a good time to bring back up my Google Spreadsheet of Nocturne Card Sets. Pick the number of Nocturne cards you want, and ten options of random Nocturne cards will appear. Copy a random row and paste into the kingdom selector, and your board will have at least however many Nocturne cards. The lists refresh every 5 minutes with ten new sets of random cards.

Of course, this doesn't satisfy Awaclus's desire for being used in automatch, but it would work for League matches (as long as both players agree, of course).
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phonological loop

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Re: Why I'm quitting Dominion for the foreseeable future (satire)
« Reply #52 on: July 08, 2018, 01:19:29 am »
+2

I'm not putting down your work on Dominion!

Perhaps depth in the sense of interesting card interactions is not an accident, but depth in the sense of holding up to scrutiny in the standard competitive 2-player format seems to be.
It turns out that when you say that something that someone accomplished seems to be an accident, that's putting down their work.

I'm sorry, that was not the best choice of words. As I said, I enjoy the game, I think it's well designed, and it is not at all my intention to put down the work that went into it.

Let me try to rephrase things. It seems agreed that you do not attempt to hyper-optimize the game for "competitive" play (2-player, random kingdom, etc.), or for the tastes of a certain brand of "competitive" player (as opposed to say, the way Blizzard and Wizards try to optimize Starcraft 2 and Magic, respectively, with an absurd amount of 2-player testing under competition rules.) I realize I'm being a little vague here, but think of the MtG "Spike" psychotype, or David Sirlin of "play to win" fame.

This is fine! I'm not making any value judgments. It's your game and you can shape it as you see fit, and arguing about how people "ought" to conceive of games is like arguing about what your favorite color ought to be. I think it's a great achievement that Dominion produces interesting and diverse games even when played competitively (and also when not!), as not many games do (and even fewer are as fun).

But nonetheless, your goal is not solely to optimize the game for competitive play. So someone looking for a such a game is never going to be 100% satisfied. There will always things about the game and the client that could be tweaked to optimize things for "Spike," but were not in order to serve another element of your design philosophy. And this explains the OP of the thread (echoing LastFootnote).

Do you think this is a reasonable take?

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Donald X.

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Re: Why I'm quitting Dominion for the foreseeable future (not satire)
« Reply #53 on: July 08, 2018, 01:47:00 am »
+1

Let me try to rephrase things. It seems agreed that you do not attempt to hyper-optimize the game for "competitive" play (2-player, random kingdom, etc.), or for the tastes of a certain brand of "competitive" player (as opposed to say, the way Blizzard and Wizards try to optimize Starcraft 2 and Magic, respectively, with an absurd amount of 2-player testing under competition rules.)
I don't know about Blizzard, but Wizards both puts tons of effort into making the game good for non-Spike players, and also endlessly reminds people that they can't figure out the formats the way that the serious players will the day a new set comes out. You are underrating the work they put into not-Spike, and overrating their ability (and thus attempt) to hyper-optimize. In fact right now, Standard (the "play with the most recent 2 years of cards" format) has 7 banned cards - mistakes only caught once they saw what happened in tournaments with real players.

But nonetheless, your goal is not solely to optimize the game for competitive play. So someone looking for a such a game is never going to be 100% satisfied. There will always things about the game and the client that could be tweaked to optimize things for "Spike," but were not in order to serve another element of your design philosophy. And this explains the OP of the thread (echoing LastFootnote).

Do you think this is a reasonable take?
No.

Any given individual may not be satisfied, for whatever personal reasons. If you have perfect information some ultra-competitive people will hate that; if you don't some ultra-competitive people will hate that. Also non-ultra-competitive people will hate both things. You can't please everyone on every point. It's nuts to think that all Spikes want the same things, and it's nuts to think that you have go all out for Spike or Spike won't be happy.
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phonological loop

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Re: Why I'm quitting Dominion for the foreseeable future (not satire)
« Reply #54 on: July 08, 2018, 02:27:15 am »
0

Well, Blizzard is perhaps a better example. I actually don't know much about MtG these days (cf. my incorrect comment about note taking earlier in the thread); I haven't played for years and years. Old Mark Rosewater columns gave me the impression that making the game play well competitively was a top priority. This does not imply they can't also have other design goals in mind, or that they're perfect. I would be surprised if there was not extensive 2-player playtesting under tournament-esque rules today, with some consideration of how each card might affect the competitive meta-game, but I'm happy to be corrected on this point.

The situation is somewhat different there in that a "Timmy" or "Johnny" card can exist parallel to the competitive scene in a way a "swingy" or otherwise competitively undesirable card can't exist outside of all expansions, full random, Fox only, etc., but the solution here is probably to come up with a better competitive Dominion format that excludes such cards. Then everyone's happy.


Any given individual may not be satisfied, for whatever personal reasons. If you have perfect information some ultra-competitive people will hate that; if you don't some ultra-competitive people will hate that. Also non-ultra-competitive people will hate both things. You can't please everyone on every point.

I agree with this.

Quote
It's nuts to think that all Spikes want the same things, and it's nuts to think that you have go all out for Spike or Spike won't be happy.

I don't agree with this. The players I'm talking about -- let's call them "Sirlins," since you think "Spikes" is too broad -- do want mostly the same things and share a certain broad game design philosophy. For instance, when I read Awaclus posts I understand immediately the place he is coming from (though I also enjoy my casual multiplayer games, thank you very much). I've met several people in real life with basically the same gaming philosophy.

(As an aside, I would be very interested in a description of the psychology of "Spikes" who are not "Sirlins." Perhaps I would better understand the distinction you're drawing.)

It is my impression that such people are generally very detail-oriented and find any deviation from certain Platonic competitive ideals off-putting, and have played enough games that they're quick to find and call out such deviations. (The lack of a turn timer in Dominion Online is possibly one example; it's often thought that competitive chess is a better game in virtue having a time limit, and the ability to select different time limits from "blitz" to G90 or beyond. I don't want to necessarily defend this idea, but I do want to point out that a "competitive" person of the kind I'm thinking of will find the idea of unlimited turn time a little weird.)
« Last Edit: July 08, 2018, 02:29:49 am by phonological loop »
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markusin

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Re: Why I'm quitting Dominion for the foreseeable future (not satire)
« Reply #55 on: July 08, 2018, 09:15:22 am »
+1

Quote
It's nuts to think that all Spikes want the same things, and it's nuts to think that you have go all out for Spike or Spike won't be happy.

I don't agree with this. The players I'm talking about -- let's call them "Sirlins," since you think "Spikes" is too broad -- do want mostly the same things and share a certain broad game design philosophy. For instance, when I read Awaclus posts I understand immediately the place he is coming from (though I also enjoy my casual multiplayer games, thank you very much). I've met several people in real life with basically the same gaming philosophy.

(As an aside, I would be very interested in a description of the psychology of "Spikes" who are not "Sirlins." Perhaps I would better understand the distinction you're drawing.)

It is my impression that such people are generally very detail-oriented and find any deviation from certain Platonic competitive ideals off-putting, and have played enough games that they're quick to find and call out such deviations. (The lack of a turn timer in Dominion Online is possibly one example; it's often thought that competitive chess is a better game in virtue having a time limit, and the ability to select different time limits from "blitz" to G90 or beyond. I don't want to necessarily defend this idea, but I do want to point out that a "competitive" person of the kind I'm thinking of will find the idea of unlimited turn time a little weird.)

I think what separates people here is how much they are willing to play a game despite some mechanics they found undesirable. So as you describe, Sirlins are likely to quickly recognize mechanics that are at odds with the notion of competitive play. However, they may have very different ideas on what is a "deal breaker" and how long it takes to get burned out on a certain game. So, the extend that competitive players are willing to put up with first player imbalances can vary (aside: these days I pay a lot more attention to how games do or don't address first player advantage). And people still have preferences on where they like to focus their strategic efforts e.g. risk/reward vs. thinking ahead, even though this category of players recognizes all these possible sources of strategy.

Like, for all the issues Awaclus brought up, he has nevertheless played over 1000 games of Dominion Online according to the Dominion Scavenger leaderboard, though I don't know how many games of Prismata he has played.
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Re: Why I'm quitting Dominion for the foreseeable future (not satire)
« Reply #56 on: July 08, 2018, 09:27:39 am »
+1

Normally, I would expect either games or tournament formats to address first-player advantage. For example, chess has a small but noticeable first-player advantage (I think white tends to score about 55% in competitive play between players of the same level.) Thus chess tournaments have rules that address this; most standard Swiss formats, for example, have a rule that the greater the discrepancy between the number of whites and blacks you have had so far, the more important it is you get the colour you've had fewer of in the next game.
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Re: Why I'm quitting Dominion for the foreseeable future (not satire)
« Reply #57 on: July 08, 2018, 10:14:25 am »
+1

I don't think there is much difference between competitive and noncompetitive players from a design perspective.  I've seen a lot of people advocate that there is for a long time but the arguments have always proven weak.

Variance is not necessarily anticompetitive.  Poker gets taken very seriously and yet there is lots of variance.

You alluded to items in smash, but that isn't even necessarily an example of designer intent failing the competitive gamer.  Items were used in tournament smash for like two years or so, but the incident that got them banned was when a bobomb spawned in a location overlapping a fighter's body, making it detonate immediately and deciding the match.  The developers probably didn't actively want items to do that.
And on the other hand, lots of casual players dislike items.

Generally you should just make your game good and both casual and competitive people will like it.  Separate from that, there are some policy debates that are evenly divided, and those include things like taking notes, swiss versus brackets, acceptable sample size (maybe not that one, even) and some other stuff.  That doesn't really have to do with game design itself though.  Donald didn't print "Tomato Garden : Worth 4 VP if you have exactly 7 Silver".  The question of whether you whine about the guy who digs through his discard pile or inspects his deck then re-randomizes it to make perfect decisions, versus the guy who says he doesn't like putting stakes on the game if he can't get to do that, is separate and parallel.
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Re: Why I'm quitting Dominion for the foreseeable future (not satire)
« Reply #58 on: July 08, 2018, 03:10:01 pm »
+1

The situation is somewhat different there in that a "Timmy" or "Johnny" card can exist parallel to the competitive scene in a way a "swingy" or otherwise competitively undesirable card can't exist outside of all expansions, full random, Fox only, etc., but the solution here is probably to come up with a better competitive Dominion format that excludes such cards. Then everyone's happy.
When people bring up banning whatever cards, Mic Qsenoch speaks up to say, you guys want to ban all the fun cards. It's like all competitive players aren't identical in what they like!

Quote
It's nuts to think that all Spikes want the same things, and it's nuts to think that you have go all out for Spike or Spike won't be happy.
I don't agree with this.
Okay. I continue to be confident in my position but do not need to convince you.
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phonological loop

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Re: Why I'm quitting Dominion for the foreseeable future (not satire)
« Reply #59 on: July 08, 2018, 04:33:36 pm »
0

The situation is somewhat different there in that a "Timmy" or "Johnny" card can exist parallel to the competitive scene in a way a "swingy" or otherwise competitively undesirable card can't exist outside of all expansions, full random, Fox only, etc., but the solution here is probably to come up with a better competitive Dominion format that excludes such cards. Then everyone's happy.
When people bring up banning whatever cards, Mic Qsenoch speaks up to say, you guys want to ban all the fun cards. It's like all competitive players aren't identical in what they like!

Not all good players, or people who play competitively, have the psychology I described. Nor is it the case that all people with that psychology are clones of each other, just that they share enough opinions about gaming that such a classification is useful.

Further, based on direct experience I know there is faction of hardcore types with a certain "play to win, games as intellectual sport" disposition and with relatively homogeneous game design preferences, and that such types always find certain deviations from their ideals a little grating. Awalcus is one, on some days I am one, and I know more in real life. (Their preferences are homogeneous, by the way, because they're mostly learned from a shared set of previous competitive or "serious" games.) I'm not sure how many Awalcuses play Dominion, but I can assure you they're definitely out there.
« Last Edit: July 08, 2018, 04:40:15 pm by phonological loop »
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phonological loop

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Re: Why I'm quitting Dominion for the foreseeable future (not satire)
« Reply #60 on: July 08, 2018, 04:48:55 pm »
0

Normally, I would expect either games or tournament formats to address first-player advantage.

Indeed, and this is one of those canonical things that the players I am attempting (poorly) to describe look for. And DVX is on record saying that first player advantage doesn't exist in Dominion (albeit in a forum post from 2008: http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Turn_advantage).

Someone with the "Sirlin" mentality could probably accept the argument that first player advantage is small enough that the best solution is to switch sides in a tournament setting, or that any fixes have costs that outweigh the benefits. But a claim that it actually doesn't exist is going to make them a little uncomfortable.

To be clear, I don't want to get into a debate about whether Dominion has FPA here. I just point this out because it is a perfect example of there being a collection of players of a certain "competitive" mindset with relatively predictable preferences and concerns.

The question of whether you whine about the guy who digs through his discard pile or inspects his deck then re-randomizes it to make perfect decisions,

These two things are not at all equivalent! No one is advocating for the latter, and it would be a really bad design change, for reasons I hope are obvious.
« Last Edit: July 08, 2018, 11:51:23 pm by phonological loop »
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Re: Why I'm quitting Dominion for the foreseeable future (not satire)
« Reply #61 on: July 08, 2018, 05:01:56 pm »
0

For the online implementation, being able to look through your deck and shuffle it back to how it was and reading through the full log carefully are the same. 
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phonological loop

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Re: Why I'm quitting Dominion for the foreseeable future (not satire)
« Reply #62 on: July 08, 2018, 06:06:06 pm »
+1

For the online implementation, being able to look through your deck and shuffle it back to how it was and reading through the full log carefully are the same.

Sorry, I misread. I thought by "re-randomize" you meant organize the cards in the deck to get good draws. (The "perfect decisions" bit confused me.) Forget my remark, then.
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Re: Why I'm quitting Dominion for the foreseeable future (not satire)
« Reply #63 on: July 08, 2018, 07:22:43 pm »
+1

Variance is not necessarily anticompetitive.  Poker gets taken very seriously and yet there is lots of variance.

That's true, but variance comes in different forms. In Poker's case, you get to have almost absolute control over how big of a risk you are taking, and so even if I draw a super lucky hand and you draw garbage, it doesn't mean you automatically lose the whole game — you can just fold as soon as I place the first bet and you get to keep most (or all) of your chips while I gain next to nothing (or actually nothing). In Dominion, if the equivalent lucky draws happen, that means I more or less automatically win that one game out of the six we're playing.

I would say that RNG can have three main effects: it can affect the outcome of the game, it can complexify the decision making progress by introducing a new element you have to take into account, and it can create crazy unpredictable situations. I think the last two are great effects, and I think the first is a bad effect, but I can tolerate it to a pretty large extent (e.g. I'm fine with 6 Nimmt!). Dominion does pretty well in having plenty of 2 and 3 without having all that much 1, but it still has a bunch of 1 too and I would like it more if it had less of it.

Like, for all the issues Awaclus brought up, he has nevertheless played over 1000 games of Dominion Online according to the Dominion Scavenger leaderboard, though I don't know how many games of Prismata he has played.

I have played more like 7000 games of Dominion total if you count all the different implementations (which I think you should, because all of my complaints apply to previous implementations as well, except #4 but that still applied to Goko's web client as well). I have only played like 1000-2000 games of Prismata, but it was hard to find a match until recently, so I didn't play a lot until recently. Your point is totally correct though; I was completely happy about putting up with all the issues with Dominion until I got more active in Prismata and it didn't have any of the issues.
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Re: Why I'm quitting Dominion for the foreseeable future (not satire)
« Reply #64 on: July 08, 2018, 07:48:17 pm »
0

Poker, Texas hold em at least, is a very high variance game that allows you to play hands pretty quickly to balance it out.

Often someone bluffs when only a few of the community cards are revealed, and someone with a much stronger hand will call the bluff, the play that should punish that play.  But then the subsequent card reveals will randomly create a straight or flush with the weaker hand that doesn't affect the stronger hand, and the player who had his bluff called claims the pot.

I don't really understand how those sequences can be interpreted as anything but variance.  I don't think the One True Strategy of Poker can involve folding to hands you know are weaker than yours.  Yet yeah, you have the "choice" not to call those bluffs and lose just your ante bet every time you're winning, until death from a thousand cuts pushes you away from the table.

Citing choices as proof positive that good players can "opt out of poker's variance" seems about as insightful as pointing out that chess players don't have to play games that are swingy due to the Queen if they just leave the Queen safe in the starting row.
« Last Edit: July 08, 2018, 07:49:18 pm by popsofctown »
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Re: Why I'm quitting Dominion for the foreseeable future (not satire)
« Reply #65 on: July 08, 2018, 08:10:33 pm »
+2

Indeed, and this is one of those canonical things that the players I am attempting (poorly) to describe look for. And DVX is on record saying that first player advantage doesn't exist in Dominion (albeit in a forum post from 2008: http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Turn_advantage).
It would be great if you could confine the garbage you say to stuff that doesn't involve me!

What you are linking to is in fact me saying, in 2008, that the advantage of going first is the possibility of getting an extra turn. That isn't me saying that there's no advantage. It's not the tiniest bit that.

If it's important to you to keep saying garbage about me, I will ask theory to have you banned. No joke, find something else to be wrong about, or find some other place on the internet to make up stuff about me.
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Re: Why I'm quitting Dominion for the foreseeable future (not satire)
« Reply #66 on: July 08, 2018, 10:24:13 pm »
0

phono loop, I would definitely recommend you stop arguing with the designer of the game you like playing about how he first started designing his game
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Re: Why I'm quitting Dominion for the foreseeable future (not satire)
« Reply #67 on: July 08, 2018, 10:39:23 pm »
0

I typed that post too quickly, and I did not mean to misrepresent your position. (The post should read "first player advantage beyond the possibility of an extra turn," but the point is the same.) I mean no disrespect, and having said what I want to say as well as I could say it, I'll bow out of this thread now.
« Last Edit: July 08, 2018, 11:54:08 pm by phonological loop »
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Aleimon Thimble

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Re: Why I'm quitting Dominion for the foreseeable future (not satire)
« Reply #68 on: July 09, 2018, 03:42:30 am »
+2

4) Shuffle iT's implementation is sometimes very slow, which is probably at least partially because it's a browser client, not a standalone.

[...]

Honestly if Stef gets his ShiT together and does something about points 2, 3, and 4 [...]

You haven't just noticed that, have you?

Every once in a while I still get annoyed that Dominion got a worse online client than before for double the prize. But what can you do.
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Re: Why I'm quitting Dominion for the foreseeable future (not satire)
« Reply #69 on: July 09, 2018, 06:21:17 am »
+3

Every once in a while I still get annoyed that Dominion got a worse online client than before for double the prize. But what can you do.

Whether you like this client more or less then the MF implementation is up to you.
While I am probably biased, I can tell you I enjoy playing on it a lot more.

But your prize comparison really doesn't make sense. It's a bit too complicated to linearly compare the two, but if you really want to the best approximation is that this implementation costs about half of what they charged, not double.
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Re: Why I'm quitting Dominion for the foreseeable future (not satire)
« Reply #70 on: July 09, 2018, 07:05:45 am »
0

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Re: Why I'm quitting Dominion for the foreseeable future (not satire)
« Reply #71 on: July 09, 2018, 07:09:01 am »
+5

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Re: Why I'm quitting Dominion for the foreseeable future (not satire)
« Reply #72 on: July 09, 2018, 07:40:05 am »
+3

RNG

Random number generator?

No, the Raniganj railway station.
Now that is quite remarkable. You know, all that stuff about shuffle luck, opening splits, and the chances of a particular three-card combo coming up in a full-random game... and you're saying that there's this railway station that is somehow determining all of that, for every game of Dominion ever?
Who was it who said 'you make your own shuffle luck'? Did he build that railway station or something?
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Re: Why I'm quitting Dominion for the foreseeable future (not satire)
« Reply #73 on: July 09, 2018, 07:54:43 am »
+6

RNG

Random number generator?

No, the Raniganj railway station.
Now that is quite remarkable. You know, all that stuff about shuffle luck, opening splits, and the chances of a particular three-card combo coming up in a full-random game... and you're saying that there's this railway station that is somehow determining all of that, for every game of Dominion ever?
Who was it who said 'you make your own shuffle luck'? Did he build that railway station or something?
Well it makes sense you know. When I'm at a railway station, I always feel that the actual departure times of the trains are highly random.
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Re: Why I'm quitting Dominion for the foreseeable future (not satire)
« Reply #74 on: July 09, 2018, 08:08:45 am »
+21

... and you're saying that there's this railway station that is somehow determining all of that...

You have to appreciate the irony of Awaclus successfully derailing his own threat by posting about a railway station.
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Re: Why I'm quitting Dominion for the foreseeable future (not satire)
« Reply #75 on: July 09, 2018, 10:37:08 am »
+3

Indeed, and this is one of those canonical things that the players I am attempting (poorly) to describe look for. And DVX is on record saying that first player advantage doesn't exist in Dominion (albeit in a forum post from 2008: http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Turn_advantage).
It would be great if you could confine the garbage you say to stuff that doesn't involve me!

What you are linking to is in fact me saying, in 2008, that the advantage of going first is the possibility of getting an extra turn. That isn't me saying that there's no advantage. It's not the tiniest bit that.

If it's important to you to keep saying garbage about me, I will ask theory to have you banned. No joke, find something else to be wrong about, or find some other place on the internet to make up stuff about me.

I don't know if anyone cares about my two cents regarding this exchange, but I'm giving it: There seems to be a bit of miscommunication, I think what Phonological Loop was originally getting at was that Dominion has blossomed into a rich, competitive format that wasn't necessarily foreseen or implicit in the design of the game, and in that context Donald X. has tackled the challenge of approaching content and rules tweaking from multiple design perspectives.

The "pure competitive" aspects of the game are seen through a lens heavily emphasizing 2p, and it's hard to rationalize things like the existence of Black Market and the advantage first player has, whereas they make more sense with more players because increased player count creates a more casual environment.

That doesn't make any of Dominion's strengths "accidental," it just means people enjoy this game for a lot of different reasons. That's a very good thing, but of course it lends itself to areas of friction.

And of course none of us would be on these forums if we didn't love the game. No one gets on here to put it down or the work Donald and playtesters have put into it. We get on here to prop it up, and if we criticize, it's because we're passionate enough about the product to.
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Re: Why I'm quitting Dominion for the foreseeable future (not satire)
« Reply #76 on: July 09, 2018, 11:39:44 am »
+2

The "pure competitive" aspects of the game are seen through a lens heavily emphasizing 2p, and it's hard to rationalize things like the existence of Black Market and the advantage first player has, whereas they make more sense with more players because increased player count creates a more casual environment.

Black Market favors the more skilled player far more than most cards!

This is from sample of 2.5 M iso games. 

The measure is how hard a time trueskill had at predicting the winner, measured in conditional entropy given a card was in the supply. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conditional_entropy

Goons 0.689 ± 0.002
Colony 0.694 ± 0.001
Platinum 0.694 ± 0.001
Bishop 0.695 ± 0.002
Ambassador 0.695 ± 0.002
Grand Market 0.696 ± 0.002
Black Market 0.696 ± 0.002
...
Cache 0.714 ± 0.003
Jack of All Trades 0.714 ± 0.003
Embassy 0.714 ± 0.003

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Re: Why I'm quitting Dominion for the foreseeable future (not satire)
« Reply #77 on: July 09, 2018, 01:57:12 pm »
0

The "pure competitive" aspects of the game are seen through a lens heavily emphasizing 2p, and it's hard to rationalize things like the existence of Black Market and the advantage first player has, whereas they make more sense with more players because increased player count creates a more casual environment.

Black Market favors the more skilled player far more than most cards!

This is from sample of 2.5 M iso games. 

The measure is how hard a time trueskill had at predicting the winner, measured in conditional entropy given a card was in the supply. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conditional_entropy

Goons 0.689 ± 0.002
Colony 0.694 ± 0.001
Platinum 0.694 ± 0.001
Bishop 0.695 ± 0.002
Ambassador 0.695 ± 0.002
Grand Market 0.696 ± 0.002
Black Market 0.696 ± 0.002
...
Cache 0.714 ± 0.003
Jack of All Trades 0.714 ± 0.003
Embassy 0.714 ± 0.003


A few things:

“Favoring the more skilled player” doesn’t mean “not swingy” - it can simply mean for example that more skilled players recognize the value of a card more often.

Isotropic’s implementation of Black Market greatly differed from the current one, where you have a larger BM deck and no info on its contents.

I think BM usually works out, but it’s hard to ignore those outlier games where somebody just wins on the strength of their BM rolls. Oh well, that’s why it’s a promo card.
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Re: Why I'm quitting Dominion for the foreseeable future (not satire)
« Reply #78 on: July 09, 2018, 03:00:41 pm »
+1

Every once in a while I still get annoyed that Dominion got a worse online client than before for double the prize. But what can you do.

As far as I can tell, they have the same number of Prizes.
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Re: Why I'm quitting Dominion for the foreseeable future (not satire)
« Reply #79 on: July 09, 2018, 03:35:44 pm »
0

I don't agree with this. The players I'm talking about -- let's call them "Sirlins," since you think "Spikes" is too broad -- do want mostly the same things and share a certain broad game design philosophy. For instance, when I read Awaclus posts I understand immediately the place he is coming from (though I also enjoy my casual multiplayer games, thank you very much). I've met several people in real life with basically the same gaming philosophy.

(As an aside, I would be very interested in a description of the psychology of "Spikes" who are not "Sirlins." Perhaps I would better understand the distinction you're drawing.)

It is my impression that such people are generally very detail-oriented and find any deviation from certain Platonic competitive ideals off-putting, and have played enough games that they're quick to find and call out such deviations. (The lack of a turn timer in Dominion Online is possibly one example; it's often thought that competitive chess is a better game in virtue having a time limit, and the ability to select different time limits from "blitz" to G90 or beyond. I don't want to necessarily defend this idea, but I do want to point out that a "competitive" person of the kind I'm thinking of will find the idea of unlimited turn time a little weird.)

I hope "Sirlins" do find Dominion off-putting. If they're put off enough, I'll never have to deal with them or their bullshit. For people who are supposed to be subscribing to the tenet "play the game that everybody else is playing", they sure seem to whine a lot about making games more "competitive". I dunno, sounds like scrub talk to me.

If you want to play the equivalent of "no items, Fox only, Final Destination" in Dominion—and I'm not saying you do, but if you did—I think the closest analogue you could get is to find the set of 10 Kingdom cards that most rewards skill, and only ever play that board. Just play the crap out of it. That way you never have to experience the endless variety that makes Dominion so much fun. It's not a perfect analogy, of course, but you can't get a perfect analogy between a fighting game and a turn-based card game.

So yeah, for those who are looking to remove luck or whatever from Dominion, I say, go play Chess. Better yet, go play Chess 2! It's what Sirlin would do.
« Last Edit: July 09, 2018, 04:06:00 pm by LastFootnote »
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Re: Why I'm quitting Dominion for the foreseeable future (not satire)
« Reply #81 on: July 09, 2018, 04:02:08 pm »
+14

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Re: Why I'm quitting Dominion for the foreseeable future (not satire)
« Reply #82 on: July 09, 2018, 04:06:22 pm »
0

tenant

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Thanks! And no apology necessary. I prefer to learn from my mistakes.
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Re: Why I'm quitting Dominion for the foreseeable future (not satire)
« Reply #83 on: July 09, 2018, 04:18:23 pm »
0

On topic, I can empathize with the attitude of "play the game as it is, not how you want it to be", but there are times when a game is legitimately unbalanced and should be fixed.  I think the closest Dominion has ever come to that is Rebuild, and the folks on here have even found ways around that, so I think that's a testament to the game's design that the only "bug fix" we've ever needed was Masquerade, and that was for a pretty obscure combo.
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Re: Why I'm quitting Dominion for the foreseeable future (not satire)
« Reply #84 on: July 09, 2018, 05:16:36 pm »
+1

Fun / balance are subjective. It feels like Possession is the only card people have lots of agreement on, and in that case, it was less about the power level of Possession, and more that the game was really not fun when both players decided Possession was the best thing to do.

Re: people whining about changes to make games more competitive: the core thing about competitive games is that it has to feel good to win. Like, if Dominion was actually winnable by pure Big Money with no Actions on ~70% of boards, it wouldn't be nearly as good of a competitive game. I think a lot of these complaints are based on trying to turn the game into a game they want to improve at. (I mean, I think Chess 2 is still ridiculous, because it's incredibly, incredibly warped around Sirlin's fanaticism with 2D fighting games, but Chess960 is significantly less ridiculous of a variant.)

Re original post: I haven't played a game of Dominion in a few months, mostly because it wasn't fun to play ladder games anymore and I decided to try MTG: Arena instead. But I'll probably come back at some time. I agree with most of Awaclus's opinions and in particular agree about waiting time. I'm guilty of spending a lot of time on some decisions, but was trying to cut it back before I took a break from Dominion. I realized I'd rather play more games than have a slightly better chance of winning the game.
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Re: Why I'm quitting Dominion for the foreseeable future (not satire)
« Reply #85 on: July 09, 2018, 08:02:33 pm »
0

If you want to play the equivalent of "no items, Fox only, Final Destination" in Dominion—and I'm not saying you do, but if you did—I think the closest analogue you could get is to find the set of 10 Kingdom cards that most rewards skill, and only ever play that board. Just play the crap out of it. That way you never have to experience the endless variety that makes Dominion so much fun. It's not a perfect analogy, of course, but you can't get a perfect analogy between a fighting game and a turn-based card game.
Incidentally, when I introduced my partner to Super Smash Brothers, we had the problem where I was significantly better than him.  And I thought, based on stereotypes, that we could make it more luck-based by turning up items.  It turns out that items tipped the scales even more in my favor, because I actually knew what all the items did, and he didn't.  This is an excellent illustration of how luck and skill are orthogonal characteristics of a game.
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Re: Why I'm quitting Dominion for the foreseeable future (not satire)
« Reply #86 on: July 09, 2018, 08:45:15 pm »
0

If you want to play the equivalent of "no items, Fox only, Final Destination" in Dominion—and I'm not saying you do, but if you did—I think the closest analogue you could get is to find the set of 10 Kingdom cards that most rewards skill, and only ever play that board. Just play the crap out of it. That way you never have to experience the endless variety that makes Dominion so much fun. It's not a perfect analogy, of course, but you can't get a perfect analogy between a fighting game and a turn-based card game.
Incidentally, when I introduced my partner to Super Smash Brothers, we had the problem where I was significantly better than him.  And I thought, based on stereotypes, that we could make it more luck-based by turning up items.  It turns out that items tipped the scales even more in my favor, because I actually knew what all the items did, and he didn't.  This is an excellent illustration of how luck and skill are orthogonal characteristics of a game.
I agree with your conclusion but your reasoning seems rather flawed.  The additional advantage didn't come from him being accustomed to the random way the items were distributed, but from knowing the mechanics of the items themselves, which isn't inherently random (except for a small subset of them, like pokeballs)

In  Brawl, a side effect of using the "Contra Code" to play Zero Suit Samus put her suit parts onto the floor, which could be thrown like a pitcher's fastball and dealt lots of damage.  It was incredibly easy for defending player to pick up some of them to use for themselves, you just tap A when the part is thrown towards you and you catch it.  There were infinite examples of players with a few dozen games against ZSS trying to deal damage with the suit parts as well as 3,000 game veterans of ZSS did, but the ZSS players always got far more mileage out of them, even though they were very nonrandom.  If you chucked 3 suit parts at your partner and he doesn't steal any of them, and then your partner randomly gets a green shell on his side, he throws it at you, and catch it, that illustration wouldn't solve for me the mystery of whether luck and skill are intertwined in game design.



Smash's history of controversy over stage legality would definitely stand on the same side of the fence as DXV's assertion that "not all Spikes want the same thing".  Stages with random occurrences have an uphill climb staying legal, but those that inject varying degrees of variety into gameplay get passionate groups both for and against.

My favorite experience with it was when I got to pick the stage against a large-stagelist-leaning player who is more competitive than I am.  I picked a stage with a super low ceiling, because his character was particularly susceptible to ceiling-kills, then I picked the best ceiling kill character, even though I had almost no experience using that character.  You could definitely say I am "unskilled" at that character, and my opponent stuck with his main.  And I beat him, and asked if losing that way made him reconsider his position on the stage.  He said no.  At the time I thought his opinion was weak in some sort of objective way, but nowadays I have a different view on it, people have their own definitions of what feels competitive to them.
« Last Edit: July 09, 2018, 08:49:22 pm by popsofctown »
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Re: Why I'm quitting Dominion for the foreseeable future (not satire)
« Reply #88 on: July 09, 2018, 10:04:14 pm »
0

If you want to play the equivalent of "no items, Fox only, Final Destination" in Dominion—and I'm not saying you do, but if you did—I think the closest analogue you could get is to find the set of 10 Kingdom cards that most rewards skill, and only ever play that board. Just play the crap out of it. That way you never have to experience the endless variety that makes Dominion so much fun. It's not a perfect analogy, of course, but you can't get a perfect analogy between a fighting game and a turn-based card game.
Incidentally, when I introduced my partner to Super Smash Brothers, we had the problem where I was significantly better than him.  And I thought, based on stereotypes, that we could make it more luck-based by turning up items.  It turns out that items tipped the scales even more in my favor, because I actually knew what all the items did, and he didn't.  This is an excellent illustration of how luck and skill are orthogonal characteristics of a game.
I agree with your conclusion but your reasoning seems rather flawed.  The additional advantage didn't come from him being accustomed to the random way the items were distributed, but from knowing the mechanics of the items themselves, which isn't inherently random (except for a small subset of them, like pokeballs)

In  Brawl, a side effect of using the "Contra Code" to play Zero Suit Samus put her suit parts onto the floor, which could be thrown like a pitcher's fastball and dealt lots of damage.  It was incredibly easy for defending player to pick up some of them to use for themselves, you just tap A when the part is thrown towards you and you catch it.  There were infinite examples of players with a few dozen games against ZSS trying to deal damage with the suit parts as well as 3,000 game veterans of ZSS did, but the ZSS players always got far more mileage out of them, even though they were very nonrandom.  If you chucked 3 suit parts at your partner and he doesn't steal any of them, and then your partner randomly gets a green shell on his side, he throws it at you, and catch it, that illustration wouldn't solve for me the mystery of whether luck and skill are intertwined in game design.



Smash's history of controversy over stage legality would definitely stand on the same side of the fence as DXV's assertion that "not all Spikes want the same thing".  Stages with random occurrences have an uphill climb staying legal, but those that inject varying degrees of variety into gameplay get passionate groups both for and against.

My favorite experience with it was when I got to pick the stage against a large-stagelist-leaning player who is more competitive than I am.  I picked a stage with a super low ceiling, because his character was particularly susceptible to ceiling-kills, then I picked the best ceiling kill character, even though I had almost no experience using that character.  You could definitely say I am "unskilled" at that character, and my opponent stuck with his main.  And I beat him, and asked if losing that way made him reconsider his position on the stage.  He said no.  At the time I thought his opinion was weak in some sort of objective way, but nowadays I have a different view on it, people have their own definitions of what feels competitive to them.
I don't see how that conflicts with what I said.  I meant to say that adding items increased both the amount of luck and skill, which contradicts the viewpoint that increased luck comes at the cost of skill and vice versa.  I didn't claim that the skill arose specifically from the randomness of the items.

However, I suspect that in the generic case, luck and skill are positively correlated, because randomness typically increases the variety of situations that players need to be prepared for.  Also, luck tends to obscure the positive feedback for playing well, which means it's harder for players to figure out the best strategies even after playing many games.  I understand why some players prefer to reduce luck though, I'm not complaining about them or anything.
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Re: Why I'm quitting Dominion for the foreseeable future (not satire)
« Reply #89 on: July 09, 2018, 10:50:55 pm »
+1

I don't think it makes any sense to say that luck and skill are correlated. Of course, we're all just arguing about definitions, so let me offer mind: I consider skill the component of variance that correlates with the players and luck the component that does not. In other words, if a competition tends to have the same players winning in head-to-head matches, then it is mostly skill, while if a competition leads to more random outcomes,

The difference here is this always depends on which skill gaps you're comparing. Between a moderately experienced player and a new player, random elements can add variance that will correlated with that skill gap, because the moderately experience player knows how to deal with that uncertainty. But between, say, a top player and a moderately experienced player who have both mastered that aspect, the random elements can instead decide the outcome in a way that does not correlate with their differing abilities. Hence why top players will see random elements as contributing to luck, while new players will see them as contributing to skill.
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Re: Why I'm quitting Dominion for the foreseeable future (not satire)
« Reply #92 on: July 10, 2018, 10:15:34 am »
0

tenant

*tenet

(sorry)
if only less people would make these mistakes



fewer

Couldn't resist.

In retrospect, Donald's post making a grammar mistake works well as a joke about people making grammar mistakes. However, because we know he doesn't playtest his posts as jokes, it's funny only due to happy accident. If only you'd known what you were doing, Donald.
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Re: Why I'm quitting Dominion for the foreseeable future (not satire)
« Reply #93 on: July 10, 2018, 10:30:58 am »
+3

tenant

*tenet

(sorry)
if only less people would make these mistakes



fewer

Couldn't resist.

In retrospect, Donald's post making a grammar mistake works well as a joke about people making grammar mistakes. However, because we know he doesn't playtest his posts as jokes, it's funny only due to happy accident. If only you'd known what you were doing, Donald.

ACTUALLY, these are diction mistakes, not grammar mistakes.
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Re: Why I'm quitting Dominion for the foreseeable future (not satire)
« Reply #94 on: July 10, 2018, 01:08:28 pm »
0

tenant

*tenet

(sorry)
if only less people would make these mistakes



fewer

Couldn't resist.

In retrospect, Donald's post making a grammar mistake works well as a joke about people making grammar mistakes. However, because we know he doesn't playtest his posts as jokes, it's funny only due to happy accident. If only you'd known what you were doing, Donald.

ACTUALLY, these are diction mistakes, not grammar mistakes.


I mean if we're going there, it's a vocabulary error. Diction is something else.
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Mic Qsenoch

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Re: Why I'm quitting Dominion for the foreseeable future (not satire)
« Reply #95 on: July 10, 2018, 01:09:43 pm »
+6

The amount of whooshes we'd need to describe this thread...
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ObtusePunubiris

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Re: Why I'm quitting Dominion for the foreseeable future (not satire)
« Reply #96 on: July 10, 2018, 01:17:57 pm »
+1

Technically, that should be "number of whooshes." It could also be "quantity of whooshes", but that suggests a more formal setting and...yeah...whoosh.
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trivialknot

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Re: Why I'm quitting Dominion for the foreseeable future (not satire)
« Reply #97 on: July 10, 2018, 02:40:45 pm »
0

I don't think it makes any sense to say that luck and skill are correlated. Of course, we're all just arguing about definitions, so let me offer mind: I consider skill the component of variance that correlates with the players and luck the component that does not. In other words, if a competition tends to have the same players winning in head-to-head matches, then it is mostly skill, while if a competition leads to more random outcomes,

The difference here is this always depends on which skill gaps you're comparing. Between a moderately experienced player and a new player, random elements can add variance that will correlated with that skill gap, because the moderately experience player knows how to deal with that uncertainty. But between, say, a top player and a moderately experienced player who have both mastered that aspect, the random elements can instead decide the outcome in a way that does not correlate with their differing abilities. Hence why top players will see random elements as contributing to luck, while new players will see them as contributing to skill.
That's the correct way to think of it, if you think of luck and skill as two competing explanatory factors for who wins games.  But this has little to do with whether a game "feels" luck-based or skill-based.  I did an analysis a while back of Dominion League games among top players, and I concluded that those games were 80% determined by chance.  It seems counterintuitive, but it's actually about right, because when players are of very similar skill level, obviously the differences in their skill are not the primary explanatory factor in who wins.  (At least, not individual games.  In a 6-game match, skill differences add up.)  But does that mean that Dominion is a low-skill game, especially among the most highly skilled players?  I would say not.

I've since adopted the viewpoint argued by Richard Garfield (aku-chi linked to an article, but you can also find videos of talks he's given).  Skill is the difficulty in mastery, and the number of different levels of mastery that can be achieved.  Luck is the uncertainty, either during the course of the game, or in the outcome of the game.  I feel that this definition lines up with our intuitive understanding of skill in games.
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Re: Why I'm quitting Dominion for the foreseeable future (not satire)
« Reply #98 on: July 10, 2018, 03:05:54 pm »
0

tenant

*tenet

(sorry)
if only less people would make these mistakes



fewer

Couldn't resist.

In retrospect, Donald's post making a grammar mistake works well as a joke about people making grammar mistakes. However, because we know he doesn't playtest his posts as jokes, it's funny only due to happy accident. If only you'd known what you were doing, Donald.

ACTUALLY, these are diction mistakes, not grammar mistakes.

As far as I know, a diction error is a vocabulary error, and Google backs me up. What do you think it means?
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Re: Why I'm quitting Dominion for the foreseeable future (not satire)
« Reply #99 on: July 10, 2018, 03:21:56 pm »
0

tenant

*tenet

(sorry)
if only less people would make these mistakes



fewer

Couldn't resist.

In retrospect, Donald's post making a grammar mistake works well as a joke about people making grammar mistakes. However, because we know he doesn't playtest his posts as jokes, it's funny only due to happy accident. If only you'd known what you were doing, Donald.

ACTUALLY, these are diction mistakes, not grammar mistakes.

As far as I know, a diction error is a vocabulary error, and Google backs me up. What do you think it means?

Diction more specifically refers to either saying a word improperly or improper word choice based on connotation. It more often occurs in spoken word than written, but can occur in either. Using the wrong word entirely is vocabulary.

Example of a written diction error: Let me axe you a question. <Clearly intended "ask"
Example of a written vocabulary error: Let me ask you a bacon. <Different word

« Last Edit: July 10, 2018, 03:27:13 pm by Screwyioux »
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Screwyioux

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Re: Why I'm quitting Dominion for the foreseeable future (not satire)
« Reply #100 on: July 10, 2018, 03:33:27 pm »
0

That distinction, by the way, is a factoid that has been relevant to my life exactly one time. Just now.

Perhaps I will utilize this knowledge again some day, but today is probably not that day.
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Re: Why I'm quitting Dominion for the foreseeable future (not satire)
« Reply #101 on: July 10, 2018, 03:38:45 pm »
+5

In the spirit of what this thread has become, I'll note that there's seldom any excuse for saying "utilize" instead of simply "use"...
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Re: Why I'm quitting Dominion for the foreseeable future (not satire)
« Reply #102 on: July 10, 2018, 03:51:09 pm »
0

Oh are we talking about incorrect things that are actually annoying? Boy, do I have an ear-full for you.

The word "irregardless" is an abomination.

"Over" refers to physical location, not quantity.

"Nauseous" means it makes people sick. If you're sick, you're nauseated.

"Steep learning curve" means the OPPOSITE of how people use it. A learning curve shows mastery over time, if it's steep, then mastery spikes in a very short time. What most people mean is a gradual learning curve when they say steep.

"That" never refers to humans, "who" and "whom" do.

"Further" and "farther" are different words.

If you're ever thinking about using a semicolon, don't. Just don't. I promise you you don't need it.

"Unique" means one-of-a-kind. "Very unique" doesn't make sense.

"Since" refers to the passage of time, it does not mean the same thing as "because."
« Last Edit: July 10, 2018, 03:53:10 pm by Screwyioux »
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Screwyioux

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Re: Why I'm quitting Dominion for the foreseeable future (not satire)
« Reply #103 on: July 10, 2018, 03:57:56 pm »
0

A special mention to the fact that, as of 2017, it's technically correct to use "they" and "their" to refer to a single person.

I get it, "his" and "her" aren't perfect, inclusiveness, empathy, post-modernism yay!

Still, it was technically incorrect for so long that it trips me up every time I see it.
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Re: Why I'm quitting Dominion for the foreseeable future (not satire)
« Reply #104 on: July 10, 2018, 04:09:48 pm »
0

To mix up "tenant and "tenent" seems to be in the area of "axe" and "ask" rather than "question" versus "bacon" - spelling errors seems tangent to mispronunciation, at least to me. Vote: Diction, rather than vocabulary error..

I hope Awaclus enjoys what his thread has become.   

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Re: Why I'm quitting Dominion for the foreseeable future (not satire)
« Reply #105 on: July 10, 2018, 04:12:02 pm »
0

To mix up "tenant and "tenent" seems to be in the area of "axe" and "ask" rather than "question" versus "bacon" - spelling errors seems tangent to mispronunciation, at least to me. Vote: Diction, rather than vocabulary error..

I hope Awaclus enjoys what his thread has become.

You're quite right, but we were talking about using the word "less" when "fewer" was appropriate (which I believe Donald intentionally did as a joke).
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Re: Why I'm quitting Dominion for the foreseeable future (not satire)
« Reply #106 on: July 10, 2018, 04:15:22 pm »
0

Example of a written diction error: Let me axe you a question. <Clearly intended "ask"

That's more likely a spelling error, not a "diction" error. That is, the most likely reason somebody would write "axe you a question" is because they pronounce the word ask as "axe" and don't realize that the word is spelled "ask", not because they used the word axe instead of the word ask.
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Re: Why I'm quitting Dominion for the foreseeable future (not satire)
« Reply #107 on: July 10, 2018, 04:17:21 pm »
0

Example of a written diction error: Let me axe you a question. <Clearly intended "ask"

That's more likely a spelling error, not a "diction" error. That is, the most likely reason somebody would write "axe you a question" is because they pronounce the word ask as "axe" and don't realize that the word is spelled "ask", not because they used the word axe instead of the word ask.

Right, that's diction. The correct word was intended, but it was articulated incorrectly.
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Screwyioux

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Re: Why I'm quitting Dominion for the foreseeable future (not satire)
« Reply #108 on: July 10, 2018, 04:18:11 pm »
0

The tenet versus tenant example works too.
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Re: Why I'm quitting Dominion for the foreseeable future (not satire)
« Reply #109 on: July 10, 2018, 04:20:39 pm »
+1

Just so we're clear on this, we boldly embarked into "this never matters for any practical reason" territory about a page ago.
« Last Edit: July 10, 2018, 04:22:38 pm by Screwyioux »
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Re: Why I'm quitting Dominion for the foreseeable future (not satire)
« Reply #110 on: July 10, 2018, 04:22:27 pm »
+13

"Over" refers to physical location, not quantity.

This is false; it also often refers to quantity.

Quote
"Nauseous" means it makes people sick. If you're sick, you're nauseated.

Nauseous also means 'feeling sick'.

Quote
"Steep learning curve" means the OPPOSITE of how people use it. A learning curve shows mastery over time, if it's steep, then mastery spikes in a very short time. What most people mean is a gradual learning curve when they say steep.

I agree with you about what "steep learning curve" means and disagree with you about your thesis that people mean the opposite. What most people mean when they say "steep learning curve" is a situation in which someone is forced to master a lot of knowledge in a short amount of time.

Quote
"That" never refers to humans, "who" and "whom" do.

Relative clauses using that frequently refer to humans. (That itself doesn't refer to humans, because in this construction, the word that is not a pronoun and doesn't refer to anything.)

Quote
If you're ever thinking about using a semicolon, don't. Just don't. I promise you you don't need it.

That's just, like, your opinion, man.

Quote
"Since" refers to the passage of time, it does not mean the same thing as "because."

Both of these are available meanings for since.

Quote
A special mention to the fact that, as of 2017, it's technically correct to use "they" and "their" to refer to a single person.

I get it, "his" and "her" aren't perfect, inclusiveness, empathy, post-modernism yay!

Still, it was technically incorrect for so long that it trips me up every time I see it.

I have literally no idea what you mean by "technically" here. There's no switch that magically flipped in 2017. They and their have been correctly used to refer to single (unidentified) individuals for centuries, and for single identified individuals of non-binary gender more recently that that, but it didn't just start in 2017.
« Last Edit: July 10, 2018, 04:23:57 pm by AJD »
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Re: Why I'm quitting Dominion for the foreseeable future (not satire)
« Reply #111 on: July 10, 2018, 04:27:12 pm »
+2

This is the most prescriptivist thing I've seen in a long time.

Screwyioux

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Re: Why I'm quitting Dominion for the foreseeable future (not satire)
« Reply #112 on: July 10, 2018, 04:29:15 pm »
0

So some of thee, like "over" and "nauseous" have certainly come into popular vernacular with these alternate meanings, and using them that way means that most people will know what you mean. But there's a difference between regular just-two-humans trying to communicate grammar and technically correct, editorial grammar. Or spelling, or syntax or style or whatever we're calling it.

As far as the "his or her" thing, the magic switch that flipped in 2017 is that the AP style guide accepted it. AP style is the professional standard for correctness, so WITHOUT GETTING INTO THE SOCIAL ISSUES SURROUNDING IT, that's when it became technically correct.
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Donald X.

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Re: Why I'm quitting Dominion for the foreseeable future (not satire)
« Reply #113 on: July 10, 2018, 04:30:30 pm »
+6

A special mention to the fact that, as of 2017, it's technically correct to use "they" and "their" to refer to a single person.
It's been "correct" for hundreds of years.

You just posted a big list of language prescriptivism garbage that I am utterly against. The language is what the people say; no-one gets to make up rules for it and have them be right. When people start saying "who" instead of "whom," it becomes correct, just like when they started saying "you" instead of "ye" and "thou."

Man. As usual, this belongs in RSP, no joke. Take it there.
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Screwyioux

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Re: Why I'm quitting Dominion for the foreseeable future (not satire)
« Reply #114 on: July 10, 2018, 04:31:21 pm »
0

A special mention to the fact that, as of 2017, it's technically correct to use "they" and "their" to refer to a single person.
It's been "correct" for hundreds of years.

You just posted a big list of language prescriptivism garbage that I am utterly against. The language is what the people say; no-one gets to make up rules for it and have them be right. When people start saying "who" instead of "whom," it becomes correct, just like when they started saying "you" instead of "ye" and "thou."

Man. As usual, this belongs in RSP, no joke. Take it there.


THE WHOLE JOKE WAS THAT WE WERE TALKING ABOUT THINGS THAT DON'T MATTER!!!!!!
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Donald X.

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Re: Why I'm quitting Dominion for the foreseeable future (not satire)
« Reply #115 on: July 10, 2018, 04:33:12 pm »
+1

A special mention to the fact that, as of 2017, it's technically correct to use "they" and "their" to refer to a single person.
It's been "correct" for hundreds of years.

You just posted a big list of language prescriptivism garbage that I am utterly against. The language is what the people say; no-one gets to make up rules for it and have them be right. When people start saying "who" instead of "whom," it becomes correct, just like when they started saying "you" instead of "ye" and "thou."

Man. As usual, this belongs in RSP, no joke. Take it there.


THE WHOLE JOKE WAS THAT WE WERE TALKING ABOUT THINGS THAT DON'T MATTER!!!!!!
Take it to RSP, we try to keep poison out of the forums visible to guests.
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Screwyioux

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Re: Why I'm quitting Dominion for the foreseeable future (not satire)
« Reply #116 on: July 10, 2018, 04:34:08 pm »
0

I am not a prescriptivist when it comes to language (at least not for free I'm not).

Someone made a meaningless correction to tenet vs tenant, Donald made a joke intentionally misusing "less" to showcase the triviality of it, and LastFootnote kept the joke going by talking about Diction.

I just ran with it!
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Screwyioux

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Re: Why I'm quitting Dominion for the foreseeable future (not satire)
« Reply #117 on: July 10, 2018, 04:35:45 pm »
+1

Whoosh, I guess.
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Donald X.

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Re: Why I'm quitting Dominion for the foreseeable future (not satire)
« Reply #118 on: July 10, 2018, 04:36:06 pm »
+1

I am not a prescriptivist when it comes to language (at least not for free I'm not).

Someone made a meaningless correction to tenet vs tenant, Donald made a joke intentionally misusing "less" to showcase the triviality of it, and LastFootnote kept the joke going by talking about Diction.

I just ran with it!
If that was all supposed to be hilarious, I have bad news for you.
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Re: Why I'm quitting Dominion for the foreseeable future (not satire)
« Reply #119 on: July 10, 2018, 04:42:34 pm »
0

A special mention to the fact that, as of 2017, it's technically correct to use "they" and "their" to refer to a single person.
Wikipedia has examples in English going back to 1382 (the Wycliffe Bible) and the equivalent construct has been used for a lot longer than that in other, more ancient, languages.

Singular "we", "you" and "they" are all acceptable in English; singular "you" has become ubiquitous.

(PS: See? An appropriate and correct use of a semicolon!)
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Re: Why I'm quitting Dominion for the foreseeable future (not satire)
« Reply #120 on: July 10, 2018, 04:50:08 pm »
0

Man, this has gotten so far away from the point (and the joke).

I'm somebody who is passionate about language and the approach and arguments you're making against prescriptivism are valid. I even agree to a point (I mean with no concept of correctness we don't have a language at all, if the point is to convey information, at a certain point precision matters). I find the attitudes people apply to communication and the utility they do and don't have fascinating.

But let's talk about something as near and dear to our hearts as whether or not I'm allowed to say "they" in a press release:

ELAGABALUS WAS THE BEST EMPEROR ROME EVER HAD!!!!!!

« Last Edit: July 10, 2018, 04:51:51 pm by Screwyioux »
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Re: Why I'm quitting Dominion for the foreseeable future (not satire)
« Reply #121 on: July 10, 2018, 09:19:43 pm »
0

lol speaking of this thread, I'm actually going to take a break from playing Dominion, for a lot of the reasons Awaclus has. The game is seriously exhausting to play competitively.
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Re: Why I'm quitting Dominion for the foreseeable future (not satire)
« Reply #122 on: July 10, 2018, 09:22:29 pm »
0

I hope "Sirlins" do find Dominion off-putting. If they're put off enough, I'll never have to deal with them or their bullshit. For people who are supposed to be subscribing to the tenet "play the game that everybody else is playing", they sure seem to whine a lot about making games more "competitive". I dunno, sounds like scrub talk to me.

If you want to play the equivalent of "no items, Fox only, Final Destination" in Dominion—and I'm not saying you do, but if you did—I think the closest analogue you could get is to find the set of 10 Kingdom cards that most rewards skill, and only ever play that board. Just play the crap out of it. That way you never have to experience the endless variety that makes Dominion so much fun. It's not a perfect analogy, of course, but you can't get a perfect analogy between a fighting game and a turn-based card game.

So yeah, for those who are looking to remove luck or whatever from Dominion, I say, go play Chess. Better yet, go play Chess 2! It's what Sirlin would do.

Thanks for your thoughtful reply. I suppose I might as well comment, since it seems everyone else is too busy falling for the prescriptivist bait and some points got lost in the shuffle.

First, my term "Sirlin" was an unfortunate choice, because I see it connotes certain negative aspects -- like his personality -- that are not essential to the psychology I meant to describe. I don't think it is necessary that someone who views games as intellectual sport is also an asshole. For example, I am a poor chess player, but I've played some live tournaments and a lot more online, and I've met a lot of players who are competitive and "play to win." But most are also kind people and good sports.

So, if you want to design games that are not meant primarily for people with a "competitive" mindset, that's totally cool. I just wish the justification was more about having a design philosophy that differs from theirs and less that you don't care about pleasing them because they're jerks, because I don't think that is usually the case. Maybe "competitive" is not even the right word. The mindset I'm trying to get across is about valuing certain game design principles, not cut-throat behavior and rudeness.

The "no items, Fox only, Final Destination" meme began as a parody of "competitive" Smash, and I wouldn't take it too literally. In any case, I don't think people with a "games as sport" mentality necessarily dislike variety. I would guess most welcome it. More variety means more strategic options and a richer game, right? Of course there are sometimes tradeoffs -- maybe there's a point where there's so much variety you just can't balance the game properly -- but personally I welcome variety.

Your comment about people wanting to remove luck from Dominion is interesting. There's been a lot of a good discussion on previous pages about this, but I'll reiterate some points briefly. I think we should distinguish between a game having elements of chance, and those elements of chance affecting the outcome of the game in a way that makes in-game decisions seem useless or purposeless. For instance, I don't know much about poker, but I've heard it said that the same players tend to rise to the top of tournaments despite the nominally large role chance plays in the game. This makes sense to me, because even though a single hand might be decided largely by chance factors, over the course of thousands of hands -- if skill has any impact on the outcome at all -- the better player should win out. So while poker is a game of "chance," the variance in outcome is actually quite small relative to the skill of the players and their decisions. (If anyone here plays poker competitively, please weigh in.)

However, if elements of chance frequently affect the outcome of the game to a large enough degree that one player simply can't win even if she plays optimally -- or more realistically, if the skew is quite large but not 100% decisive -- someone with a "games as sport" mindset may find that off-putting. This is more or less what I take Awaclus's point 5 to be.

Of course, we all have different tolerances for chance affecting game outcomes relative to player decisions, and that tolerance can't be zero unless you want to always play deterministic games because horrible draws and freak events will inevitably occur. But I do sympathize with Awaclus's preference here, at least on some days.

(And yeah, Chess 2 seems to misunderstand chess. If you want a variant that fixes some perceived defects, I'd go with Chess960 as mentioned earlier.)
« Last Edit: July 10, 2018, 10:11:37 pm by phonological loop »
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silvern

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Re: Why I'm quitting Dominion for the foreseeable future (not satire)
« Reply #123 on: July 10, 2018, 10:25:40 pm »
+4

okay guys, we get it, Awaclus is quitting dominion
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Re: Why I'm quitting Dominion for the foreseeable future (not satire)
« Reply #124 on: July 11, 2018, 02:10:23 am »
0

If you're ever thinking about using a semicolon, don't. Just don't. I promise you you don't need it.
Here is an interesting podcast about how a problematic semicolon in the US-American constitution could cause a constitutional crisis:

http://revisionisthistory.com/episodes/21-divide-and-conquer

That said, semicola are cool. But they are also the most subtle of punctuation marks. You should really know what you're doing when using it. Unlike the people who wrote the US-American constitution.
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Since the number of points is within a constant factor of the number of city quarters, in the long run we can get (4 - ε) ↑↑ n points in n turns for any ε > 0.

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Re: Why I'm quitting Dominion for the foreseeable future (not satire)
« Reply #125 on: July 11, 2018, 04:05:51 am »
0

I have literally no idea what you mean by "technically" here.
"Literally" is in-and-of-itself another abomination of modern English.

If you're ever thinking about using a semicolon, don't. Just don't. I promise you you don't need it.
- said no programming language ever.
« Last Edit: July 11, 2018, 04:08:41 am by Dingan »
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Re: Why I'm quitting Dominion for the foreseeable future (not satire)
« Reply #126 on: July 11, 2018, 04:33:20 am »
+2

If you're ever thinking about using a semicolon, don't. Just don't. I promise you you don't need it.
- said no programming language ever.
Python doesn't really need them.
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Since the number of points is within a constant factor of the number of city quarters, in the long run we can get (4 - ε) ↑↑ n points in n turns for any ε > 0.

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Re: Why I'm quitting Dominion for the foreseeable future (not satire)
« Reply #127 on: July 11, 2018, 08:38:46 am »
0

If you're ever thinking about using a semicolon, don't. Just don't. I promise you you don't need it.
Here is an interesting podcast about how a problematic semicolon in the US-American constitution could cause a constitutional crisis:

http://revisionisthistory.com/episodes/21-divide-and-conquer

That said, semicola are cool. But they are also the most subtle of punctuation marks. You should really know what you're doing when using it. Unlike the people who wrote the US-American constitution.

I mean my whole thing with them is that the vast majority of people both use them wrong and don't need them. So I just tell people not to use them for the same reason a dentist would tell you not to use that little curvy, scrapey thing they clean your teeth with. You know the one.
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Re: Why I'm quitting Dominion for the foreseeable future (not satire)
« Reply #128 on: July 11, 2018, 09:00:49 am »
+2

That distinction, by the way, is a factoid that has been relevant to my life exactly one time.

You all totally missed this one, guys. A "factoid" is not a little fact, it's something that seems like a fact but isn't.
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Re: Why I'm quitting Dominion for the foreseeable future (not satire)
« Reply #129 on: July 11, 2018, 09:09:37 am »
+3

I use semicolons all the time; they're really rather useful when neither a period nor a comma would be appropriate.
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Re: Why I'm quitting Dominion for the foreseeable future (not satire)
« Reply #130 on: July 11, 2018, 09:14:45 am »
0

That distinction, by the way, is a factoid that has been relevant to my life exactly one time.

You all totally missed this one, guys. A "factoid" is not a little fact, it's something that seems like a fact but isn't.

Haha I had no idea, but you're right! That was unintentional, but also rather appropriate, isn't it?

« Last Edit: July 11, 2018, 09:19:26 am by Screwyioux »
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Re: Why I'm quitting Dominion for the foreseeable future (not satire)
« Reply #132 on: July 11, 2018, 09:53:00 am »
+6

semicola
*twitch*

What, he's just talking about those little baby cans of Coke they give you on airplanes.
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Re: Why I'm quitting Dominion for the foreseeable future (not satire)
« Reply #133 on: July 11, 2018, 11:09:51 am »
+3

Not to be confused with a semicoda, which is like a coda but halfway through the song.

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Re: Why I'm quitting Dominion for the foreseeable future (not satire)
« Reply #134 on: July 11, 2018, 11:30:51 am »
+5

I'm going to take a break from Dominion as well, because I'm getting hungry.

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Re: Why I'm quitting Dominion for the foreseeable future (not satire)
« Reply #135 on: July 11, 2018, 11:44:24 am »
+5

I have literally no idea what you mean by "technically" here.
"Literally" is in-and-of-itself another abomination of modern English.

People's resistance to literally used as an intensifier is one of the tics of language prescriptivists that most bothers me. I get especially irritated when people try to correct it by saying "you mean figuratively." No, I don't; figuratively is not used as an intensifier. Furthermore, "literally" has been used in this way for ages (the OED's entries start in 1769) and this is now the most common use of the word.

Also, just for fun, here's Kurt Vonnegut on semicolons:

Quote
Do not use semicolons. They are transvestite hermaphrodites representing absolutely nothing. All they do is show you’ve been to college.
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Re: Why I'm quitting Dominion for the foreseeable future (not satire)
« Reply #136 on: July 11, 2018, 01:04:30 pm »
0

Isn't transvestite hermaphrodite an oxymoron? If one has attributes of both sexes, which OTHER sex can one dress as? Even assuming a non-binary sex-understanding, I cannot think of one that has a sufficiently attributed and well-established wardrobe.

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Re: Why I'm quitting Dominion for the foreseeable future (not satire)
« Reply #137 on: July 11, 2018, 01:10:40 pm »
0

That distinction, by the way, is a factoid that has been relevant to my life exactly one time.

You all totally missed this one, guys. A "factoid" is not a little fact, it's something that seems like a fact but isn't.

Not necessarily, most dictionaries give a secondary (in some cases primary) definition of factoid as "a brief or trivial item of news or information" or some variation thereof. That seems to be the meaning Screwyioux was going for.
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Re: Why I'm quitting Dominion for the foreseeable future (not satire)
« Reply #138 on: July 11, 2018, 02:39:25 pm »
+1

I have literally no idea what you mean by "technically" here.
"Literally" is in-and-of-itself another abomination of modern English.

People's resistance to literally used as an intensifier is one of the tics of language prescriptivists that most bothers me. I get especially irritated when people try to correct it by saying "you mean figuratively." No, I don't; figuratively is not used as an intensifier. Furthermore, "literally" has been used in this way for ages (the OED's entries start in 1769) and this is now the most common use of the word.

Usually when I use "literally" for purposes outside having an intensifier, it is to describe an outlandish event described in literature that actually took place as described. So like, "She literally crushes the villain at the end (with a hydraulic press)" or "He literally punched out the Devil, leaving a visible bump on the Devil's forehead".
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Re: Why I'm quitting Dominion for the foreseeable future (not satire)
« Reply #139 on: July 11, 2018, 04:03:27 pm »
+7

at this point we really should just rename RSP to Religion Sex Politics and Grammar because I’m sure I’m not the only person off put by 20+ posts of descriptivism vs prescriptivism, and every one of these garbage tangents ends up there anyway
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Re: Why I'm quitting Dominion for the foreseeable future (not satire)
« Reply #140 on: July 11, 2018, 04:22:11 pm »
+2

every one of these garbage tangents ends up there anyway

Pro Tip: Never make an insightful post in a thread like this one because your respect will just disappear* when it gets moved to RSP[G].

* Or maybe just turn invisible.
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Why i persume i'll play dominion as much or slightly more than i do now
« Reply #141 on: July 11, 2018, 04:43:08 pm »
+7

I play dominion almost exclusively with a pool of five players.  We used to play at least weekly when we were in the same town. but most of the group has moved away.

Thankfully one of use has sprung for a full subscription online. we get together, play dominion and have a fun group chat.

I probably don't play at the super high level some do, but it's dang fun.  It's just an excuse to spend time with the guys.

there is enough variability in Dominion that everyone wins sometimes. And can Lord that over the rest of the people until we play again.

I'm so glad online dominion has 3-4 player options.  I like having everyone able to play.

So yeah.  I'll keep playing, more online than in person.  but I sure love this game.

« Last Edit: July 11, 2018, 04:44:23 pm by pacatak »
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Re: Why I'm quitting Dominion for the foreseeable future (not satire)
« Reply #142 on: July 11, 2018, 05:20:37 pm »
+11

at this point we really should just rename RSP to Religion Sex Politics and Grammar because I’m sure I’m not the only person off put by 20+ posts of descriptivism vs prescriptivism, and every one of these garbage tangents ends up there anyway

Didn’t you know? RSP stands for Rhetoric, Semantics and Punctuation.

(Also, before this thread got to page 2, you should already have got an idea of whether reading this thread was going to produce happiness)
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Re: Why I'm quitting Dominion for the foreseeable future (not satire)
« Reply #143 on: July 11, 2018, 06:58:49 pm »
+1

every one of these garbage tangents ends up there anyway

Pro Tip: Never make an insightful post in a thread like this one because your respect will just disappear* when it gets moved to RSP[G].

* Or maybe just turn invisible.

The respect won't disappear from your respect count, you will just be unable to receive any more.
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Re: Why I'm quitting Dominion for the foreseeable future (not satire)
« Reply #144 on: July 11, 2018, 09:02:12 pm »
+2

On a (now) unrelated note, I found it much easier to quit previous addictions if I cut myself out of all related communities/forums as well. I recognize that this is hard to do, especially if one has friends there.
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Re: Why I'm quitting Dominion for the foreseeable future (not satire)
« Reply #145 on: July 12, 2018, 02:19:36 am »
+4

On a (now) unrelated note, I found it much easier to quit previous addictions if I cut myself out of all related communities/forums as well. I recognize that this is hard to do, especially if one has friends there.

I know what you mean to say here. But I paid for that membership on coughsyrupfriends.org and I'm not going to just throw 6,42€ away.

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Re: Why I'm quitting Dominion for the foreseeable future (not satire)
« Reply #146 on: July 12, 2018, 05:33:41 am »
0

On a (now) unrelated note, I found it much easier to quit previous addictions if I cut myself out of all related communities/forums as well. I recognize that this is hard to do, especially if one has friends there.

Well, I'm not trying to quit an addiction here, I'm just quitting something that I never really feel like doing, anyway.
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Bomb, Cannon, and many of the Gunpowder cards can strongly effect gameplay, particularly in a destructive way

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Re: Why I'm quitting Dominion for the foreseeable future (not satire)
« Reply #147 on: July 12, 2018, 08:30:08 am »
0

On a (now) unrelated note, I found it much easier to quit previous addictions if I cut myself out of all related communities/forums as well. I recognize that this is hard to do, especially if one has friends there.

I know what you mean to say here. But I paid for that membership on coughsyrupfriends.org and I'm not going to just throw 6,42€ away.

There are all kinds of reasons quitting something might be difficult! The argument is still the same. If you don't want to play a game anymore, the amount you spent doesn't actually matter.
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Re: Why I'm quitting Dominion for the foreseeable future (not satire)
« Reply #148 on: July 12, 2018, 11:18:16 am »
0

Well, I'm not trying to quit an addiction here, I'm just quitting something that I never really feel like doing, anyway.
You're also making sure to tell us all.
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Re: Why I'm quitting Dominion for the foreseeable future (not satire)
« Reply #149 on: July 12, 2018, 12:30:23 pm »
0

On a (now) unrelated note, I found it much easier to quit previous addictions if I cut myself out of all related communities/forums as well. I recognize that this is hard to do, especially if one has friends there.

I know what you mean to say here. But I paid for that membership on coughsyrupfriends.org and I'm not going to just throw 6,42€ away.

There are all kinds of reasons quitting something might be difficult! The argument is still the same. If you don't want to play a game anymore, the amount you spent doesn't actually matter.

My post was for entertainment purposes only.

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Re: Why I'm quitting Dominion for the foreseeable future (not satire)
« Reply #150 on: July 12, 2018, 06:12:53 pm »
+3

Well, I'm not trying to quit an addiction here, I'm just quitting something that I never really feel like doing, anyway.
You're also making sure to tell us all.

Well, yeah. This is the forum for talking about Dominion, so I'm talking about Dominion, specifically the things that I think about it right now.
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silvern

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Re: Why I'm quitting Dominion for the foreseeable future (not satire)
« Reply #151 on: July 12, 2018, 06:58:36 pm »
+4

someone please lock this thread and end my pain
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Re: Why I'm quitting Dominion for the foreseeable future (not satire)
« Reply #152 on: July 12, 2018, 09:04:29 pm »
+2

Well, I'm not trying to quit an addiction here, I'm just quitting something that I never really feel like doing, anyway.
You're also making sure to tell us all.
I interpret "why I'm quitting" announcements as a valiant attempt to combat the inherent response bias in a community almost exclusively consisting of feedback from the people who have remained within it.

Currently I have this thing where I enter the URL for Dominion Online, then remember my subscription is expired, then enter the URL for War of Omens.  Sorry Stef :(
« Last Edit: July 12, 2018, 11:50:40 pm by popsofctown »
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